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E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 7th 06, 01:20 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
Mad Scientist Jr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?

Looking for some definitive (or at least of somewhat mainstream
credibility) numbers on E85 vs gasoline:

For production/hauling/storage/etc, end to end:
BTUs consumed to yield X BTUs from ethanol
vs
BTUs consumed to yield X BTUs from gasoline

and

Simply burning the stuff:
Pollutants produced per 100,000 BTU worth of E85 burned
vs
Pollutants produced per 100,000 BTU worth of Gasoline burned

Also what car models (SUVs too) will run on E85?

People talk about ethanol not being worth using because of the fossil
fuel needed to produce it. They are leaving out a couple of factors
1) do you have to burn fossil fuel to produce ethanol? why not run the
facilities on ethanol?
2) what is the total return of energy produced vs consumed, of ethanol
vs gasoline?
3) what is the total pollution difference when you compare the two BTU
for BTU?

I did not find consistent numbers, for instance Wikipedia says Ethanol
produces 27% less energy than gasoline, which would be 0.73 the amount
of energy from gasoline, but a USA Today article says one gallon of
E-85 has an energy content of 80,000 Btu - compared with about
118,000 Btu for a gallon of gas, which would be 0.67 BTUs per gallon of
gas.

Please no flames, just numbers or a balanced mix of web links to
reputable / high profile studies ie a couple by academia (plus any info
on who funds their research), a couple from the oil industry or their
friends, a couple from green friendly studies.

Thanks

Ads
  #2  
Old September 7th 06, 01:29 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
Shep
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 146
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?

Google e85, tons of comprehensive info out there ."Mad Scientist Jr"
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Looking for some definitive (or at least of somewhat mainstream
> credibility) numbers on E85 vs gasoline:
>
> For production/hauling/storage/etc, end to end:
> BTUs consumed to yield X BTUs from ethanol
> vs
> BTUs consumed to yield X BTUs from gasoline
>
> and
>
> Simply burning the stuff:
> Pollutants produced per 100,000 BTU worth of E85 burned
> vs
> Pollutants produced per 100,000 BTU worth of Gasoline burned
>
> Also what car models (SUVs too) will run on E85?
>
> People talk about ethanol not being worth using because of the fossil
> fuel needed to produce it. They are leaving out a couple of factors
> 1) do you have to burn fossil fuel to produce ethanol? why not run the
> facilities on ethanol?
> 2) what is the total return of energy produced vs consumed, of ethanol
> vs gasoline?
> 3) what is the total pollution difference when you compare the two BTU
> for BTU?
>
> I did not find consistent numbers, for instance Wikipedia says Ethanol
> produces 27% less energy than gasoline, which would be 0.73 the amount
> of energy from gasoline, but a USA Today article says one gallon of
> E-85 has an energy content of 80,000 Btu - compared with about
> 118,000 Btu for a gallon of gas, which would be 0.67 BTUs per gallon of
> gas.
>
> Please no flames, just numbers or a balanced mix of web links to
> reputable / high profile studies ie a couple by academia (plus any info
> on who funds their research), a couple from the oil industry or their
> friends, a couple from green friendly studies.
>
> Thanks
>




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  #3  
Old September 7th 06, 02:38 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
Joe Fischer[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?

On 6 Sep 2006 17:20:14 -0700, "Mad Scientist Jr"
> wrote:

>Looking for some definitive (or at least of somewhat mainstream
>credibility) numbers on E85 vs gasoline:
>
>For production/hauling/storage/etc, end to end:
>BTUs consumed to yield X BTUs from ethanol
>vs
>BTUs consumed to yield X BTUs from gasoline



It isn't that simple, there can be more power
from ethanol than from gasoline, only the engine
needs to be timed different and other changes made.

Almost all race cars will be using ethanol within
a year or so, and that would not happen if it didn't
have the power.
The only reason the gasoline is mixed to make
E85 is to keep people from drinking ethanol solutions
without paying the tax.
But it may also improve starting in cold climate.

