Hello Again... I'm back....

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> StephenW wrote:
>>
>>> "Tegger" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> "StephenW" > wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have you been following the thread entitled
>>>> "'Black Box' information retention"?
>>>>
>>>> What do you know about that subject?
>>>>
>>>> I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but his
>>>> info
>>>> was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Tegger
>>>>
>>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few years
>>> ago, but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring when they
>>> send me to the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the instructor what
>>> he knows of it in the Subaru line.
>>> Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if
>>> the tie rod attach point and the tier rod was loose.
>>
>>
>> as were all the bearings after you brinelled them...
>>
>> use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin'
>> book. people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with 4lb
>> hammers can ignore them.
>
>
> Uh, the technique of removing tie rods/ball joints with a sharp blow to
> the side with a sizable ball peen has been used by zillions of mechanics
> for years ans is far better for the components than some of the
> separator tools available.

and zillions of "mechanics" rip off their customers with unnecessary
maintenance like brake pad replacement after only 15k miles, replaced
automatic transmissions when all it needs is a fluid change or a band
adjusting, not done timing belt changes, etc. the list is endless.
just because one incompetent trains another to do the same as them,
doesn't mean they're not incompetent.

bottom line, for all the reasons i stated earlier, hammering is
incredibly bad practice. _don't_ do it.

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> Elle wrote:
>> "Grumpy AuContraire" > wrote
>>
>>> The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock" application.
>>> No stress on the actual components.
>>
>>
>> I bought a ball joint (tapered fit blah blah) separator tool a couple
>> of years ago and like it. However, last month at the junkyard, while
>> going after a control arm and not having the separator tool with me, I
>> tried the "whack" with the hammer approach. It worked great, and my
>> sense is that I spare wear and tear on the ball joint boot, for one
>> thing.
>>
>
> Exactly.
>
> Them thar' boots are hard to replace so one should avoid splitting 'em.

i wouldn't call a pickle fork a "joint separator" - it's a weapon of
last resort and guaranteed to wreck boots.



>
>
>> The (highly regarded and thoughtful) auto suspension course instructor
>> I had a few years ago also approved of this technique.
>>
>>
>
> He's probably "old" school.
>
> JT
>
> (Older than dirt...)

jim beam wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> StephenW wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Tegger" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> "StephenW" > wrote in
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you been following the thread entitled
>>>>> "'Black Box' information retention"?
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you know about that subject?
>>>>>
>>>>> I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but his
>>>>> info
>>>>> was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Tegger
>>>>>
>>>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few
>>>> years ago, but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring
>>>> when they send me to the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the
>>>> instructor what he knows of it in the Subaru line.
>>>> Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if
>>>> the tie rod attach point and the tier rod was loose.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> as were all the bearings after you brinelled them...
>>>
>>> use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin'
>>> book. people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with
>>> 4lb hammers can ignore them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Uh, the technique of removing tie rods/ball joints with a sharp blow
>> to the side with a sizable ball peen has been used by zillions of
>> mechanics for years ans is far better for the components than some of
>> the separator tools available.
>
>
> and zillions of "mechanics" rip off their customers with unnecessary
> maintenance like brake pad replacement after only 15k miles, replaced
> automatic transmissions when all it needs is a fluid change or a band
> adjusting, not done timing belt changes, etc. the list is endless. just
> because one incompetent trains another to do the same as them, doesn't
> mean they're not incompetent.
>
> bottom line, for all the reasons i stated earlier, hammering is
> incredibly bad practice. _don't_ do it.


You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling.

JT

jim beam wrote:

> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Elle wrote:
>>
>>> "Grumpy AuContraire" > wrote
>>>
>>>> The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock" application.
>>>> No stress on the actual components.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I bought a ball joint (tapered fit blah blah) separator tool a couple
>>> of years ago and like it. However, last month at the junkyard, while
>>> going after a control arm and not having the separator tool with me,
>>> I tried the "whack" with the hammer approach. It worked great, and my
>>> sense is that I spare wear and tear on the ball joint boot, for one
>>> thing.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> Them thar' boots are hard to replace so one should avoid splitting 'em.
>
>
> i wouldn't call a pickle fork a "joint separator" - it's a weapon of
> last resort and guaranteed to wreck boots.
>
>

That I'll agree with but OTOH, if the part is to be discarded, it
doesn't make any difference.

