Crank Shaft Bolt (Which Way)

I am changing the head gasket on a '88 Honda Accord. Which damn way
does the crank shaft bolt rotate. I am under the impression that it is
a reverse thread bolt. Can any one confirm this. Also looking for
tips on breaking the crank shaft bolt loose. The hole screwdriver in
the "ring gear" is giving me hell. I have a LARGE screwdriver for the
job.
Thanks
Robert Baum

army guy wrote:
> I am changing the head gasket on a '88 Honda Accord. Which damn way
> does the crank shaft bolt rotate. I am under the impression that it is
> a reverse thread bolt. Can any one confirm this. Also looking for
> tips on breaking the crank shaft bolt loose. The hole screwdriver in
> the "ring gear" is giving me hell. I have a LARGE screwdriver for the
> job.
> Thanks
> Robert Baum
>
1. google this group for /extensive/ discussion/advice.
2. do NOT try the ring gear - you'll break teeth and that's EXPENSIVE.
honda bolts are /way/ too tight for that trick.
3. it's standard r/h thread.
4. get the proper tools for the job - you'll be glad you did.

It is right hand threaded, so the usual "rightie-tightie and
lefty-loosy" applies.

You have a few options to loosen it:

-- Impact wrench, at least 500 ft-lbf rating. I'm told Home
Depot rents them. But reports here indicate this does not
always work.

-- Ask your local mechanic to free it with his impact
wrench, for a ten buck tip. Tighten "just enough" for the
drive home. Free up again.

-- Make a tool for about $15 and a half-day's of labor,
tops. See http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id6.html
for instructions and a few more links. Look over your pulley
carefully, and take measurements as needed, to make a tool
like that at the site above that fits properly.

I don't think a tool can be easily purchased for this
particular pulley. I was checking around last week when
someone else posted and couldn't find one that appeared to
match.

IIRC, your pulley has the power steering belt "lip," so use
the hose pieces etc. as described at the site above for
pulley category (2). Also IIRC, your bolt is one of the
smaller diameter ones, so an impact wrench might work just
fine.

The screwdriver in the ring gear bit is not generally
recommended, per a few web sites.




"army guy" > wrote
> I am changing the head gasket on a '88 Honda Accord.
Which damn way
> does the crank shaft bolt rotate. I am under the
impression that it is
> a reverse thread bolt. Can any one confirm this. Also
looking for
> tips on breaking the crank shaft bolt loose. The hole
screwdriver in
> the "ring gear" is giving me hell. I have a LARGE
screwdriver for the
> job.
> Thanks
> Robert Baum
>

Elle wrote:
> It is right hand threaded, so the usual "rightie-tightie and
> lefty-loosy" applies.
>
> You have a few options to loosen it:
>
> -- Impact wrench, at least 500 ft-lbf rating. I'm told Home
> Depot rents them. But reports here indicate this does not
> always work.
>
> -- Ask your local mechanic to free it with his impact
> wrench, for a ten buck tip. Tighten "just enough" for the
> drive home. Free up again.
>
> -- Make a tool for about $15 and a half-day's of labor,
> tops. See http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id6.html
> for instructions and a few more links. Look over your pulley
> carefully, and take measurements as needed, to make a tool
> like that at the site above that fits properly.

i watched a guy use a tool like that in my junk yard visit yesterday.
he broke out the web between two sets of holes on the pulley wheel.
presumably he was trying to get a replacement for one he'd broken
before. the proper tool is the way to go.

>
> I don't think a tool can be easily purchased for this
> particular pulley. I was checking around last week when
> someone else posted and couldn't find one that appeared to
> match.
>
> IIRC, your pulley has the power steering belt "lip," so use
> the hose pieces etc. as described at the site above for
> pulley category (2). Also IIRC, your bolt is one of the
> smaller diameter ones, so an impact wrench might work just
> fine.
>
> The screwdriver in the ring gear bit is not generally
> recommended, per a few web sites.
>
>
>
>
> "army guy" > wrote
>
>>I am changing the head gasket on a '88 Honda Accord.
>
> Which damn way
>
>>does the crank shaft bolt rotate. I am under the
>
> impression that it is
>
>>a reverse thread bolt. Can any one confirm this. Also
>
> looking for
>
>>tips on breaking the crank shaft bolt loose. The hole
>
> screwdriver in
>
>>the "ring gear" is giving me hell. I have a LARGE
>
> screwdriver for the
>
>>job.
>>Thanks
>>Robert Baum
>>
>
>
>

"jim beam" > wrote
> Elle wrote:
> > It is right hand threaded, so the usual "rightie-tightie
and
> > lefty-loosy" applies.
> >
> > You have a few options to loosen it:
> >
> > -- Impact wrench, at least 500 ft-lbf rating. I'm told
Home
> > Depot rents them. But reports here indicate this does
not
> > always work.
> >
> > -- Ask your local mechanic to free it with his impact
> > wrench, for a ten buck tip. Tighten "just enough" for
the
> > drive home. Free up again.
> >
> > -- Make a tool for about $15 and a half-day's of labor,
> > tops. See
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id6.html
> > for instructions and a few more links. Look over your
pulley
> > carefully, and take measurements as needed, to make a
tool
> > like that at the site above that fits properly.
>
> i watched a guy use a tool like that in my junk yard visit
yesterday.
> he broke out the web between two sets of holes on the
pulley wheel.
> presumably he was trying to get a replacement for one he'd
broken
> before. the proper tool is the way to go.

