2008 Kia Optima - Steering Wheel Vibration at speeds over 50mph since

ChrisCoaster wrote:
> ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. Tire
> was replaced, but car has been diagonosed with a mildly bent spindle
> at that corner. About 6 months ago had 4wheel alignment which
> smoothed things out a bit except for this vibration.
>
> I recently had my tires rotated and balanced for a long trip I made
> the past weekend, but vibration remains. Basically steering wheel
> turns side to side very quickly but when both hands are on the wheel
> it is less noticeable. Is this vib related to the bend spindle, and
> how much trouble - potentially - could I be in?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -ChrisCoaster

I wonder how a bent spindle would cause steering wheel
side to side movement? If it is bent, it is bent in
one direction only and does not flop back and forth.
My guess is a bent wheel or bent hub flange.

On Oct 11, 8:36*pm, Paul in Houston TX > wrote:
> ChrisCoaster wrote:
> > ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. *Tire
> > was replaced, but car has been diagonosed with a mildly bent spindle
> > at that corner. *About 6 months ago had 4wheel alignment which
> > smoothed things out a bit except for this vibration.
>
> > I recently had my tires rotated and balanced for a long trip I made
> > the past weekend, but vibration remains. *Basically steering wheel
> > turns side to side very quickly but when both hands are on the wheel
> > it is less noticeable. *Is this vib related to the bend spindle, and
> > how much trouble - potentially - could I be in?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > -ChrisCoaster
>
> I wonder how a bent spindle would cause steering wheel
> side to side movement? *If it is bent, it is bent in
> one direction only and does not flop back and forth.
> My guess is a bent wheel or bent hub flange.
___________________
See beam's first reply to my o.p. I guess that explains it. I, like
you, assumed an automotive "spindle" was stationary - like the one on
a record turntable or your finger with a roll of Scotch tape spinning
around it.

Apparantly on some vehicles that is not the case.

-CC

ChrisCoaster wrote:
> On Oct 11, 8:36 pm, Paul in Houston TX > wrote:
>> ChrisCoaster wrote:
>>> ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. Tire
>>> was replaced, but car has been diagonosed with a mildly bent spindle
>>> at that corner. About 6 months ago had 4wheel alignment which
>>> smoothed things out a bit except for this vibration.
>>> I recently had my tires rotated and balanced for a long trip I made
>>> the past weekend, but vibration remains. Basically steering wheel
>>> turns side to side very quickly but when both hands are on the wheel
>>> it is less noticeable. Is this vib related to the bend spindle, and
>>> how much trouble - potentially - could I be in?
>>> Thanks,
>>> -ChrisCoaster
>> I wonder how a bent spindle would cause steering wheel
>> side to side movement? If it is bent, it is bent in
>> one direction only and does not flop back and forth.
>> My guess is a bent wheel or bent hub flange.
> ___________________
> See beam's first reply to my o.p. I guess that explains it. I, like
> you, assumed an automotive "spindle" was stationary - like the one on
> a record turntable or your finger with a roll of Scotch tape spinning
> around it.
>
> Apparantly on some vehicles that is not the case.
>
> -CC

I think it may be terminology.
I just looked at your front hub assembly on kiatechinfo and it
is almost identical to my 06 Spectra.
Its possible that what everyone here calls a spindle is
actually the hub (and hub flange). There is no spindle.
Either way, the metal will warm up and stress fracture.
Better check the wheel, too, if its the same one.
Check the run out. Swap front to back and check both
tires again.

On Oct 11, 9:57*pm, Paul in Houston TX > wrote:
> ChrisCoaster wrote:
> > On Oct 11, 8:36 pm, Paul in Houston TX > wrote:
> >> ChrisCoaster wrote:
> >>> ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. *Tire
> >>> was replaced, but car has been diagonosed with a mildly bent spindle
> >>> at that corner. *About 6 months ago had 4wheel alignment which
> >>> smoothed things out a bit except for this vibration.
> >>> I recently had my tires rotated and balanced for a long trip I made
> >>> the past weekend, but vibration remains. *Basically steering wheel
> >>> turns side to side very quickly but when both hands are on the wheel
> >>> it is less noticeable. *Is this vib related to the bend spindle, and
> >>> how much trouble - potentially - could I be in?
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> -ChrisCoaster
> >> I wonder how a bent spindle would cause steering wheel
> >> side to side movement? *If it is bent, it is bent in
> >> one direction only and does not flop back and forth.
> >> My guess is a bent wheel or bent hub flange.
> > ___________________
> > See beam's first reply to my o.p. *I guess that explains it. *I, like
> > you, assumed an automotive "spindle" was stationary - like the one on
> > a record turntable or your finger with a roll of Scotch tape spinning
> > around it.
>
> > Apparantly on some vehicles that is not the case.
>
> > -CC
>
> I think it may be terminology.
> I just looked at your front hub assembly on kiatechinfo and it
> is almost identical to my 06 Spectra.
> Its possible that what everyone here calls a spindle is
> actually the hub (and hub flange). *There is no spindle.
> Either way, the metal will warm up and stress fracture.
> Better check the wheel, too, if its the same one.
> Check the run out. *Swap front to back and check both
> tires again.
______________
I did mention both the rim replacement when it happened and my most
recent rotation/balancing. I should be getting a quote soon.

