08 civic warm up issues

On Jan 14, 7:56*pm, loewent > wrote:
> -35C here this morning.
>
> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. *I started the car
> and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. *The block heater was
> plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. *After the brief warmup,
> its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). *I
> finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
> RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. *And when I came to red lights
> in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> don't run the heater fan at full blast. *Problem is, at 1/2, the
> heater barely warms up the interior of the car. *However, with the
> heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
> spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> We got this 2008civicLX in January2007. *Never noticed anyproblems
> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. *The car has
> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> both are perfectly fine. *Entertained damming the radiator with
> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. *At these
> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
> the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
> broke 1).
>
> I have seen someCivichybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. *I may try that
> yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. *I have
> owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
> reaching operating temperature.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this problem? *Anything I am missing here?
>
> Thanks
> Terry in Winnipeg

Yes,

I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my car in four times
this fall and still have problems reaching temperature. I'm 95% sure
the problem is the thermostat. Every time I ask them to check the
thermostat, and they haven't removed the thermostat once (which is the
recommended method in the dealer service manual). My old Acura Integra
(also an aluminum 1.8L) had the same problem once, I replaced the
thermostat and she was fine.

My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
temperature. I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
and save the parts for me. (If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
getting unglued). The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
know how it goes.

I'm sure you've noticed your gas consumption increase as well- I'm
getting about 250km to a tank right now, just slightly better than my
friends Land Rover. You may have also noticed the temperature drop on
long downhill roads... I can usually drop the temp from 1/2 to 1/6 on
a good hill.

FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
posted.

Corry

On Feb 3, 9:25*am, wrote:
> On Jan 14, 7:56*pm, loewent > wrote:
>
>
>
> > -35C here this morning.
>
> > My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. *I started the car
> > and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. *The block heater was
> > plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. *After the brief warmup,
> > its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> > The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). *I
> > finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
> > RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. *And when I came to red lights
> > in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> > Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> > (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> > don't run the heater fan at full blast. *Problem is, at 1/2, the
> > heater barely warms up the interior of the car. *However, with the
> > heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
> > spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> > We got this 2008civicLX in January2007. *Never noticed anyproblems
> > last winter, but it really was never this cold either. *The car has
> > 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> > I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> > both are perfectly fine. *Entertained damming the radiator with
> > cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> > without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. *At these
> > temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
> > the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
> > broke 1).
>
> > I have seen someCivichybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> > from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. *I may try that
> > yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. *I have
> > owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
> > reaching operating temperature.
>
> > Has anyone else experienced this problem? *Anything I am missing here?
>
> > Thanks
> > Terry in Winnipeg
>
> Yes,
>
> I'm having the exact same problem. *I've taken my car in four times
> this fall and still haveproblemsreaching temperature. *I'm 95% sure
> the problem is thethermostat. *Every time I ask them to check thethermostat, and they haven't removed thethermostatonce (which is the
> recommended method in the dealer service manual). My old Acura Integra
> (also an aluminum 1.8L) had the same problem once, I replaced thethermostatand she was fine.
>
> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
> produce as much heat'. *It doesn't make sense. *If the engine is at
> temperature, thethermostatshould open and close to keep it at
> temperature. *I'm paying them to replace thethermostatat my cost,
> and save the parts for me. *(If I get an openthermostatback I'll be
> getting unglued). *Thethermostatshould be in this week, I'll let you
> know how it goes.
>
> I'm sure you've noticed your gas consumption increase as well- I'm
> getting about 250km to a tank right now, just slightly better than my
> friends Land Rover. *You may have also noticed the temperature drop on
> long downhill roads... I can usually drop the temp from 1/2 to 1/6 on
> a good hill.
>
> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
> posted.
>
> Corry

Forgot to mention that I drive an 07 Civic. This is its first cold
winter, so I'm only noticing the problem now.

