Does this sound like a bad starter?

A few weeks ago, our '94 Caravan began having some problems.

When you'd turn the key to start it, you'd hear a click and nothing would
happen. The next time you did it, it would start and run fine.

Within the last week, it got worse. You'd turn the key 3-5 times and nothing
would happen then it would finally start on the next try and run fine.

Now you turn the key, here a click and it doesn't start no matter how many
times you do it.

This has a fairly new battery and I can't find any obvious corrosion on the
terminals and any loose wires.

Does this sound like the starter went out? Could it be the solenoid? If so,
is the solenoid expensive to have a repair shop replace it? I'm guessing it
wouldn't be a spark plug problem because it runs fine once it starts.

This van has 205,000 miles on it and we don't want to put any major money
into it. If it's the starter, we'll probably junk it because that would cost
several hundred to replace. But if it's something we can have fixed for
cheap, we'd probably do it.

Anyone have any ideas on if it is a bad starter or not?

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In article >,
"Dave K." > wrote:

> A few weeks ago, our '94 Caravan began having some problems.
>
> When you'd turn the key to start it, you'd hear a click and nothing would
> happen. The next time you did it, it would start and run fine.
>
> Within the last week, it got worse. You'd turn the key 3-5 times and nothing
> would happen then it would finally start on the next try and run fine.
>
> Now you turn the key, here a click and it doesn't start no matter how many
> times you do it.

Sounds a lot like bad wires, or a failinf/failed solenoid to me.
Something isn't making contact like it should when you turn the key.
Could be the keyswitch itself, one (or more) of the wires, the solenoid,
the relay that energizes the solenoid, or the starter itself. Since you
had a "gradual failure" where it went from "turn the key, it starts" to
"turn the key several times, then it starts", to "turn the key, but it
won't start", I'd be looking at ruling out the starter itself.
>
> This has a fairly new battery and I can't find any obvious corrosion on the
> terminals and any loose wires.
>
> Does this sound like the starter went out? Could it be the solenoid? If so,
> is the solenoid expensive to have a repair shop replace it? I'm guessing it
> wouldn't be a spark plug problem because it runs fine once it starts.
>
> This van has 205,000 miles on it and we don't want to put any major money
> into it. If it's the starter, we'll probably junk it because that would cost
> several hundred to replace.

Why on earth would it cost several hundred bucks to replace a
starter?!?!?!? Heck, if you're going to junk the ride because you don't
want to replace the starter, let me know where to show up so I can drag
it home with me. I'll cheerfully fix the starter, then sell it to
somebody who can get some use out of it.

Obviously, pricing is going to vary depending on vehicle, but I can buy
a new starter for my ride for under $70, or a reman for under $50, and
changing it out is the work of about 15-20 minutes, not counting
jacking-up and cleanup time. We're not talking rocket science... Two,
maybe three bolts, one terminal nut, and probably either another
terminal nut, or a "flag" connector. Only way I can see even the most
vicious rip-off artist getting away with charging "several hundred" for
such a dead-easy job is if it's one of those rare cases where getting to
the starter requires pulling the engine.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

Thanks for the reply, Don. I'm no mechanic (as you can probably tell), so
it's good you pointed out that a starter shouldn't cost that much to
replace. Our local repair shop did quote us $200+ as the avg. cost of
replacing a starter in that type of van, but when I look in my Haynes repair
manual, you're right ... it doesn't look that difficult.

Thanks for the tips!!

Dave K.

>
> Why on earth would it cost several hundred bucks to replace a
> starter?!?!?!? Heck, if you're going to junk the ride because you don't
> want to replace the starter, let me know where to show up so I can drag
> it home with me. I'll cheerfully fix the starter, then sell it to
> somebody who can get some use out of it.
>
> Obviously, pricing is going to vary depending on vehicle, but I can buy
> a new starter for my ride for under $70, or a reman for under $50, and
> changing it out is the work of about 15-20 minutes, not counting
> jacking-up and cleanup time. We're not talking rocket science... Two,
> maybe three bolts, one terminal nut, and probably either another
> terminal nut, or a "flag" connector. Only way I can see even the most
> vicious rip-off artist getting away with charging "several hundred" for
> such a dead-easy job is if it's one of those rare cases where getting to
> the starter requires pulling the engine.
>
> --
> Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21,
2004.
> I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get
no
> response, see <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> Short
> form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the
subject.

