Oil and Filter Change

Mike Romain wrote:
> Built_Well wrote:
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> >> If I 'must' use a sheet metal notch as a jack point,
> >> I use a 2x4 on the saddle of the jack or stand to help
> >> spread out the pressure.
> > ========
> >
> > I don't think this would be a safe idea, Mike. I think
> > I saw on the box of some Craftsman jack stands a warning
> > not to place anything between the stands and the car.
> >
> > And here's a quote from the '06 Camry manual relating to
> > the jack itself, though not the stands:
> >
> > "When raising the vehicle, do not place any objects
> > on top of or underneath the jack."
> >
> > The same probably applies to the stands.
> > ========
>
> Note I said 'if I must'. I 'really really' try not to use rocker panels
> for lifting or bracing.
>
> Maybe not the safest, but you will see what I mean soon enough likely.
>
> I think spreading out the weight is safer than the jack going through
> the rocker panel.
>
> If you live someplace where they don't use salt on the roads, you might
> not run into this, but up here in the rust belt, the bottom of the
> rocker panels go soft first usually and that bottom edge seam is always
> ratty.
>
> The factory jack went right on up through the last two Volvo's I owned
> pressed seam jacking points on the rockers and neither of these vehicles
> was showing any rust.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
========

Thanks for telling us about the problem you ran into with the
Volvo side rails. Much appreciated.

I said the other day that I would not use the double notches
along the side rails to lift the car with a floor jack. I would
only use the double notches with jack stands after I had lifted
the car with a floor jack applied to the front end and rear end
jack points behind the bumpers.

But I still think it's very dangerous to place a wooden 2-by-4
between your car and the floor jack's saddle or jack stands.

Mike Romain wrote:

> It is far too dangerous getting all 4 corners up in the air...
========

Ray raises all 4 corners of the car completely off the ground
when he's rotating tires. He and Hachiroku also have an
interesting exchange from the archive from April 5, 2006.

Built_Well wrote:
> Mike Romain wrote:
>> Built_Well wrote:
>>> Mike Romain wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I 'must' use a sheet metal notch as a jack point,
>>>> I use a 2x4 on the saddle of the jack or stand to help
>>>> spread out the pressure.
>>> ========
>>>
>>> I don't think this would be a safe idea, Mike. I think
>>> I saw on the box of some Craftsman jack stands a warning
>>> not to place anything between the stands and the car.
>>>
>>> And here's a quote from the '06 Camry manual relating to
>>> the jack itself, though not the stands:
>>>
>>> "When raising the vehicle, do not place any objects
>>> on top of or underneath the jack."
>>>
>>> The same probably applies to the stands.
>>> ========
>> Note I said 'if I must'. I 'really really' try not to use rocker panels
>> for lifting or bracing.
>>
>> Maybe not the safest, but you will see what I mean soon enough likely.
>>
>> I think spreading out the weight is safer than the jack going through
>> the rocker panel.
>>
>> If you live someplace where they don't use salt on the roads, you might
>> not run into this, but up here in the rust belt, the bottom of the
>> rocker panels go soft first usually and that bottom edge seam is always
>> ratty.
>>
>> The factory jack went right on up through the last two Volvo's I owned
>> pressed seam jacking points on the rockers and neither of these vehicles
>> was showing any rust.
>>
>> Mike
>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> ========
>
> Thanks for telling us about the problem you ran into with the
> Volvo side rails. Much appreciated.
>
> I said the other day that I would not use the double notches
> along the side rails to lift the car with a floor jack. I would
> only use the double notches with jack stands after I had lifted
> the car with a floor jack applied to the front end and rear end
> jack points behind the bumpers.
>
> But I still think it's very dangerous to place a wooden 2-by-4
> between your car and the floor jack's saddle or jack stands.
>

I won't disagree on the safety of the 2x4 or just jacking in general
which is why I use the jack, a stand and toss the tire under the edge of
the vehicle before working on them, 2x4 or not...

They come down 'amazingly' easy.....

I crushed the first set of rocker panel jacking points with a hoist
back in the early 70's when I worked in garages and learned then that
they aren't strong enough on older vehicles here in the rust belt.

These won't hold the 'weight' of the vehicle, no matter what is pushing
on them, be it a jack, a hoist or a jack stand.

