oil analysis - lots of silicium ?

peter wrote:
I never checked oil I put in
> myself after 10 miles, so I have no reference ... Should it have remained
> clear in my case ?
>

Absolutely not!

The oil will darken as soon as the pump circulates it as it picks up the
left over oil.

The silicone numbers mean nothing without a reference point. You are
chasing ghosts.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
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Hi Steve,

I can only say it was found in three samples with two companies.
And that the particles must be micron sized, because other sizes are not
being considered in the analysis.

It comes down to what's accepted as normal for this engine. I might try to
call Opel and ask their opinion. I'm sure they run oil analysis on
combinations of engine, oil, coolant, petrol ?

Unfortunately I cannot check the cylinder walls, unless I buy an endoscope.
Any other inspections possible ? I took a look under the valve cover, did
not see any particles.

I suspect verifying what's in the oil filter might help.

Am I really chasing ghosts as suggested ?

MTIA again,

Peter

>
> But fresh oil with only 10 (or whatever it was) miles? There's no WAY
> that airborne silicates could elevate the oil silicon contentin *that*
> amount of time unless you were running through a dust storm with NO
> filter and shot rings already. Leftover from the previous fill oil? It
> would ahve had to be a ridiculous concentration. Antifreeze? With no
> moisture content? Nuh-uh.
>
> Something just doesn't add up here...

peter > wrote:
>Hi Steve,
>
>I can only say it was found in three samples with two companies.
>And that the particles must be micron sized, because other sizes are not
>being considered in the analysis.
>
>It comes down to what's accepted as normal for this engine. I might try to
>call Opel and ask their opinion. I'm sure they run oil analysis on
>combinations of engine, oil, coolant, petrol ?
>
>Unfortunately I cannot check the cylinder walls, unless I buy an endoscope.
>Any other inspections possible ? I took a look under the valve cover, did
>not see any particles.
>
>I suspect verifying what's in the oil filter might help.
>
>Am I really chasing ghosts as suggested ?

Maybe. Since you only had 10 miles of running time since the last change,
WHATEVER numbers you got are going to be pretty meaningless. Put 3,000
miles on it and then get an analysis and you will be more apt to see
something useful.

The high count could indeed be residual synthetic oil from some previous
oil change, or some coolant leakage. Or it could be dust. Get a real
count and then you'll at least know whether to worry or not.

Check your air filter and if it looks dirty, change it. Come to think of
it, do that every time you change your oil...
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott,

97 ppm aluminium means there should be some 200-250 mgs in the oil pan. In
oil which ought to be almost completely clean.

I tend to agree with Steve it can not come from the previous oil volume.
What quantity of alu wear material has to be diluted with new oil to obtain
this concentration ?

Thanks,

Peter

"Scott Dorsey" > schreef in bericht
...
> peter > wrote:
> >Hi Steve,
> >
> >I can only say it was found in three samples with two companies.
> >And that the particles must be micron sized, because other sizes are not
> >being considered in the analysis.
> >
> >It comes down to what's accepted as normal for this engine. I might try
to
> >call Opel and ask their opinion. I'm sure they run oil analysis on
> >combinations of engine, oil, coolant, petrol ?
> >
> >Unfortunately I cannot check the cylinder walls, unless I buy an
endoscope.
> >Any other inspections possible ? I took a look under the valve cover, did
> >not see any particles.
> >
> >I suspect verifying what's in the oil filter might help.
> >
> >Am I really chasing ghosts as suggested ?
>
> Maybe. Since you only had 10 miles of running time since the last change,
> WHATEVER numbers you got are going to be pretty meaningless. Put 3,000
> miles on it and then get an analysis and you will be more apt to see
> something useful.
>
> The high count could indeed be residual synthetic oil from some previous
> oil change, or some coolant leakage. Or it could be dust. Get a real
> count and then you'll at least know whether to worry or not.
>
> Check your air filter and if it looks dirty, change it. Come to think of
> it, do that every time you change your oil...
> --scott
>
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"peter" > wrote in message
...
> Scott,
>
> 97 ppm aluminium means there should be some 200-250 mgs in the oil pan. In
> oil which ought to be almost completely clean.
>
> I tend to agree with Steve it can not come from the previous oil volume.
> What quantity of alu wear material has to be diluted with new oil to
obtain
> this concentration ?
>
> Thanks,
>

Usually the engines here hold about 5 quarts, which is roughly 4.7 litres.
At 97 ppm,
that would be about 450 mg, or darn near a half gram...That is a lot.

Something doesnt add up here.
Change the oil and filter, let it run for a few days and repeat the
analysis.

