Opinions on T&C Minivan Brake Rotors & Disc Pads

I'm getting ready to do my wife's front brakes again on the 1999 T&C
Minivan. It has 69K miles and this will be the third time the front pads
and second time the rotors have needed to be replaced. The last couple of
times I've gone with Raybestos Quiet Stop pads and their PG Plus rotors (I
got away with resurfacing them last time around). Despite carefully
torquing all the wheel lugs each and every time the wheels have been
removed, they have not worn particularly well and with just 27K miles the
pulsing has become unbearable, the stopping distance is absolutely terrible,
and the pads are worn down so will need replacing very shortly. (I plan to
do it when I get time come early September...)

I'd like to hear opinions/experiences on the Wagner line of Severe Duty
front disc pads as well as the Raybestos Brute Stop and Super Stop compared
with the current Quiet Stop pads I have been using. Also, any feedback on
the Wagner rotors as compared to the Raybestos rotors would also be
appreciated.

The van sees a lot of short haul stop and go driving and adding to that is
the fact that my wife is pretty hard on the brakes to begin with... To be
clear, I would like to accomplish the following in priority order: 1)
provide minimum stopping distance as this van is too heavy and does not stop
well to begin with, 2) eliminate/minimize the disc squeal when braking, 3)
minimize time before rotor warpage/pulsing, 4) maximize time between pad
changes and rotor resurfacing, and 5) minimize brake dust staining on the
chrome wheels. Thanks in advance to all for their thoughts.

Bob

"Bob Shuman" > wrote in message
...
> I'm getting ready to do my wife's front brakes again on the 1999 T&C
> Minivan. It has 69K miles and this will be the third time the front pads
> and second time the rotors have needed to be replaced.

Bob,

I have always gone with the cheapest pads I can find, yes it generates
brake dust,
yes they wear out quick. A lot quicker than 27k miles. But overall I save
money
doing the brakes a couple more times than people who buy the long life pads.
And
best of all I never have to bother with resurfacing the rotors because the
rotors do
not get chewed up by the cheaper and softer pads. Putting new pads on is a
snap,
it takes longer to change into suitable clothes and jack up the van and
remove the
tires than to change the pads. And I don't care that the wheels are dirtier
with the
brake dust, nobody sees them on the highway anyhow.

At any rate, if you feel your going through front pads faster then you
should I
urge you to also do the rear brakes at the same time. Even though the rear
brakes supposedly only have 10% of the stopping power than the fronts, if
they aren't up to snuff it is incredible how quick the fronts will wear out.
And
if your rears are drum brakes it is really easy to see 50% left on the shoes
and
figure they are fine - when in reality the vehicle side of the shoe is worn
almost
completely out. And also another thing with drums is that drums seem to
wear
into a cone-shape and as a result the braking force gets concentrated near
the
top of the cone not spread equally over the drum - so the effectiveness of
older rear drum brakes is terrible vn with brand new shoes. Whenever you do
drum
brakes you must check them for runout, even if they look fine with no
grooves
theye probably neeed turning.

Ted

Bob Shuman wrote:
> I'm getting ready to do my wife's front brakes again on the 1999 T&C
> Minivan. It has 69K miles and this will be the third time the front pads
> and second time the rotors have needed to be replaced. The last couple of
> times I've gone with Raybestos Quiet Stop pads and their PG Plus rotors (I
> got away with resurfacing them last time around). Despite carefully
> torquing all the wheel lugs each and every time the wheels have been
> removed, they have not worn particularly well and with just 27K miles the
> pulsing has become unbearable, the stopping distance is absolutely terrible,
> and the pads are worn down so will need replacing very shortly. (I plan to
> do it when I get time come early September...)
>
> I'd like to hear opinions/experiences on the Wagner line of Severe Duty
> front disc pads as well as the Raybestos Brute Stop and Super Stop compared
> with the current Quiet Stop pads I have been using. Also, any feedback on
> the Wagner rotors as compared to the Raybestos rotors would also be
> appreciated.
>
> The van sees a lot of short haul stop and go driving and adding to that is
> the fact that my wife is pretty hard on the brakes to begin with... To be
> clear, I would like to accomplish the following in priority order: 1)
> provide minimum stopping distance as this van is too heavy and does not stop
> well to begin with, 2) eliminate/minimize the disc squeal when braking, 3)
> minimize time before rotor warpage/pulsing, 4) maximize time between pad
> changes and rotor resurfacing, and 5) minimize brake dust staining on the
> chrome wheels. Thanks in advance to all for their thoughts.

