strange transmission problem and theory

1989 grand voyager, around 200,000 miles, runs great, used to drive
perfectly until this morning. No fault codes displayed on dashboard.

I have had several Chrysler minivan transmission failures, so I'm
familiar with the classic symptoms. This transmission is different. It
doesn't leak a drop and there were no warnings, it was a sudden
problem. My wife was driving. She described a whining noise, then the
transmission stopped transferring power, as if it had been placed in
neutral. After a short while it would have a burst of action and then
stop again. She managed to drive in short lurches and get it parked
safely off the street.

After work I arrived with a tow rope but decided to see what the van
would do. I heard the mild whining noise. The van backed up, then went
forward normally for about a hundred feet or so. After that it would
cut out, then it would lurch forward again. After a short time,
nothing. So I towed it home.

Here's the odd part. I used to have another van that leaked a lot of
fluid before I sold it to somebody who really wanted to fix it. When it
was low on fluid, it would get starved for fluid whenever I stopped
suddenly, presumably because the fluid would all lurch forward. Then
when the traffic light turned green I would rev the engine up and it
would just sit, until it had sucked up enough fluid again and then it
would lurch. This is exactly the same feeling I got today from my
current van, the only difference being that the current van in question
is properly filled with the proper fluid. The strange thing is that
when I pulled the dipstick after driving 100 feet, I noticed a lot of
little tiny bubbles in the fluid on the stick, as if the transmission
had been sucking air. It also occurs to me that air in a hydraulic
system can cause a whining noise.

Here's my theory and question. Is it possible that the filter may have
fallen off the bottom of the transmission into the pan, rendering the
transmission unable to pick up fluid? Could this account for the little
bubbles on the dipstick? Is this even remotely possible? I understand
that this filter is held on by a small bolt, so it seems unlikely that
it would fall off. But I have never had this transmission apart, which
means that somebody else put the filter on. I don't have a problem with
taking the pan off. I just wondered what you guys think of the symptoms
I have described. Can you think of another reason why a van might act
as if it is starved for fluid and have tiny bubbles on the dipstick?

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:56:38 -0600, Robbie and Laura Reynolds
> wrote:

>1989 grand voyager, around 200,000 miles, runs great, used to drive
>perfectly until this morning. No fault codes displayed on dashboard.
>
>I have had several Chrysler minivan transmission failures, so I'm
>familiar with the classic symptoms. This transmission is different. It
>doesn't leak a drop and there were no warnings, it was a sudden
>problem. My wife was driving. She described a whining noise, then the
>transmission stopped transferring power, as if it had been placed in
>neutral. After a short while it would have a burst of action and then
>stop again. She managed to drive in short lurches and get it parked
>safely off the street.
>
>After work I arrived with a tow rope but decided to see what the van
>would do. I heard the mild whining noise. The van backed up, then went
>forward normally for about a hundred feet or so. After that it would
>cut out, then it would lurch forward again. After a short time,
>nothing. So I towed it home.
>
>Here's the odd part. I used to have another van that leaked a lot of
>fluid before I sold it to somebody who really wanted to fix it. When it
>was low on fluid, it would get starved for fluid whenever I stopped
>suddenly, presumably because the fluid would all lurch forward. Then
>when the traffic light turned green I would rev the engine up and it
>would just sit, until it had sucked up enough fluid again and then it
>would lurch. This is exactly the same feeling I got today from my
>current van, the only difference being that the current van in question
>is properly filled with the proper fluid. The strange thing is that
>when I pulled the dipstick after driving 100 feet, I noticed a lot of
>little tiny bubbles in the fluid on the stick, as if the transmission
>had been sucking air. It also occurs to me that air in a hydraulic
>system can cause a whining noise.
>
>Here's my theory and question. Is it possible that the filter may have
>fallen off the bottom of the transmission into the pan, rendering the
>transmission unable to pick up fluid? Could this account for the little
>bubbles on the dipstick? Is this even remotely possible? I understand
>that this filter is held on by a small bolt, so it seems unlikely that
>it would fall off. But I have never had this transmission apart, which
>means that somebody else put the filter on. I don't have a problem with
>taking the pan off. I just wondered what you guys think of the symptoms
>I have described. Can you think of another reason why a van might act
>as if it is starved for fluid and have tiny bubbles on the dipstick?