He's not using the tool correctly, or he didn't snug it up.
Or perhaps temperatures were too cold, and the pulley was
fatigued. Yada, cause those tools are supposed to be able to
take the force of such a tool, by design. It's the only
reason they're there.

The homemade design is similar to the one would buy; it
transmits/transfers yada the torque to the pulley holes.
Problem is I don't see such a tool available today for
purchase for the 1988 Accord.

I have used mine several times now. Works great. Another
regular here has used such a tool many a time, too.

"Elle" > wrote
> He's not using the tool correctly, or he didn't snug it
up.
> Or perhaps temperatures were too cold, and the pulley was
> fatigued. Yada, cause those tools

Post-o. Put "pulley holes" in place of "tools" above.

> are supposed to be able to
> take the force of such a tool, by design. It's the only
> reason they're there.
>
> The homemade design is similar to the one would buy; it
> transmits/transfers yada the torque to the pulley holes.
> Problem is I don't see such a tool available today for
> purchase for the 1988 Accord.
>
> I have used mine several times now. Works great. Another
> regular here has used such a tool many a time, too.
>
>

Elle wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote
>
>>Elle wrote:
>>
>>>It is right hand threaded, so the usual "rightie-tightie
>
> and
>
>>>lefty-loosy" applies.
>>>
>>>You have a few options to loosen it:
>>>
>>>-- Impact wrench, at least 500 ft-lbf rating. I'm told
>
> Home
>
>>>Depot rents them. But reports here indicate this does
>
> not
>
>>>always work.
>>>
>>>-- Ask your local mechanic to free it with his impact
>>>wrench, for a ten buck tip. Tighten "just enough" for
>
> the
>
>>>drive home. Free up again.
>>>
>>>-- Make a tool for about $15 and a half-day's of labor,
>>>tops. See
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id6.html
>
>>>for instructions and a few more links. Look over your
>
> pulley
>
>>>carefully, and take measurements as needed, to make a
>
> tool
>
>>>like that at the site above that fits properly.
>>
>>i watched a guy use a tool like that in my junk yard visit
>
> yesterday.
>
>>he broke out the web between two sets of holes on the
>
> pulley wheel.
>
>>presumably he was trying to get a replacement for one he'd
>
> broken
>
>>before. the proper tool is the way to go.
>
>
> He's not using the tool correctly, or he didn't snug it up.
> Or perhaps temperatures were too cold, and the pulley was
> fatigued. Yada, cause those tools are supposed to be able to
> take the force of such a tool, by design. It's the only
> reason they're there.
>
> The homemade design is similar to the one would buy; it
> transmits/transfers yada the torque to the pulley holes.
> Problem is I don't see such a tool available today for
> purchase for the 1988 Accord.
>
> I have used mine several times now. Works great. Another
> regular here has used such a tool many a time, too.
>
>
completely disagree. consider the stress orientations of the factory
tool. the holes only resist rotation as "support" of the load is via
the socket on the bolt. with your tool they resist both rotation /and/
the leverage of non-radial loading - there is no "support".

go to a junk yard some time. pulleys that have been broken using your
kind of tool are very common. always two adjacent holes and extensive
collateral damage. i'll take may camera to the junk yard some time if
you want confirmation.

"jim beam" > wrote
> Elle wrote:
> > "jim beam" > wrote
> >
> >>Elle wrote:
> >>
> >>>It is right hand threaded, so the usual
"rightie-tightie
> >
> > and
> >
> >>>lefty-loosy" applies.
> >>>
> >>>You have a few options to loosen it:
> >>>
> >>>-- Impact wrench, at least 500 ft-lbf rating. I'm told
> >
> > Home
> >
> >>>Depot rents them. But reports here indicate this does
> >
> > not
> >
> >>>always work.
> >>>
> >>>-- Ask your local mechanic to free it with his impact
> >>>wrench, for a ten buck tip. Tighten "just enough" for
> >
> > the
> >
> >>>drive home. Free up again.
> >>>
> >>>-- Make a tool for about $15 and a half-day's of labor,
> >>>tops. See
> >
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id6.html
> >
> >>>for instructions and a few more links. Look over your
> >
> > pulley
> >
> >>>carefully, and take measurements as needed, to make a
> >
> > tool
> >
> >>>like that at the site above that fits properly.
> >>
> >>i watched a guy use a tool like that in my junk yard
visit
> >
> > yesterday.
> >
> >>he broke out the web between two sets of holes on the
> >
> > pulley wheel.
> >
> >>presumably he was trying to get a replacement for one
he'd
> >
> > broken
> >
> >>before. the proper tool is the way to go.
> >
> >
> > He's not using the tool correctly, or he didn't snug it
up.
> > Or perhaps temperatures were too cold, and the pulley
was
> > fatigued. Yada, cause those tools are supposed to be
able to
> > take the force of such a tool, by design. It's the only
> > reason they're there.
> >
> > The homemade design is similar to the one would buy; it
> > transmits/transfers yada the torque to the pulley holes.
> > Problem is I don't see such a tool available today for
> > purchase for the 1988 Accord.
> >
> > I have used mine several times now. Works great. Another
> > regular here has used such a tool many a time, too.
> >
> >
> completely disagree. consider the stress orientations of
the factory
> tool. the holes only resist rotation as "support" of the
load is via
> the socket on the bolt.