C

) writes:
> On Jan 14, 7:56=A0pm, loewent > wrote:
>> -35C here this morning.
>>
>> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. =A0I started the car
>> and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. =A0The block heater was
>> plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. =A0After the brief warmup,
>> its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>>
>> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). =A0I
>> finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
>> RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. =A0And when I came to red lights
>> in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>>
>> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
>> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
>> don't run the heater fan at full blast. =A0Problem is, at 1/2, the
>> heater barely warms up the interior of the car. =A0However, with the
>> heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
>> spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>>
>> We got this 2008civicLX in January2007. =A0Never noticed anyproblems
>> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. =A0The car has
>> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>>
>> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
>> both are perfectly fine. =A0Entertained damming the radiator with
>> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
>> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. =A0At these
>> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
>> the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
>> broke 1).
>>
>> I have seen someCivichybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
>> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. =A0I may try that
>> yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. =A0I have
>> owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
>> reaching operating temperature.
>>
>> Has anyone else experienced this problem? =A0Anything I am missing here?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Terry in Winnipeg
>
> Yes,
>
> I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my car in four times
> this fall and still have problems reaching temperature. I'm 95% sure
> the problem is the thermostat. Every time I ask them to check the
> thermostat, and they haven't removed the thermostat once (which is the
> recommended method in the dealer service manual). My old Acura Integra
> (also an aluminum 1.8L) had the same problem once, I replaced the
> thermostat and she was fine.
>
> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
> produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
> temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
> temperature. I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
> and save the parts for me. (If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
> getting unglued). The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
> know how it goes.
>
> I'm sure you've noticed your gas consumption increase as well- I'm
> getting about 250km to a tank right now, just slightly better than my
> friends Land Rover. You may have also noticed the temperature drop on
> long downhill roads... I can usually drop the temp from 1/2 to 1/6 on
> a good hill.
>
> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
> posted.
>
> Corry
>



Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.

If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda Canada
is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada is required
to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not allowed to sell
automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified emissions. An engine that
does not warm up to operating temperature, within a certain time frame, will
not meet the Fed specs. Raise a stink with the dealer, Honda Canada, and
Transport Canada. You paid lots of money to have Honda build a car that
is supposed to meet the Canadian emissions specs.

Look at you warranty booklet, read it carefully. Contact Transport Canada.
Do you live in a province that requires emission tests for licence renewal
(i.e. Ontario, British Columbia)? You may want to tell them Honda has
possibly allowed polluting automobiles to operate on their roads.

3Gee Canadian Hondas (1986 to 1989 Accords) list an optional (hotter)
thermostat (with operation specs [temps etc.]) in the Honda Canadian
workshop manual.

(M.A. Stewart) wrote in
:

> ) writes:

>>
>> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
>> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
>> posted.
>>
>> Corry
>>
>
>
>
> Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.
>
> If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda
> Canada is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada
> is required to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not
> allowed to sell automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified
> emissions. An engine that does not warm up to operating temperature,
> within a certain time frame, will not meet the Fed specs.



It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed federal
limits by a significant amount.

You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system are
the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working properly, the
Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working properly, then
emissions are within specified limits regardless of coolant temperature.

What totally baffles me is that nobody seems to want to try the very simple
expedient of checking the coolant outlet at the head with an infrared
thermometer. All dealers have got to have one of those. *I* have one. It
was all of $75. You should see about 205F at the "sweet spot" when fully
warm. If it's lower than that with no accompanying Check Engine light, then
the thermostat is bad.

I'm convinced Honda has simply had a run of bum thermostats, hardly an
issue worth snitching to the cops for. Bet there's a TSB out on this by
spring.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
> produce as much heat'. *It doesn't make sense. *If the engine is at
> temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
> temperature. *I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
> and save the parts for me. *(If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
> getting unglued). *The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
> know how it goes.

Same BS I get from my dealer, they claim the heater core, which takes
water before the thermostat, is actually capable of cooling the engine
in this weather. Doesn't make any sense, sounds like a routing or
valving issue to me. No way should coolant flow be that high through
a heater core.


> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
> posted.

