Genuine Shop Manuals Standard Equipment on All Cars

"Kevin" > wrote in message
news
> Personally in all the people I know I have never heard of someone having a
> faulty computer.
>

It happens, it's just not a common thing....... except in the older GM cars.
Bob

mike gray wrote:

> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>>
>> I would guess that at least 95% of 4+ year old cars have no computer
>> problems. Sensor problems are another issue, but the ECUs are quite
>> reliable. And you said computer several times so it is obvious you
>> are talking about the ECU/ECM.
>
>
> Obvious to you, perhaps. To me, a computer without i/o is like a gear
> without teeth.
>

Obvious to anyone who knows anything about computers. Even including
all of the sensors, your initial claim that every car older than 4 years
is still a pile of horse excrement, however, certainly the totality of
sensors plus computer is less reliable than the computer alone, but not
nearly as bad as you assert.


Matt

mike gray wrote:

> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>>
>> I would guess that at least 95% of 4+ year old cars have no computer
>> problems. Sensor problems are another issue, but the ECUs are quite
>> reliable. And you said computer several times so it is obvious you
>> are talking about the ECU/ECM.
>
>
> Obvious to you, perhaps. To me, a computer without i/o is like a gear
> without teeth.
>

Obvious to anyone who knows anything about computers. Even including
all of the sensors, your initial claim that every car older than 4 years
is still a pile of horse excrement, however, certainly the totality of
sensors plus computer is less reliable than the computer alone, but not
nearly as bad as you assert.


Matt

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> mike gray > writes:
>
>
>>Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I would guess that at least 95% of 4+ year old cars have no computer
>>>problems. Sensor problems are another issue, but the ECUs are quite
>>>reliable. And you said computer several times so it is obvious you
>>>are talking about the ECU/ECM.
>>
>>Obvious to you, perhaps. To me, a computer without i/o is like a gear
>>without teeth.
>
>
> So when you said "faulty computer systems" you meant "a fault
> somewhere in some system either feeding or fed by the computer, but
> quite possibly not directly related to the computer itself in any way
> shape or form?" And later when you said "Fortunately for most folks,
> the ECU can deliver all sorts of bogus data with impunity" you didn't
> actually mean the ECU?

Yes, he sounds a lot like Bill "it depends on what the meaning of is is"
Clinton.


Matt

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> mike gray > writes:
>
>
>>Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I would guess that at least 95% of 4+ year old cars have no computer
>>>problems. Sensor problems are another issue, but the ECUs are quite
>>>reliable. And you said computer several times so it is obvious you
>>>are talking about the ECU/ECM.
>>
>>Obvious to you, perhaps. To me, a computer without i/o is like a gear
>>without teeth.
>
>
> So when you said "faulty computer systems" you meant "a fault
> somewhere in some system either feeding or fed by the computer, but
> quite possibly not directly related to the computer itself in any way
> shape or form?" And later when you said "Fortunately for most folks,
> the ECU can deliver all sorts of bogus data with impunity" you didn't
> actually mean the ECU?

Yes, he sounds a lot like Bill "it depends on what the meaning of is is"
Clinton.


Matt

Kevin wrote:

> Personally in all the people I know I have never heard of someone having a
> faulty computer.
>
>
>
>
> "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
> n.umich.edu...
>
>>On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, mike gray wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>>
>>1) My 1971 Volvo 164's original computer is not faulty.
>>2) My 1989 Dodge pickup's original computer is not faulty.
>>3) My 1992 Dodge Spirit's original computer is not faulty.
>>4) My relative's 2000 Subaru's original computer is not faulty.
>>5) My relative's 1991 Plymouth Acclaim's original computer is not faulty.
>>6) My relative's 1991 Nissan Maxima's original computer is not faulty.
>>7) My relative's 1992 Toyota Camry's original computer is not faulty.
>>8) My 1985 Volvo 245's original computer wasn't faulty when sold in '03.
>>
>>Shall we go on, or have I made my point?
>
>
>
When you work in the service cars end of things you quickly find out
that many people are being tricked in to replacing computers then, and
at ridiculous labour, parts pricing, honestly I'm glad I'm on the right
side of this game, but feel bad for the unsuspecting. If i wrote a book
on all I know about rip-offs and people would be ashamed of being taken
by the crooks they might actually by such a book (well, another book, as
many are in print now) that I could - well maybe retire, LOL Yeah right!
I guess we are sitting ducks when we simply don't know about our cars? I
use "we" because I've been ripped off like many and even by co-workers,
just not as badly as strangers get ripped.