JT

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Elle wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Grumpy AuContraire" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>> The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock"
>>>>> application. No stress on the actual components.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I bought a ball joint (tapered fit blah blah) separator tool a
>>>> couple of years ago and like it. However, last month at the
>>>> junkyard, while going after a control arm and not having the
>>>> separator tool with me, I tried the "whack" with the hammer
>>>> approach. It worked great, and my sense is that I spare wear and
>>>> tear on the ball joint boot, for one thing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly.
>>>
>>> Them thar' boots are hard to replace so one should avoid splitting 'em.
>>
>>
>> i wouldn't call a pickle fork a "joint separator" - it's a weapon of
>> last resort and guaranteed to wreck boots.
>>
>>
>
> That I'll agree with but OTOH, if the part is to be discarded, it
> doesn't make any difference.
>
> JT
>
>

if the part is to be discarded, go ahead and use a hammer!

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> StephenW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Tegger" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> "StephenW" > wrote in
>>>>>> :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you been following the thread entitled
>>>>>> "'Black Box' information retention"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you know about that subject?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but
>>>>>> his info
>>>>>> was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Tegger
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few
>>>>> years ago, but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring
>>>>> when they send me to the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the
>>>>> instructor what he knows of it in the Subaru line.
>>>>> Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if
>>>>> the tie rod attach point and the tier rod was loose.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> as were all the bearings after you brinelled them...
>>>>
>>>> use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin'
>>>> book. people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with
>>>> 4lb hammers can ignore them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Uh, the technique of removing tie rods/ball joints with a sharp blow
>>> to the side with a sizable ball peen has been used by zillions of
>>> mechanics for years ans is far better for the components than some of
>>> the separator tools available.
>>
>>
>> and zillions of "mechanics" rip off their customers with unnecessary
>> maintenance like brake pad replacement after only 15k miles, replaced
>> automatic transmissions when all it needs is a fluid change or a band
>> adjusting, not done timing belt changes, etc. the list is endless.
>> just because one incompetent trains another to do the same as them,
>> doesn't mean they're not incompetent.
>>
>> bottom line, for all the reasons i stated earlier, hammering is
>> incredibly bad practice. _don't_ do it.
>
>
> You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling.
>
> JT

did you read my explanatory post?

jim beam wrote:

> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> StephenW wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Tegger" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "StephenW" > wrote in
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you been following the thread entitled
>>>>>>> "'Black Box' information retention"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you know about that subject?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but
>>>>>>> his info
>>>>>>> was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Tegger
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few
>>>>>> years ago, but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring
>>>>>> when they send me to the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the
>>>>>> instructor what he knows of it in the Subaru line.
>>>>>> Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if
>>>>>> the tie rod attach point and the tier rod was loose.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> as were all the bearings after you brinelled them...
>>>>>
>>>>> use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin'
>>>>> book. people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with
>>>>> 4lb hammers can ignore them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Uh, the technique of removing tie rods/ball joints with a sharp blow
>>>> to the side with a sizable ball peen has been used by zillions of
>>>> mechanics for years ans is far better for the components than some
>>>> of the separator tools available.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and zillions of "mechanics" rip off their customers with unnecessary
>>> maintenance like brake pad replacement after only 15k miles, replaced
>>> automatic transmissions when all it needs is a fluid change or a band
>>> adjusting, not done timing belt changes, etc. the list is endless.
>>> just because one incompetent trains another to do the same as them,
>>> doesn't mean they're not incompetent.
>>>
>>> bottom line, for all the reasons i stated earlier, hammering is
>>> incredibly bad practice. _don't_ do it.
>>
>>
>>
>> You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling.
>>
>> JT
>
>
> did you read my explanatory post?


Yes I did but it is you who missed the basic point.

Simply put, removing tie rods/ball joints by applying a sharp blow to
the side of the steering knuckle etc. is a long time practice. So much
so it is legend in the trade. The practice does not damage any components.

