1999 Integra: erratic idle problem

My 1999 Integra has an annoying problem which has yet to
be diagnosed by Acura service. I'm about to make my 3rd trip
there.

Here are the symptoms: after the car has been driven for about 5 minutes
and is put in park, the RPM's fluctuate between 1500 and 2000, back and
forth, about once every two seconds. The "check engine" light is usually triggered
(if it isn't on already), and the engine runs roughly after that. However,
the problem isn't consistent and doesn't always appear during my 8-minute
commute to work. Sometimes, after several days, the "check engine" light will
turn off...only to return again with the symptoms described.

Acura service has scanned the code twice now. The first time, they claimed
that it was "noise" and cleared the code. The car ran fine until I got it home,
at which time the fluctuating RPM's appeared when I put the car in park.

The second time, they claimed that I needed a new air filter and spark plugs.
The bill came to $248 ($54 of which was to scan the code.) The "check engine"
light was gone when I drove it away, but returned when I placed the car in park in
my driveway.

Does this problem sound familiar to anybody? I'm worried that I'm going to
be spending a lot more time and money for Acura to scan codes but not fix
the problem.

Thanks in advance!

Dan

Dan Peduzzi wrote:
> My 1999 Integra has an annoying problem which has yet to
> be diagnosed by Acura service. I'm about to make my 3rd trip
> there.
>
> Here are the symptoms: after the car has been driven for about 5 minutes
> and is put in park, the RPM's fluctuate between 1500 and 2000, back and
> forth, about once every two seconds. The "check engine" light is usually triggered
> (if it isn't on already), and the engine runs roughly after that. However,
> the problem isn't consistent and doesn't always appear during my 8-minute
> commute to work. Sometimes, after several days, the "check engine" light will
> turn off...only to return again with the symptoms described.
>
> Acura service has scanned the code twice now. The first time, they claimed
> that it was "noise" and cleared the code. The car ran fine until I got it home,
> at which time the fluctuating RPM's appeared when I put the car in park.
>
> The second time, they claimed that I needed a new air filter and spark plugs.
> The bill came to $248 ($54 of which was to scan the code.) The "check engine"
> light was gone when I drove it away, but returned when I placed the car in park in
> my driveway.
>
> Does this problem sound familiar to anybody? I'm worried that I'm going to
> be spending a lot more time and money for Acura to scan codes but not fix
> the problem.
>

It could be that you have an air bubble in your coolant system. Not
sure if your integra has an air bleeder valve (check your repair manual
for the procedure) - if so, it can be opened to let the air out.
Another way is to burp the system by opening the radiator, start the
car, let it run and watch the coolant level drop. As it drops, add more
coolant. Goose the engine from time to time. Eventually you'll hear the
system burp, removing the air from the system.
Be sure to use honda approved coolant fluid.

Also check for vacuum leaks, as that is also a common cause.

Remco

Remco wrote:
> Dan Peduzzi wrote:
>
>>My 1999 Integra has an annoying problem which has yet to
>>be diagnosed by Acura service. I'm about to make my 3rd trip
>>there.
>>
>>Here are the symptoms: after the car has been driven for about 5 minutes
>>and is put in park, the RPM's fluctuate between 1500 and 2000, back and
>>forth, about once every two seconds. The "check engine" light is usually triggered
>>(if it isn't on already), and the engine runs roughly after that. However,
>>the problem isn't consistent and doesn't always appear during my 8-minute
>>commute to work. Sometimes, after several days, the "check engine" light will
>>turn off...only to return again with the symptoms described.
>>
>>Acura service has scanned the code twice now. The first time, they claimed
>>that it was "noise" and cleared the code. The car ran fine until I got it home,
>>at which time the fluctuating RPM's appeared when I put the car in park.
>>
>>The second time, they claimed that I needed a new air filter and spark plugs.
>>The bill came to $248 ($54 of which was to scan the code.) The "check engine"
>>light was gone when I drove it away, but returned when I placed the car in park in
>>my driveway.
>>
>>Does this problem sound familiar to anybody? I'm worried that I'm going to
>>be spending a lot more time and money for Acura to scan codes but not fix
>>the problem.
>>
>
>
> It could be that you have an air bubble in your coolant system. Not
> sure if your integra has an air bleeder valve (check your repair manual
> for the procedure) - if so, it can be opened to let the air out.
> Another way is to burp the system by opening the radiator, start the
> car, let it run and watch the coolant level drop. As it drops, add more
> coolant. Goose the engine from time to time. Eventually you'll hear the
> system burp, removing the air from the system.
> Be sure to use honda approved coolant fluid.
>
> Also check for vacuum leaks, as that is also a common cause.
>
> Remco
>

i second all that. and suggest the op finds a different dealer. this
should be a simple problem to fix. to charge all that money and go
through the effort of 3 visits /not/ to get it fixed is just ridiculous.

