American vs German Quality

Hans Mücke > wrote in message >...
> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
> > Is there a PROVEABLE difference in Design, Materials, and Fabrication of
> > American vs German automobiles?
>
> It is provable, that it is in people`s minds. Over here, people say It"s
> full of plastic." when they think of american cars. What they forget .. a
> mercedes is full of plastic too - it only looks different.

I used to believe that German autos were much more reliable than their
American counterparts. However, after having friends that have owned
Mercedes', Audi's, and water-cooled Volkswagons with their various
problems, I don't feel that way anymore. The old air-cooled beetles
had a reputation for being reliable, most likely due to there very
simple design.

I don't have any friends that own or have owned BMW's.

-Kirk Matheson

Hans Mücke > wrote in message >...
> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
> > Is there a PROVEABLE difference in Design, Materials, and Fabrication of
> > American vs German automobiles?
>
> It is provable, that it is in people`s minds. Over here, people say It"s
> full of plastic." when they think of american cars. What they forget .. a
> mercedes is full of plastic too - it only looks different.

I used to believe that German autos were much more reliable than their
American counterparts. However, after having friends that have owned
Mercedes', Audi's, and water-cooled Volkswagons with their various
problems, I don't feel that way anymore. The old air-cooled beetles
had a reputation for being reliable, most likely due to there very
simple design.

I don't have any friends that own or have owned BMW's.

-Kirk Matheson

"Kirk Matheson" > wrote in message
om...
> Hans Mücke > wrote in message
>...
> > Nomen Nescio wrote:
> >
> > > Is there a PROVEABLE difference in Design, Materials, and Fabrication
of
> > > American vs German automobiles?
> >
> > It is provable, that it is in people`s minds. Over here, people say It"s
> > full of plastic." when they think of american cars. What they forget ..
a
> > mercedes is full of plastic too - it only looks different.
>
> I used to believe that German autos were much more reliable than their
> American counterparts. However, after having friends that have owned
> Mercedes', Audi's, and water-cooled Volkswagons with their various
> problems, I don't feel that way anymore. The old air-cooled beetles
> had a reputation for being reliable, most likely due to there very
> simple design.
>
> I don't have any friends that own or have owned BMW's.
>
> -Kirk Matheson

I have two VW's. a Dodge minivan, and a Mercury Grand Marquis. I've had
very little trouble with any of them. There is no reason not to believe
Consumer Reports' and J.D. Powers' findings that certain makes of Japanese
cars have the best quality. The thing is, the quality of all cars has
improved so much over the last 20 years that, with any luck, you can buy any
brand, take care of it, and have a reliable car. According to C.R. et. al.,
VW is among the worst of brands of cars sold in the U.S., but my Jetta
diesel wagon has had zero problems in a year and 14K miles.

I had a Lexus IS300 SportCross, and it was not only completely reliable, but
the fit and finish were perfect. The "total quaility" of that car was, in
fact, better than that of other cars I've had. After having it a few years,
I replaced it with the Jetta because I was ready for something different,
and which would use half as much fuel. Many people might be surprised to
know that the general appearance and comfort of the VW's interior is
comparable to that of the Lexus IS300. The IS300 is more "sport" and less
"luxury" oriented than other Lexii, but it, and current VW's have very nice
interiors.

"Kirk Matheson" > wrote in message
om...
> Hans Mücke > wrote in message
>...
> > Nomen Nescio wrote:
> >
> > > Is there a PROVEABLE difference in Design, Materials, and Fabrication
of
> > > American vs German automobiles?
> >
> > It is provable, that it is in people`s minds. Over here, people say It"s
> > full of plastic." when they think of american cars. What they forget ..
a
> > mercedes is full of plastic too - it only looks different.
>
> I used to believe that German autos were much more reliable than their
> American counterparts. However, after having friends that have owned
> Mercedes', Audi's, and water-cooled Volkswagons with their various
> problems, I don't feel that way anymore. The old air-cooled beetles
> had a reputation for being reliable, most likely due to there very
> simple design.
>
> I don't have any friends that own or have owned BMW's.
>
> -Kirk Matheson

I have two VW's. a Dodge minivan, and a Mercury Grand Marquis. I've had
very little trouble with any of them. There is no reason not to believe
Consumer Reports' and J.D. Powers' findings that certain makes of Japanese
cars have the best quality. The thing is, the quality of all cars has
improved so much over the last 20 years that, with any luck, you can buy any
brand, take care of it, and have a reliable car. According to C.R. et. al.,
VW is among the worst of brands of cars sold in the U.S., but my Jetta
diesel wagon has had zero problems in a year and 14K miles.