In article >,
"Dave K." > wrote:

> Thanks for the reply, Don. I'm no mechanic (as you can probably tell), so
> it's good you pointed out that a starter shouldn't cost that much to
> replace. Our local repair shop did quote us $200+ as the avg. cost of
> replacing a starter in that type of van, but when I look in my Haynes repair
> manual, you're right ... it doesn't look that difficult.

That's 'cause it isn't that difficult on most vehicles. There are a few
here and there that require you to go through a diluted version of hell
if you want to get to the starter (maybe steering gear or
axle/suspension components in the way, maybe such a tight squeeze that
there's no route to "the outside world" to remove/install a starter
through, and so on) but in the *VAST* majority of cases, probably
99.999% of them, swapping a starter is kiddy-play. Heck, now that I
think about it, a starter swap (on a '78 Honda Civic) may have been my
very first "Look, Ma! I done did it all by my widdle self! Aincha proud
of yer boy?" vehicle repair more challenging than changing a tire or
swapping spark plugs. Did it in the back yard with one socket, an
extension, and a ratchet one afternoon. Took me about 3-4 hours from
start to finish, but after factoring out all the "OK, I'm a complete
rookie, so I'm going to be *TOTALLY* paranoid and do everything but draw
a picture every time I turn a bolt more than half a revolution" overkill
that I put into the task, it probably didn't take more than half an hour
or so to actually *DO* the job.

Nowdays, the car I drive is nice and friendly for "Joe Shadetree" to
work on, and if I needed to swap the starter, the total time would
likely be something like 20 minutes from "Well, I really ought to get
going on doing it" to "Now that I'm done, where's the can of Go-Jo
hiding? My hands are filthy!"

But like I said in the other message, it sounds to me more like a bad
switch/connection/wire than the starter itself being toast. "No loose
wires" *DOES NOT* equal "good connection" - It doesn't take much "crud",
not even enough that you can see it, building up on a connection to
block 12 volts of DC well enough to give the sort of symptoms you're
describing. And once you get the first occurrence, the nature of
electricity, moisture, and corrosion working together can quickly take
you from "starts first time every time" to "I can play with the key all
day, and all it will do is click".

There are a couple of ways to check that theory. First one involves
making certain you've got a good battery-to-starter connection - First,
pull your *NEGATIVE* battery cable off the battery. Clean the cable end,
and the battery post well. *DO NOT* reconnect the cable yet. Now do the
same thing with the positive cable/post. But this time, hook it back up
when you're done. (Leave the negative cable disconnected for a while
longer - I'll let ya know when to hook it back up! ) Now get under
the car (you'll probably need to jack it up) and trace the positive
battery cable to the starter. If it's like the starter connection in
most vehicles I've encountered, the battery cable will be connected to a
large post (often copper, but nothing says it can't be steel) on the
starter, held down by a nut that might be either copper or steel. Remove
that nut, remove the cable, and hit both the end of the cable and the
connector with a wire brush, steel wool, or similar. If there are any
washers under the nut or under the wire, give them a quick once-over
with the brush/wool while you've got things pulled apart. Now put the
cable back on and crank the nut down nice and snug. (Don't go crazy
tightening it - "nice and snug" is adequate - often, the "other end" of
that post isn't connected to anything particularly solid, and it's all
too possible to fatally damage the innards of the starter by reefing the
nut down too tight and causing the stud to turn)

While you're down there, look over the starter for a second wire
(probably rather small) connecting to it. Some vehicles bolt that small
wire on, other vehicles have a quick-disconnect of some sort. Whichever
kind you have, make sure that the end of the wire and the place it
connects are clean - wire brush and/or steel wool both parts until
they're nice and shiny - then put that connection back together.

*NOW* you can hook up the negative cable again. Try the key and see if
the situation has improved. If not, my suspicion would turn to the
switch, but there's still a diagnostic or two to be done.