Dan Peduzzi wrote:
> My 1999 Integra has an annoying problem which has yet to
> be diagnosed by Acura service. I'm about to make my 3rd trip
> there.
>
> Here are the symptoms: after the car has been driven for about 5 minutes
> and is put in park, the RPM's fluctuate between 1500 and 2000, back and
> forth, about once every two seconds. The "check engine" light is usually triggered
> (if it isn't on already), and the engine runs roughly after that. However,
> the problem isn't consistent and doesn't always appear during my 8-minute
> commute to work. Sometimes, after several days, the "check engine" light will
> turn off...only to return again with the symptoms described.
>
> Acura service has scanned the code twice now. The first time, they claimed
> that it was "noise" and cleared the code. The car ran fine until I got it home,
> at which time the fluctuating RPM's appeared when I put the car in park.
>
> The second time, they claimed that I needed a new air filter and spark plugs.
> The bill came to $248 ($54 of which was to scan the code.) The "check engine"
> light was gone when I drove it away, but returned when I placed the car in park in
> my driveway.
>
> Does this problem sound familiar to anybody? I'm worried that I'm going to
> be spending a lot more time and money for Acura to scan codes but not fix
> the problem.

what were the exact codes? for $54 they should have at least told you
the code/s that were triggered, even if they were "noise", whatever that
means.

Dan Peduzzi wrote:
>
> My 1999 Integra has an annoying problem which has yet to
> be diagnosed by Acura service. I'm about to make my 3rd trip
> there.
>
> Here are the symptoms: after the car has been driven for about 5 minutes
> and is put in park, the RPM's fluctuate between 1500 and 2000, back and
> forth, about once every two seconds. The "check engine" light is usually triggered
> (if it isn't on already), and the engine runs roughly after that. However,
> the problem isn't consistent and doesn't always appear during my 8-minute
> commute to work. Sometimes, after several days, the "check engine" light will
> turn off...only to return again with the symptoms described.
>
> Acura service has scanned the code twice now. The first time, they claimed
> that it was "noise" and cleared the code. The car ran fine until I got it home,
> at which time the fluctuating RPM's appeared when I put the car in park.
>
> The second time, they claimed that I needed a new air filter and spark plugs.
> The bill came to $248 ($54 of which was to scan the code.) The "check engine"
> light was gone when I drove it away, but returned when I placed the car in park in
> my driveway.
>
> Does this problem sound familiar to anybody? I'm worried that I'm going to
> be spending a lot more time and money for Acura to scan codes but not fix
> the problem.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dan
>
-------------------------------

If you 'burp' the cooling system, be sure to fill the reservoir to MAX,
since the engine will want to take in coolant to replenish the air it
burps out. Check the reservoir next morning for a couple of days and top
up again. Use a flashlight and look from the side of the reservoir.

'Curly'

Remco wrote:
> Dan Peduzzi wrote:
> >
> > Here are the symptoms: after the car has been driven for about 5 minutes
> > and is put in park, the RPM's fluctuate between 1500 and 2000, back and
> > forth, about once every two seconds. The "check engine" light is usually triggered
> > (if it isn't on already), and the engine runs roughly after that. However,
> > the problem isn't consistent and doesn't always appear during my 8-minute
> > commute to work. Sometimes, after several days, the "check engine" light will
> > turn off...only to return again with the symptoms described.
>
> It could be that you have an air bubble in your coolant system. Not
> sure if your integra has an air bleeder valve (check your repair manual
> for the procedure) - if so, it can be opened to let the air out.
> Another way is to burp the system by opening the radiator, start the
> car, let it run and watch the coolant level drop. As it drops, add more
> coolant. Goose the engine from time to time. Eventually you'll hear the
> system burp, removing the air from the system.
> Be sure to use honda approved coolant fluid.

Might that be my problem too?

Here's my story:

Last week I ended up running my 90 Civic for ~20 minutes
without coolant due to a radiator leak; temp gauge was pegged :^(
(I was trying to get to a concert, FWIW...)

I had the radiator replaced, but now it runs rough when accelerating
:^(
Idling is generally OK, and the problem sometimes takes a few minutes
to
show up after starting (but before the temp gauge needle starts to
move).
Reservoir was full after the rad. change, but I haven't checked it
since this started...

Some brief googling in this group indicates it could be any of the
following:

Air bubble
Blown head gasket
Cracked head
Cracked block
Bad O2 sensor/PCV
Bad main relay (I resoldered it a couple months ago for not starting).
Fuel filter
Fuel pump
Spark plugs (originals are still on it)

I haven't noticed the dreaded "white smoke" in the exhaust,
nor the "milky oil" indicating a gasket/head/block problem,
but maybe they don't always cause those symptoms?