I had a Lexus IS300 SportCross, and it was not only completely reliable, but
the fit and finish were perfect. The "total quaility" of that car was, in
fact, better than that of other cars I've had. After having it a few years,
I replaced it with the Jetta because I was ready for something different,
and which would use half as much fuel. Many people might be surprised to
know that the general appearance and comfort of the VW's interior is
comparable to that of the Lexus IS300. The IS300 is more "sport" and less
"luxury" oriented than other Lexii, but it, and current VW's have very nice
interiors.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 01:50:02 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> Is there a PROVEABLE difference in Design, Materials, and Fabrication of
> American vs German automobiles?
>
> I think is a myth that country-of-origin has any significance whatsoever
> regarding the merit of automotive product. There are certain differences,
> to be sure; for example:
>
> The front suspension lower control arms on the old Mercedes sedans appears
> to be a forging. American design practice is pressed steel. But is this
> significant? Might they both be equal in real quality even though the
> forgings are obviously more expensive to produce? Perhaps this is just
> overkill.
>
> On real quality issues, like redundant ignition and fuel system components,
> both are equally deficient. With some mainstream luxury cars approaching
> the 100K mark we still see not aircraft design practice. Only aircraft
> pricing.

Both JD Powers and Consumer Reports have said that the reliablity of
German cars has become terrible. The Chrysler division products have
scored much better that Mercedes division products in the last couple of
years.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 01:50:02 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> Is there a PROVEABLE difference in Design, Materials, and Fabrication of
> American vs German automobiles?
>
> I think is a myth that country-of-origin has any significance whatsoever
> regarding the merit of automotive product. There are certain differences,
> to be sure; for example:
>
> The front suspension lower control arms on the old Mercedes sedans appears
> to be a forging. American design practice is pressed steel. But is this
> significant? Might they both be equal in real quality even though the
> forgings are obviously more expensive to produce? Perhaps this is just
> overkill.
>
> On real quality issues, like redundant ignition and fuel system components,
> both are equally deficient. With some mainstream luxury cars approaching
> the 100K mark we still see not aircraft design practice. Only aircraft
> pricing.

Both JD Powers and Consumer Reports have said that the reliablity of
German cars has become terrible. The Chrysler division products have
scored much better that Mercedes division products in the last couple of
years.

Hi everybody,
I am probably one of the few Germans who, after driving several German made
cars (Fords, Audi, Smart) and one Honda, bought 3 American cars. I live in a
neighborhood where everybody else works at the local Mercedes plant and
drives Mercedes. Not me. I don't like car trouble.

Yes, I agree, the overall quality of German cars has deteriorated
considerably (see my neighbors complaing about the frequent electronic
issues of their cars), and, at the same time, the the price of an average
German car rose to unprecedented heights. There is an unholy race going on
among the car designers who put more and more electronic gadgets into the
cars and at the same time neglect quality control because it costs money.

With the Audi, I had frequent minor troubles with the engine (carburator) ,
the brakes, and the odometer, and the transmission that failed completely.
The Honda showed excessive wear on the rocker arms after only 60.000kms, the
alternator had to be replaced twice, too. Very expensive!!
Both German Ford's steering mechanisms went completely out at 80.000kms and
had to be replaced. About 900$ each. They also had frequent minor mechanical
problems.
Worst car ever is the Smart (a Mercedes affiliate). It is virtually falling
aparts when you drive it. You never know what is coming off next. Repairs
are very costly, because it is maintained by Mercedes.

I first came across an American car when I was looking for a spacious van
for familiy transport. I ended up with a 98 Ford Windstar (I had a German
Ford station wagons before), which was considerably cheaper, more powerful,
and more luxurious than its German counterpart van, a co-production of VW
and Ford. Well, the Windstar never let me down, and the only trouble I had
within 100000 kms was a speed sensor acting up. No big deal. Maintenance
costs were low as well. I sold it when the kids wanted to go their own ways.

After my good experiences with the Windstar I bought a Chevrolet
Trailblazer, which is quite an exotic model here. I was very pleased by its
comfortable ride and the powerful engine. I prefered it to the BMW X5 which
was 20.000 Euros (=22.000$) more or the Toyota (same price as the BMW).
I use to drive her very hard on the Autobahn (no speed limit!!) and she's
pulling my big trailer without problems. No issues so far, its 2 years now
with 43000kms on the odometer. Very good built quality, very solid
construction.