Turn the key off, set the parking brake, chock the wheels that are on
the ground, and make *ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN* the vehicle *IS NOT* in gear.
Make sure you've got the vehicle up on jackstands or other support that
can handle the weight so the vehicle can't fall on you. Find about a 10
inch length of medium-thick wire - If you've got a chunk of insulated
Romex laying around, that's just about perfect. If not, find yourself a
piece of wire that's got a full coat of insulation, with the wire inside
about as thick as a typical coat-hanger. Strip half an inch or so of the
ends so you've got something to make contact with, then head under the
car. Use the wire to short from the battery cable connection on the
starter to the "small wire" connection. That should get the starter to
crank the engine over. If it does crank, you've determined that the
starter isn't at fault, and you need to be looking elsewhere (like at
the ignition switch or wiring between there and the starter) for the
true source of the problem. Note: if it cranks, *DO NOT* keep the
starter cranking with the wire longer than needed to determine whether
it's functional or not - The wire may get hot enough to burn you if you
hold it there long enough. Exactly how long "long enough" is will depend
on several things that I can't be sure do or don't apply to your
particular vehicle, so just take my word that it's a bad idea to hold it
that way for any longer than needed to verify starter
operation/no-operation.

At this point, you know one of two things: The starter is functional,
but not getting juice through the convential circuit, or something about
it is broken.

Next step is deciding if it's the solenoid or the starter proper - By
jumping to the "small wire" conenction from the battery cable, you
bypassed the key and all the wiring between it and the starter. If the
starter made a "click" or similar "something snapped shut" noise, but
didn't spin, you can try the next step:

Next to the post where the battery cable connects, often separated from
the battery connection by a small "wall" between them, there should be a
second large bolt/post, nearly identical to the post the battery cable
is connected to. Use your jumper wire to jump from the battery connector
post to the "other" post. The starter should spin (but might not engage
the pinion gear with the flywheel, which would keep it from actually
cranking the engine) The same warning about the wire getting hot applies
here, only a lot more so... With the first test, you weren't trying to
jump large amounts of amperage. With this one, your wire is probably
going to be trying to carry a huge amount of current, so it will almost
certainly heat up quick. Only hold the connection long enough to verify
"does/doesn't spin up" status.

If it does spin, the starter itself is OK, but the solenoid may be
toast. A new solenoid is generally a good bit cheaper than a new
starter, and it's also an easy swap. If you've got (or can borrow) a VOM
(Volt/Ohm Meter), you can do a crude check on the solenoid's health by
setting the meter to about the 10Kohms range, disconnecting the "small
wire" from the starter, putting one lead of the meter on the "small
wire" connector, and the other lead somewhere on the engine block or
starter case. Resistance should be relatively low - a couple thousand
ohms, absolute tops, with high tens of ohms, or low hundreds being
reasonable. If it's high (or worse, shows an "open"), then you've
definitely got a bad solenoid that you're going to need to replace. If
everything checks out functional underneath, you're looking at a wiring
problem, or an ignition switch gone bad.

But I figure I've given you enough of an information overload for now...


Holler if you want more

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

Wow, thanks for all the details. That'll keep me busy.

BTW: I was curious and called some other shops. Seems like the $200+ price
for a new starter is on the low end here in suburban Minneapolis. Called 3
other places and they were higher, some in the $300+ range.

But with your instructions below, I shouldn't need a shop now. Thanks!