It's also due for an oil change, but I doubt that will help -
it's been dripping a few drops of oil after I park it, and was
right at the add mark last night - I added a quart but no help...

I also threw in a bottle of dry gas thinking there might be water in
the
tank, but again, no help. Fuel tank was replaced about six months ago.

If it's not the filter/plugs (can I change either myself, or let the
local garage do them?), I'll probably have to take it to the dealer,
but that's such a pain - they're on the other side of town,
and I'm not sure how well the buses run out there :^(
(It's probably too much to expect to get a loaner...)

And I'm not thrilled with the typical troubleshooting method of
"change this, if that doesn't fix it, change something else, repeat"
:^(

If it _is_ "just" the head gasket (or maybe the head), should I
go ahead and have that done, and maybe also change the timing belt
and flush the transmission? Car has 117k miles on it, original belt,
and transmission was only flushed once (around 25k miles, I think).

Or is it time to replace it? I hate to do that after sinking $1k into
it
this year between the fuel tank, body work to get through inspection,
and now the radiator :^( Plus I'm still bummed that there're no
hatchback
Civics w/ automatic transmissions, but maybe I could choke down
one of the Civic coupes, maybe even a hybrid...

If it's the engine block, that will probably make up my mind for me :^(

Ron

wrote:
> Remco wrote:
> > Dan Peduzzi wrote:
> > >
> > > Here are the symptoms: after the car has been driven for about 5 minutes
> > > and is put in park, the RPM's fluctuate between 1500 and 2000, back and
> > > forth, about once every two seconds. The "check engine" light is usually triggered
> > > (if it isn't on already), and the engine runs roughly after that. However,
> > > the problem isn't consistent and doesn't always appear during my 8-minute
> > > commute to work. Sometimes, after several days, the "check engine" light will
> > > turn off...only to return again with the symptoms described.
> >
> > It could be that you have an air bubble in your coolant system. Not
> > sure if your integra has an air bleeder valve (check your repair manual
> > for the procedure) - if so, it can be opened to let the air out.
> > Another way is to burp the system by opening the radiator, start the
> > car, let it run and watch the coolant level drop. As it drops, add more
> > coolant. Goose the engine from time to time. Eventually you'll hear the
> > system burp, removing the air from the system.
> > Be sure to use honda approved coolant fluid.
>
> Might that be my problem too?
>
> Here's my story:
>
> Last week I ended up running my 90 Civic for ~20 minutes
> without coolant due to a radiator leak; temp gauge was pegged :^(
> (I was trying to get to a concert, FWIW...)
>
> I had the radiator replaced, but now it runs rough when accelerating
> :^(
> Idling is generally OK, and the problem sometimes takes a few minutes
> to
> show up after starting (but before the temp gauge needle starts to
> move).
> Reservoir was full after the rad. change, but I haven't checked it
> since this started...
>
> Some brief googling in this group indicates it could be any of the
> following:
>
> Air bubble
> Blown head gasket
> Cracked head
> Cracked block
> Bad O2 sensor/PCV
> Bad main relay (I resoldered it a couple months ago for not starting).
> Fuel filter
> Fuel pump
> Spark plugs (originals are still on it)
>
> I haven't noticed the dreaded "white smoke" in the exhaust,
> nor the "milky oil" indicating a gasket/head/block problem,
> but maybe they don't always cause those symptoms?
>
> It's also due for an oil change, but I doubt that will help -
> it's been dripping a few drops of oil after I park it, and was
> right at the add mark last night - I added a quart but no help...
>
> I also threw in a bottle of dry gas thinking there might be water in
> the
> tank, but again, no help. Fuel tank was replaced about six months ago.
>
> If it's not the filter/plugs (can I change either myself, or let the
> local garage do them?), I'll probably have to take it to the dealer,
> but that's such a pain - they're on the other side of town,
> and I'm not sure how well the buses run out there :^(
> (It's probably too much to expect to get a loaner...)
>
> And I'm not thrilled with the typical troubleshooting method of
> "change this, if that doesn't fix it, change something else, repeat"
> :^(
>
> If it _is_ "just" the head gasket (or maybe the head), should I
> go ahead and have that done, and maybe also change the timing belt
> and flush the transmission? Car has 117k miles on it, original belt,
> and transmission was only flushed once (around 25k miles, I think).
>
> Or is it time to replace it? I hate to do that after sinking $1k into
> it
> this year between the fuel tank, body work to get through inspection,
> and now the radiator :^( Plus I'm still bummed that there're no
> hatchback
> Civics w/ automatic transmissions, but maybe I could choke down
> one of the Civic coupes, maybe even a hybrid...
>
> If it's the engine block, that will probably make up my mind for me :^(
>
> Ron

If the thermosensor is not really in contact with coolant, it doesn't
see the real temperature and tells the computer about it. The computer
tries to make an adjustment based on that bad measurement and the car
can start to run like a heap. Not sure on your car, but usually there
are two sensors: one for the dashboard, one for the computer - so not
seeing your dash temp move may not mean very much.
Yes, I'd try and burp the system on your car, especially if you've had
it running hot
(you are one lucky man if you did not do damage).

