ignition condenser - revisited

i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster
performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the
distributor. well, i'd kinda forgotten the degree of difference this
change made, so when i revisited this situation again last weekend, i
was surprised to confirm the same effect.

long story short, after my last igniter failure, i'd been looking for a
spare distributor "just in case" so i could keep it in the trunk rather
than pay $300+ towing charges in the event of another breakdown.
finally, i managed to find a spare oem distributor [$10!!! thank you
craigslist!!!], tested it and put it on my car. it worked fine and the
car fired up immediately. /but/, performance was very ho-hum. double
checked the timing, no problems. put the old distributor [new
condenser] back on, checked the timing, and hey presto! back to driving
being a ripping good time again! this was /exactly/ the scenario i'd
experienced before.

the moral of the story: while i have no convenient means to measure
sparking performance or h.t. voltage output from the coil so can't
factually confirm by observation, a 16 year old condenser vs. a brand
new one seems to show a distinct degradation in performance. the
distributor with the old condenser works ok, no real problems, but
there's just no "pep" to the motor. the distributor with the new
condenser solves all that. in all other respects, my distributors are
identical. so, if your 88-91 civic lacks a little in the "pep"
department, consider condenser replacement - works for me.

jim beam wrote:
> i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster
> performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the
> distributor. well, i'd kinda forgotten the degree of difference this
> change made, so when i revisited this situation again last weekend, i
> was surprised to confirm the same effect.
>
> long story short, after my last igniter failure, i'd been looking for a
> spare distributor "just in case" so i could keep it in the trunk rather
> than pay $300+ towing charges in the event of another breakdown.
> finally, i managed to find a spare oem distributor [$10!!! thank you
> craigslist!!!], tested it and put it on my car. it worked fine and the
> car fired up immediately. /but/, performance was very ho-hum. double
> checked the timing, no problems. put the old distributor [new
> condenser] back on, checked the timing, and hey presto! back to driving
> being a ripping good time again! this was /exactly/ the scenario i'd
> experienced before.
>
> the moral of the story: while i have no convenient means to measure
> sparking performance or h.t. voltage output from the coil so can't
> factually confirm by observation, a 16 year old condenser vs. a brand
> new one seems to show a distinct degradation in performance. the
> distributor with the old condenser works ok, no real problems, but
> there's just no "pep" to the motor. the distributor with the new
> condenser solves all that. in all other respects, my distributors are
> identical. so, if your 88-91 civic lacks a little in the "pep"
> department, consider condenser replacement - works for me.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==
Call around to the electronic repair services. I bet you will find one
that has a Honda owner and teh equipment to measure the
charactorisitics
of that capacitor. Given how hot the entire assembly runs at, I
wouldn't
be suprised if the value shifted, the "dialectric absorbtion" shot up,
or the ESR increased. Any of these will result in less effective
capacitance.

Terry

wrote in
oups.com:

>
> jim beam wrote:
>> i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster
>> performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the
>> distributor. well, i'd kinda forgotten the degree of difference this
>> change made, so when i revisited this situation again last weekend, i
>> was surprised to confirm the same effect.
>>
>> long story short, after my last igniter failure, i'd been looking for a
>> spare distributor "just in case" so i could keep it in the trunk rather
>> than pay $300+ towing charges in the event of another breakdown.
>> finally, i managed to find a spare oem distributor [$10!!! thank you
>> craigslist!!!], tested it and put it on my car. it worked fine and the
>> car fired up immediately. /but/, performance was very ho-hum. double
>> checked the timing, no problems. put the old distributor [new
>> condenser] back on, checked the timing, and hey presto! back to driving
>> being a ripping good time again! this was /exactly/ the scenario i'd
>> experienced before.
>>
>> the moral of the story: while i have no convenient means to measure
>> sparking performance or h.t. voltage output from the coil so can't
>> factually confirm by observation, a 16 year old condenser vs. a brand
>> new one seems to show a distinct degradation in performance. the
>> distributor with the old condenser works ok, no real problems, but
>> there's just no "pep" to the motor. the distributor with the new
>> condenser solves all that. in all other respects, my distributors are
>> identical. so, if your 88-91 civic lacks a little in the "pep"
>> department, consider condenser replacement - works for me.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==
> Call around to the electronic repair services. I bet you will find one
> that has a Honda owner and teh equipment to measure the
> charactorisitics
> of that capacitor. Given how hot the entire assembly runs at, I
> wouldn't
> be suprised if the value shifted, the "dialectric absorbtion" shot up,
> or the ESR increased. Any of these will result in less effective
> capacitance.
>


And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark?

