Genuine Shop Manuals Standard Equipment on All Cars

"Mark Olson" > wrote in message
...
>
> Are you saying that Ford won't release repair info to their UK customers,
> and Ford's reason for this is somehow related to the behavior of Ford's
> customers in the USA?
>
> I'm not following you at all. I'm in the US and I can purchase the
> genuine Ford factory workshop manuals and/or CDs (from Helm, Inc.) without
> any restrictions (other than the cost).

I know here in the US there's a law that says that they can't not sell the
service manuals to people wanting to buy them. I'm not sure about overseas
though.

What I think he's trying to say though is over here people'll hurt
themselves because of themselves working on the car then sue the
manufacturer so they just don't sell them.

"Ol' Duffer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Here's my idea: Since most vehicles seem to be going toward
> onboard computers anyway, why not install a LAN port in the
> dashboard with a web server applet and burn the manual files
> into flash memory?

I suggested exactly this about a year ago. But why stop at the
manual, get rid of the OBD-II port and just go to an ethernet
port. It's a given that the ethernet controllers today are far
cheaper than the OBD-II port controllers. And if you put a
webserver on it, no need for an external scan tool either.

Ted

"Ol' Duffer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Here's my idea: Since most vehicles seem to be going toward
> onboard computers anyway, why not install a LAN port in the
> dashboard with a web server applet and burn the manual files
> into flash memory?

I suggested exactly this about a year ago. But why stop at the
manual, get rid of the OBD-II port and just go to an ethernet
port. It's a given that the ethernet controllers today are far
cheaper than the OBD-II port controllers. And if you put a
webserver on it, no need for an external scan tool either.

Ted

So why not include a manual in your 'bargaining' when you purchase a new
vechicle. Haggle for your best price, then tell the salesman, "oh, throw in a
manual too, then I'll buy it".
JR

SgtSilicon wrote:

> Well said Bill. This is a great example of why free market should
> prevail. I do like the idea of manuals being included with the
> vehicles, I just think making it a law is a bad idea.
>
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:38:24 -0500, Bill Putney >
> wrote:
>
> >Nomen Nescio wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm waiting now for the complaint even $1.50 is a lot on a $30,000 car.
> >> Okay! Then we need a quick and dirty FEDERAL LAW MANDATING CD-ROM manuals
> >> in the interests of public safety. Improperly repaired cars are dangerous
> >> to your health and painful to your pocketbook as well. Let them charge
> >> $30,001.50 after the passage of this badly needed law...
> >
> >You are ignoring an important factor. The $1.50 number you are giving
> >is the **recurring** cost (how much $$ it takes to procure the blank
> >disc and burn and pacakge the finished product or contract someone to do
> >same on a mass scale). You have failed to factor in the non-recurring
> >cost of creating the information and formating that goes into the manual
> >(the up-front development cost that comes right off the corporate bottom
> >line before the recurring cost of the first unit is recovered).
> >
> >Pass a law that the manual has to be supplied with each vehicle, and the
> >development cost of the manual amortized over each vehicle will be a lot
> >more than $1.50 - and a lot less than the $100 that you pay for a
> >typical FSM now on an individual basis. But at least now, that moderate
> >per-unit cost is not being forced on those who have no desire or use for
> >it. It is being borne by those who both want it and are getting value
> >for what they are paying. Mandate it with every car, and the person who
> >can't even spell FSM will be forced to pay for something that is useless
> >to them.
> >
> >IOW, pass that law, and the person for whom the manual is a useless item
> >is subsidizing the one who will really use and benefit from it. As it
> >is now, the total cost is carried by those who are getting something of
> >value that they, by their freedom of will, are willing to pay for.
> >
> >One other aspect: The information that the manufacturer puts in the
> >manual is intellectual property. They can charge big bucks for it or
> >give it away. The customer has the right to buy the competitor's
> >product instead if they choose to punish the manufacturer who they think
> >is gouging them. IOW, if one manufaturer wants $600 or $700 for an FSM,
> >which some in fact do, and another wants only $92, I can make that a
> >zero, small, big, or sole factor in my decision on whose product to
> >purchase. It's called a free-market system.
> >
> >Bill Putney
> >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> >adddress with the letter 'x')