--
NOTE: Please delete the word "REMOVE" from my e-mail address when replying.
This is a spam guard.
"Don Bruder" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dave K." > wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the reply, Don. I'm no mechanic (as you can probably tell),
so
> > it's good you pointed out that a starter shouldn't cost that much to
> > replace. Our local repair shop did quote us $200+ as the avg. cost of
> > replacing a starter in that type of van, but when I look in my Haynes
repair
> > manual, you're right ... it doesn't look that difficult.
>
> That's 'cause it isn't that difficult on most vehicles. There are a few
> here and there that require you to go through a diluted version of hell
> if you want to get to the starter (maybe steering gear or
> axle/suspension components in the way, maybe such a tight squeeze that
> there's no route to "the outside world" to remove/install a starter
> through, and so on) but in the *VAST* majority of cases, probably
> 99.999% of them, swapping a starter is kiddy-play. Heck, now that I
> think about it, a starter swap (on a '78 Honda Civic) may have been my
> very first "Look, Ma! I done did it all by my widdle self! Aincha proud
> of yer boy?" vehicle repair more challenging than changing a tire or
> swapping spark plugs. Did it in the back yard with one socket, an
> extension, and a ratchet one afternoon. Took me about 3-4 hours from
> start to finish, but after factoring out all the "OK, I'm a complete
> rookie, so I'm going to be *TOTALLY* paranoid and do everything but draw
> a picture every time I turn a bolt more than half a revolution" overkill
> that I put into the task, it probably didn't take more than half an hour
> or so to actually *DO* the job.
>
> Nowdays, the car I drive is nice and friendly for "Joe Shadetree" to
> work on, and if I needed to swap the starter, the total time would
> likely be something like 20 minutes from "Well, I really ought to get
> going on doing it" to "Now that I'm done, where's the can of Go-Jo
> hiding? My hands are filthy!"
>
> But like I said in the other message, it sounds to me more like a bad
> switch/connection/wire than the starter itself being toast. "No loose
> wires" *DOES NOT* equal "good connection" - It doesn't take much "crud",
> not even enough that you can see it, building up on a connection to
> block 12 volts of DC well enough to give the sort of symptoms you're
> describing. And once you get the first occurrence, the nature of
> electricity, moisture, and corrosion working together can quickly take
> you from "starts first time every time" to "I can play with the key all
> day, and all it will do is click".
>
> There are a couple of ways to check that theory. First one involves
> making certain you've got a good battery-to-starter connection - First,
> pull your *NEGATIVE* battery cable off the battery. Clean the cable end,
> and the battery post well. *DO NOT* reconnect the cable yet. Now do the
> same thing with the positive cable/post. But this time, hook it back up
> when you're done. (Leave the negative cable disconnected for a while
> longer - I'll let ya know when to hook it back up! ) Now get under
> the car (you'll probably need to jack it up) and trace the positive
> battery cable to the starter. If it's like the starter connection in
> most vehicles I've encountered, the battery cable will be connected to a
> large post (often copper, but nothing says it can't be steel) on the
> starter, held down by a nut that might be either copper or steel. Remove
> that nut, remove the cable, and hit both the end of the cable and the
> connector with a wire brush, steel wool, or similar. If there are any
> washers under the nut or under the wire, give them a quick once-over
> with the brush/wool while you've got things pulled apart. Now put the
> cable back on and crank the nut down nice and snug. (Don't go crazy
> tightening it - "nice and snug" is adequate - often, the "other end" of
> that post isn't connected to anything particularly solid, and it's all
> too possible to fatally damage the innards of the starter by reefing the
> nut down too tight and causing the stud to turn)
>
> While you're down there, look over the starter for a second wire
> (probably rather small) connecting to it. Some vehicles bolt that small
> wire on, other vehicles have a quick-disconnect of some sort. Whichever
> kind you have, make sure that the end of the wire and the place it
> connects are clean - wire brush and/or steel wool both parts until
> they're nice and shiny - then put that connection back together.
>
> *NOW* you can hook up the negative cable again. Try the key and see if
> the situation has improved. If not, my suspicion would turn to the
> switch, but there's still a diagnostic or two to be done.
>
> Turn the key off, set the parking brake, chock the wheels that are on
> the ground, and make *ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN* the vehicle *IS NOT* in gear.
> Make sure you've got the vehicle up on jackstands or other support that
> can handle the weight so the vehicle can't fall on you. Find about a 10
> inch length of medium-thick wire - If you've got a chunk of insulated
> Romex laying around, that's just about perfect. If not, find yourself a
> piece of wire that's got a full coat of insulation, with the wire inside
> about as thick as a typical coat-hanger. Strip half an inch or so of the
> ends so you've got something to make contact with, then head under the
> car. Use the wire to short from the battery cable connection on the
> starter to the "small wire" connection. That should get the starter to
> crank the engine over. If it does crank, you've determined that the
> starter isn't at fault, and you need to be looking elsewhere (like at
> the ignition switch or wiring between there and the starter) for the
> true source of the problem. Note: if it cranks, *DO NOT* keep the
> starter cranking with the wire longer than needed to determine whether
> it's functional or not - The wire may get hot enough to burn you if you
> hold it there long enough. Exactly how long "long enough" is will depend
> on several things that I can't be sure do or don't apply to your
> particular vehicle, so just take my word that it's a bad idea to hold it
> that way for any longer than needed to verify starter
> operation/no-operation.
>
> At this point, you know one of two things: The starter is functional,
> but not getting juice through the convential circuit, or something about
> it is broken.
>
> Next step is deciding if it's the solenoid or the starter proper - By
> jumping to the "small wire" conenction from the battery cable, you
> bypassed the key and all the wiring between it and the starter. If the
> starter made a "click" or similar "something snapped shut" noise, but
> didn't spin, you can try the next step:
>
> Next to the post where the battery cable connects, often separated from
> the battery connection by a small "wall" between them, there should be a
> second large bolt/post, nearly identical to the post the battery cable
> is connected to. Use your jumper wire to jump from the battery connector
> post to the "other" post. The starter should spin (but might not engage
> the pinion gear with the flywheel, which would keep it from actually
> cranking the engine) The same warning about the wire getting hot applies
> here, only a lot more so... With the first test, you weren't trying to
> jump large amounts of amperage. With this one, your wire is probably
> going to be trying to carry a huge amount of current, so it will almost
> certainly heat up quick. Only hold the connection long enough to verify
> "does/doesn't spin up" status.
>
> If it does spin, the starter itself is OK, but the solenoid may be
> toast. A new solenoid is generally a good bit cheaper than a new
> starter, and it's also an easy swap. If you've got (or can borrow) a VOM
> (Volt/Ohm Meter), you can do a crude check on the solenoid's health by
> setting the meter to about the 10Kohms range, disconnecting the "small
> wire" from the starter, putting one lead of the meter on the "small
> wire" connector, and the other lead somewhere on the engine block or
> starter case. Resistance should be relatively low - a couple thousand
> ohms, absolute tops, with high tens of ohms, or low hundreds being
> reasonable. If it's high (or worse, shows an "open"), then you've
> definitely got a bad solenoid that you're going to need to replace. If
> everything checks out functional underneath, you're looking at a wiring
> problem, or an ignition switch gone bad.
>
> But I figure I've given you enough of an information overload for now...
>
>
> Holler if you want more
>
> --
> Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21,
2004.
> I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get
no
> response, see <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> Short
> form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the
subject.

