Some states want to punish fuel-efficient car drivers

Siskuwihane wrote:

>>> "Tim Howard" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>> Oregon looks at taxing mileage instead of gasoline
>>>> By RYAN KOST, Associated Press Writer Ryan Kost, Associated Press
>>>> Writer – Sat Jan 3, 7:38 am ET
>>>> PORTLAND, Ore. – Oregon is among a growing number of states exploring
>>>> ways to tax drivers based on the number of miles they drive instead of
>>>> how much gas they use, even going so far as to install GPS monitoring
>>>> devices in 300 vehicles. The idea first emerged nearly 10 years ago as
>>>> Oregon lawmakers worried that fuel-efficient cars such as gas-electric
>>>> hybrids could pose a threat to road upkeep, which is paid for largely
>>>> with gasoline taxes.
>>>> "I'm glad we're taking a look at it before the potholes get so big
>>>> that we can't even get out of them," said Leroy Younglove, a Portland
>>>> driver who participated in a recent pilot program.
>>>> The proposal is not without critics, including drivers who are
>>>> concerned about privacy and others who fear the tax could eliminate
>>>> the financial incentive for buying efficient vehicles.
>>>> But Oregon is ahead of the nation in exploring the concept, even
>>>> though it will probably be years before any mileage tax is adopted.
>>>> Congress is talking about it, too. A congressional commission has
>>>> envisioned a system similar to the prototype Oregon tested in 2006-2007.
>>>> The National Commission on Surface Transportation Infrastructure
>>>> Financing is considering calling for higher gas taxes to keep
>>>> highways, bridges and transit programs in good shape.
>>>> But over the long term, commission members say, the nation should
>>>> consider taxing mileage rather than gasoline as drivers use more
>>>> fuel-efficient and electric vehicles.
>>>> As cars burn less fuel, "the gas tax isn't going to fill the bill,"
>>>> said Rep. Peter DeFazio of Oregon, a member of the House
>>>> Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.
>>>> The next Congress "could begin to set the stage, perhaps looking at
>>>> some much more robust pilot programs, to begin the research, to work
>>>> with manufacturers."
>>>> Gov. Ted Kulongoski has included development money for the tax in his
>>>> budget proposal, and interest is growing in a number of other states.
>>>> Governors in Idaho and Rhode Island have considered systems that would
>>>> require drivers to report their mileage when they register vehicles.
>>>> In North Carolina last month, a panel suggested charging motorists a
>>>> quarter-cent for every mile as a substitute for the gas tax.
>>>> James Whitty, the Oregon Department of Transportation employee in
>>>> charge of the state's effort, said he's also heard talk of mileage tax
>>>> proposals in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Colorado and Minnesota.
>>>> "There is kind of a coalition that's naturally forming around this,"
>>>> he said.
>>>> Also fueling the search for alternatives is the political difficulty
>>>> of raising gasoline taxes.
>>>> The federal gas tax has not been raised since 1993, and nearly two
>>>> dozen states have not changed their taxes since 1997, according to the
>>>> American Road & Transportation Builders Association.
>>>> In Oregon's pilot program, officials equipped 300 vehicles with GPS
>>>> transponders that worked wirelessly with service station pumps,
>>>> allowing drivers to pay their mileage tax just as they do their gas tax.
>>>> Whitty said the test, which involved two gas stations in the Portland
>>>> area, proved the idea could work.
>>>> Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great
>>>> detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones,
>>>> such as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the
>>>> driving was done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage.
>>>> The proposal envisions a gradual change, with manufacturers installing
>>>> the technology in new vehicles because retrofitting old cars would be
>>>> too expensive. Owners of older vehicles would continue to pay gasoline
>>>> taxes.
>>>> The difference in tax based on mileage or on gasoline would be small —
>>>> "pennies per transaction at the pump," Whitty said.
>>>> But the mileage tax still faces several major obstacles.
>>>> For one, Oregon accounts for only a small part of auto sales, so the
>>>> state can't go it alone. A multistate or national system would be needed.
>>>> Another concern is that such devices could threaten privacy. Whitty
>>>> said he and his task force have assured people that the program does
>>>> not track detailed movement and that driving history is not stored and
>>>> cannot be accessed by law enforcement agencies.
>>>> "I think most people will come to realize there is really no tracking
>>>> issue and will continue to buy new cars," Whitty said, noting that
>>>> many cell phones now come equipped with GPS, which has not deterred
>>>> customers.
>>>> Others are worried that a mileage tax would undermine years of
>>>> incentives to switch toward more fuel-efficient vehicles.
>>>> "It doesn't seem fair," said Paul Niedergang of Portland, that a
>>>> hybrid would be taxed as much as his Dodge pickup. "I just think the
>>>> gas tax needs to be updated."
>>>> Lynda Williams, also of Portland, was not immediately sold on the idea
>>>> but said it was worth consideration.
>>>> "We all have to be open-minded," she said. "Our current system just
>>>> isn't working."
>
> Our town was urged to conserve water during the last "drought". People
> cut back and the next thing you know the municipal authority raised
> rates because "so may people were conserving water that revenue was
> down". Our reward for conserving was higher costs. Last summer they
> again urged us to conserve water because supplies were down due to
> lack of rain, I don't know of too many who complied.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Glade someone on here
gets my point, thanks.

