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#782
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So as you asserted that "refrigeration" has nothing to do with "HVAC," why is "refrigerant" proper terminology for the industy? "refrigerant" is both the proper terminoloy _and_ the commonly > used reference by those who know what theyre talking about. only those > ignorant to the industry would use the word "freon" and only the foolish > would defend it. > > >> An excellent example of this is to search E-Bay (tm) for Freon. > > lol well there it is.....ebay = biblical credibility! :-) > > oh wait im sorry, you liberals have no use for such foolishness. > > -- > Nathan W. Collier > http://InlineDiesel.com > http://7SlotGrille.com > http://UtilityOffRoad.com > |
#783
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"jeff" > wrote in message
news:m1WBe.65$N91.52@trnddc08... > I didn't know one had to be an AC/HVAC/Refrigeration tech to understand > chemistry. i didnt call you on the chemistry. i called you on the terminology. stay on track. >> yeah no ****! refrigerant is a compound, a MIXTURE and when you add up > all the components they are heavier than the individual components. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > did I see MIXTURE??? to clarify...look right before that where i said it is a compound. mixture was added as further explanation but i clearly stated "refrigerant is a compound". > Do they recognize the word "Freon" and understand what you are referring > to? If so, then the term was sufficient. only to the ignorant. > not all compounds are heavier/denser/have a higher specific gravity/ than > their constituent elements, so you are wrong on two accounts. show me where i ever said ALL compounds were heavier. im referencing refrigerants. > No, just a demonstration that reasonable people recognize freon-12 as a > specific entity, and by in-large use the term generically. and many people recognize a "gat" as a gun....doesnt make it proper. > apparently anyone who thinks you are a dumbass must be a <spit> liberal... nope. just you and your liberal buddy stephen. :-) -- Nathan W. Collier http://InlineDiesel.com http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com http://BighornRefrigeration.com |
#784
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"Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
... > So as you asserted that "refrigeration" has nothing to do with "HVAC," HVAC = Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning. HVAC/R = Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning/Refrigeration > why is "refrigerant" proper terminology for the industy? the basic function of refrigerant is the same both in refrigeration and air conditioning. the refrigerant picks up heat as it evaporates and releases it elsewhere when it condenses. this is why a medium temp refrigerant is still a refrigerant, its serving the same basic function. the industry however, is entirely different. low temp applications require far more critical design, componentry, and especially training. you take a guy with 20 years hvac experience and put him into a refrigeration situation and virtually _nothing_ he's learned over the last 20 years will help him. the industries are similar, yet entirely different. -- Nathan W. Collier http://InlineDiesel.com http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com http://BighornRefrigeration.com |
#785
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Just curious, are you qualified to work on old York commercial A/C units?
Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat exchanger...there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any experience on them. We tried another repair company and they just screwed the whole thing up. right now our systems take water from the city line, uses it for the heat transfer from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the sewer. As expensive as our water bills are in the summer, it' still cheaper than replacing the units for a 24,000 squ ft building...we still might try to install a closed-loop water system with radiators on the roof but that's mucho dinero as well, and with the economy in MI the way it is we have to spend every spare penny on promotion to get the customers in.... "Nathan W. Collier" > wrote in message ... > "Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message > ... >> So as you asserted that "refrigeration" has nothing to do with "HVAC," > > HVAC = Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning. HVAC/R = Heating Ventilation > Air Conditioning/Refrigeration > >> why is "refrigerant" proper terminology for the industy? > > the basic function of refrigerant is the same both in refrigeration and > air conditioning. the refrigerant picks up heat as it evaporates and > releases it elsewhere when it condenses. this is why a medium temp > refrigerant is still a refrigerant, its serving the same basic function. > the industry however, is entirely different. low temp applications > require far more critical design, componentry, and especially training. > you take a guy with 20 years hvac experience and put him into a > refrigeration situation and virtually _nothing_ he's learned over the last > 20 years will help him. the industries are similar, yet entirely > different. > > -- > Nathan W. Collier > http://InlineDiesel.com > http://7SlotGrille.com > http://UtilityOffRoad.com > http://BighornRefrigeration.com > |
#786
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"Matt Macchiarolo" wrote in message: "Just curious, are you qualified to
work on old York commercial A/C units? Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat exchanger...there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any experience on them. We tried another repair company and they just screwed the whole thing up. right now our systems take water from the city line, uses it for the heat transfer from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the sewer. As expensive as our water bills are in the summer, it' still cheaper than replacing the units for a 24,000 squ ft building...we still might try to install a closed-loop water system with radiators on the roof but that's mucho dinero as well, and with the economy in MI the way it is we have to spend every spare penny on promotion to get the customers in...." What you describing is a unit that uses the water to condense the refrigerant. Many commercial units of that size used a cooling water tower to recycle the water back into the system. Water was only made up to the tower as it evaporated. Other cost was associated with this. You must add chemicals to the tower to maintain the algae levels and conductivity are you will have a problem. Despite the cost of replacement, it may be beneficial due to running more economical system over a given time period. Better Seer rating and less maintenance. I worked at a large industrial complex. We have commercial AC units that are still running since they were put in 1954. Parts are not available for some. They