Definitely worth a try. What have you to lose?? The theory sounds
plausible.

wrote:

> Definitely worth a try. What have you to lose?? The theory sounds
> plausible.


That's how I was approaching the situation. I'll certainly open it up
tomorrow after work and see what's going on in there. I just can't
think of any other good reason why it would do what it's doing. There
are a few weird things about the situation. It seems like when a
transmission is failing, it will wait for a moment and then get itself
together enough to start going down the road. This one will go at full
power and then stop.

Other info please? Transmission rebuilt previously and when? Fluid and
filter changes at what intervals? Which fluid was used? Any other symptoms
or error/diagnostic codes? Did you check the fluid level? Was it possibly
overfilled causing it to whip up the air bubble mixture? Was it low?

Bob



"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> wrote:
>
> > Definitely worth a try. What have you to lose?? The theory sounds
> > plausible.
>
>
> That's how I was approaching the situation. I'll certainly open it up
> tomorrow after work and see what's going on in there. I just can't
> think of any other good reason why it would do what it's doing. There
> are a few weird things about the situation. It seems like when a
> transmission is failing, it will wait for a moment and then get itself
> together enough to start going down the road. This one will go at full
> power and then stop.

As it turned out, the reason why the transmission couldn't draw fluid
was because of a clogged filter. I changed it and the fluid, just to
see what would happen, and the van ran great again, for about 30 minutes
and about 20 miles. Then it had another attack. This morning I decided
to see what it would do, and now it won't do anything in reverse, but
forward is normal except that it gets starved and quits, just like it
did the other day.

Now I'm thinking that although it has lost its reverse gear, if I
replace the filter again it would probably go forward, just like another
van that I used to have. I used to drive that other van all over town
and it worked normally, but I just couldn't back up.

I'll replace the filter again and see what happens. I'd much rather
have a no-reverse van for the cost of a filter change or two than to
replace the entire transmission, at least for now. After I get a spare
vehicle I might go ahead and tear into this one and see about getting it
to work normally.

"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" > wrote in message
...
> As it turned out, the reason why the transmission couldn't draw fluid
> was because of a clogged filter. I changed it and the fluid, just to
> see what would happen, and the van ran great again, for about 30 minutes
> and about 20 miles. Then it had another attack. This morning I decided
> to see what it would do, and now it won't do anything in reverse, but
> forward is normal except that it gets starved and quits, just like it
> did the other day.
>
> Now I'm thinking that although it has lost its reverse gear, if I
> replace the filter again it would probably go forward, just like another
> van that I used to have. I used to drive that other van all over town
> and it worked normally, but I just couldn't back up.
>
> I'll replace the filter again and see what happens. I'd much rather
> have a no-reverse van for the cost of a filter change or two than to
> replace the entire transmission, at least for now. After I get a spare
> vehicle I might go ahead and tear into this one and see about getting it
> to work normally.

Hi Robbie,

I think your just wasting fluid. I think what's happened is you have
had a gear failure, such as the front sun gear that failed on my
transmission, a pic of it is he

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co...pics/fig52.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co...pics/fig53.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co...pics/fig54.jpg

If the trans was in limp mode then you would have reverse.
No reverse means something is broken and you have metal
fragments throughout your trans lube system.

At this point, if you keep pushing it your taking a risk that
your going to bind up something hard at speed and the
transmission is going to grenade itself, and be completely
worthless as a rebuildable core, so if you ever do want to
get the thing fixed your going to have to pay even more
money. However there's a minor possibility that this has
already happened, and there's also a small possibility you could
nurse another year out of it - if your intending to just take
it to a wrecker when the transmission finally dies, then you
might not care.

If you feel up to it, a trans replacement is not that difficult
espically on a FWD van, why don't you call around to
wrecking yards and see if there's a good transmission out
there?

