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#11
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Are my business assumptions correct?
On 4/2/2021 5:14 PM, Tekkie� wrote:
> > On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 14:25:42 -0400, micky posted for all of us to digest... > >> >> Are my business assumptions correct? >> >> I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to >> install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and >> if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can >> probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for >> the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money. >> >> However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be >> installed. >> >> For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works, >> I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be >> installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the >> parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory >> that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the >> parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income. >> >> Is this true? >> >> Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being >> honest? >> >> Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the >> profit they would have made on the parts? >> >> If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked >> by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be >> tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip >> almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the >> paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat. > > Depends on the shop. They make a small profit on parts. I am just giving the > other side of the story... What happens if the parts you supply are incorrect, > broken, poor quality, out of specs, what happens then? Are you sure the sensors > are bad? Just asking. Maybe a bad cat or broken wires, misinterpretation of > data. Use OEM or OEM supplier sensors or you may have another set of problems. > > They can be in REAL inaccessible places and tough to remove. It depends. > > Just like a lawyer would say: It depends. > The shop I use for stuff I don't do myself doesn't care. But then I buy my tires and have other work done there. -- ÄLSKAR - Fänga Dagen |
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#12
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Are my business assumptions correct?
micky wrote:
> Are my business assumptions correct? > > I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to > install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and > if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can > probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for > the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money. > > However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be > installed. > > For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works, > I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be > installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the > parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory > that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the > parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income. > > Is this true? > > Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being > honest? > > Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the > profit they would have made on the parts? > > If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked > by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be > tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip > almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the > paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat. Well you can **** money away by changing the sensors but it's not going to clear those codes. You have a different problem. As to what the shop does, it depends on the shop. In mine if a customer brings their own parts, they are installed with no testing or warranty given because those are the parts YOU want installed. It is also noted on the paperwork that "Customer supplied parts installed per their direction" That way if the parts are wrong or don't fix the issue it's not my problem. No difference in the labor rate. Now a good shop would bring in the car, do an actual diagnostic on it, then repair the real issue, which in this case could be nothing more than a broken vacuum fitting or bad intake boot that is letting excess air in past the MAF. Or a skewed MAF that is reading a low GPS number and the PCM thinks it's getting less air than it really is. Fuel trims and O2 live data would show that and changing the sensors will do nothing. Also you may wish to know that the only sensors involved with those codes are the two upstream sensors, the downstream units are for testing the cat efficiency and as back-ups to the upstreams if they fail. -- Steve W. |
#13
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Are my business assumptions correct?
Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Rod Speed > wrote: >> micky > wrote >> >>> Are my business assumptions correct? >>> >>> I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, >>> and I need to install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. >> Its very unlikely that more than one has failed. > > It's very unlikely any of them have failed. I cannot even count the number > of times I have seen cars blowing black smoke out the tailpipe which have > just got new oxygen sensors because the computer was throwing a code saying > the sensor was out of range in the rich direction. > > The morons don't bother to figure out why it threw the code, they just swap > out parts at random. They love swapping parts out. > --scott > Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag and finding the real issue. They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem... -- Steve W. |
#14
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Are my business assumptions correct?
On 3/4/21 5:19 pm, Steve W. wrote:
> micky wrote: >> Are my business assumptions correct? >> I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to >> install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.Â*Â* I know I can install one of them, and >> if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can >> probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for >> the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money. >> >> However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be >> installed. >> For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works, >> I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be >> installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the >> parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory >> that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the >> parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income. >> Is this true? >> Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being >> honest? >> Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the >> profit they would have made on the parts? >> If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked >> by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be >> tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake.Â* Or to skip >> almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the >> paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat. > > > Well you can **** money away by changing the sensors but it's not going > to clear those codes. You have a different problem. > > As to what the shop does, it depends on the shop. In mine if a customer > brings their own parts, they are installed with no testing or warranty > given because those are the parts YOU want installed. It is also noted > on the paperwork that "Customer supplied parts installed per their > direction" That way if the parts are wrong or don't fix the issue it's > not my problem. > No difference in the labor rate. > > Now a good shop would bring in the car, do an actual diagnostic on it, > then repair the real issue, which in this case could be nothing more > than a broken vacuum fitting or bad intake boot that is letting excess > air in past the MAF. Or a skewed MAF that is reading a low GPS number > and the PCM thinks it's getting less air than it really is. Fuel trims > and O2 live data would show that and changing the sensors will do nothing. > Also you may wish to know that the only sensors involved with those > codes are the two upstream sensors, the downstream units are for testing > the cat efficiency and as back-ups to the upstreams if they fail. > It always amazes me how people think that a *code reader* is the be all and end all of engine diagnostics. They seem to think an understanding of what's going on under the hood is no longer necessary. Unfortunately the diagnostician needs a very good understanding of system operation else they will be continually replacing bits which are showing *symptoms* of the real fault. This current case is the perfect example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. -- Xeno Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing. (with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson) |
#15
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Are my business assumptions correct?
In article >, Steve W. > wrote:
>Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX >changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag >and finding the real issue. >They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem... "But I saw on the Internet that replacing the front bumper will fix the rough idle problem!" --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#16
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Are my business assumptions correct?
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:02:02 +1100, Xeno posted for all of us to digest... > > On 3/4/21 5:19 pm, Steve W. wrote: > > micky wrote: > >> Are my business assumptions correct? > >> I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to > >> install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.** I know I can install one of them, and > >> if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can > >> probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for > >> the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money. > >> > >> However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be > >> installed. > >> For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works, > >> I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be > >> installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the > >> parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory > >> that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the > >> parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income. > >> Is this true? > >> Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being > >> honest? > >> Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the > >> profit they would have made on the parts? > >> If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked > >> by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be > >> tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake.* Or to skip > >> almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the > >> paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat. > > > > > > Well you can **** money away by changing the sensors but it's not going > > to clear those codes. You have a different problem. > > > > As to what the shop does, it depends on the shop. In mine if a customer > > brings their own parts, they are installed with no testing or warranty > > given because those are the parts YOU want installed. It is also noted > > on the paperwork that "Customer supplied parts installed per their > > direction" That way if the parts are wrong or don't fix the issue it's > > not my problem. > > No difference in the labor rate. > > > > Now a good shop would bring in the car, do an actual diagnostic on it, > > then repair the real issue, which in this case could be nothing more > > than a broken vacuum fitting or bad intake boot that is letting excess > > air in past the MAF. Or a skewed MAF that is reading a low GPS number > > and the PCM thinks it's getting less air than it really is. Fuel trims > > and O2 live data would show that and changing the sensors will do nothing. > > Also you may wish to know that the only sensors involved with those > > codes are the two upstream sensors, the downstream units are for testing > > the cat efficiency and as back-ups to the upstreams if they fail. > > > It always amazes me how people think that a *code reader* is the be all > and end all of engine diagnostics. They seem to think an understanding > of what's going on under the hood is no longer necessary. Unfortunately > the diagnostician needs a very good understanding of system operation > else they will be continually replacing bits which are showing > *symptoms* of the real fault. This current case is the perfect example > of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. Parts cannon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ -- Tekkie |
#17
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Are my business assumptions correct?
On 3 Apr 2021 14:49:40 -0000, Scott Dorsey posted for all of us to digest... > > In article >, Steve W. > wrote: > >Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX > >changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag > >and finding the real issue. > >They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem... > > "But I saw on the Internet that replacing the front bumper will fix the > rough idle problem!" > --scott Really? I thought it was the rear bumper because that's where the exhaust comes out... -- Tekkie |
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