New initiate to OIL CHANGE CLUB

SMS wrote:
>
> Here's the bottom line:
> 1. Never use a non-API certified oil in your vehicle.
========

SMS, while I understand the perspective you're coming
from in recommending API-certified oils, the API standard
is not the be-all end-all.

Red Line is another great oil that is /not/ API-
certified. And I think we've all heard of Red Line.
They advertise on national tv regularly. Like Amsoil,
Red Line is hard to find. You'll likely have to order
it online, or contact a distributor/re-seller.
In addition to RedLineOil.com, you can find some at
Jegs.com and Summit, too.

As good as the API and ACEA standards are, European
automobile manufacturers like VW/Audi issue oil standards
that extend beyond API SM and ACEA, for example.
So again, API and its European counterpart ACEA are not the be-all,
end-all.

Folks with performance engines in $200,000 sports cars
put non-certified API oils like Red Line, Amsoil, and
RLI into their motors all the time. I will be trying
Amsoil next, followed by RLI. I've heard just incredible
things about RLI (Renewable Lube, Inc.), and can barely
wait for my Camry to guzzle down some of that
sweet juice :-)

Here's a testimonial from Doctor A. E. Haas, the author
of that motor oils FAQ I've posted a link to several
times:

Folks often ask what oil/oils have made your engine
more quiet. Dr. Haas answers:

"I changed the OEM Agip 5W-40 to 0W-30 Mobil 1 in the
Ferrari Murcielago and the engine was more quiet. Later
I changed to 5W-20 Red Line and it was even more quiet.

"Since my move to 0W-20 RLI the engine is now silent.
Even my wife who did not want me to change the Red Line
she loves, noticed the silence.

"The Enzo went from the 60 grade Shell to 0W-30
Castrol GC and no major difference was noted. After going
to the 0W-30 RLI it is now almost silent, a big difference.

In general the use of a thicker grade will muffle sounds.
This does not tell you anything about the oil's function.
But going thinner and being more quiet can only be from
increased oil function."
[End Quote]

By function, I suppose Dr. Haas means higher quality and
better-made. Just because an oil has API-certification
does not mean it's high quality. Dr. Haas put lower
viscosity (or so-called thinner) oils into his motors
but the motors got progressively quieter, just the opposite
of what one would expect to happen. So we can safely
assume the oils are higher quality and better-made, even
though they're not API-certified.

For the average guy who doesn't know what he's doing, I
agree with you: he should stick to only API-certified oils.
But for those who do just a little reading, learning, and
research, they can choose high-quality non-API
certified oils :-)

Someone online mentioned they're using Red Line 5w-30 in
a 2005 Toyota Sequoia.

The Sequoia must still be under drive train warranty,
and Red Line is not API-certified ;-) but it is a fine
oil, much better than many API-certified oils. To quote Dr. Haas
again:

"I changed the OEM Agip 5W-40 to 0W-30 Mobil 1 in the
Lamborghini Murcielago and the engine was more quiet.
Later I changed to 5W-20 Red Line and it was even more quiet.

"Since my move to 0W-20 RLI the engine is now silent.
Even my wife who did not want me to change the
Red Line she loves, noticed the silence."

Incidentally, I need to make a correction. In my
original posting I mistakenly described the Murcielago
as a Ferrari; it's a Lamborghini. I didn't know what
a Murcielago was, and thought others might not too.
I figured it was either a Ferrari or a Lambo, so
I added the descriptor. In the earlier post, I should
have placed [Ferrari] in [brackets] to indicate it was
my edited addition.

I've found lots of mentions of folks using high-quality
non-API certified oils in vehicles that are *still* under
drive train warranty, even a vehicle as staid and new as
an '08 Sienna. I guess they're not worried about the
oils possibly violating warranty (and some of the oils
even differ in viscosity from the manual).

I, however, will be sticking with the same 30-weight
as recommended in my manual--just switching up from
5w-30 to 0w-30 for better cold starts and warm-ups.

By the way, the IP number you see in my headers that
never changes is a UNIX shell account located in
Nebraska that I log into from Missouri. I log into
that Nebraska UNIX account no matter what computer
I'm at.

