08 civic warm up issues

Robert Barr > wrote in
:

>
> Robert Barr wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1-800-999-1009
>>>
>>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>>
>> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers;
>> there's only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the
>> symptoms.
>>
>
> OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they call
> back with a message on my answering machine stating that they agree
> with the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.
>
> I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before I
> installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda dealer
> in the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they replaced the
> thermostat.
>
> For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
> temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No
> surprises here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new, but
> there was a definite improvement.
>



So I'm not just whistling in the wind?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger wrote:
(...)
>
> I've been told that, in terms of measured emissions, auto exhaust is
> CLEANER than the ambient air in large cities, and has been so since 1986.
>
(...)


A bit of perspective: I was in Advanced Auto mechanics in high
school, and was told the same thing by the shop teacher - that cars were
essentially cleaning urban air. The year?

1975.

On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 04:34:33 +0000, Tegger wrote:

> Robert Barr > wrote in
> :
>
>
>> Robert Barr wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1-800-999-1009
>>>>
>>>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>>>
>>> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers;
>>> there's only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the
>>> symptoms.
>>>
>>>
>> OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they call
>> back with a message on my answering machine stating that they agree
>> with the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.
>>
>> I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before I
>> installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda dealer in
>> the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they replaced the
>> thermostat.
>>
>> For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
>> temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No surprises
>> here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new, but there was
>> a definite improvement.
>>
>>
>
>
> So I'm not just whistling in the wind?

nope. i'll add one thing though - while the thermostat can indeed, and
typically will, be the problem, a below-spec coolant temp sensor can
exacerbate it. as i found recently, even with an in-spec thermostat, if
the computer is getting erroneous data indicating cold engine, it'll
inject rich mixture, and that doesn't burn as hot as stoichiometric
mixture, thus the engine takes even longer to warm than normal.

your i.r. thermometer suggestion is excellent. i would also suggest with
an obdcII and higher vehicle, matching that against the temperature the
computer thinks the coolant is. if it's below the temp measured
externally at the radiator feed, the sensor is /definitely/ out of spec.

Jim Yanik > wrote in
:

> jim beam > wrote in
> :
>

>>
>> nope. i'll add one thing though - while the thermostat can indeed,
>> and typically will, be the problem, a below-spec coolant temp sensor
>> can exacerbate it. as i found recently, even with an in-spec
>> thermostat, if the computer is getting erroneous data indicating cold
>> engine, it'll inject rich mixture, and that doesn't burn as hot as
>> stoichiometric mixture, thus the engine takes even longer to warm
>> than normal.
>>
>> your i.r. thermometer suggestion is excellent. i would also suggest
>> with an obdcII and higher vehicle, matching that against the
>> temperature the computer thinks the coolant is. if it's below the
>> temp measured externally at the radiator feed, the sensor is
>> /definitely/ out of spec.
>>
>>
>
> on OBD-II cars,can't you read out what the CTS is reading for
> temperature thru the diagnostic port?(with the proper scan tool?)
>



That's what jim means. You'd then compare that to what you get from the IR
thermometer aimed at the thermostat housing, where you'd expect 194F with
the engine at full-warm.

I'm baffled why this very simple problem is being treated like one of the
world's Great Unsolved Mysteries.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

> That's what jim means. You'd then compare that to what you get from the IR
> thermometer aimed at the thermostat housing, where you'd expect 194F with
> the engine at full-warm.
>
> I'm baffled why this very simple problem is being treated like one of the
> world's Great Unsolved Mysteries.
>
>

From my perspective, even this is tangential; I'm concerned with a
dealership's repeated inability (or refusal) to manage a simple warranty
repair, and American Honda's casual disregard of its warranty
obligations, let alone the moral and liability aspects of sending a
customer out the door with a documented safety issue unaddressed. This
should have been simple.

I'll never buy another Honda.

loewent > wrote in news:f1d574cc-f317-4c99-9229-
:

>
>> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
>> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
>> produce as much heat'. *It doesn't make sense. *If the engine is at
>> temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
>> temperature. *I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
>> and save the parts for me. *(If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
>> getting unglued). *The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
>> know how it goes.
>
> Same BS I get from my dealer, they claim the heater core, which takes
> water before the thermostat, is actually capable of cooling the engine
> in this weather. Doesn't make any sense, sounds like a routing or
> valving issue to me. No way should coolant flow be that high through
> a heater core.
>
>
>> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
>> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
>> posted.
>
> I've used some 1/2" pipe insulation in the gaps of the grill. See
> pics at URL below, mine is the same. Definitely helps it get up to
> temperature on the hwy. From what I understand, this problem is even
> worse on hybrid civics.
>
> http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f...n-grill-16922/
>
> t
>

Hi Robert
I have been following this thread and have something for you to consider.

Honda makes very efficient engines, they are also as a rule small. The
combination means that there is a LIMITED amount of waste heat availible.

Consider that especially if the heater is at the max setting, there will
be a maximum amount of heat available for a given engine load (dependent
mainly on vehicle speed).