I've used some 1/2" pipe insulation in the gaps of the grill. See
pics at URL below, mine is the same. Definitely helps it get up to
temperature on the hwy. From what I understand, this problem is even
worse on hybrid civics.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f...n-grill-16922/

t

Tegger ) writes:
> (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
> :
>
>> ) writes:
>
>>>
>>> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
>>> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
>>> posted.
>>>
>>> Corry
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.
>>
>> If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda
>> Canada is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada
>> is required to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not
>> allowed to sell automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified
>> emissions. An engine that does not warm up to operating temperature,
>> within a certain time frame, will not meet the Fed specs.
>
>
>
> It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed federal
> limits by a significant amount.
>
> You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system are
> the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working properly, the
> Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working properly, then
> emissions are within specified limits regardless of coolant temperature.

Ahh... the possible loophole for the manufacturers. My understanding
(and I'm not saying it is correct) is that there is a time limit for engine
warm up, because when the cars are tested by the 'Feds' (not the
provinces or possibly the states), they 'bag' everything that exits the
exhaust. If the engine does not warm up during the test 'program' (driving
test routine), the bag, when analysed for contents, will show high readings.


>
> What totally baffles me is that nobody seems to want to try the very simple
> expedient of checking the coolant outlet at the head with an infrared
> thermometer. All dealers have got to have one of those. *I* have one. It
> was all of $75. You should see about 205F at the "sweet spot" when fully
> warm. If it's lower than that with no accompanying Check Engine light, then
> the thermostat is bad.

And the test for stats is the same as it has always been... take the stat
out... hang it in a pot of water... hang in a good thermometer... turn the
heat on... make note of the temps and action of the stat... consult the
factory workshop manuals for the specific details of how the action and
temps are supposed to relate.


>
> I'm convinced Honda has simply had a run of bum thermostats, hardly an
> issue worth snitching to the cops for. Bet there's a TSB out on this by
> spring.
>

At 30 to 50 below in the Yukon, spring is a LONG time away! At 30 to 50
below ya want some fire under your ass. If a threat of snitching gets that
fire sooner, well then, what the hell! :-) :-)

>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

(M.A. Stewart) wrote in
:

> Tegger ) writes:

>>
>>
>> It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed
>> federal limits by a significant amount.
>>
>> You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system
>> are the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working
>> properly, the Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working
>> properly, then emissions are within specified limits regardless of
>> coolant temperature.
>
> Ahh... the possible loophole for the manufacturers. My understanding
> (and I'm not saying it is correct) is that there is a time limit for
> engine warm up, because when the cars are tested by the 'Feds' (not
> the provinces or possibly the states), they 'bag' everything that
> exits the exhaust. If the engine does not warm up during the test
> 'program' (driving test routine), the bag, when analysed for contents,
> will show high readings.



Oxygen sensors/AF sensors are active after about 30 seconds from a cold
start. Their internal heaters are the reason why. The 2008 cat is
functional after about the same length of time. Its cheek-to-jowl proximity
to the exhaust ports is why.

It is true that insufficiently warmed-up engines of /any/ year will exhibit
high HC readings (but stunningly low NO numbers!) compared to a fully
warmed-up one, but you MUST realize how stupidly low ALL the readings are
these days. CO, for one, is now non-existent to Ontario's DriveClean, since
its equipment "only" goes to two decimal places. You'll see "0.00%" in that
slot. An uncontrolled engine puts out roughly 4%-10% CO.

A cold engine of 2008 vintage puts out less HC/CO/NO than a fully-warm
engine did in 1991. After the first half-minute, anyway.

I've been told that, in terms of measured emissions, auto exhaust is
CLEANER than the ambient air in large cities, and has been so since 1986.

The US federal EPA says that ambient air is now 57% cleaner in ABSOLUTE
terms than it was in 1970, in spite of a 157% increase in vehicular traffic
from then to now.

If you want to get all huffy and go squealing to the feds that the Big Bad
Automaker is Destroying the Environment, you should have a few facts at
hand before you make a total fool of yourself.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger ) writes:
> (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
> :
>
>> Tegger ) writes:
>

[snipped... because I've been snipped]


>
> If you want to get all huffy and go squealing to the feds that the Big Bad
> Automaker is Destroying the Environment, you should have a few facts at
> hand before you make a total fool of yourself.
>
>

Huffy? I'm not getting huffy.