Don Bruder wrote in rec.autos.misc

> In article >,
> "Dave K." > wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the reply, Don. I'm no mechanic (as you can probably tell),
>> so it's good you pointed out that a starter shouldn't cost that much to
>> replace. Our local repair shop did quote us $200+ as the avg. cost of
>> replacing a starter in that type of van, but when I look in my Haynes
>> repair manual, you're right ... it doesn't look that difficult.
>
> That's 'cause it isn't that difficult on most vehicles. There are a few
> here and there that require you to go through a diluted version of hell
> if you want to get to the starter (maybe steering gear or
> axle/suspension components in the way, maybe such a tight squeeze that
> there's no route to "the outside world" to remove/install a starter
> through, and so on) but in the *VAST* majority of cases, probably
> 99.999% of them, swapping a starter is kiddy-play. Heck, now that I
> think about it, a starter swap (on a '78 Honda Civic) may have been my
> very first "Look, Ma! I done did it all by my widdle self! Aincha proud
> of yer boy?" vehicle repair more challenging than changing a tire or
> swapping spark plugs. Did it in the back yard with one socket, an
> extension, and a ratchet one afternoon. Took me about 3-4 hours from
> start to finish, but after factoring out all the "OK, I'm a complete
> rookie, so I'm going to be *TOTALLY* paranoid and do everything but draw
> a picture every time I turn a bolt more than half a revolution" overkill
> that I put into the task, it probably didn't take more than half an hour
> or so to actually *DO* the job.