The problem is the damage happens before the vehicle actually 'looks'
like a rust bucket so at what point is it no longer safe?

You will see, just be careful.

Mike

Mike Romain wrote:

> My last few vehicles recommend front to rear rotations, so only one side
> goes up with a stand under the rear axle. (more room usually at the rear
> for a stand)_
> ____________
> If they are getting crossed, then the stand goes under the rear axle and
> the other side front corner goes up to swap those. Then the opposite is
> done.____________
> ______________
> It is much safer still having two tires down on the ground, things get
> really touchy when all four are hanging....
========

Having only one side of the car raised sounds dangerous to me.
I remember reading a warning on the box of a Craftsman or Walmart
jack stand that said the stands should /not/ be used to lift only
one side of the car.

It's okay to lift one /end/ of the car (front end and/or
rear end), but not one side (left side or right side).
At least that's what the box said.

Built_Well wrote:
> Mike Romain wrote:
>
>> My last few vehicles recommend front to rear rotations, so only one side
>> goes up with a stand under the rear axle. (more room usually at the rear
>> for a stand)_
>> ____________
>> If they are getting crossed, then the stand goes under the rear axle and
>> the other side front corner goes up to swap those. Then the opposite is
>> done.____________
>> ______________
>> It is much safer still having two tires down on the ground, things get
>> really touchy when all four are hanging....
> ========
>
> Having only one side of the car raised sounds dangerous to me.
> I remember reading a warning on the box of a Craftsman or Walmart
> jack stand that said the stands should /not/ be used to lift only
> one side of the car.
>
> It's okay to lift one /end/ of the car (front end and/or
> rear end), but not one side (left side or right side).
> At least that's what the box said.
>

None of it is 'safe'.

You used to be able to lift the rear end of vehicles by putting the jack
under the pumpkin so both back wheels came up at once. Same for a front
crossmember.

Now a days they make them so cheap, like the aluminum Dana 44 on some
Jeeps, the rear end will collapse under the weight of the vehicle if you
do this even when brand new!

One bad jacking and the thing will never hold a wheel bearing again....

I don't jack up 'one' side at a time, I do one corner at a time with the
vehicle in gear and the wheels touching the ground chocked.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...

Mike Romain wrote:
> Built_Well wrote:
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> >> My last few vehicles recommend front to rear rotations, so only one side
> >> goes up with a stand under the rear axle. (more room usually at the rear
> >> for a stand)_
> >> ____________
> >> If they are getting crossed, then the stand goes under the rear axle and
> >> the other side front corner goes up to swap those. Then the opposite is
> >> done.____________
> >> ______________
> >> It is much safer still having two tires down on the ground, things get
> >> really touchy when all four are hanging....
> > ========
> >
> > Having only one side of the car raised sounds dangerous to me.
> > I remember reading a warning on the box of a Craftsman or Walmart
> > jack stand that said the stands should /not/ be used to lift only
> > one side of the car.
> >
> > It's okay to lift one /end/ of the car (front end and/or
> > rear end), but not one side (left side or right side).
> > At least that's what the box said.
> >
>
> None of it is 'safe'.
>
> You used to be able to lift the rear end of vehicles by putting the jack
> under the pumpkin so both back wheels came up at once. Same for a front
> crossmember.
>
> Now a days they make them so cheap, like the aluminum Dana 44 on some
> Jeeps, the rear end will collapse under the weight of the vehicle if you
> do this even when brand new!
>
> One bad jacking and the thing will never hold a wheel bearing again....
>
> I don't jack up 'one' side at a time, I do one corner at a time with the
> vehicle in gear and the wheels touching the ground chocked.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
========

Thanks for the interesting discussion, Mike.

>From the archive, it sounds to me like Ray has even had
all 4 of his tires up on /ramps/ at the same time!

It appears he drove the front wheels up onto ramps, then
raised the rear with a floor jack and used two more ramps
and placed them under the rear wheels.

So he has had a car up on 4 ramps with no jack stands.
Interesting.

The car ramps available at Walmart are unique. The ramps
are constructed in a way that allows one to fit inside another.

Each single ramp can support 3,000 pounds, so a pair would be good
for 6,000. But if you stack 2 together (one on top of the other), a set
of 4 ramps can be used to lift the front end tires of a 12,000 pound
vehicle! That's what the stickers on the ramps say, anyway.