"Michelle Steiner" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Michael Pardee" > wrote:
>
>> Better yet, the alt-fuel fiasco.
>
> That happened between my residences in the state. Wasn't Symington
> involved with that in some manner or another?
>

No. Symington lied about his assets on large real estate loan applications.
He had his own odd dealings, such as enraging the tribes around the Valley
by reneging on the agreements that allowed the casinos to operate on tribal
land. That led to a brief shutting down of the lane of Pima road that was on
tribal land. I may have the details askew, but things like that are too
weird to make up!

Ooh - I did forget to include the case of Ken R. Kunes, who was the Maricopa
county assessor for the first decade or so I was in Arizona. I always
thought it was unusual that we should have to make out our car registration
checks to "Ken R. Kunes, county ass." After a while his teflon must have
worn thin and a county prosecutor decided to go after him. The scam was that
all the money went into an interest-bearing account in the name of Ken R.
Kunes. (I assume it was not in Lincoln S&L, one of the "savings and loan"
institutions of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five ) On the appointed day of
each month the amount actually due was transferred to a county account,
leaving behind a tiny fraction of a cent interest on each of the hundreds of
millions of dollars that passed through the account every year. In the end
he was allowed to keep the money and was not prosecuted in return for
agreeing not to run for re-election.

And then there is our current governor, who inexplicably renamed Squaw Peak
"Piestewa Peak" when she could have renamed it after another native who was
more local and a genuine hero of more than half a century: Ira Hayes. Hayes
was one of the Marines who raised the flag atop Mt. Suribachi on Iwo Jima
and one of the three who lived to tell about it. Lori Piestewa was just a
soldier who died in an ambush.

At least we aren't as weird as them Californians! ;-)

Mike

"Michelle Steiner" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Michael Pardee" > wrote:
>
>> Lori Piestewa was just a soldier who died in an ambush.
>
> She was also the first American woman to die in combat in Iraq, and the
> first Native American woman to die in combat, period.
>
> Many other governors could have named something after Ira Hayes, but
> none of them did, so why single out Janet Napolitano for not doing it?
>
> Regardless, even if it were wrong for her to do so, it pales in
> comparison to the other stuff you related.
>
> -- Michelle
>
I agree - I have few complaints about Napolitano and this is admittedly a
carping one. It is not in the same league with the many more outrageous
scandals Arizona has in its recent past. It just seemed clueless - and still
does - that she would pass up the opportunity to rename the peak (which was
clearly her purpose) to honor a major Arizona figure - especially one who
was a local and who gained such national fame - in favor of somebody who
will be "who?" and "so what?" within a generation. There was quite a flap
about the guideline that the honoree be of fifty years' standing and it was
an insult to the O'odham, both embarrassments she could have avoided. I
believe she just didn't give it much thought.