Nope I'm not gonna tell you where, I still need to put some bread at the
dinner table, I just know I'm not doing the ripping directly, I enjoy a
good night sleep, well, most days.

Danil
Ps look folks, find a good honest mechanic, become his best loyal
customer and you'll probably do alright at the end of the day. You slut
around with your car problems and they will screw you, because they will
see that you are screwing them over too. I hear it every day "Can you
have your mechanic look at my car? I just had the brakes done and I
think they did something wrong" So my guy is supposed to tell them what
another shop did wrong (and for free)
PPS I joined in here at this point and didn't read after or before but I
think I know what the general idea is - and yes I agree, but maybe even
a complete shop manual set for every car model can't be as valuable as a
a solid relationship between honest mechanic and car owner who looks
after his/her car.

Kevin wrote:

> Personally in all the people I know I have never heard of someone having a
> faulty computer.
>
>
>
>
> "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
> n.umich.edu...
>
>>On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, mike gray wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>>
>>1) My 1971 Volvo 164's original computer is not faulty.
>>2) My 1989 Dodge pickup's original computer is not faulty.
>>3) My 1992 Dodge Spirit's original computer is not faulty.
>>4) My relative's 2000 Subaru's original computer is not faulty.
>>5) My relative's 1991 Plymouth Acclaim's original computer is not faulty.
>>6) My relative's 1991 Nissan Maxima's original computer is not faulty.
>>7) My relative's 1992 Toyota Camry's original computer is not faulty.
>>8) My 1985 Volvo 245's original computer wasn't faulty when sold in '03.
>>
>>Shall we go on, or have I made my point?
>
>
>
When you work in the service cars end of things you quickly find out
that many people are being tricked in to replacing computers then, and
at ridiculous labour, parts pricing, honestly I'm glad I'm on the right
side of this game, but feel bad for the unsuspecting. If i wrote a book
on all I know about rip-offs and people would be ashamed of being taken
by the crooks they might actually by such a book (well, another book, as
many are in print now) that I could - well maybe retire, LOL Yeah right!
I guess we are sitting ducks when we simply don't know about our cars? I
use "we" because I've been ripped off like many and even by co-workers,
just not as badly as strangers get ripped.

Nope I'm not gonna tell you where, I still need to put some bread at the
dinner table, I just know I'm not doing the ripping directly, I enjoy a
good night sleep, well, most days.

Danil
Ps look folks, find a good honest mechanic, become his best loyal
customer and you'll probably do alright at the end of the day. You slut
around with your car problems and they will screw you, because they will
see that you are screwing them over too. I hear it every day "Can you
have your mechanic look at my car? I just had the brakes done and I
think they did something wrong" So my guy is supposed to tell them what
another shop did wrong (and for free)
PPS I joined in here at this point and didn't read after or before but I
think I know what the general idea is - and yes I agree, but maybe even
a complete shop manual set for every car model can't be as valuable as a
a solid relationship between honest mechanic and car owner who looks
after his/her car.

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> So when you said "faulty computer systems" you meant "a fault
> somewhere in some system either feeding or fed by the computer, but
> quite possibly not directly related to the computer itself in any way
> shape or form?" And later when you said "Fortunately for most folks,
> the ECU can deliver all sorts of bogus data with impunity" you didn't
> actually mean the ECU?

I try to be a little more trenchant than that.

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> So when you said "faulty computer systems" you meant "a fault
> somewhere in some system either feeding or fed by the computer, but
> quite possibly not directly related to the computer itself in any way
> shape or form?" And later when you said "Fortunately for most folks,
> the ECU can deliver all sorts of bogus data with impunity" you didn't
> actually mean the ECU?

I try to be a little more trenchant than that.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, mike gray wrote:

> > So when you said "faulty computer systems" you meant "a fault
> > somewhere in some system either feeding or fed by the computer, but
> > quite possibly not directly related to the computer itself in any way
> > shape or form?" And later when you said "Fortunately for most folks,
> > the ECU can deliver all sorts of bogus data with impunity" you didn't
> > actually mean the ECU?

> I try to be a little more trenchant than that.
^^^^^^^^^

You've misspelt "incoherent".