CC

On Oct 11, 8:22*am, ChrisCoaster > wrote:
> ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. *Tire

A slightly bent spindle? How does one diagnose and prove that? Sounds
to me like the shop couldnt get it right and so blamed it on something
expensive to assuage customer doubts and expectations.

I would still check the cheap stuff first: inner tie rod ends and
tires for tread separations.
Most of the cars I see with a 'shimmy' like that end up being caused
by one or both of those.
HTH,
Ben

ben91932 wrote:
> On Oct 11, 8:22 am, ChrisCoaster > wrote:
>> ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. Tire
>
> A slightly bent spindle? How does one diagnose and prove that? Sounds
> to me like the shop couldnt get it right and so blamed it on something
> expensive to assuage customer doubts and expectations.

Real easy actually. Pull the front apart and check the runout on the flange.


> I would still check the cheap stuff first: inner tie rod ends and
> tires for tread separations.
> Most of the cars I see with a 'shimmy' like that end up being caused
> by one or both of those.
> HTH,
> Ben

Worn tie rods don't usually show up as shimmy. That is because the
caster angle loads them enough that they only show as tire wear or
wander while steering. Plus if they are worn they don't transmit as much
back to the wheel (because the wear makes the ball float instead of
connect solid).

Tread plies could make this happen , BUT Chris has already had tires
rotated,/replaced and rims checked as well. If it was a bad tire the
symptoms would have changed to follow it.

I'm betting that the curb hit was an off camber hit and it was enough to
tweak the spindle inside the hub assy. enough that it is causing problems.
If it was mine and I wanted to keep it I would replace the axle and hub
as well as the entire steering knuckle assy. I would also check the ball
joints REAL close as well as strut/shock mounts for that corner.

--
Steve W.

On Oct 11, 11:22*am, ChrisCoaster > wrote:
> ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. *Tire
> was replaced, but car has been diagonosed with a mildly bent spindle
> at that corner. *About 6 months ago had 4wheel alignment which
> smoothed things out a bit except for this vibration.
>
> I recently had my tires rotated and balanced for a long trip I made
> the past weekend, but vibration remains. *Basically steering wheel
> turns side to side very quickly but when both hands are on the wheel
> it is less noticeable. *Is this vib related to the bend spindle, and
> how much trouble - potentially - could I be in?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -ChrisCoaster
_______________________________
**UPDATE**

Last week had Tie Rod End, Knuckle(spindle) and Bearing replaced on
the front left in my original post. Total cost around $1,000.

Secondly, the shop that did the alignment part(the alignment shop is
separate from the body shop and is same one I always use) attempted to
correct an excessively negative rear right wheel Camber. This was
diagnosed on my alignment from last December, 2010 and had nothing to
do with my curb impact from earlier 2010. It was at the maximum
negativity acc to spec at that time.

Last week, they put a shim in *supposedly* to correct this negative
camber in the rear right, and now it is 1/2 MORE negative than
before! Did the tech just put the shim on the wrong way?

Over all it is not affecting my ride much, but at least with the front
end parts replaced and the toe fine-tuned the steering wheel is no
longer crooked positively(to the right) and the car no longer pulls to
the left. It now pulls to the right normally - as it would on a
crowned street. It does not roll as much as it did before the
alignment(I attribute that to the new bearing and other parts replaced
on the front left) but I suspect that will work in after a week or so
of driving it normally. The steering wheel straightens out STRAIGHT
from a turn now and the car gradually drifts to the right without
driver input. Just like my old 1981 Buick! Finally!!