I think pads are the culprit in many of the situations like this where
we automatically assume the rotor is the problem - even for vibration
that we assume is rotor warp - I think it is often pad filming issues.

Try a set of Performance Friction Z-Rated™ pads.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Are your rear brakes working properly? I have to say I have no problems with
either stopping power or excess wear & tear on our 99 T&C LTD. OUr driving
is more suburban to semi-rural at times but my wife is very hard on the van.
Even towing didn't phase it's stopping power. There may be some other
underlying cause here. I'd start with the backs. As the wheel cylinders have
a bad habit of rusting internally and causing the balance of braking to
shift overly to the fronts.
Larry
"Bob Shuman" > wrote in message
...
> I'm getting ready to do my wife's front brakes again on the 1999 T&C
> Minivan. It has 69K miles and this will be the third time the front pads
> and second time the rotors have needed to be replaced. The last couple of
> times I've gone with Raybestos Quiet Stop pads and their PG Plus rotors (I
> got away with resurfacing them last time around). Despite carefully
> torquing all the wheel lugs each and every time the wheels have been
> removed, they have not worn particularly well and with just 27K miles the
> pulsing has become unbearable, the stopping distance is absolutely
> terrible,
> and the pads are worn down so will need replacing very shortly. (I plan
> to
> do it when I get time come early September...)
>
> I'd like to hear opinions/experiences on the Wagner line of Severe Duty
> front disc pads as well as the Raybestos Brute Stop and Super Stop
> compared
> with the current Quiet Stop pads I have been using. Also, any feedback on
> the Wagner rotors as compared to the Raybestos rotors would also be
> appreciated.
>
> The van sees a lot of short haul stop and go driving and adding to that is
> the fact that my wife is pretty hard on the brakes to begin with... To be
> clear, I would like to accomplish the following in priority order: 1)
> provide minimum stopping distance as this van is too heavy and does not
> stop
> well to begin with, 2) eliminate/minimize the disc squeal when braking, 3)
> minimize time before rotor warpage/pulsing, 4) maximize time between pad
> changes and rotor resurfacing, and 5) minimize brake dust staining on the
> chrome wheels. Thanks in advance to all for their thoughts.
>
> Bob
>
>

Bob Shuman wrote:
> I'm getting ready to do my wife's front brakes again on the 1999 T&C
> Minivan. It has 69K miles and this will be the third time the front pads
> and second time the rotors have needed to be replaced. The last couple of
> times I've gone with Raybestos Quiet Stop pads and their PG Plus rotors (I
> got away with resurfacing them last time around). Despite carefully
> torquing all the wheel lugs each and every time the wheels have been
> removed, they have not worn particularly well and with just 27K miles the
> pulsing has become unbearable, the stopping distance is absolutely terrible,
> and the pads are worn down so will need replacing very shortly. (I plan to
> do it when I get time come early September...)
>
> I'd like to hear opinions/experiences on the Wagner line of Severe Duty
> front disc pads as well as the Raybestos Brute Stop and Super Stop compared
> with the current Quiet Stop pads I have been using. Also, any feedback on
> the Wagner rotors as compared to the Raybestos rotors would also be
> appreciated.
>
> The van sees a lot of short haul stop and go driving and adding to that is
> the fact that my wife is pretty hard on the brakes to begin with... To be
> clear, I would like to accomplish the following in priority order: 1)
> provide minimum stopping distance as this van is too heavy and does not stop
> well to begin with, 2) eliminate/minimize the disc squeal when braking, 3)
> minimize time before rotor warpage/pulsing, 4) maximize time between pad
> changes and rotor resurfacing, and 5) minimize brake dust staining on the
> chrome wheels. Thanks in advance to all for their thoughts.

Unfortunately, I didn't replace my pads and rotors last time my van
needed service as it was in for inspection so I told the garage to go
ahead and do the work. I don't know which manufacturer of parts they
used specifically, but I know they bought both rotors and pads at the
local NAPA shop. I'm guessing NAPA has a range of parts so I realize
that doesn't narrow it down for you.

These parts are holding up better than the previous OEM parts did. No
pulsing in the pedal after more than 20,000 miles and the pads look to
have at least 70% of the material left. And the braking performance is
very good.

I think the only solution to your problem is to teach your wife that the
brake pedal is a more like a rheostat than a switch. She doesn't need
to brake at 100% authority at every stop light. She can begin to coast
to a stop when the light turns red and only brake towards the end. :-)

To help encourage this, give her the bill for the new brakes and tell
her to think about the nice candle lit dinner this could have bought at
your local fancy restaurant!