Mike

"Michelle Steiner" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Michael Pardee" > wrote:
>
>> Lori Piestewa was just a soldier who died in an ambush.
>
> She was also the first American woman to die in combat in Iraq, and the
> first Native American woman to die in combat, period.
>
> Many other governors could have named something after Ira Hayes, but
> none of them did, so why single out Janet Napolitano for not doing it?
>
> Regardless, even if it were wrong for her to do so, it pales in
> comparison to the other stuff you related.
>
> -- Michelle
>
> --
> It's now time for healing, and for fixing the damage the GOP did to
> America.

What about fixing all the damage the DEMONrats have done over the years?

The DEMONrats are full of subversives, incompetents and various sexual
deviates.

"me" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:18:34 -0700, Michelle Steiner
> > wrote:
>
>>Miniscule compared to the carnage wreaked by the Repugnants. The GOP
>>(which, contrary to their wishes, is not God's Own Party) is a hotbed of
>>liars, crooks, thieves, miscreants, and scoundrels. They don't give a
>>**** about the country; they're interested only in their own welfare and
>>their own flawed ideology.
>
> Don't waste your time. Anyone posting here in support of the
> Republicans is a tool of the neo-cons and severely brainwashed to
> believe that the GOP is going to help them in some way.
> Unfortunately, the GOP was taken over by the neo's some years ago and
> exists only to feather the beds of the exceedingly rich.
>
> I do admire the incredible brainwashing they've done though. You can
> watch these tools fiercely defend GOP policies using the nonsense
> their head has been stuffed with - all the time failing to see how
> they are being screwed by the same policies.
>>
>>Yeah, the Democrats have a few like that too; William Jefferson and the
>>governor of Illinois come to mind, but as a whole the party stands head
>>and shoulders above the cess pool that calls itself the GOP.
>
> Yeah, the Dem's are nothing to write home about either. They're
> sincere, but very ineffective. Still, they never allowed the party to
> be hijacked the way the GOP has been in the last few decades.
>

Tell that to the folks who clean the men's room at the twin cities airport.

"Sharx35" > wrote in message
news:NLeal.4309$PH1.241@edtnps82...
> The DEMONrats are full of subversives, incompetents and various sexual
> deviates.
>
> "me" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:18:34 -0700, Michelle Steiner
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Miniscule compared to the carnage wreaked by the Repugnants. The GOP
>>>(which, contrary to their wishes, is not God's Own Party) is a hotbed of
>>>liars, crooks, thieves, miscreants, and scoundrels. They don't give a
>>>**** about the country; they're interested only in their own welfare and
>>>their own flawed ideology.
>>
>> Don't waste your time. Anyone posting here in support of the
>> Republicans is a tool of the neo-cons and severely brainwashed to
>> believe that the GOP is going to help them in some way.
>> Unfortunately, the GOP was taken over by the neo's some years ago and
>> exists only to feather the beds of the exceedingly rich.
>>
>> I do admire the incredible brainwashing they've done though. You can
>> watch these tools fiercely defend GOP policies using the nonsense
>> their head has been stuffed with - all the time failing to see how
>> they are being screwed by the same policies.
>>>
>>>Yeah, the Democrats have a few like that too; William Jefferson and the
>>>governor of Illinois come to mind, but as a whole the party stands head
>>>and shoulders above the cess pool that calls itself the GOP.
>>
>> Yeah, the Dem's are nothing to write home about either. They're
>> sincere, but very ineffective. Still, they never allowed the party to
>> be hijacked the way the GOP has been in the last few decades.
>>

Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <o1U9l.4068$Db2.337@edtnps83>,
> "Sharx35" > wrote:
>
>
>>>It's now time for healing, and for fixing the damage the GOP did to
>>>America.
>>
>>What about fixing all the damage the DEMONrats have done over the
>>years?
>
>
> Miniscule compared to the carnage wreaked by the Repugnants. The GOP
> (which, contrary to their wishes, is not God's Own Party) is a hotbed of
> liars, crooks, thieves, miscreants, and scoundrels. They don't give a
> **** about the country; they're interested only in their own welfare and
> their own flawed ideology.
>
> Yeah, the Democrats have a few like that too; William Jefferson and the
> governor of Illinois come to mind, but as a whole the party stands head
> and shoulders above the cess pool that calls itself the GOP.
>


Hmmmmmm..... Some flawed reasoning methinks.

Top Ten Cities (250,000 or more) with the HIghest Poverty Rates


1. Detroit, MI 32.5%
2. Buffalo NY 29.9%
3. Cincinnati, OH 27.8%
4. Cleveland, OH 27.0%
5. Miami, FL 25.9%
6. St. Louis, MO 26.8%
7. El Paso, TX 26.4%
8. Milwaukee, WI 26.2%
9. Philadelphia, PA 25.1%
10. Newark, NJ 24.2%


Betcha thar' ain't a nasty Republican to be found in any of these...

JT

me wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:55:12 GMT, Grumpy AuContraire
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Hmmmmmm..... Some flawed reasoning methinks.
>>
>>Top Ten Cities (250,000 or more) with the HIghest Poverty Rates
>>
>>
>>1. Detroit, MI 32.5%
>>2. Buffalo NY 29.9%
>>3. Cincinnati, OH 27.8%
>>4. Cleveland, OH 27.0%
>>5. Miami, FL 25.9%
>>6. St. Louis, MO 26.8%
>>7. El Paso, TX 26.4%
>>8. Milwaukee, WI 26.2%
>>9. Philadelphia, PA 25.1%
>>10. Newark, NJ 24.2%
>>
>>
>>Betcha thar' ain't a nasty Republican to be found in any of these...
>>
>
>
> Those cites don't have a low living standard because they are
> Democratic, they are Democratic because they have a low living
> standard.
>
> The Republicans have rarely shown a disposition to helping anyone but
> themselves: the "I got mine, good luck getting yours" philosophy.
> whereas the Democrats have a "I have some, let's all share"
> philosophy). The poor would benefit by being taught the techniques of
> singleness/certainty of purpose and perseverance that the self-made
> Republicans have used to get where they are, but few Republicans want
> to teach it (a few notable exceptions). The poor would benefit by the
> successful Democrats teaching those same concepts and rather than
> handing out and preaching strategy-less hope (again, some notable
> exceptions).
>


Why am I not surprised?

"Self made" indicates folks who do what they must to be successful. IOW,
they are providers rather than takers.

Something that is not part of the Democrat vocabulary...

JT

What do they make this complicated with GPS? They just have to
records the odeometer annual, say at the emissions test.

me wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 01:24:00 GMT, Grumpy AuContraire
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Why am I not surprised?
>>
>>"Self made" indicates folks who do what they must to be successful. IOW,
>>they are providers rather than takers.
>
>
> I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that there are more "self made"
> Republicans than Democrats.

You're joking, right?

Republicans are wealth creators while the Demos are wealth consumers.


>
>
>>Something that is not part of the Democrat vocabulary...
>
>
> The problem is that it's only part of the Republican vocabulary when
> talking about themselves. They have no desire to distribute their
> skills to others. The Democrats fail by concentrating on practical
> skills and failing to teach the mindset necessary to achieve goals.
>

What are the "practical" skills of democrats? Thinking of ways to share
the "wealth" is all I can think of.


> Both groups could do a lot more to stimulate people with potential.
>

Now, this is true.

JT