Another hypothetical situation

In looking over some of the evaluations of late model automobiles, very few
were given a smiley face
where road noise was concerned.

I have ridden in some cars where the rumble from the front suspension, road
noise, wind noise were
nearly unbearable. Now, maybe in the higher end cars of similar chassis
series, the problems
may be less.

The question is, is it possible to make a silk purse from a sow's ear? Is
insulation enough, or does the
problem get into subframe reinforcement, welding, and techniques yet
undefined?

wrote:
>
> In looking over some of the evaluations of late model automobiles, very few
> were given a smiley face
> where road noise was concerned.
>
> I have ridden in some cars where the rumble from the front suspension, road
> noise, wind noise were
> nearly unbearable. Now, maybe in the higher end cars of similar chassis
> series, the problems
> may be less.
>
> The question is, is it possible to make a silk purse from a sow's ear? Is
> insulation enough, or does the
> problem get into subframe reinforcement, welding, and techniques yet
> undefined?

It would be interesting to see if the actual dB level has increased
over the years. Perhaps people expect the perfect car whereas in the
past they were happy if it just went forward at a reasonable speed.

=AB=BB wrote:
> wrote:
> >
> It would be interesting to see if the actual dB level has increased
> over the years. Perhaps people expect the perfect car whereas in the
> past they were happy if it just went forward at a reasonable speed.

I suspect that road noise for passenger cars that are not entry level
models has actually decreased over the years. For an eye (and ear)
opener take a ride in a fully restored stock passenger car from a few
decades ago. Not only is the ride and drivability at high speed
noticably poorer, but the noise level is up there as well.

I suspect the higher end models, at least some of them, are much better now
than low end and also better than cars of a few decades ago.

Insulation is part of it, I am sure. Isolation of rolling stock from the
body by rubber
bushings, etc, may also be better than it used to be.

I have felt for a long time that most GM cars had less jitter, jiggle, noise
than most
Fords, but that may be grossly oversimplifying the 'feel' of the cars.

I do know, for example, that some of the Mustangs had such flexible
unibodies
that ride stability was not optimum. The Fox body Mustangs are notorious
for this,
but my first (a new 66 Mustang) had jitter problems as well. Some local
mechanics
in Houston tried welding all the subframe panels, etc, solid to try to
offset the
spot weld frame's flexibility. They say it worked.

In the report I read, some BMW's and some Mercedes Benz rated very highly
for
road noise. Most other cars were somewhat noisy to downright uncomfortable.

I guess I am viewing this with an eye to another project car.

No such thin gin my 2004 Nissan Sentra, sometimes I wish I could hear it;
also since 1900 miles I switched to AMSOIl synthetic oil and all other
liquids also AMSOIL, the top in oil (Mobil1 contrary to publi cbeoiefs is
only #2 despite their lying commercials)

Your article is wrong, I dont know what "models" you've been researching, no
noise in my new workhorse Nissa nSentra, no noise in ANY I reneted which
were Oldsmobile and Ford.

After removings nonessential weights, spare tire/wheel and replacing steel
wheels with light Aluminum alloys I am making 40+mph, even mor ethan
stock/advertised valu eof 35 highway, ok, and quiet like a dead horse.

I was unexpectedly pleased with 2003 Mustang Convertible, automatic, 3.8L
(???) or 4.8 (?), dont know much about cars, anyway I rented it in Florida
( I am from Russia-->New York) and HATED the day I returned it to go back to
my own Sentra, that Mustang was like a bed, soft, uhh,.... I fear every
sizable pothole with my Nossan Sentra, though otherwise and fuel-economy
wise my Sentra is nonreplaceable, i only but them

"Mark Levitski" > wrote in
message ...
> Your article is wrong, I dont know what "models" you've been researching,
no
> noise in my new workhorse Nissa nSentra, no noise in ANY I reneted which
> were Oldsmobile and Ford.

I wouldn't venture a guess on whether the review is wrong or not, and don't
really have
a good way to find objective data.

I have ridden in a number of new cars in which rumble from the rolling parts
is pronounced.
Some cars seem relatively quiet until you hit a pothole, and then they sound
like two skeletons
making love.

If one believed the figures in this review, the Lexus 430 would probably be
the best car in every
category.