Nice set of instructions. I just want to say that I know of no way to
get dirty faster than changing a starter. Unless you have a rack you
will be laying under the car. You will be putting your hand in areas
that have never seen anything but mud and grease, and you will be
getting a mouthful or 2 of the dirt. But, it generally isn't too
terribly difficult to do, and is really one of the easier repair jobs
that can be done. To me the hardest part is to get to the bolts holding
the starter in place. Manufacturers always seem to place one of them
in an awkward place to get to. Sometimes requiring an extra long extension
or a lot of contortions to get to. But it really isn't that hard.


--
Dick #1349
Damn it . . . Don't you dare ask God to help me.
To her housekeeper, who had begun to pray aloud.
~~ Joan Crawford, actress, d. May 10, 1977
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:

In article >,
Dick C > wrote:

> Nice set of instructions.

Glad ya liked 'em Hopefully, if anybody thinks I've blown it, they'll
step in and try to fix my goof.

> I just want to say that I know of no way to
> get dirty faster than changing a starter.

Agreed. Starters seem to be invariably filthy. It almost seems like they
come out of the box covered in grunge.

<snip>

> To me the hardest part is to get to the bolts holding
> the starter in place. Manufacturers always seem to place one of them
> in an awkward place to get to. Sometimes requiring an extra long extension
> or a lot of contortions to get to.

Often enough, that's true, but I'm lucky with mine. Two bolts, both easy
to get to with a socket on a 3 inch or longer extension (Someone COULD
do it with no extension, but it would be more of a PITA because of the
narrow "slot" that won't let you swing the ratchet more than one or two
clicks at a time - three inches is plenty to get clear of the slot,
though), disconnect the wiring, and the starter practically falls off
into your hand. Getting it back on is just about the same difficulty -
although I've "cheated" a little bit - My two starter bolts have been
replaced by bolts half an inch longer than stock, and that half inch has
been ground down to a shallow-sided point, much the same way I found out
the front-end to body bolts are. Makes locating the threaded holes
(located on a flange, so the longer bolts, which come from the rear
through unthreaded holes in the bell housing, hang out the front of the
flange without contacting anything) in the starter *MUCH* easier when
installing the starter. Only downside is you *MUST* get the bolt started
using fingers only, or it's likely to cross-thread the hole.

> But it really isn't that hard.

Definitely not. Especially if you "cheat" a bit Having a
Haynes/Chilton's, or better yet, a factory manual for the car helps a
lot, too.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

Don Bruder wrote in rec.autos.misc

> In article >,
> Dick C > wrote:
>
>> Nice set of instructions.
>
> Glad ya liked 'em Hopefully, if anybody thinks I've blown it, they'll
> step in and try to fix my goof.
>
>> I just want to say that I know of no way to
>> get dirty faster than changing a starter.
>
> Agreed. Starters seem to be invariably filthy. It almost seems like they
> come out of the box covered in grunge.
>
> <snip>
>
>> To me the hardest part is to get to the bolts holding
>> the starter in place. Manufacturers always seem to place one of them
>> in an awkward place to get to. Sometimes requiring an extra long
>> extension or a lot of contortions to get to.
>
> Often enough, that's true, but I'm lucky with mine. Two bolts, both easy
> to get to with a socket on a 3 inch or longer extension (Someone COULD
> do it with no extension, but it would be more of a PITA because of the
> narrow "slot" that won't let you swing the ratchet more than one or two
> clicks at a time - three inches is plenty to get clear of the slot,
> though), disconnect the wiring, and the starter practically falls off
> into your hand. Getting it back on is just about the same difficulty -
> although I've "cheated" a little bit - My two starter bolts have been
> replaced by bolts half an inch longer than stock, and that half inch has
> been ground down to a shallow-sided point, much the same way I found out
> the front-end to body bolts are. Makes locating the threaded holes
> (located on a flange, so the longer bolts, which come from the rear
> through unthreaded holes in the bell housing, hang out the front of the
> flange without contacting anything) in the starter *MUCH* easier when
> installing the starter. Only downside is you *MUST* get the bolt started
> using fingers only, or it's likely to cross-thread the hole.