Just recently, I bought a Chrysler Sebring Convertible for my wife (she
loves it) and I hope it will be as reliable as the Trailblazer and the
Windstar.

Conclusion: there is no reason for buying German or Japanese Too many
issues, too expensive, bad reliability.


> Both JD Powers and Consumer Reports have said that the reliablity of
> German cars has become terrible. The Chrysler division products have
> scored much better that Mercedes division products in the last couple of
> years.

Hi everybody,
I am probably one of the few Germans who, after driving several German made
cars (Fords, Audi, Smart) and one Honda, bought 3 American cars. I live in a
neighborhood where everybody else works at the local Mercedes plant and
drives Mercedes. Not me. I don't like car trouble.

Yes, I agree, the overall quality of German cars has deteriorated
considerably (see my neighbors complaing about the frequent electronic
issues of their cars), and, at the same time, the the price of an average
German car rose to unprecedented heights. There is an unholy race going on
among the car designers who put more and more electronic gadgets into the
cars and at the same time neglect quality control because it costs money.

With the Audi, I had frequent minor troubles with the engine (carburator) ,
the brakes, and the odometer, and the transmission that failed completely.
The Honda showed excessive wear on the rocker arms after only 60.000kms, the
alternator had to be replaced twice, too. Very expensive!!
Both German Ford's steering mechanisms went completely out at 80.000kms and
had to be replaced. About 900$ each. They also had frequent minor mechanical
problems.
Worst car ever is the Smart (a Mercedes affiliate). It is virtually falling
aparts when you drive it. You never know what is coming off next. Repairs
are very costly, because it is maintained by Mercedes.

I first came across an American car when I was looking for a spacious van
for familiy transport. I ended up with a 98 Ford Windstar (I had a German
Ford station wagons before), which was considerably cheaper, more powerful,
and more luxurious than its German counterpart van, a co-production of VW
and Ford. Well, the Windstar never let me down, and the only trouble I had
within 100000 kms was a speed sensor acting up. No big deal. Maintenance
costs were low as well. I sold it when the kids wanted to go their own ways.

After my good experiences with the Windstar I bought a Chevrolet
Trailblazer, which is quite an exotic model here. I was very pleased by its
comfortable ride and the powerful engine. I prefered it to the BMW X5 which
was 20.000 Euros (=22.000$) more or the Toyota (same price as the BMW).
I use to drive her very hard on the Autobahn (no speed limit!!) and she's
pulling my big trailer without problems. No issues so far, its 2 years now
with 43000kms on the odometer. Very good built quality, very solid
construction.

Just recently, I bought a Chrysler Sebring Convertible for my wife (she
loves it) and I hope it will be as reliable as the Trailblazer and the
Windstar.

Conclusion: there is no reason for buying German or Japanese Too many
issues, too expensive, bad reliability.


> Both JD Powers and Consumer Reports have said that the reliablity of
> German cars has become terrible. The Chrysler division products have
> scored much better that Mercedes division products in the last couple of
> years.

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, A.Muewi wrote:

> I am probably one of the few Germans who, after driving several German
> made cars (Fords, Audi, Smart) and one Honda, bought 3 American cars. I
> live in a neighborhood where everybody else works at the local Mercedes
> plant and drives Mercedes. Not me. I don't like car trouble.

You're not the only one.

Take a look here at Peter Wendt's page:

http://members.aol.com/peterwendt/usautogw.htm

> There is an unholy race going on among the car designers who put more
> and more electronic gadgets into the cars and at the same time neglect
> quality control because it costs money.

This is what happens when lawyers and business-degreed idiots rather than
engineers are permitted to direct car companies.

DS

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, A.Muewi wrote:

> I am probably one of the few Germans who, after driving several German
> made cars (Fords, Audi, Smart) and one Honda, bought 3 American cars. I
> live in a neighborhood where everybody else works at the local Mercedes
> plant and drives Mercedes. Not me. I don't like car trouble.

You're not the only one.

Take a look here at Peter Wendt's page:

http://members.aol.com/peterwendt/usautogw.htm

> There is an unholy race going on among the car designers who put more
> and more electronic gadgets into the cars and at the same time neglect
> quality control because it costs money.

This is what happens when lawyers and business-degreed idiots rather than
engineers are permitted to direct car companies.

DS