-CC

On 11/01/2011 09:46 AM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
> On Oct 11, 11:22�am, > wrote:
>> ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. �Tire
>> was replaced, but car has been diagonosed with a mildly bent spindle
>> at that corner. �About 6 months ago had 4wheel alignment which
>> smoothed things out a bit except for this vibration.
>>
>> I recently had my tires rotated and balanced for a long trip I made
>> the past weekend, but vibration remains. �Basically steering wheel
>> turns side to side very quickly but when both hands are on the wheel
>> it is less noticeable. �Is this vib related to the bend spindle, and
>> how much trouble - potentially - could I be in?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -ChrisCoaster
> _______________________________
> **UPDATE**
>
> Last week had Tie Rod End, Knuckle(spindle) and Bearing replaced on
> the front left in my original post. Total cost around $1,000.
>
> Secondly, the shop that did the alignment part(the alignment shop is
> separate from the body shop and is same one I always use) attempted to
> correct an excessively negative rear right wheel Camber. This was
> diagnosed on my alignment from last December, 2010 and had nothing to
> do with my curb impact from earlier 2010. It was at the maximum
> negativity acc to spec at that time.
>
> Last week, they put a shim in *supposedly* to correct this negative
> camber in the rear right, and now it is 1/2 MORE negative than
> before! Did the tech just put the shim on the wrong way?
>
> Over all it is not affecting my ride much, but at least with the front
> end parts replaced and the toe fine-tuned the steering wheel is no
> longer crooked positively(to the right) and the car no longer pulls to
> the left. It now pulls to the right normally - as it would on a
> crowned street. It does not roll as much as it did before the
> alignment(I attribute that to the new bearing and other parts replaced
> on the front left) but I suspect that will work in after a week or so
> of driving it normally. The steering wheel straightens out STRAIGHT
> from a turn now and the car gradually drifts to the right without
> driver input. Just like my old 1981 Buick! Finally!!
>
> -CC

ok, a few things.

1. a buick is not a good frame of reference. seriously.

2. the steering wheel being straight doesn't mean a thing, it just means
it was centered on the "forwards" direction. you could be crabbing down
the woad with a rear wheel 6" outside of the front, and have the wheel
straight if the frame is bent.

3. as mentioned last time, it's rare to bend suspension components
without also bending the frame to which they're attached. shimming
isn't the way to fix a bent frame. you need to take it back and get the
frame alignment numbers, then compare them with the shop manual or
alldata. if, as i suspect, the frame's still out, you need to take it
back and get them to tweak it.

4. the car should not track to the right, to the left, or to your
grandmother's apple pies. it should drive straight unless the crown
camber is substantial. and even then, one of the "attributes" of
macpherson suspension is that it is /much/ less sensitive to road camber
than wishbone. it really shouldn't be doing this.

take it on to something known flat like a bridge. [most bridge decks
have no camber] and see if it still pulls. if it does, you still have
an alignment issue. frame alignment is the #1 suspect.