I implied to him to phone Transport Canada for the _FACTS_. He's
freezin' his ****in' arse off. Why doesn't the dealer fix his 2008 car?
Are they fools?

Here's a fact... if the engine doesn't warm up... he won't get enough
heat out of the heater, and therefore his defroster won't work properly.

This is illegal in Ontario... it's in the Highway Traffic Act (Ontario).

A 2008 car that won't pass an Ontario Safety Check, because of a bum
defroster, this is almost unheard of.

Possibly another lever for him to use on the 'fools'.

Keep up the good work on your web site.

(M.A. Stewart) wrote in
:

> Tegger ) writes:
>> (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Tegger ) writes:
>>
>
> [snipped... because I've been snipped]
>
>
>>
>> If you want to get all huffy and go squealing to the feds that the
>> Big Bad Automaker is Destroying the Environment, you should have a
>> few facts at hand before you make a total fool of yourself.
>>
>>
>
> Huffy? I'm not getting huffy.
>
> I implied to him to phone Transport Canada for the _FACTS_. He's
> freezin' his ****in' arse off. Why doesn't the dealer fix his 2008
> car? Are they fools?



Is HE a fool? You're supposed to be responsible for yourself in this
life. You need to do your OWN ass-kicking. If the dealer won't help (the
infrared thermometer is the FIRST step), you call Honda Canada and get a
zone rep involved. You (politely but insistently) kick ass and don't
take "no" for an answer. Honda Canada WILL help if the rep can be
convinced that there's a problem. Honda is HIGHLY protective of its
reputation. Intelligent and reasoned arguments ARE listened to, believe
it or not, even by Big Bad Environment-Destroying Automakers.

What is NOT listened to is trivial whining from unwashed proles who
refuse to back up their gripes with solid evidence that there is in fact
a problem that is not being dealt with with by the franchised dealer.
Retail establishments of all kinds get a LOT of disaffected weirdos with
imagined problems, so it's not surprising that dealers seem to be
treating these poor-heat reports skeptically. If there IS in fact
something wrong, there will eventually be issued a TSB (one of at least
a hundred issued each year) detailing the problem and its fix.

What is it with people today? Nobody wants to do some legwork and just
get stuff fixed. Mistakes and screwups happen. Bad customer service
happens too, just because people are human and are highly defective.
Instead of dealing with reality the real way, everybody now wants to
immediately run to Big Brother Government and get them to whack some
rich guy real hard.

You want to know what's wrong with society today? Look in the mirror.
You're your _own_ last line of defense, and should be, regardless of
what the government-lovers want to see happen.



>
> Here's a fact... if the engine doesn't warm up... he won't get enough
> heat out of the heater, and therefore his defroster won't work
> properly.



No kidding. Having been the victim of defective thermostats once or
twice over several decades, I know exactly what you mean.



>
> This is illegal in Ontario... it's in the Highway Traffic Act
> (Ontario).
>
> A 2008 car that won't pass an Ontario Safety Check, because of a bum
> defroster, this is almost unheard of.



Have /you, personally/ ever seen any 2008 car fail in such a manner?



>
> Possibly another lever for him to use on the 'fools'.



The very best "lever" to use on the "fools" is for informed consumers to
do this:
1) have the dealer or some other garage, or the car owner himself, warm
the car up all the way (at least a half-hour of actual driving), then
aim a $75 infrared thermometer at the upper rad hose's outlet at the
head. If the max reading is much less than 205F, then there is a
problem;
2) if there IS a problem and the dealer refuses to fix it, call Honda
Canada at 1-888-946-6329.

When I say I have NEVER seen an engine with proper combustion and a good
thermostat fail to heat up so as to exhibit 205 at the outlet, I
exaggerate not at all.



>
> Keep up the good work on your web site.
>
>



Way behind on updates due to lack of time. We've hired a couple of new
guys, so I hopefully will have more time in the future.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Robert Barr wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> 1-800-999-1009
>>
>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>
> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>
> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers;
> there's only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the symptoms.
>

OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they call
back with a message on my answering machine stating that they agree with
the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.

I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before I
installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda dealer in
the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they replaced the thermostat.

For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No surprises
here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new, but there was a
definite improvement.