As a side point, you mentioned you didn't have the belt replaced. You
are talking about the timing belt, I take it?
If so, at 117K you are past due - civics/integras should them replaced
at 90K, I think.
They do break without warning and can/will do a lot of damage to your
car.
While I doubt it has anything to do with the rough running at this
time, do yourself a favor and replace it ASAP so you won't have to go
through a really expensive repair.

Remco

Remco wrote:

> If the thermosensor is not really in contact with coolant, it doesn't
> see the real temperature and tells the computer about it. The computer
> tries to make an adjustment based on that bad measurement and the car
> can start to run like a heap. Not sure on your car, but usually there
> are two sensors: one for the dashboard, one for the computer - so not
> seeing your dash temp move may not mean very much.

Could the overheating have damaged the computer's sensor?
Could it have gotten unhooked when the radiator was changed?

> Yes, I'd try and burp the system on your car, especially if you've
> had it running hot (you are one lucky man if you did not do damage).

It was a cold night and I didn't run it above 30 mph.
But burping didn't help - I popped the rad cap and
ran it for a couple minutes, but nothing happened :^(
Level was still at the top of the radiator.

Could it be the fuel filter or plugs or injectors? Seems like it
should run
poorly soon after starting for any of them, not take several minutes...


I doubt it's the air filter as I popped the cover over the fuel
injectors
(or whatever the hose from the air filter is feeding) and that didn't
help :^(

> As a side point, you mentioned you didn't have the belt replaced.
> You are talking about the timing belt, I take it? If so, at 117K
> you are past due - civics/integras should them replaced at 90K, I think.
> They do break without warning and can/will do a lot of damage to your car.

I hear you, but I wonder what safety factor is built into that 90k
recommendation?
I.e., what's the range where they break, or don't people keep them long
enough for useful data?

Ron

wrote:
> Remco wrote:
>
> > If the thermosensor is not really in contact with coolant, it doesn't
> > see the real temperature and tells the computer about it. The computer
> > tries to make an adjustment based on that bad measurement and the car
> > can start to run like a heap. Not sure on your car, but usually there
> > are two sensors: one for the dashboard, one for the computer - so not
> > seeing your dash temp move may not mean very much.
>
> Could the overheating have damaged the computer's sensor?
> Could it have gotten unhooked when the radiator was changed?
>
> > Yes, I'd try and burp the system on your car, especially if you've
> > had it running hot (you are one lucky man if you did not do damage).
>
> It was a cold night and I didn't run it above 30 mph.
> But burping didn't help - I popped the rad cap and
> ran it for a couple minutes, but nothing happened :^(
> Level was still at the top of the radiator.
>
> Could it be the fuel filter or plugs or injectors? Seems like it
> should run
> poorly soon after starting for any of them, not take several minutes...
>
>
> I doubt it's the air filter as I popped the cover over the fuel
> injectors
> (or whatever the hose from the air filter is feeding) and that didn't
> help :^(
>
> > As a side point, you mentioned you didn't have the belt replaced.
> > You are talking about the timing belt, I take it? If so, at 117K
> > you are past due - civics/integras should them replaced at 90K, I think.
> > They do break without warning and can/will do a lot of damage to your car.
>
> I hear you, but I wonder what safety factor is built into that 90k
> recommendation?
> I.e., what's the range where they break, or don't people keep them long
> enough for useful data?
>

I wonder if maybe you need a head gasget...
Overheating a car like that is a really bad idea.

Do you ever see white smoke when you start the car or while driving?
Any different color crud in your coolant overflow tank? (brownish
color)

Well, I don't know what the Main Time Between Failure of a belt is but
general consensus is to replace it at 90K -- one would hope that's
probably on the lower portion of the bell curve where you see failure.
I'd get it done soon, seriously.

Remco

wrote:
> I.e., what's the range where they break, or don't people keep them long
> enough for useful data?

it *could* break at any time. it could last as long as you own the car.

i wouldnt be surprised if half the hondas out there never get a timing
belt replacement. might be 200k or longer before the neglected belt
snaps, and by then the car is usually pretty ratty looking.

the manual for my 98 CX says something like 108k miles *or* 7 years,
whichever comes first.

right now ive got 51k on it, and this past may was the 7 year mark. im
not sweating it. the car is garaged most of the time, driven only a
couple times a week and is in a climate thats not too harsh on rubber.

basically, its my gamble. i doubt ill wait another 7 years for it to hit
108k miles. but im not going to replace it at 51k, either.