re frame straightening, it's hard to find people that really know their
business. most shops are geared towards insurance work and getting the
thing out the door as cheaply as possible. try to find a shop that does
frame straightening for the local auto sports crowd - they always bend
their toys on the weekends - much more likely to know what they're doing
and to get it right.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Nov 1, 1:31*pm, jim beam > wrote:
> On 11/01/2011 09:46 AM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 11:22 am, > *wrote:
> >> ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. Tire
> >> was replaced, but car has been diagonosed with a mildly bent spindle
> >> at that corner. About 6 months ago had 4wheel alignment which
> >> smoothed things out a bit except for this vibration.
>
> >> I recently had my tires rotated and balanced for a long trip I made
> >> the past weekend, but vibration remains. Basically steering wheel
> >> turns side to side very quickly but when both hands are on the wheel
> >> it is less noticeable. Is this vib related to the bend spindle, and
> >> how much trouble - potentially - could I be in?
>
> >> Thanks,
>
> >> -ChrisCoaster
> > _______________________________
> > **UPDATE**
>
> > Last week had Tie Rod End, Knuckle(spindle) and Bearing replaced on
> > the front left in my original post. *Total cost around $1,000.
>
> > Secondly, the shop that did the alignment part(the alignment shop is
> > separate from the body shop and is same one I always use) attempted to
> > correct an excessively negative rear right wheel Camber. *This was
> > diagnosed on my alignment from last December, 2010 and had nothing to
> > do with my curb impact from earlier 2010. *It was at the maximum
> > negativity acc to spec at that time.
>
> > Last week, they put a shim in *supposedly* to correct this negative
> > camber in the rear right, and now it is 1/2 MORE negative than
> > before! *Did the tech just put the shim on the wrong way?
>
> > Over all it is not affecting my ride much, but at least with the front
> > end parts replaced and the toe fine-tuned the steering wheel is no
> > longer crooked positively(to the right) and the car no longer pulls to
> > the left. *It now pulls to the right normally - as it would on a
> > crowned street. *It does not roll as much as it did before the
> > alignment(I attribute that to the new bearing and other parts replaced
> > on the front left) but I suspect that will work in after a week or so
> > of driving it normally. *The steering wheel straightens out STRAIGHT
> > from a turn now and the car gradually drifts to the right without
> > driver input. *Just like my old 1981 Buick! Finally!!
>
> > -CC
>
> ok, a few things.
>
> 1. a buick is not a good frame of reference. *seriously.
>
> 2. the steering wheel being straight doesn't mean a thing, it just means
> it was centered on the "forwards" direction. *you could be crabbing down
> the woad with a rear wheel 6" outside of the front, and have the wheel
> straight if the frame is bent.
>
> 3. as mentioned last time, it's rare to bend suspension components
> without also bending the frame to which they're attached. *shimming
> isn't the way to fix a bent frame. *you need to take it back and get the
> frame alignment numbers, then compare them with the shop manual or
> alldata. *if, as i suspect, the frame's still out, you need to take it
> back and get them to tweak it.
>
> 4. the car should not track to the right, to the left, or to your
> grandmother's apple pies. *it should drive straight unless the crown
> camber is substantial. *and even then, one of the "attributes" of
> macpherson suspension is that it is /much/ less sensitive to road camber
> than wishbone. *it really shouldn't be doing this.
>
> take it on to something known flat like a bridge. *[most bridge decks
> have no camber] and see if it still pulls. *if it does, you still have
> an alignment issue. *frame alignment is the #1 suspect.
>
> re frame straightening, it's hard to find people that really know their
> business. *most shops are geared towards insurance work and getting the
> thing out the door as cheaply as possible. *try to find a shop that does
> frame straightening for the local auto sports crowd - they always bend
> their toys on the weekends - much more likely to know what they're doing
> and to get it right.
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
_______________________

Thanks for the kind input, I'm sure. As I just said, it drives the
way I'm used to a car driving. I don't need a car that *compensates*
for road crown. I just happen to be very sensitive to this and do not
like meeting opposing traffic head on in a relatively new car(my
previous Malibu, Impala, and Ford Contour all did this when new). I
know why the veh mfgs are doing this, and it's WRONG. Now I damaged
my Kia's front end by hitting a curb at 30mph and now it's been fixed
to drive as I remember it driving.

Road crown varies WIDELY by locale. Go to any Jersey shore town - I'm
sure you'll see a very pronounced crown to the roads to alleviate
flooding on streets less than 1/2 mile from the waters edge and less
than 10ft AMSL(you can look that one up!). Compare that to a road
inland in New hampshire or CT, and you'd have to kneel down on the
curb with your head touching the sidewalk before you could distinguish
the camber there. And then there's the bridge deck you mentioned. How
the HECK can a mfg accommodate all those different conditions? How do
they know WHERE the car they produce in Detroit(or Tokyo or Georgia)
will be purchased and driven????

An auto mfg attempting to compensate for camber is just frustrating
the matter. Design in EQUAL camber and caster left-to-right give or
take a quarter degree tolerance and be done with it!

As far as the frame issues you brought up - I understand all those
concepts. You must understand that if that much damage was done to the
frame of this Kia one of two things would have happened already: #1.
They would have mentioned it to me after taking measurements on the
rack. ~or~ #2. I'd probably be DEAD by now and not typing this!
Because the kind of impact required to knock my frame out as much as
you are suggesting would have probably required a life-consuming high-
speed multi-vehicle ACCIDENT.

Juss' sayin...