So why not include a manual in your 'bargaining' when you purchase a new
vechicle. Haggle for your best price, then tell the salesman, "oh, throw in a
manual too, then I'll buy it".
JR

SgtSilicon wrote:

> Well said Bill. This is a great example of why free market should
> prevail. I do like the idea of manuals being included with the
> vehicles, I just think making it a law is a bad idea.
>
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:38:24 -0500, Bill Putney >
> wrote:
>
> >Nomen Nescio wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm waiting now for the complaint even $1.50 is a lot on a $30,000 car.
> >> Okay! Then we need a quick and dirty FEDERAL LAW MANDATING CD-ROM manuals
> >> in the interests of public safety. Improperly repaired cars are dangerous
> >> to your health and painful to your pocketbook as well. Let them charge
> >> $30,001.50 after the passage of this badly needed law...
> >
> >You are ignoring an important factor. The $1.50 number you are giving
> >is the **recurring** cost (how much $$ it takes to procure the blank
> >disc and burn and pacakge the finished product or contract someone to do
> >same on a mass scale). You have failed to factor in the non-recurring
> >cost of creating the information and formating that goes into the manual
> >(the up-front development cost that comes right off the corporate bottom
> >line before the recurring cost of the first unit is recovered).
> >
> >Pass a law that the manual has to be supplied with each vehicle, and the
> >development cost of the manual amortized over each vehicle will be a lot
> >more than $1.50 - and a lot less than the $100 that you pay for a
> >typical FSM now on an individual basis. But at least now, that moderate
> >per-unit cost is not being forced on those who have no desire or use for
> >it. It is being borne by those who both want it and are getting value
> >for what they are paying. Mandate it with every car, and the person who
> >can't even spell FSM will be forced to pay for something that is useless
> >to them.
> >
> >IOW, pass that law, and the person for whom the manual is a useless item
> >is subsidizing the one who will really use and benefit from it. As it
> >is now, the total cost is carried by those who are getting something of
> >value that they, by their freedom of will, are willing to pay for.
> >
> >One other aspect: The information that the manufacturer puts in the
> >manual is intellectual property. They can charge big bucks for it or
> >give it away. The customer has the right to buy the competitor's
> >product instead if they choose to punish the manufacturer who they think
> >is gouging them. IOW, if one manufaturer wants $600 or $700 for an FSM,
> >which some in fact do, and another wants only $92, I can make that a
> >zero, small, big, or sole factor in my decision on whose product to
> >purchase. It's called a free-market system.
> >
> >Bill Putney
> >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> >adddress with the letter 'x')

> mike gray wrote:
> >
> > Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....

It's funny how this myth lingers on.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer

> mike gray wrote:
> >
> > Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....

It's funny how this myth lingers on.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer

"Mark Olson" > wrote in message
...
> Are you saying that Ford won't release repair info to their UK customers,
> and Ford's reason for this is somehow related to the behavior of Ford's
> customers in the USA?
>


Certainly in the UK parts staff are instructed not to 'advise' on fitting
etc. I'm sure that Ford would not put the blame on the American buyers.
Rather, they would quote global instances of damage claims. We all know
where the 'sue people' have their reservation though - don't we ?
--
For Welsh Military Flying visit .......
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/V-A-S/

"Mark Olson" > wrote in message
...
> Are you saying that Ford won't release repair info to their UK customers,
> and Ford's reason for this is somehow related to the behavior of Ford's
> customers in the USA?
>


Certainly in the UK parts staff are instructed not to 'advise' on fitting
etc. I'm sure that Ford would not put the blame on the American buyers.
Rather, they would quote global instances of damage claims. We all know
where the 'sue people' have their reservation though - don't we ?
--
For Welsh Military Flying visit .......
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/V-A-S/

mike gray totally exxagerated:
>
> Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>

How about 8 Ford EECIV cars over the last ten years...ALL atleast 8 years
without a failure.

Meaning..I've never had one ECM fail. Plus I know of one case where I saw
first hand a repair shop replace a good one so he could charge for it.

--
- Yes, I'm a crusty old geezer curmudgeon.. deal with it! -