....'till next time. - Built_Well

Guess what I saw today at Walmart. One-quart bottles of 0w-30
Mobil 1 that had the following exact sentence written in big
letters at the top of the bottle:

"Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"

This is the new green bottle of Mobil 1 with the green
top; the viscosity is 0w-30. Some of you have probably
seen it.

I don't want to good-naturedly raz you Ray O :-) but several
months ago when I first said I was considering using 0w-30,
you were seriously cautioning me against using any grade
other than the 5w-30 grade called for in my manual. Don't
even try 0w-30 was your sentiment.

Well, Ray O, it looks like Mobil 1 agrees with the good
Doctor Haas, who has been advocating the use of 0w-30 oils
in place of 5w-30 and 10w-30 for a long time. I've mentioned
Dr. Haas's FAQ here many times, and have provided a link.

I'll quote the *0w-30* Mobil 1 bottle again:

"Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"

[chuckle] :-P

Don't feel bad Ray O. There's no doubt that you are an
expert when it comes to Toyotas and an expert when it comes
to mechanics, with all the certifications you have worked
hard to earn, but you are not a tribologist/oil expert :-P

Nobody can be an expert at everything, even though you come close.

"Built_Well" > wrote in message
...
>
> Guess what I saw today at Walmart. One-quart bottles of 0w-30
> Mobil 1 that had the following exact sentence written in big
> letters at the top of the bottle:
>
> "Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"
>
> This is the new green bottle of Mobil 1 with the green
> top; the viscosity is 0w-30. Some of you have probably
> seen it.
>
> I don't want to good-naturedly raz you Ray O :-) but several
> months ago when I first said I was considering using 0w-30,
> you were seriously cautioning me against using any grade
> other than the 5w-30 grade called for in my manual. Don't
> even try 0w-30 was your sentiment.
>
> Well, Ray O, it looks like Mobil 1 agrees with the good
> Doctor Haas, who has been advocating the use of 0w-30 oils
> in place of 5w-30 and 10w-30 for a long time. I've mentioned
> Dr. Haas's FAQ here many times, and have provided a link.
>
> I'll quote the *0w-30* Mobil 1 bottle again:
>
> "Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"
>
> [chuckle] :-P
>
> Don't feel bad Ray O. There's no doubt that you are an
> expert when it comes to Toyotas and an expert when it comes
> to mechanics, with all the certifications you have worked
> hard to earn, but you are not a tribologist/oil expert :-P
>
> Nobody can be an expert at everything, even though you come close.

I'll have to check out Mobil 1 0W-30's claims some time. A blanket
statement like that implies that they have studied the warranty requirements
for every automaker, for every engine, for every model year, which is
difficult to believe.


--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Built_Well" ...
>
> Guess what I saw today at Walmart. One-quart bottles of 0w-30
> Mobil 1 that had the following exact sentence written in big
> letters at the top of the bottle:
>
> "Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"
>
> This is the new green bottle of Mobil 1 with the green
> top; the viscosity is 0w-30. Some of you have probably
> seen it.
>
> I don't want to good-naturedly raz you Ray O :-) but several
> months ago when I first said I was considering using 0w-30,
> you were seriously cautioning me against using any grade
> other than the 5w-30 grade called for in my manual. Don't
> even try 0w-30 was your sentiment.
>
> Well, Ray O, it looks like Mobil 1 agrees with the good
> Doctor Haas, who has been advocating the use of 0w-30 oils
> in place of 5w-30 and 10w-30 for a long time. I've mentioned
> Dr. Haas's FAQ here many times, and have provided a link.
>
> I'll quote the *0w-30* Mobil 1 bottle again:
>
> "Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"
>
> [chuckle] :-P
>
> Don't feel bad Ray O. There's no doubt that you are an
> expert when it comes to Toyotas and an expert when it comes
> to mechanics, with all the certifications you have worked
> hard to earn, but you are not a tribologist/oil expert :-P
>
> Nobody can be an expert at everything, even though you come close.