If one were to purchase all the "special" tools recommended by
manufacturers/dealers to do simple jobs, (tie rod design hasn't changed
much in fifty years), the mechanics profit margin would be severely
impacted.

There's the "book" method and there's the smart method.

I prefer to work "smart."

JT

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> StephenW wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Tegger" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "StephenW" > wrote in
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you been following the thread entitled
>>>>>>>> "'Black Box' information retention"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What do you know about that subject?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but
>>>>>>>> his info
>>>>>>>> was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Tegger
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few
>>>>>>> years ago, but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring
>>>>>>> when they send me to the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the
>>>>>>> instructor what he knows of it in the Subaru line.
>>>>>>> Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side
>>>>>>> if the tie rod attach point and the tier rod was loose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> as were all the bearings after you brinelled them...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin'
>>>>>> book. people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with
>>>>>> 4lb hammers can ignore them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh, the technique of removing tie rods/ball joints with a sharp
>>>>> blow to the side with a sizable ball peen has been used by zillions
>>>>> of mechanics for years ans is far better for the components than
>>>>> some of the separator tools available.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and zillions of "mechanics" rip off their customers with unnecessary
>>>> maintenance like brake pad replacement after only 15k miles,
>>>> replaced automatic transmissions when all it needs is a fluid change
>>>> or a band adjusting, not done timing belt changes, etc. the list is
>>>> endless. just because one incompetent trains another to do the same
>>>> as them, doesn't mean they're not incompetent.
>>>>
>>>> bottom line, for all the reasons i stated earlier, hammering is
>>>> incredibly bad practice. _don't_ do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling.
>>>
>>> JT
>>
>>
>> did you read my explanatory post?
>
>
> Yes I did but it is you who missed the basic point.
>
> Simply put, removing tie rods/ball joints by applying a sharp blow to
> the side of the steering knuckle etc. is a long time practice. So much
> so it is legend in the trade. The practice does not damage any components.

dude, i'm sure you're sincere in that belief, and i respect that, but
unfortunately that statement is simply not correct. there is tangible
damage from this practice, most of which may not be immediately
apparent, but it is nevertheless still there.

to be fair, it may not have been much of an issue with detroit garbage
that didn't last very long anyway and hammering damage was
indistinguishable from poor quality, but in this day and age,
particularly with modern vehicles and the more frequent use of aluminum
suspension components, it's absolutely not acceptable to teach people
something that is wrong.


>
> If one were to purchase all the "special" tools recommended by
> manufacturers/dealers to do simple jobs, (tie rod design hasn't changed
> much in fifty years), the mechanics profit margin would be severely
> impacted.

so would sticking to the manufacturer service schedule!


>
> There's the "book" method and there's the smart method.

no, there's the book method and the book method. if it's not in the
book don't do it. [1]


>
> I prefer to work "smart."

except that it's not. and if hammering damage initiates fatigue, it can
be positively lethal.

>
> JT
>

1. there's a famous case in aircraft accident investigation where
engine separation occurred because the techs who were replacing an
engine didn't do it right. the "book" method was to use a special hoist
that lifted the engine exactly into position so that that the mounting
bolts could all be fitted at once. but these guys were "smart" and they
didn't "need" to buy that expensive hoist. so they used a forklift, got
the engine positioned "about right", rammed in a couple of bolts, then
left the engine to hang until they could re-shift and bring the other
bolts into alignment. trouble was, these bolts are designed to fail on
marginal overload and let the engine drop rather than damage the
aircraft. being left to hang, while nothing was obviously damaged,
initiated the failure process, so some while later, this engine
separated on takeoff nearly causing a crash of a fully loaded, fully
fueled plane. and these techs were guys with years of experience and
who "knew what they were doing"!!!