Matt

Bill,

Who makes these performance pads? Are they quiet or will they squeal (my
wife will make me take them off if they are noisy.) Thanks.

Bob

"Bill Putney" > wrote in message
...
> I think pads are the culprit in many of the situations like this where
> we automatically assume the rotor is the problem - even for vibration
> that we assume is rotor warp - I think it is often pad filming issues.
>
> Try a set of Performance Friction Z-Rated™ pads.

Matt, Thanks for the response. My local NAPA offers Raybestos, Wagner, and
Taiwanese import white box rotors. I went with Raybestos based on previous
advice/recommendations in this newsgroup and they did fine from a warpage
standpoint for the first set of pads. I had them resurfaced and now they
are giving the trouble with the second set so that is why this time, even
though they could probably get resurfaced, I will go for replacement again.
Was just hoping Wagner might be a better choice or possibly might get
different results with different braking material/pads.

And, yes, I know technique is part of the problem here, but there is no
chance this will change with any amount of "instruction" or "coercion".

Bob

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Unfortunately, I didn't replace my pads and rotors last time my van
> needed service as it was in for inspection so I told the garage to go
> ahead and do the work. I don't know which manufacturer of parts they
> used specifically, but I know they bought both rotors and pads at the
> local NAPA shop. I'm guessing NAPA has a range of parts so I realize
> that doesn't narrow it down for you.
>
> These parts are holding up better than the previous OEM parts did. No
> pulsing in the pedal after more than 20,000 miles and the pads look to
> have at least 70% of the material left. And the braking performance is
> very good.

Everything looks fine mechanically in the rears, and they are adjusted up
such that the emergency/parking brake works fine and stops the vehicle from
slower speed tests. I always thought it was just not proportioned properly
directly from the factory.

Bob

"jdoe" > wrote in message
news:3MXOe.274148$x96.236208@attbi_s72...
> Are your rear brakes working properly? I have to say I have no problems
with
> either stopping power or excess wear & tear on our 99 T&C LTD. OUr driving
> is more suburban to semi-rural at times but my wife is very hard on the
van.
> Even towing didn't phase it's stopping power. There may be some other
> underlying cause here. I'd start with the backs. As the wheel cylinders
have
> a bad habit of rusting internally and causing the balance of braking to
> shift overly to the fronts.

Ted,

Thanks for the insight on your alternative strategy. On my T&C, first, the
27K was a typo, as it has now been just 17K miles. Based on the remaining
thickness, I could probably get another 5-8K miles out of them, but the
warpage is too bad so they will need to get done sooner. I have averaged
about 23K per disc pad set on the fronts.

As to the rear brake shoes, I got 51.6K out of those and they still look
near new. I did turn the drums at that time. I do believe the front brakes
do about 70% of the stopping on this van.

Bob

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
> I have always gone with the cheapest pads I can find, yes it generates
> brake dust,
> yes they wear out quick. A lot quicker than 27k miles. But overall I
save
> money
> doing the brakes a couple more times than people who buy the long life
pads.
> And
> best of all I never have to bother with resurfacing the rotors because the
> rotors do
> not get chewed up by the cheaper and softer pads. Putting new pads on is
a
> snap,
> it takes longer to change into suitable clothes and jack up the van and
> remove the
> tires than to change the pads. And I don't care that the wheels are
dirtier
> with the
> brake dust, nobody sees them on the highway anyhow.
>
> At any rate, if you feel your going through front pads faster then you
> should I
> urge you to also do the rear brakes at the same time.

Performance Friction is the manufacturer.

http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/about_pfc.htm

http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/pad_type.htm

Unfortunately their web site is no help in finding the Z-Rated part for
a particular vehicle - best to call them. In playing with their parts
identifier feature for my car, which I know they make the Z-Rated for
(they're on my car now), only their carbon metallics seem to come up.

I have not had a bit of noise from them on my Concorde.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')


Bob Shuman wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Who makes these performance pads? Are they quiet or will they squeal (my
> wife will make me take them off if they are noisy.) Thanks.
>
> Bob
>
> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I think pads are the culprit in many of the situations like this where
>>we automatically assume the rotor is the problem - even for vibration
>>that we assume is rotor warp - I think it is often pad filming issues.
>>
>>Try a set of Performance Friction Z-Rated™ pads.