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>
>>jim beam wrote:
>>
>>>i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster
>>>performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the
>>>distributor. well, i'd kinda forgotten the degree of difference this
>>>change made, so when i revisited this situation again last weekend, i
>>>was surprised to confirm the same effect.
>>>
>>>long story short, after my last igniter failure, i'd been looking for a
>>>spare distributor "just in case" so i could keep it in the trunk rather
>>>than pay $300+ towing charges in the event of another breakdown.
>>>finally, i managed to find a spare oem distributor [$10!!! thank you
>>>craigslist!!!], tested it and put it on my car. it worked fine and the
>>>car fired up immediately. /but/, performance was very ho-hum. double
>>>checked the timing, no problems. put the old distributor [new
>>>condenser] back on, checked the timing, and hey presto! back to driving
>>>being a ripping good time again! this was /exactly/ the scenario i'd
>>>experienced before.
>>>
>>>the moral of the story: while i have no convenient means to measure
>>>sparking performance or h.t. voltage output from the coil so can't
>>>factually confirm by observation, a 16 year old condenser vs. a brand
>>>new one seems to show a distinct degradation in performance. the
>>>distributor with the old condenser works ok, no real problems, but
>>>there's just no "pep" to the motor. the distributor with the new
>>>condenser solves all that. in all other respects, my distributors are
>>>identical. so, if your 88-91 civic lacks a little in the "pep"
>>>department, consider condenser replacement - works for me.
>>
>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==
>>Call around to the electronic repair services. I bet you will find one
>>that has a Honda owner and teh equipment to measure the
>>charactorisitics
>>of that capacitor. Given how hot the entire assembly runs at, I
>>wouldn't
>>be suprised if the value shifted, the "dialectric absorbtion" shot up,
>>or the ESR increased. Any of these will result in less effective
>>capacitance.
>>
>
>
>
> And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark?
>
yes, lower spark energy. this affects output - to a degree.

jim beam > wrote in
t:

> TeGGeR® wrote:

>>
>> And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark?
>>
> yes, lower spark energy. this affects output - to a degree.
>
>


Would this condenser perform the same sort of role a Kettering condenser
would?

My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even shows it,
but is totally silent on what it's there for.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster
>>performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the
>>distributor. well, i'd kinda forgotten the degree of difference this
>>change made, so when i revisited this situation again last weekend, i
>>was surprised to confirm the same effect.
>>
>>long story short, after my last igniter failure, i'd been looking for a
>>spare distributor "just in case" so i could keep it in the trunk rather
>>than pay $300+ towing charges in the event of another breakdown.
>>finally, i managed to find a spare oem distributor [$10!!! thank you
>>craigslist!!!], tested it and put it on my car. it worked fine and the
>>car fired up immediately. /but/, performance was very ho-hum. double
>>checked the timing, no problems. put the old distributor [new
>>condenser] back on, checked the timing, and hey presto! back to driving
>>being a ripping good time again! this was /exactly/ the scenario i'd
>>experienced before.
>>
>>the moral of the story: while i have no convenient means to measure
>>sparking performance or h.t. voltage output from the coil so can't
>>factually confirm by observation, a 16 year old condenser vs. a brand
>>new one seems to show a distinct degradation in performance. the
>>distributor with the old condenser works ok, no real problems, but
>>there's just no "pep" to the motor. the distributor with the new
>>condenser solves all that. in all other respects, my distributors are
>>identical. so, if your 88-91 civic lacks a little in the "pep"
>>department, consider condenser replacement - works for me.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==
> Call around to the electronic repair services. I bet you will find one
> that has a Honda owner and teh equipment to measure the
> charactorisitics
> of that capacitor. Given how hot the entire assembly runs at, I
> wouldn't
> be suprised if the value shifted, the "dialectric absorbtion" shot up,
> or the ESR increased. Any of these will result in less effective
> capacitance.
>
> Terry
>
thanks terry! i have a capacitance function on my cheapo dvm, and it
read the correct value cold. but i didn't check hot or at working
voltage [obviously]. guess that'll be another project some time.