Built_Well wrote:
> Mike Romain wrote:
>> Built_Well wrote:
>>> Mike Romain wrote:
>>>
>>>> My last few vehicles recommend front to rear rotations, so only one side
>>>> goes up with a stand under the rear axle. (more room usually at the rear
>>>> for a stand)_
>>>> ____________
>>>> If they are getting crossed, then the stand goes under the rear axle and
>>>> the other side front corner goes up to swap those. Then the opposite is
>>>> done.____________
>>>> ______________
>>>> It is much safer still having two tires down on the ground, things get
>>>> really touchy when all four are hanging....
>>> ========
>>>
>>> Having only one side of the car raised sounds dangerous to me.
>>> I remember reading a warning on the box of a Craftsman or Walmart
>>> jack stand that said the stands should /not/ be used to lift only
>>> one side of the car.
>>>
>>> It's okay to lift one /end/ of the car (front end and/or
>>> rear end), but not one side (left side or right side).
>>> At least that's what the box said.
>>>
>> None of it is 'safe'.
>>
>> You used to be able to lift the rear end of vehicles by putting the jack
>> under the pumpkin so both back wheels came up at once. Same for a front
>> crossmember.
>>
>> Now a days they make them so cheap, like the aluminum Dana 44 on some
>> Jeeps, the rear end will collapse under the weight of the vehicle if you
>> do this even when brand new!
>>
>> One bad jacking and the thing will never hold a wheel bearing again....
>>
>> I don't jack up 'one' side at a time, I do one corner at a time with the
>> vehicle in gear and the wheels touching the ground chocked.
>>
>> Mike
>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> ========
>
> Thanks for the interesting discussion, Mike.
>
>>From the archive, it sounds to me like Ray has even had
> all 4 of his tires up on /ramps/ at the same time!
>
> It appears he drove the front wheels up onto ramps, then
> raised the rear with a floor jack and used two more ramps
> and placed them under the rear wheels.
>
> So he has had a car up on 4 ramps with no jack stands.
> Interesting.
>

That is one way to get lots of clearance to work under something.

I have seen more than one set of those 'cheap' ramps collapsed also.
They must be on a perfectly level and hard surface to be safe.

I think I should explain a bit more.

When doing a back to front rotation, only one corner has to be up on a
jack stand at a time...

The rear wheel gets the nuts loosened on the ground, then jacked up and
onto the jackstand, then you remove that tire and take that tire to the
front. You loosen off those front lug nuts, then jack it up, pull off
the tire and put the rear one right back on the front, snug up the lugs,
then jack it down, then take the front tire to the back, put it on, snug
up the lug nuts, jack it up to remove the stand and drop it down.

The lugnuts get torqued when everything is safely on the ground.

Mike

Built_Well wrote:
>
> The car ramps available at Walmart are unique. The ramps
> are constructed in a way that allows one to fit inside another.
>
> Each single ramp can support 3,000 pounds, so a pair would be good
> for 6,000. But if you stack 2 together (one on top of the other), a set
> of 4 ramps can be used to lift the front end tires of a 12,000 pound
> vehicle! That's what the stickers on the ramps say, anyway.

Based on the quality of so many products sold by Wal*Mart, getting under
a 12,000 pound load on those ramps would give me heebie-jeebies.

Mike Romain wrote:
========

> When doing a back to front rotation, only one corner has to be up on a
> jack stand at a time...
>
> The rear wheel gets the nuts loosened on the ground, then jacked up and
> onto the jackstand, then you remove that tire and take that tire to the
> front. You loosen off those front lug nuts, then jack it up, pull off
> the tire and put the rear one right back on the front, snug up the lugs,
> then jack it down, then take the front tire to the back, put it on, snug
> up the lug nuts, jack it up to remove the stand and drop it down.
>
> The lugnuts get torqued when everything is safely on the ground.
========

I don't mean to be picky, and you obviously have more
experience than I have with automobiles, but the
way you're rotating tires from front to rear means
you're only using /one/ jack stand while two wheels
are off the ground. You're using the floor jack to
support the front tire and the single jack stand to
support the rear tire.

Aren't floor jacks supposed to be used only for
lifting, not supporting? Jack stands are meant
to always be used in pairs, I think.