Ted

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

>
> If the trans was in limp mode then you would have reverse.
> No reverse means something is broken and you have metal
> fragments throughout your trans lube system.
>
> At this point, if you keep pushing it your taking a risk that
> your going to bind up something hard at speed and the
> transmission is going to grenade itself, and be completely
> worthless as a rebuildable core, so if you ever do want to
> get the thing fixed your going to have to pay even more
> money. However there's a minor possibility that this has
> already happened, and there's also a small possibility you could
> nurse another year out of it - if your intending to just take
> it to a wrecker when the transmission finally dies, then you
> might not care.
>
> If you feel up to it, a trans replacement is not that difficult
> espically on a FWD van, why don't you call around to
> wrecking yards and see if there's a good transmission out
> there?
>
> Ted


You could be right, but I did put about 50,000 miles on the other
no-reverse transmission before it died. I thought it was worth a try
with this one. There's a junk yard nearby that sells transmissions for
under $100. The only problem with that is that you don't ever know
whether it's a good one or not.

I took the pan off again, and it is full of shredded metal, after I
cleaned it out thoroughly Wednesday. I'm wondering now, if it has a
bunch of chunks on the bottom but it still drives forward and shifts, is
it likely to lose the forward gears as well, or could it work just like
my other van?

"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
> >
> > If the trans was in limp mode then you would have reverse.
> > No reverse means something is broken and you have metal
> > fragments throughout your trans lube system.
> >
> > At this point, if you keep pushing it your taking a risk that
> > your going to bind up something hard at speed and the
> > transmission is going to grenade itself, and be completely
> > worthless as a rebuildable core, so if you ever do want to
> > get the thing fixed your going to have to pay even more
> > money. However there's a minor possibility that this has
> > already happened, and there's also a small possibility you could
> > nurse another year out of it - if your intending to just take
> > it to a wrecker when the transmission finally dies, then you
> > might not care.
> >
> > If you feel up to it, a trans replacement is not that difficult
> > espically on a FWD van, why don't you call around to
> > wrecking yards and see if there's a good transmission out
> > there?
> >
> > Ted
>
>
> You could be right, but I did put about 50,000 miles on the other
> no-reverse transmission before it died. I thought it was worth a try
> with this one. There's a junk yard nearby that sells transmissions for
> under $100. The only problem with that is that you don't ever know
> whether it's a good one or not.
>
> I took the pan off again, and it is full of shredded metal, after I
> cleaned it out thoroughly Wednesday. I'm wondering now, if it has a
> bunch of chunks on the bottom but it still drives forward and shifts, is
> it likely to lose the forward gears as well, or could it work just like
> my other van?

The luck of the draw.

Te

the pump is losing prime take it in and have it replaced before a total
rebuild is needed

Robbie and Laura Reynolds wrote:

> As it turned out, the reason why the transmission couldn't draw fluid
> was because of a clogged filter. I changed it and the fluid, just to
> see what would happen, and the van ran great again, for about 30 minutes
> and about 20 miles. Then it had another attack. This morning I decided
> to see what it would do, and now it won't do anything in reverse, but
> forward is normal except that it gets starved and quits, just like it
> did the other day.
>
> Now I'm thinking that although it has lost its reverse gear, if I
> replace the filter again it would probably go forward, just like another
> van that I used to have. I used to drive that other van all over town
> and it worked normally, but I just couldn't back up.
>
> I'll replace the filter again and see what happens. I'd much rather
> have a no-reverse van for the cost of a filter change or two than to
> replace the entire transmission, at least for now. After I get a spare
> vehicle I might go ahead and tear into this one and see about getting it
> to work normally.

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
> "Robbie and Laura Reynolds" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I took the pan off again, and it is full of shredded metal, after I
> > cleaned it out thoroughly Wednesday. I'm wondering now, if it has a
> > bunch of chunks on the bottom but it still drives forward and shifts, is
> > it likely to lose the forward gears as well, or could it work just like
> > my other van going forward but not in reverse?
>
> The luck of the draw.

Here's the end of this story. It went forward for about 50 feet and
then quit, and now it's finished. I'll have to decide whether to put
another transmission in it, or if I just want to sell it for cheap to
somebody else who wants to put another transmission in it. It's a nice
enough van, an 89 Grand model with all the accessories and they all
work. Tough choice...