have been modified by the on site HVAC man. The wiring diagrams do not mean crap because he rewired them to keep them running. They won't replace the unit unless it cannot be fixed. We also have large chillers on the plant. York Refrigeration has a contract to repair these. Most use are newer then the AC units we have on the plant. It comes down to simple economics. Replace a chiller that may cost 350 thousand dollars because it is better then having down time and loosing a million dollars a day in lost production. However no lose production occurs when a HVAC unit goes out. Office workers suffer due to the no AC but they just moved their meetings to a building where the AC is working. The HVAC repair company on the plant has switch 5 times since I been there but they all hire the guy that has been working on the units due to his knowledge of the equipment. He makes his on hours and they give him a vehicle to come back and forth to work in. He is at work at 3 AM and home by 1 AM Monday through Thursday. This man is unbelievable. He takes every unit apart once a year and cleans the unit and waxes both inside and outside. Sarge |
#787
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"Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
... > Just curious, are you qualified to work on old York commercial A/C units? yes. the only area i dont consider myself qualified on yet is ground source/geo thermal. i have field experience and can work through most issues but have no formal training on them yet. ill be in the next course offered by water furnace. > Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat > exchanger a water cooled condensor. these days its more common in refrigeration applications but i still see a lot of it in upper end homes (people who dont want to hear a fan running and can afford to buy the water). while ground source is more efficient, many dont have the yard for the loops so they run water cooled. > there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any experience on > them. thats what i love about this industry. if you apply yourself to learn you can make a great honest living. > our systems take water from the city line, uses it for the heat transfer > from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the sewer. really not uncommon, although i rarely see it anymore in hvac applications. -- Nathan W. Collier http://InlineDiesel.com http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com http://BighornRefrigeration.com |
#788
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"Sarge" > wrote in message
... > We have commercial AC units that > are still running since they were put in 1954. some of those older units are amazing. i bet theyre still running when equipment installed today is long since dead. -- Nathan W. Collier http://InlineDiesel.com http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com http://BighornRefrigeration.com |
#789
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Hi Sarge,
We have swap coolers out here in our deserts, but I can't imagine how water could be used to cool a refrigerant, how it could be more efficient than just a regular condenser cooled by air being blown through it. Would it still use something like freon to take the heat out of the building? God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O http://www.billhughes.com/ Sarge wrote: > > "Matt Macchiarolo" wrote in message: "Just curious, are you qualified to > work on old York commercial A/C units? > Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat > exchanger...there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any > experience on them. We tried another repair company and they just screwed > the whole thing up. right now our systems take water from the city line, > uses it for the heat transfer from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the > sewer. As expensive as our water bills are in the summer, it' still cheaper > than replacing the units for a 24,000 squ ft building...we still might try > to install a closed-loop water system with radiators on the roof but that's > mucho dinero as well, and with the economy in MI the way it is we have to > spend every spare penny on promotion to get the customers in...." > > What you describing is a unit that uses the water to condense the > refrigerant. Many commercial units of that size used a cooling water tower > to recycle the water back into the system. Water was only made up to the > tower as it evaporated. Other cost was associated with this. You must add > chemicals to the tower to maintain the algae levels and conductivity are you > will have a problem. Despite the cost of replacement, it may be beneficial > due to running more economical system over a given time period. Better Seer > rating and less maintenance. > > I worked at a large industrial complex. We have commercial AC units that > are still running since they were put in 1954. Parts are not available for > some. They have been modified by the on site HVAC man. The wiring diagrams > do not mean crap because he rewired them to keep them running. They won't > replace the unit unless it cannot be fixed. > > We also have large chillers on the plant. York Refrigeration has a contract > to repair these. Most use are newer then the AC units we have on the plant. > It comes down to simple economics. Replace a chiller that may cost 350 > thousand dollars because it is better then having down time and loosing a > million dollars a day in lost production. However no lose production occurs > when a HVAC unit goes out. Office workers suffer due to the no AC but they > just moved their meetings to a building where the AC is working. > > The HVAC repair company on the plant has switch 5 times since I been there > but they all hire the guy that has been working on the units due to his > knowledge of the equipment. He makes his on hours and they give him a > vehicle to come back and forth to work in. He is at work at 3 AM and home > by 1 AM Monday through Thursday. This man is unbelievable. He takes every > unit apart once a year and cleans the unit and waxes both inside and > outside. > > Sarge |
#790
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"L.W. ("ßill") Hughes III" > wrote in message
... > We have swap coolers out here in our deserts, swamp coolers suck in most applications. totally different principle from a water cooled condensor. > but I can't imagine > how water could be used to cool a refrigerant, how it could be more > efficient than just a regular condenser cooled by air being blown > through it. take a red hot piece of steel and blow a fan over it. now take a red hot piece of steel and dunk it under water. which cools it faster? :-) water cooled condensors run hot refrigerant through a tube that is inside another tube running water through it. its very effiicient, effective, and quiet. -- Nathan W. Collier http://InlineDiesel.com http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com http://BighornRefrigeration.com |
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