Flex-fuel vehicles have fuel injection which is
able to sense oxygen levels in the exhaust and change
the timing and furl-air ratio automatically.

>and
>
>Simply burning the stuff:
>Pollutants produced per 100,000 BTU worth of E85 burned
>vs
>Pollutants produced per 100,000 BTU worth of Gasoline burned


Big difference, gasoline loses, by a big margin.

>Also what car models (SUVs too) will run on E85?


Look inside the gas fill door or look at the eighth
character in the VIN.

>People talk about ethanol not being worth using because of the fossil
>fuel needed to produce it. They are leaving out a couple of factors
>1) do you have to burn fossil fuel to produce ethanol? why not run the
>facilities on ethanol?
>2) what is the total return of energy produced vs consumed, of ethanol
>vs gasoline?
>3) what is the total pollution difference when you compare the two BTU
>for BTU?


Already asked.

>I did not find consistent numbers, for instance Wikipedia says Ethanol
>produces 27% less energy than gasoline, which would be 0.73 the amount
>of energy from gasoline, but a USA Today article says one gallon of
>E-85 has an energy content of 80,000 Btu - compared with about
>118,000 Btu for a gallon of gas, which would be 0.67 BTUs per gallon of
>gas.


Probably because E85 is not ethanol, it is 85 percent,
and the flex-fuel system has to compromise to run the
mixture.

>Please no flames, just numbers or a balanced mix of web links to
>reputable / high profile studies ie a couple by academia (plus any info
>on who funds their research), a couple from the oil industry or their
>friends, a couple from green friendly studies.
>Thanks


Google will give too many links, as usual, too bad
they can use the same search engine ebay uses.

Joe Fischer

  #4  
Old September 7th 06, 03:06 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
SJC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?

If you have not tried
www.ethanol.org
I would make that my first stop.

"Mad Scientist Jr" > wrote in message oups.com...
> Looking for some definitive (or at least of somewhat mainstream
> credibility) numbers on E85 vs gasoline:
>
> For production/hauling/storage/etc, end to end:
> BTUs consumed to yield X BTUs from ethanol
> vs
> BTUs consumed to yield X BTUs from gasoline
>
> and
>
> Simply burning the stuff:
> Pollutants produced per 100,000 BTU worth of E85 burned
> vs
> Pollutants produced per 100,000 BTU worth of Gasoline burned
>
> Also what car models (SUVs too) will run on E85?
>
> People talk about ethanol not being worth using because of the fossil
> fuel needed to produce it. They are leaving out a couple of factors
> 1) do you have to burn fossil fuel to produce ethanol? why not run the
> facilities on ethanol?
> 2) what is the total return of energy produced vs consumed, of ethanol
> vs gasoline?
> 3) what is the total pollution difference when you compare the two BTU
> for BTU?
>
> I did not find consistent numbers, for instance Wikipedia says Ethanol
> produces 27% less energy than gasoline, which would be 0.73 the amount
> of energy from gasoline, but a USA Today article says one gallon of
> E-85 has an energy content of 80,000 Btu - compared with about
> 118,000 Btu for a gallon of gas, which would be 0.67 BTUs per gallon of
> gas.
>
> Please no flames, just numbers or a balanced mix of web links to
> reputable / high profile studies ie a couple by academia (plus any info
> on who funds their research), a couple from the oil industry or their
> friends, a couple from green friendly studies.
>
> Thanks
>



  #5  
Old September 7th 06, 03:14 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
danny burstein
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?

In .com> "Mad Scientist Jr" > writes:

>I did not find consistent numbers, for instance Wikipedia says Ethanol
>produces 27% less energy than gasoline, which would be 0.73 the amount
>of energy from gasoline, but a USA Today article says one gallon of
>E-85 has an energy content of 80,000 Btu - compared with about
>118,000 Btu for a gallon of gas, which would be 0.67 BTUs per gallon of
>gas.


Just addressing this one point, using figures
from Our Very Own Federal Gov't:

Linkname: EPA - OTAQ - Fuel Economy Impact Analysis of RFG
URL: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfgecon.htm

regular gasoline: 108,500 -> 117,000 BTU/gallon
depending on winter vs. summer blends
and other factors.

ethanol: 76,100 BTU/gallon.