> wrote:
>"peter" > wrote:
>>
>> 97 ppm aluminium means there should be some 200-250 mgs in the oil pan. In
>> oil which ought to be almost completely clean.
>
>Usually the engines here hold about 5 quarts, which is roughly 4.7 litres.
>At 97 ppm,
>that would be about 450 mg, or darn near a half gram...That is a lot.

Right, and remember this is after only a few miles of actual running time.
At this rate, the whole block will have dissoved in a month.

>Something doesnt add up here.
>Change the oil and filter, let it run for a few days and repeat the
>analysis.

More than a few days. Get 1,000 miles on it, minimum.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

i used to be employed by an oil-blending company where many oils were
actually blended and in a sense made. i have seen varous amounts of
liquid silicon poured into this blending process. i have no idea of the
amount but i know that it varies with each oil made. one day while
visiting with the chemist that worked there (a true friggin genius) i
inquired about this and he went through a whole long process of
explanation in which i was as lost as i could be. but i do know that he
told me that the silicon level could not get high enough to harm an
engine.the type of silicon that is being used in the oil is somehow
different from what you and i think of as silicone. i would be more
concerned about the aluminum content than i would the silicon.

Hello,

Thanks for your attention and advice. Indeed, I don't worry about silicon in
the oil. I probably didn't pay much for it. It is the combination with
aluminium - and iron ? - I would like to understand..

The correlation, as HLS suggested, should be established. I'll try to have a
different analysis if it is affordable.
But if the block will be dissolved in a month, I don't intend to run it for
now ...

Sincere thanks,

Peter

plainoldmechanic" > schreef in bericht
oups.com...
> i used to be employed by an oil-blending company where many oils were
> actually blended and in a sense made. i have seen varous amounts of
> liquid silicon poured into this blending process. i have no idea of the
> amount but i know that it varies with each oil made. one day while
> visiting with the chemist that worked there (a true friggin genius) i
> inquired about this and he went through a whole long process of
> explanation in which i was as lost as i could be. but i do know that he
> told me that the silicon level could not get high enough to harm an
> engine.the type of silicon that is being used in the oil is somehow
> different from what you and i think of as silicone. i would be more
> concerned about the aluminum content than i would the silicon.
>

peter wrote:
>
>Considering the oil had only been in the engine for 10 miles, is this
>silicon level and associated wear (?) really from a bad air filter ? For 230
>mg/kg, there should be some 600 mg of silicon in the oil, which seems a
>large quantity.

There's little doubt that dust (silicon) is getting past your air
filter. The presence of iron and aluminium is also typical of the
wear pattern you'd associate with dust abrasion (pistons and cylinder
bores).

It's not unusual to find pin holes in air filter elements, especially
if they've been cleaned with compressed air at some time -- it's the
reason why heavy diesels have safety elements (a second filter on the
engine side of the main element).

I'd be looking for a damaged filter or an air leak on the engine side
of the filter. Is the idle speed normal? Is the filter a reputable
brand?

Can you access a filter wash service? I'm not familiar with the
situation in USA (I'm in Australia) but if filter washing is a common
practice those who do it should also be able to test the element for
holes. At least this would provide some confirmation as to where the
problem lies.

I'm also curious as to why you had the oil tested after only 10 miles
-- presumably you have some reason to suspect a problem?

--
John H

Hello John,

Good point : to the sun, I can see pin holes. It has been cleaned with
compressed air. But on this timescale, I wonder how it can happen that way.

Thanks,

Peter

"John_H" > schreef in bericht
...
> peter wrote:
> >
> >Considering the oil had only been in the engine for 10 miles, is this
> >silicon level and associated wear (?) really from a bad air filter ? For
230
> >mg/kg, there should be some 600 mg of silicon in the oil, which seems a
> >large quantity.
>
> There's little doubt that dust (silicon) is getting past your air
> filter. The presence of iron and aluminium is also typical of the
> wear pattern you'd associate with dust abrasion (pistons and cylinder
> bores).
>
> It's not unusual to find pin holes in air filter elements, especially
> if they've been cleaned with compressed air at some time -- it's the
> reason why heavy diesels have safety elements (a second filter on the
> engine side of the main element).
>
> I'd be looking for a damaged filter or an air leak on the engine side
> of the filter. Is the idle speed normal? Is the filter a reputable
> brand?
>
> Can you access a filter wash service? I'm not familiar with the
> situation in USA (I'm in Australia) but if filter washing is a common
> practice those who do it should also be able to test the element for
> holes. At least this would provide some confirmation as to where the
> problem lies.
>
> I'm also curious as to why you had the oil tested after only 10 miles
> -- presumably you have some reason to suspect a problem?
>
> --
> John H