So we are to now understand that you are now the mocking expert on oils
since you have read a few articles and oil cans?

SMS wrote:
>
> That [Wikipedia] entry is incorrect. Totally incorrect. Actually it's
> a bald-faced lie. The reason that Amsoil doesn't have
> certification on all of their products is simply because
> the products don't meet the API specification because
> they have too much ZDP and hence too much phosphorus (which
> is limited by the API because it poisons the catalytic
> converter).
=======================

SMS, you're a bit mistaken my good buddy. It's *not* API (the
American Petroleum Institute) that limits the phosphorous
level from ZDDP to 800 ppm (parts per million) in oil.

You may find this hard to believe, but there are oils that
have 1000 ppm and even 1200 ppm of phosphorous from ZDDP
that *are* certified by the API at the SM level: API SM certified.

For examples, Mobil 1 0w-40 has 1000 ppm of phosphorous and
it enjoys API SM certification. So does Mobil 1 5w-50.
Mobil 1 15w-50 even has 1200 ppm , and still it is API SM certified.

It's not API that restricts phosphorous. It's ILSAC in
their GF-4 specification.

This also calls into question the authenticity of the
email from the so-called Amsoil representative you
proffered, since the supposed Amsoil rep also says
it's the API that restricts phosphorous to 800 ppm.

If you need proof that the API does not restrict
phosphorous to 800 ppm, look at this .pdf document from
Mobil 1's web site that shows the ppm level of phosphorous
from ZDDP in their oils and also shows the certifications
each oil enjoys.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

I'll also quote the Mobil 1 site:

"The active ingredient that you are talking about is
phosphorus which is added thru a component called ZDDP.
For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-4 specification
the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than
800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has
been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other
emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers
are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect
both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1
products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos)
and can be used in engines in racing or high performance
applications; see the attached .PDF table at

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

And here's the link to the above Mobil 1 quotation:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...otor_Oils.aspx

Gee, for being experts, you guys sure do make a lot of
mistakes -- from the extreme dangers of 0w-30 to phantom
API regulations [chuckle] :-P

:-P

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:48:41 -0400, Tomes wrote:

> "Built_Well" ...
>>
>> Guess what I saw today at Walmart. One-quart bottles of 0w-30 Mobil 1
>> that had the following exact sentence written in big letters at the top
>> of the bottle:
>>
>> "Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"
>>
>> This is the new green bottle of Mobil 1 with the green top; the
>> viscosity is 0w-30. Some of you have probably seen it.
>>
>> I don't want to good-naturedly raz you Ray O :-) but several months ago
>> when I first said I was considering using 0w-30, you were seriously
>> cautioning me against using any grade other than the 5w-30 grade called
>> for in my manual. Don't even try 0w-30 was your sentiment.
>>
>> Well, Ray O, it looks like Mobil 1 agrees with the good Doctor Haas, who
>> has been advocating the use of 0w-30 oils in place of 5w-30 and 10w-30
>> for a long time. I've mentioned Dr. Haas's FAQ here many times, and
>> have provided a link.
>>
>> I'll quote the *0w-30* Mobil 1 bottle again:
>>
>> "Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"
>>
>> [chuckle] :-P
>>
>> Don't feel bad Ray O. There's no doubt that you are an expert when it
>> comes to Toyotas and an expert when it comes to mechanics, with all the
>> certifications you have worked hard to earn, but you are not a
>> tribologist/oil expert :-P
>>
>> Nobody can be an expert at everything, even though you come close.
>
> So we are to now understand that you are now the mocking expert on oils
> since you have read a few articles and oil cans?


This will get 20% better gas mileage, too!

http://www.tornadofuel-saver.com/?gc...FQOaFQodjWcrWg

Built_Well wrote:
> Guess what I saw today at Walmart. One-quart bottles of 0w-30
> Mobil 1 that had the following exact sentence written in big
> letters at the top of the bottle:
>
> "Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"
>
> This is the new green bottle of Mobil 1 with the green
> top; the viscosity is 0w-30. Some of you have probably
> seen it.
>
> I don't want to good-naturedly raz you Ray O :-) but several
> months ago when I first said I was considering using 0w-30,
> you were seriously cautioning me against using any grade
> other than the 5w-30 grade called for in my manual. Don't
> even try 0w-30 was your sentiment.