I can't figure out what you're trying to say. Yours is
horrible writing. It wastes a lot of time. Tack on that I
sense you have never had a course in statics, much less
strength of materials, or you didn't understand the material
well if you did take these courses, and we have a nuclear
holocaust in communications.

Which "load"? The socket has a force being applied to it
from the wrench, but then the bolt itself is also applying a
force in the opposite direction to the socket.

Here's what is happening:
The commercial tool has a prong that goes through one of the
pulley holes. The commercial tool, like the homemade one,
must be supported against something, such as the ground or
maybe the body of the car. In both instances, the holes in
the pulley are pushing against the prong or the bolt in the
same manner.

> with your tool they resist both rotation /and/
> the leverage of non-radial loading - there is no
"support".
>
> go to a junk yard some time. pulleys that have been
broken using your
> kind of tool are very common. always two adjacent holes

My tool doesn't insert into two adjacent holes, for one
thing. For another, of course any breakage, with the
commercial tool or a homemade one, is going to be at two
holes, because of the way the forces are applied during
rotation.

> and extensive
> collateral damage. i'll take may camera to the junk yard
some time if
> you want confirmation.

I suspect what you're seeing explains why the hole design is
no longer used. The flaw in the hole design of pulley would
be an argument against both the commercial tool and the
homemade tool. You want to make that argument, that's fine.
It is speculation but absolutely worthwhile speculation. IF
there are as many pulleys out there with busted holes as you
say.

I have yet to see a report, from anyone other than you, of
breaking the pulley as you describe. I'm not saying it
doesn't happen. I'm saying you're over-reacting. Again.

Just like you experienced yesterday, all tools should be
used with care. Hurting one's self as badly you did tells me
this was as much operator error as it was any problem with
the tool. You're applying a high enough amount of force to
cause something to go flying (your body? or the socket?),
without anticipating something suddenly loosening, after how
many years of experience? Phew...

<snip unfocused sniping>
let's get to the point:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/80617642/

examine this pic.

now, draw a line from the center of the pulley to one hole - that's a
radial line for the pulley. any force exerted between the center, a
hole and the exertion point must by definition be tangential to the
circle formed by the holes. with the correct tool, any twisting of the
holding dowel at the hole is mitigated by having a large stiff pivot
mounted at the bolt [via the driving socket] and by having a bolt head
with an extended hex [which it does].

/these/ holes on the other hand, as would be expected from drawing a
straight line between the two broken holes and the exertion point, do
NOT evidence force wholly applied tangential to the hole circle. this
leaves the web having to handle a mix of radial /and/ tangential loads,
AND the full twisting loads of the dowels used. the results of all 3
loading modes we see here.

army guy wrote:
> I am changing the head gasket on a '88 Honda Accord. Which damn way
> does the crank shaft bolt rotate. I am under the impression that it is
> a reverse thread bolt. Can any one confirm this. Also looking for
> tips on breaking the crank shaft bolt loose. The hole screwdriver in
> the "ring gear" is giving me hell. I have a LARGE screwdriver for the
> job.
> Thanks
> Robert Baum

CAUTION: IT TAKES A HELL OF A LOT OF TORQUE TO REMOVE THE CRANKSHAFT
PULLY BOLT. IF YOU DONT SECURE THE PULLY CORRECTLY, AND I EMPHASIZE
CORRECTLY, YOU RISK EXPENSIVE DAMAGE. THINK OF THE TORQUE GENERATED
WHEN YOU PUT A 4 FOOT CHEATER ON A BREAKER BAR AND GIVE IT A HEAFTY
TUG! I WEIGH 210-lbs AND I NEEDED A 4-FOOT CHEATER PIPE TO GET MINE
LOOSE. DONT EVEN CONSIDER ANYTHING SMALLER THAT 1/2 INCH DRIVE SOCKETS
AND EXTENSIONS.

I just removed the crankshaft pully on my 99 civic this weekend. Built
a custom tool to hold the crankshaft pully and it worked perfectly. I
will try to describe that tool now:

My 99 civic crankshaft pully has a large (approx 2 inch "diameter")
six-sided void concentric with the crankshaft bolt. If you had a large
2" diameter nut, you could slip it inside this void and still be able
to thread your socket through the center of this large nut. So if you
could keep this large nut from turning, you could then remove the
crankshaft pully bolt.

If your honda has the same hex-shaped features on the crankshaft pully,
let me know and I will send you a pic of the tool I used. I live 30 min
south of Kansas City: you can have the tool if you'd like.

Chris