Toyota struggles to stop runaway crisis

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:27:30 -0500, John Kester >
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 13:16:40 -0700, Ashton Crusher >
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 11:33:32 -0500, John Kester >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Ford murdered a bunch of its customers by not recalling exploding Ford
>>>Pintos even though they knew about them, because on the accounting
>>>books it looked cheaper to absorb the cost of the burn lawsuits than
>>>to do a recall. Nice.
>>
>>
>>That is completely false. The only "accounting" was in response to a
>>request by the gvt and using gvt supplied dollar figures. The pintos
>>were no more prone to exploding then any other car of the day. If
>>Ford is guilty murdering their customers then so are ALL the other car
>>markers of the time.
>
>You are tragically misinformed. There is a reason that this
>particular case is discussed in every Business Ethics college textbook
>written in the last 30 years. Ford was aware that rear-impact
>collisions could ignite the gas tank, and there are written and
>recorded meetings where they determined a re-design was too expensive,
>and there are documents showing quantitative analysis of cost of
>lawsuits versus redesign. Know what you're talking about before you
>dispute such well documented facts, at least do a little research
>before spouting off and making a fool of yourself.
>
>Whether or not Ford has done something quite so evil since, I doubt
>it.. the publicity around that one was quite high.


there was nothing inherently dangerous about the pinto. It was
statistically just as safe as any other average car on the road. ANY
car can be made safer, that's a meaningless yardstick to apply. You
can CHOOSE to believe whatever you want.

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:00:00 -0500, Hachiroku ???? >
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:55:59 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>
>> If you did, than I could not drift away, even if you did not properly
>> engage the shifter into the PARK position, as was the actual cause.
>
>
>YABUT!
>
>How could you even forget about the Ford recall for transmissions?
>They talked it to death almost as much as the currect Toyota recall.
>
>However, 'talked to death' is not a good phrase to use. Hundreds were
>killed and thousands injured thanks to Ford NOT fixing the transmissions,
>but issuing a sticker for the dash instead.
>
>You want to make such a big deal about the Toyota recall. So far, I don't
>think anyone has died yet from the sticking pedal, and Toyota is fixing
>the problem.


2500 accidents, 12 deaths, or something like that.

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 15:36:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:00:00 -0500, Hachiroku ???? > wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:55:59 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>>
>>> If you did, than I could not drift away, even if you did not properly
>>> engage the shifter into the PARK position, as was the actual cause.
>>
>>
>>YABUT!
>>
>>How could you even forget about the Ford recall for transmissions? They
>>talked it to death almost as much as the currect Toyota recall.
>>
>>However, 'talked to death' is not a good phrase to use. Hundreds were
>>killed and thousands injured thanks to Ford NOT fixing the transmissions,
>>but issuing a sticker for the dash instead.
>>
>>You want to make such a big deal about the Toyota recall. So far, I don't
>>think anyone has died yet from the sticking pedal, and Toyota is fixing
>>the problem.
>
>
> 2500 accidents, 12 deaths, or something like that.

Kinda pales compared with over 300 deaths and thousands of injuries for a
transmission Ford didn't want to (and DIDN'T) fix...

Ashton Crusher wrote:

>
> there was nothing inherently dangerous about the pinto. It was
> statistically just as safe as any other average car on the road.

No that is not at all true. It was according to NHTSA no more dangerous than
other cars in the same class. It was (also according to NHTSA) considerably
more dangerous than the average car on the road. It has been estimated that
500 people were burned to death that would not have died if they had been in
an an average car when the accident occurred. The average car on the road at
that time was a tank and the occupants rarely suffered any injuries at all
when another car plowed into the rear at 35 miles an hour.

The problem was that Detroit designed and built compact cars not with the
goal of creating an enduring market for compact cars, but with an eye to
destroying the market for small cars. As a result of this philosophy there
was about a 20 year period where the compact cars Detroit built were just one
disaster after another.

-jim



> ANY
> car can be made safer, that's a meaningless yardstick to apply. You
> can CHOOSE to believe whatever you want.

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 04:26:37 -0800, SMS wrote:

>
> No doubt Toyota decided that the non-Denso part was going to be cheaper,
> and they used it instead of the part used in Japan.

No, it has to do with "US content".
The more US parts, the more they could say was US content.
I think foreign manufacturers get tax breaks if they use US parts, so the
more parts, the more the incentive. I'm not sure about that, but I believe
it works that way.

They also avoid any tariffs imposed by the amount of Domestic content.

All I can say...glad I bought a Scion. They're ALL made in Japan...

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 15:36:12 -0700, Ashton Crusher >
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:27:30 -0500, John Kester >
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 13:16:40 -0700, Ashton Crusher >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 11:33:32 -0500, John Kester >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ford murdered a bunch of its customers by not recalling exploding Ford
>>>>Pintos even though they knew about them, because on the accounting
>>>>books it looked cheaper to absorb the cost of the burn lawsuits than
>>>>to do a recall. Nice.
>>>
>>>
>>>That is completely false. The only "accounting" was in response to a
>>>request by the gvt and using gvt supplied dollar figures. The pintos
>>>were no more prone to exploding then any other car of the day. If
>>>Ford is guilty murdering their customers then so are ALL the other car
>>>markers of the time.
>>
>>You are tragically misinformed. There is a reason that this
>>particular case is discussed in every Business Ethics college textbook
>>written in the last 30 years. Ford was aware that rear-impact
>>collisions could ignite the gas tank, and there are written and
>>recorded meetings where they determined a re-design was too expensive,
>>and there are documents showing quantitative analysis of cost of
>>lawsuits versus redesign. Know what you're talking about before you
>>dispute such well documented facts, at least do a little research
>>before spouting off and making a fool of yourself.
>>
>>Whether or not Ford has done something quite so evil since, I doubt
>>it.. the publicity around that one was quite high.
>
>
>there was nothing inherently dangerous about the pinto. It was
>statistically just as safe as any other average car on the road. ANY
>car can be made safer, that's a meaningless yardstick to apply. You
>can CHOOSE to believe whatever you want.