On the other hand, the worst starter I had to do was on an old VW
Squareback. The starter had one bolt that you could get to under the
car, and the other bolt was(IIRC) facing the other way, and only
accessible by lifting off the engine cover in the back of the car,
and then crawling aournd the engine and putting a ratchet on it by
feel. Of course, this meant that the top bolt was the first one
removed, so that you had to support the starter to keep it from
tilting and binding the bottom bolt while loosening it.
And replacment was even more fun. :-/
Just to make matters interesting, I was broke, so I bought the starter
from a junk yard, and the first one didn't work when I put it in. Had to
take it back and get another one. I was pretty good at changing that
starter by the time I was done.
>
>> But it really isn't that hard.
>
> Definitely not. Especially if you "cheat" a bit Having a
> Haynes/Chilton's, or better yet, a factory manual for the car helps a
> lot, too.

I would only cheat like you did if I anticipated having to change a starter
very often.


--
Dick #1349
Damn it . . . Don't you dare ask God to help me.
To her housekeeper, who had begun to pray aloud.
~~ Joan Crawford, actress, d. May 10, 1977
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:

In article >,
Dick C > wrote:

> I would only cheat like you did if I anticipated having to change a starter
> very often.

Years and years ago, my grandfather passed on to me what might be the
most brilliant wisdom I've ever encountered. It came in the form of a
long lecture, one that literally spanned years, but it can be boiled
down to this: "Hope for the best, but expect the worst, and you'll never
find yourself disappointed by what happens". I'm also lazy. Not the
usual "bad" lazy that doesn't do anything, doesn't accomplish anything,
has no motivation, etc. But the kind of lazy that wants every chore to
be as quick and painless as possible, so it can be done and over with as
quick as possible. Those two bolts ground to a point are one little
facet of an overall pattern intended to both allow me to be lazy "in the
long term", and avoid disappointment. The logic goes "It's a stick.
Which means that sooner or later, the tranny is going to have to be
broken loose from the engine to swap the clutch. Which in turn means
that sooner or later, somebody, probably me, is going to have to pull
the starter, even if it's perfectly good. Which further means that
somebody (probably me again) is gonna hafta re-install the starter.
SOONER OR LATER, I'm likely to have to be pulling the starter. The day I
do, those "cheated" bolts are going to make the task that much simpler
and easier."

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

"Don Bruder" > wrote in message
news
> In article >,
> Dick C > wrote:
>
> > I would only cheat like you did if I anticipated having to change a
starter
> > very often.
>
> Years and years ago, my grandfather passed on to me what might be the
> most brilliant wisdom I've ever encountered. It came in the form of a
> long lecture, one that literally spanned years, but it can be boiled
> down to this: "Hope for the best, but expect the worst, and you'll never
> find yourself disappointed by what happens". I'm also lazy. Not the
> usual "bad" lazy that doesn't do anything, doesn't accomplish anything,
> has no motivation, etc. But the kind of lazy that wants every chore to
> be as quick and painless as possible, so it can be done and over with as
> quick as possible. Those two bolts ground to a point are one little
> facet of an overall pattern intended to both allow me to be lazy "in the
> long term", and avoid disappointment. The logic goes "It's a stick.
> Which means that sooner or later, the tranny is going to have to be
> broken loose from the engine to swap the clutch. Which in turn means
> that sooner or later, somebody, probably me, is going to have to pull
> the starter, even if it's perfectly good. Which further means that
> somebody (probably me again) is gonna hafta re-install the starter.
> SOONER OR LATER, I'm likely to have to be pulling the starter. The day I
> do, those "cheated" bolts are going to make the task that much simpler
> and easier."
>

argh, reminds me of a late 80's maxima.
i think book time to change the starter was like 5.3 hrs.
hadda move the exhaust, engine mounts, tilt engine, braces. sheesh.
had another one, had to replace flywheel & starter, was alot easier
and quicker to r/r transaxle, flywheel and starter than it was to r/r
starter...

> --
> Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21,
2004.
> I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get
no
> response, see <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> Short
> form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the
subject.