Given the fixed amount of waste heat available and the cooling effect of
the heater core, there will be a minimum outside air temperature that the
waste heat availible from the engine can support.

Colder than that temperature outside, the engine temperature will drop,
warmer than that temperature, the engine temperature will increase until
the thermostat opens. This is the "balance point" of your system.

If you read most good shop manuals they have a performance chart for air
conditioners that is analogous to this situation. At a certain outside
temperature, the capacity of the air conditioner becomes inadequate to cool
the car to a comfortable temperature.

I have only run into this situation once, living in north Texas. A college
roommate had a 74 Mercury capri with a 2.0 L engine and had the same
problem you had.(almost no heater below 20 degrees F). This engine had the
added problem of a water heated intake manifold. After a thorough
inspection I found that the engine air intake preheat tube (a baffle on the
exhaust manifold feeds hot air through a tube to the air cleaner) had been
disconnected. Simply reconnecting this tube lowered the coolant heat loss
to the intake manifold enough to tip the balance and make the heater work
correctly.

The only easy test I can come up with to see if your engine is
overcooling because of excess heat loss to the heater core is this:
Clamp off either one of the radiator hoses and drive the car. A defective
thermostat will not allow the engine to overcool because the radiator is
disabled. If it still overcools, then the only place that the heat is going
is out of the heater core and there is not a bad thermostat. No disassembly
required and you can buy clamps for this at a lot of tool stores, they are
used to do repairs without draining coolant.

A lot of the responders to your posts think that the heater core cannot
overcool the engine. This may be correct with large heavy vehicles with
large engines, but a small engine CAN be overcooled with a low enough
outside air temperature.
I realise you may think your problem is solved by the new thermostat, but
consider that you have not driven again at -36 degrees C. The balance point
for your heater and driving conditions may not have been met and may not
until next year when colder temperatures return.

The bad news is that there is no way to modify your engine to solve the
heater problem without a lot of engineering that would have to be done by
Honda, as an optional "arctic kit" or some such. That means a lot of r+d
for 1/10 of 1% of the cars they make. I doubt that it will happen. If I
was you I would try to fabricate a cover for your oil pan made of cardboard
or some such material to insulate and prevent heat loss from cold air
blowing across the oil pan and cooling the oil, but this would be a pain in
the butt to install and take off as outside temperatures increase to the
point where the oil would overheat.

Good luck
Scott

"nunya" > wrote in message
...
>
> A lot of the responders to your posts think that the heater core cannot
> overcool the engine. This may be correct with large heavy vehicles with
> large engines, but a small engine CAN be overcooled with a low enough
> outside air temperature.

I have to agree. Modern engines are more efficient than we old-timers
appreciate. A friend's daughter is going to college in town so he asked me
to look at her 2001 Ford Focus. It was overheating within minutes of getting
on the freeway but was no problem in town. I found the radiator 99%
plugged - blowing through it was like blowing through a couple of soda
straws. The radiator was not doing anything - it didn't even get more than a
little warm when the engine overheated - but the temperature was still okay
(not regulating, but you can't tell that from the Ford temp guage which,
like their oil guages, is an idiot light in guage form).

Adding baffles to the grill to keep cold air from bathing the engine may be
the best answer, and the pipe insulation is a good choice.

Mike

On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 22:34:13 -0600, Robert Barr wrote:

>> That's what jim means. You'd then compare that to what you get from the
>> IR thermometer aimed at the thermostat housing, where you'd expect 194F
>> with the engine at full-warm.
>>
>> I'm baffled why this very simple problem is being treated like one of
>> the world's Great Unsolved Mysteries.
>>
>>
>>
> From my perspective, even this is tangential; I'm concerned with a
> dealership's repeated inability (or refusal) to manage a simple warranty
> repair, and American Honda's casual disregard of its warranty
> obligations, let alone the moral and liability aspects of sending a
> customer out the door with a documented safety issue unaddressed. This
> should have been simple.
>
> I'll never buy another Honda.


probably just as well - despite the fact that you're correct, you're whiny
and irritating. who wants to spend time trying to filter out the facts
from all the crap?.

jim beam > wrote in
:

> On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 22:34:13 -0600, Robert Barr wrote:
>
>>> That's what jim means. You'd then compare that to what you get from
>>> the IR thermometer aimed at the thermostat housing, where you'd
>>> expect 194F with the engine at full-warm.
>>>
>>> I'm baffled why this very simple problem is being treated like one
>>> of the world's Great Unsolved Mysteries.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> From my perspective, even this is tangential; I'm concerned with a
>> dealership's repeated inability (or refusal) to manage a simple
>> warranty repair, and American Honda's casual disregard of its
>> warranty obligations, let alone the moral and liability aspects of
>> sending a customer out the door with a documented safety issue
>> unaddressed. This should have been simple.
>>
>> I'll never buy another Honda.
>
>
> probably just as well - despite the fact that you're correct, you're
> whiny and irritating. who wants to spend time trying to filter out
> the facts from all the crap?.
>
>

one Honda dealer is not representative of all Honda dealers,and the factory
rep was probably going on what the -dealer- told him.
I'd say it was time to write a letter to Corporate.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net