bottom line, don't ignore what's in the book. it may not spell out all
the detail, but if it says to use a separator on a ball joint, and even
gives details of that tool, there's a reason! and no, it's not to rip
off the poor repair franchise that get to print money charging you $600
for a $34 timing belt replacement.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> StephenW wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Tegger" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "StephenW" > wrote in
>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have you been following the thread entitled
>>>>>>>>> "'Black Box' information retention"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What do you know about that subject?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but
>>>>>>>>> his info
>>>>>>>>> was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Tegger
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>>>>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few
>>>>>>>> years ago, but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring
>>>>>>>> when they send me to the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the
>>>>>>>> instructor what he knows of it in the Subaru line.
>>>>>>>> Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if
>>>>>>>> the tie rod attach point and the tier rod was loose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as were all the bearings after you brinelled them...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin'
>>>>>>> book. people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with
>>>>>>> 4lb hammers can ignore them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uh, the technique of removing tie rods/ball joints with a sharp blow
>>>>>> to the side with a sizable ball peen has been used by zillions of
>>>>>> mechanics for years ans is far better for the components than some of
>>>>>> the separator tools available.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and zillions of "mechanics" rip off their customers with unnecessary
>>>>> maintenance like brake pad replacement after only 15k miles, replaced
>>>>> automatic transmissions when all it needs is a fluid change or a band
>>>>> adjusting, not done timing belt changes, etc. the list is endless.
>>>>> just because one incompetent trains another to do the same as them,
>>>>> doesn't mean they're not incompetent.
>>>>>
>>>>> bottom line, for all the reasons i stated earlier, hammering is
>>>>> incredibly bad practice. _don't_ do it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling.
>>>>
>>>> JT
>>>
>>>
>>> did you read my explanatory post?
>>
>>
>> Yes I did but it is you who missed the basic point.
>>
>> Simply put, removing tie rods/ball joints by applying a sharp blow to the
>> side of the steering knuckle etc. is a long time practice. So much so it
>> is legend in the trade. The practice does not damage any components.
>
> dude, i'm sure you're sincere in that belief, and i respect that, but
> unfortunately that statement is simply not correct. there is tangible
> damage from this practice, most of which may not be immediately apparent,
> but it is nevertheless still there.
>
> to be fair, it may not have been much of an issue with detroit garbage
> that didn't last very long anyway and hammering damage was
> indistinguishable from poor quality, but in this day and age, particularly
> with modern vehicles and the more frequent use of aluminum suspension
> components, it's absolutely not acceptable to teach people something that
> is wrong.
>
>
>>
>> If one were to purchase all the "special" tools recommended by
>> manufacturers/dealers to do simple jobs, (tie rod design hasn't changed
>> much in fifty years), the mechanics profit margin would be severely
>> impacted.
>
> so would sticking to the manufacturer service schedule!
>
>
>>
>> There's the "book" method and there's the smart method.
>
> no, there's the book method and the book method. if it's not in the book
> don't do it. [1]
>
>
>>
>> I prefer to work "smart."
>
> except that it's not. and if hammering damage initiates fatigue, it can
> be positively lethal.
>
>>
>> JT
>>
>
> 1. there's a famous case in aircraft accident investigation where engine
> separation occurred because the techs who were replacing an engine didn't
> do it right. the "book" method was to use a special hoist that lifted the
> engine exactly into position so that that the mounting bolts could all be
> fitted at once. but these guys were "smart" and they didn't "need" to buy
> that expensive hoist. so they used a forklift, got the engine positioned
> "about right", rammed in a couple of bolts, then left the engine to hang
> until they could re-shift and bring the other bolts into alignment.
> trouble was, these bolts are designed to fail on marginal overload and let
> the engine drop rather than damage the aircraft. being left to hang,
> while nothing was obviously damaged, initiated the failure process, so
> some while later, this engine separated on takeoff nearly causing a crash
> of a fully loaded, fully fueled plane. and these techs were guys with
> years of experience and who "knew what they were doing"!!!

I believe you are talking about an American Airlines 747 that lost its
engine. Even worse the airlines did a cursory inspection and declared all
other 747's safe. Thankfully a couple of mechanics weren't satisfied and
took some engines off the planes and found more bolts ready to fail which
forced all airlines to recheck the bolts carefully and avoiding disaster in
the air.




>
> bottom line, don't ignore what's in the book. it may not spell out all
> the detail, but if it says to use a separator on a ball joint, and even
> gives details of that tool, there's a reason! and no, it's not to rip off
> the poor repair franchise that get to print money charging you $600 for a
> $34 timing belt replacement.

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:

<snip>

> You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling.

"Defying history" - wow!