The vehicle manufacturer decides what meets the warranty requirements,
not Mobil, not Amsoil.

During the warranty period you don't want to give the manufacturer even
the slightest pretense on which to deny warranty service. If you do use
a non-API oil, or an oil other than what's stated in the manual, then
make sure there's no evidence of it on your receipts that you will have
to present in the case of any engine failure, whether the failure was
related to the oil or not.

SMS wrote:
> Built_Well wrote:
> > Guess what I saw today at Walmart. One-quart bottles of 0w-30
> > Mobil 1 that had the following exact sentence written in big
> > letters at the top of the bottle:
> >
> > "Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"
> >
> > This is the new green bottle of Mobil 1 with the green
> > top; the viscosity is 0w-30. Some of you have probably
> > seen it.
> >
> > I don't want to good-naturedly raz you Ray O :-) but several
> > months ago when I first said I was considering using 0w-30,
> > you were seriously cautioning me against using any grade
> > other than the 5w-30 grade called for in my manual. Don't
> > even try 0w-30 was your sentiment.
> ==============
> The vehicle manufacturer decides what meets the warranty requirements,
> not Mobil, not Amsoil.
>
> During the warranty period you don't want to give the manufacturer even
> the slightest pretense on which to deny warranty service. If you do use
> a non-API oil, or an oil other than what's stated in the manual, then
> make sure there's no evidence of it on your receipts that you will have
> to present in the case of any engine failure, whether the failure was
> related to the oil or not.
=============

That's good advice, SMS.

By the way, my local Toyota dealer is so busy, they're
advertising on TV now that the service department has
extended its hours. 7 AM to 7 PM now on some weekdays, and 7 AM to
4:30 PM on Saturdays.

That was the only thing the commercial advertised: longer
service hours. Didn't mention a thing about coming in
and buying a car--just said we got longer hours now!

Machens Toyota spent money just to let people know
they've extended hours.

"Built_Well" > wrote in message
...
> SMS wrote:
>> Built_Well wrote:
>> > Guess what I saw today at Walmart. One-quart bottles of 0w-30
>> > Mobil 1 that had the following exact sentence written in big
>> > letters at the top of the bottle:
>> >
>> > "Exceeds 5w-30 and 10w-30 warranty requirements"
>> >
>> > This is the new green bottle of Mobil 1 with the green
>> > top; the viscosity is 0w-30. Some of you have probably
>> > seen it.
>> >
>> > I don't want to good-naturedly raz you Ray O :-) but several
>> > months ago when I first said I was considering using 0w-30,
>> > you were seriously cautioning me against using any grade
>> > other than the 5w-30 grade called for in my manual. Don't
>> > even try 0w-30 was your sentiment.
>> ==============
>> The vehicle manufacturer decides what meets the warranty requirements,
>> not Mobil, not Amsoil.
>>
>> During the warranty period you don't want to give the manufacturer even
>> the slightest pretense on which to deny warranty service. If you do use
>> a non-API oil, or an oil other than what's stated in the manual, then
>> make sure there's no evidence of it on your receipts that you will have
>> to present in the case of any engine failure, whether the failure was
>> related to the oil or not.
> =============
>
> That's good advice, SMS.
>
> By the way, my local Toyota dealer is so busy, they're
> advertising on TV now that the service department has
> extended its hours. 7 AM to 7 PM now on some weekdays, and 7 AM to
> 4:30 PM on Saturdays.
>
> That was the only thing the commercial advertised: longer
> service hours. Didn't mention a thing about coming in
> and buying a car--just said we got longer hours now!
>
> Machens Toyota spent money just to let people know
> they've extended hours.

As vehicle sales (new and used) go down, dealers have to rely more on their
service and parts departments to cover their fixed costs. The service
department sells labor hours, and within a given facility, there is a limit
to how many hours they have available to sell. A way to increase the
available hours to sell is to longer hours.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)