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> t:
>
>
>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>
>
>>>And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark?
>>>
>>
>>yes, lower spark energy. this affects output - to a degree.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Would this condenser perform the same sort of role a Kettering condenser
> would?

yes, identical function.

>
> My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even shows it,
> but is totally silent on what it's there for.
>
if your car has plenty of pep to it, i wouldn't worry about it.
afterall, your climate is cold enough that you're still on your original
igniter, correct? heat is my suspicion for the condenser degradation on
my car.

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> t:
>
> > TeGGeR® wrote:
>
> >>
> >> And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark?
> >>
> > yes, lower spark energy. this affects output - to a degree.
> >
> >
>
>
> Would this condenser perform the same sort of role a Kettering condenser
> would?
>
> My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even shows it,
> but is totally silent on what it's there for.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
++++++++++++++++++++++
Until Jim posted his experiences with the capacitor I wouild have bet
it was only for RF noise supresion. In the Kettereing system, it's main
prupose was to reduce pitting of the breaker points. And it went across
the points. I don'thave a diagram with me, but I think the cap in the
Honda Civic is across the +12 coming into the coil. I am going to have
to do some experiments and try to understand this. Perhaps, and this
is all theory, the capacitor charges between pulses and reduces the
effect of the inductance in the wiring. Kind of a stretch, but it
almost makes sense.
Capacitors have several failure modes.
The most common is a reduction the amount of capacitance.

Next is ESR, Effective Series Resistance. This is like
adding a resistor in series with the cap. A very common
failure mode for electrolytics.

And the last odd ball failure mode is Dielectric Absorbtion,
AKA "Capacitor Soakage". I am unfamiliar with this being an
issue with modern film caps. But cooking one for days on end
could change the charactoristics of the dielectric.

Loss of capacitance is the most common, and ESR is second.
Either will reduce the ablilty of a cap to sotre and release
energy.

Rereading this I see it might be possible for "noise" from the
ignition coil to get back to the ECM if the capacitor isn't there
to supress it. This could result in the ECM making wrong commands.
But I would expect such a gross error condition to produce back
firing as well a loss of performance. When the internal tansistor
switch turns off there is a heck of a back EMF induced onto the
12V power rail. I will have to look at it with a oscilloscope
adn see what, if any, amplitude pulses are created. I would expect
the noise to be effectivly surpessed by the lead acid battery.
But who knows. Fast rise time noise is more like RF then DC and
can do some very "funny" things.

Terry

"jim beam" > wrote
snip
> if your car has plenty of pep to it, i wouldn't worry about it.
> afterall, your climate is cold enough that you're still on your original
> igniter, correct? heat is my suspicion for the condenser degradation on
> my car.

Tegger, hey, hope you didn't miss this query from Jim. That would knock my
proverbial socks off if your 91 Integra were still on its original ignitor.

Is it?

jim beam > wrote in
:

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> jim beam > wrote in
>> t:
>>
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced
>>>>spark?
>>>>
>>>
>>>yes, lower spark energy. this affects output - to a degree.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Would this condenser perform the same sort of role a Kettering
>> condenser would?
>
> yes, identical function.


Are you sure? It's in the line from ignition switch to coil, which suggests
to me that it's there to prevent back-voltage from getting to the ignition
switch.

Kettering condensers absorb primary voltage for a time to keep the coil
field from collapsing until the points are far apart, to prevent flashover.
Transistorized systems don't need that, do they?


>
>>
>> My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even shows
>> it, but is totally silent on what it's there for.
>>
> if your car has plenty of pep to it, i wouldn't worry about it.
> afterall, your climate is cold enough that you're still on your
> original igniter, correct?


Yep. Distributor internals are 100% original except for the rotor.


> heat is my suspicion for the condenser
> degradation on my car.
>

Electronics really hate heat, don't they?



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/