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:10:52 GMT, > wrote:

>In looking over some of the evaluations of late model automobiles, very few
>were given a smiley face
>where road noise was concerned.
>
>I have ridden in some cars where the rumble from the front suspension, road
>noise, wind noise were
>nearly unbearable. Now, maybe in the higher end cars of similar chassis
>series, the problems
>may be less.
>
>The question is, is it possible to make a silk purse from a sow's ear? Is
>insulation enough, or does the
>problem get into subframe reinforcement, welding, and techniques yet
>undefined?
>

The primary reason, IMHO, is because of the shift away from body on
frame to unibody combined with the use of thinner body panels and
stiffer suspension bushings. But as with anything, it's highly
variable, some old cars were noisy and some new cars are quiet. All
the truly quiet cars I've had were body on frame, Full sized Chevy's,
Dodge's and Fords from the 70's and 80's.

You might recall how Ford used to advertise how quiet their cars were
and one of the reasons was that the glass was thicker they said.
You'll notice they don't talk about them being quiet anymore because
like most makes, their bread and butter cars have gotten very noisy
compared to years ago.

Just as a specific comparison, I had a 69 Firebird, which was unibody,
that was a VERY quiet car, one of the quietest I have ever owned even
though it was a 400 high performance model. I bought a 76 vette to
replace it with an the vette was so noisy (and hard riding) I sold it
and kept the Firebird another 5 years. I now have a 99 GT and it is
an incredibly noisy car, you almost need to wear earplugs on a long
trip. Part of that is the wide tires but most of it is thinner panels
and hard suspension bushings that transmit road noise. And that's
after I went thru it with foam and dynamat to try and quiet it down.
I have a 89 S-10 that's actually pretty quiet, much quieter then the
Mustang, mostly because it's body on frame (like all cars used to be),
most of the noise in it comes from wind noise. I also have a 2005
Crown Vic, which is pretty quiet but not as quiet as the older full
sized cars were, again it goes back to the thinner panels (to save
weight and money), thinner carpets, thinner glass, wider tires, and
general cost cutting.

"Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 16:10:52 GMT, > wrote:
>
> >In looking over some of the evaluations of late model automobiles, very
few
> >were given a smiley face
> >where road noise was concerned.
> >
> >I have ridden in some cars where the rumble from the front suspension,
road
> >noise, wind noise were
> >nearly unbearable. Now, maybe in the higher end cars of similar chassis
> >series, the problems
> >may be less.
> >
> >The question is, is it possible to make a silk purse from a sow's ear?
Is
> >insulation enough, or does the
> >problem get into subframe reinforcement, welding, and techniques yet
> >undefined?
> >
>
> The primary reason, IMHO, is because of the shift away from body on
> frame to unibody combined with the use of thinner body panels and
> stiffer suspension bushings. But as with anything, it's highly
> variable, some old cars were noisy and some new cars are quiet. All
> the truly quiet cars I've had were body on frame, Full sized Chevy's,
> Dodge's and Fords from the 70's and 80's.
>
> You might recall how Ford used to advertise how quiet their cars were
> and one of the reasons was that the glass was thicker they said.
> You'll notice they don't talk about them being quiet anymore because
> like most makes, their bread and butter cars have gotten very noisy
> compared to years ago.
>
> Just as a specific comparison, I had a 69 Firebird, which was unibody,
> that was a VERY quiet car, one of the quietest I have ever owned even
> though it was a 400 high performance model. I bought a 76 vette to
> replace it with an the vette was so noisy (and hard riding) I sold it
> and kept the Firebird another 5 years. I now have a 99 GT and it is
> an incredibly noisy car, you almost need to wear earplugs on a long
> trip. Part of that is the wide tires but most of it is thinner panels
> and hard suspension bushings that transmit road noise. And that's
> after I went thru it with foam and dynamat to try and quiet it down.
> I have a 89 S-10 that's actually pretty quiet, much quieter then the
> Mustang, mostly because it's body on frame (like all cars used to be),
> most of the noise in it comes from wind noise. I also have a 2005
> Crown Vic, which is pretty quiet but not as quiet as the older full
> sized cars were, again it goes back to the thinner panels (to save
> weight and money), thinner carpets, thinner glass, wider tires, and
> general cost cutting.

Makes sense to me. I feel that, in a project car, one might be able to
add insulation, spray on acoustic foam, etc to help with noise.

'Jitter', for lack of a better word, is another phenomenon that makes
cars unpleasant to drive. I don't mean a correctable shimmy or wobble.
In 1990, I drove a number (5-6) Ford Thunderbirds from various
dealerships because I thought it was a nice looking car at a reasonable
price. All of them had this 'jitter', some extremely unpleasant, some
almost
liveable, but not one of them had the smooth 'eel in an oil barrel' feel
that
I had hoped for. Salesmen had all sorts of lame explanations, none of which
washed.

Perhaps unibody reinforcements, shock tower stabilizers, etc would help
this too.

And then maybe the sow's ear will never be a silk purse