Everything I have said is a fact that can be substantiated by you or
anyone else. You are the one who is uninformed about the Pinto
situation and has chosen your own belief over the truth.

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:26:18 -0500, Hachiroku ???? >
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 15:36:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:00:00 -0500, Hachiroku ???? > wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:55:59 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you did, than I could not drift away, even if you did not properly
>>>> engage the shifter into the PARK position, as was the actual cause.
>>>
>>>
>>>YABUT!
>>>
>>>How could you even forget about the Ford recall for transmissions? They
>>>talked it to death almost as much as the currect Toyota recall.
>>>
>>>However, 'talked to death' is not a good phrase to use. Hundreds were
>>>killed and thousands injured thanks to Ford NOT fixing the transmissions,
>>>but issuing a sticker for the dash instead.
>>>
>>>You want to make such a big deal about the Toyota recall. So far, I don't
>>>think anyone has died yet from the sticking pedal, and Toyota is fixing
>>>the problem.
>>
>>
>> 2500 accidents, 12 deaths, or something like that.
>
>Kinda pales compared with over 300 deaths and thousands of injuries for a
>transmission Ford didn't want to (and DIDN'T) fix...
>
>

Do you think that makes the 12 dead people feel any better?

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 21:49:52 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:26:18 -0500, Hachiroku ???? > wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 15:36:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:00:00 -0500, Hachiroku ???? >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:55:59 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you did, than I could not drift away, even if you did not properly
>>>>> engage the shifter into the PARK position, as was the actual cause.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>YABUT!
>>>>
>>>>How could you even forget about the Ford recall for transmissions? They
>>>>talked it to death almost as much as the currect Toyota recall.
>>>>
>>>>However, 'talked to death' is not a good phrase to use. Hundreds were
>>>>killed and thousands injured thanks to Ford NOT fixing the
>>>>transmissions, but issuing a sticker for the dash instead.
>>>>
>>>>You want to make such a big deal about the Toyota recall. So far, I
>>>>don't think anyone has died yet from the sticking pedal, and Toyota is
>>>>fixing the problem.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2500 accidents, 12 deaths, or something like that.
>>
>>Kinda pales compared with over 300 deaths and thousands of injuries for a
>>transmission Ford didn't want to (and DIDN'T) fix...
>>
>>
>>
> Do you think that makes the 12 dead people feel any better?

Not at all. But Toyota is fixing the problem. Wonder if they could have
gotten away with printing 2.3 million stickers...

"SMS" > wrote in message
...
> john wrote:
>> "Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota
>> Motor
>> Corp.
>>
>> Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
>> vehicles is in tatters.
>
> Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with
> an automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator
> pedals is only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for
> other manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more
> quickly. Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.

Are you sure? Are you counting the floor mat, pedal reshaping, and
pedal control shim as three separate recalls or one?

Ford "largest recall in history" is for the stupid cruise control
brake switch - which Ford started using becasue of sudden acceleration
accusations. I think you probably could break it down into at least
four different recalls depending ont he vehicle line since the
implementation varied from line to line (some had constant power to
the switch, some didn't, some came from the factory with a fuse, some
didn't etc.). In the end Ford just recalled them all to make sure no
one could complain they were left out (even though there is little
evidence there was a problem outside of the initial relatively small
batch of bad switches Ford and NHTSA identified 3 or 4 years ago).
What Ford did would be the same as Toyota recalling everything they
have sold in the US for fifteen years and replacing all the
acceleartor pedals, even thought we all know only a few are actually a
problem. I think Ford just wanted to make sure the cruise control
switch was permanently out of the press. Probably a good move. If
Toyota had handled the problem with the accelrator pedals this way in
2007, they probably wouldn't be in the press today. Sometimes you just
have to bite the bullet and admit you screwed up.

Ed

"Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2@lycos,com> wrote in
:

>
>
> Perhaps in the US, but you neglected to point out that Toyota world
> wide total number of recalls for their "defects" is 5.4 MILLION,
> involving over 20 deaths and an untold number of injuries.
>


I thought it was 8.1 million.

And that "20 deaths" figure has not yet been investigated to determine
whether or not these are normal "pedal misapplication" or pedal
malfunction.

So far, the US governemnt officially recognizes 5 deaths, 4 of them
involving a single incident (San Diego cop). And that wasn't even Toyota's
fault, but the fault of the cop and the dealer.

That leaves 1 death, versus over 42,000 total traffic deaths each year in
the US alone. One death is one death too many, but it's hardly an epidemic
for which Toyota should be hung from the nearest tree.

--
Tegger