If we take the midrange of gasoline there we'll get 112,750.

So.. pure ethanol vs gasoline: 76,100 : 112,750 = 67.5 percent

I'll let you work out the E-10 and E-85 mixes...

NOTE that some folk claim engines designed for
the inherent higher octane in ethanol can use higher
compression, and thus eke out a bit more efficiency,
(and, to a lesser extent, "regular" engines might
be able to do so as well), but... there ain't no
way that'll compensate for a 1/3rd reduction in BTUs


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
  #6  
Old September 7th 06, 04:05 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
Joe Fischer[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 02:14:38 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
> wrote:

>NOTE that some folk claim engines designed for
>the inherent higher octane in ethanol can use higher
>compression, and thus eke out a bit more efficiency,
>(and, to a lesser extent, "regular" engines might
>be able to do so as well), but... there ain't no
>way that'll compensate for a 1/3rd reduction in BTUs


Ha ha, so the reason methanol has been used for
the Indy 500 and they are switching to ethanol is because
they are dummys? :-)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12740848/

Joe Fischer

  #7  
Old September 7th 06, 04:29 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
Bob[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?


"Joe Fischer" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 02:14:38 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
> > wrote:
>
>>NOTE that some folk claim engines designed for
>>the inherent higher octane in ethanol can use higher
>>compression, and thus eke out a bit more efficiency,
>>(and, to a lesser extent, "regular" engines might
>>be able to do so as well), but... there ain't no
>>way that'll compensate for a 1/3rd reduction in BTUs

>
> Ha ha, so the reason methanol has been used for
> the Indy 500 and they are switching to ethanol is because
> they are dummys? :-)


They aren't but you sure as hell are. This is the second idiotic post you've
made on the subject of E85.


  #8  
Old September 7th 06, 04:47 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
Joe Fischer[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?

On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 22:29:04 -0500, "Bob" > wrote:

>"Joe Fischer" > wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 02:14:38 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
>> > wrote:
>>>NOTE that some folk claim engines designed for
>>>the inherent higher octane in ethanol can use higher
>>>compression, and thus eke out a bit more efficiency,
>>>(and, to a lesser extent, "regular" engines might
>>>be able to do so as well), but... there ain't no
>>>way that'll compensate for a 1/3rd reduction in BTUs

>>
>> Ha ha, so the reason methanol has been used for
>> the Indy 500 and they are switching to ethanol is because
>> they are dummys? :-)

>
>They aren't but you sure as hell are. This is the second idiotic post you've
>made on the subject of E85.


Too bad the ethanol car was in an accident.

Joe Fischer

  #9  
Old September 7th 06, 04:51 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,092
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?

In article >,
Joe Fischer > wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 02:14:38 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
> > wrote:
>
> >NOTE that some folk claim engines designed for
> >the inherent higher octane in ethanol can use higher
> >compression, and thus eke out a bit more efficiency,
> >(and, to a lesser extent, "regular" engines might
> >be able to do so as well), but... there ain't no
> >way that'll compensate for a 1/3rd reduction in BTUs

>
> Ha ha, so the reason methanol has been used for
> the Indy 500 and they are switching to ethanol is because
> they are dummys? :-)
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12740848/
>
> Joe Fischer


Did you even read the article?
  #10  
Old September 7th 06, 04:59 AM posted to alt.energy.renewable,alt.energy.automobile,rec.autos.tech,sci.environment,sci.chem
Joe Fischer[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default E85 vs Gasoline - credible numbers?

On Thu, aarcuda69062 > wrote:

>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12740848/
>> Joe Fischer

>
>Did you even read the article?


Why? Doesn't this paragraph say enough?

"Slunecka says he does not expect any problems when Indy switches to
pure ethanol in 2007. In fact, because ethanol generates more power than
methanol, cars in the race will see their fuel efficiency rise by as
much as 30 percent next year when they switch, he said."
[unquote]

Joe Fischer

 




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