On 11/01/2011 10:58 AM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
> On Nov 1, 1:31�pm, jim > wrote:
>> On 11/01/2011 09:46 AM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 11, 11:22 am, > �wrote:
>>>> ..I drove over a curb/island a year ago with my Front Left Tire. Tire
>>>> was replaced, but car has been diagonosed with a mildly bent spindle
>>>> at that corner. About 6 months ago had 4wheel alignment which
>>>> smoothed things out a bit except for this vibration.
>>
>>>> I recently had my tires rotated and balanced for a long trip I made
>>>> the past weekend, but vibration remains. Basically steering wheel
>>>> turns side to side very quickly but when both hands are on the wheel
>>>> it is less noticeable. Is this vib related to the bend spindle, and
>>>> how much trouble - potentially - could I be in?
>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>
>>>> -ChrisCoaster
>>> _______________________________
>>> **UPDATE**
>>
>>> Last week had Tie Rod End, Knuckle(spindle) and Bearing replaced on
>>> the front left in my original post. �Total cost around $1,000.
>>
>>> Secondly, the shop that did the alignment part(the alignment shop is
>>> separate from the body shop and is same one I always use) attempted to
>>> correct an excessively negative rear right wheel Camber. �This was
>>> diagnosed on my alignment from last December, 2010 and had nothing to
>>> do with my curb impact from earlier 2010. �It was at the maximum
>>> negativity acc to spec at that time.
>>
>>> Last week, they put a shim in *supposedly* to correct this negative
>>> camber in the rear right, and now it is 1/2 MORE negative than
>>> before! �Did the tech just put the shim on the wrong way?
>>
>>> Over all it is not affecting my ride much, but at least with the front
>>> end parts replaced and the toe fine-tuned the steering wheel is no
>>> longer crooked positively(to the right) and the car no longer pulls to
>>> the left. �It now pulls to the right normally - as it would on a
>>> crowned street. �It does not roll as much as it did before the
>>> alignment(I attribute that to the new bearing and other parts replaced
>>> on the front left) but I suspect that will work in after a week or so
>>> of driving it normally. �The steering wheel straightens out STRAIGHT
>>> from a turn now and the car gradually drifts to the right without
>>> driver input. �Just like my old 1981 Buick! Finally!!
>>
>>> -CC
>>
>> ok, a few things.
>>
>> 1. a buick is not a good frame of reference. �seriously.
>>
>> 2. the steering wheel being straight doesn't mean a thing, it just means
>> it was centered on the "forwards" direction. �you could be crabbing down
>> the woad with a rear wheel 6" outside of the front, and have the wheel
>> straight if the frame is bent.
>>
>> 3. as mentioned last time, it's rare to bend suspension components
>> without also bending the frame to which they're attached. �shimming
>> isn't the way to fix a bent frame. �you need to take it back and get the
>> frame alignment numbers, then compare them with the shop manual or
>> alldata. �if, as i suspect, the frame's still out, you need to take it
>> back and get them to tweak it.
>>
>> 4. the car should not track to the right, to the left, or to your
>> grandmother's apple pies. �it should drive straight unless the crown
>> camber is substantial. �and even then, one of the "attributes" of
>> macpherson suspension is that it is /much/ less sensitive to road camber
>> than wishbone. �it really shouldn't be doing this.
>>
>> take it on to something known flat like a bridge. �[most bridge decks
>> have no camber] and see if it still pulls. �if it does, you still have
>> an alignment issue. �frame alignment is the #1 suspect.
>>
>> re frame straightening, it's hard to find people that really know their
>> business. �most shops are geared towards insurance work and getting the
>> thing out the door as cheaply as possible. �try to find a shop that does
>> frame straightening for the local auto sports crowd - they always bend
>> their toys on the weekends - much more likely to know what they're doing
>> and to get it right.
>>
>> --
>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> _______________________
>
> Thanks for the kind input, I'm sure. As I just said, it drives the
> way I'm used to a car driving. I don't need a car that *compensates*
> for road crown. I just happen to be very sensitive to this and do not
> like meeting opposing traffic head on in a relatively new car(my
> previous Malibu, Impala, and Ford Contour all did this when new). I
> know why the veh mfgs are doing this, and it's WRONG. Now I damaged
> my Kia's front end by hitting a curb at 30mph and now it's been fixed
> to drive as I remember it driving.
>
> Road crown varies WIDELY by locale. Go to any Jersey shore town - I'm
> sure you'll see a very pronounced crown to the roads to alleviate
> flooding on streets less than 1/2 mile from the waters edge and less
> than 10ft AMSL(you can look that one up!). Compare that to a road
> inland in New hampshire or CT, and you'd have to kneel down on the
> curb with your head touching the sidewalk before you could distinguish
> the camber there. And then there's the bridge deck you mentioned. How
> the HECK can a mfg accommodate all those different conditions? How do
> they know WHERE the car they produce in Detroit(or Tokyo or Georgia)
> will be purchased and driven????
>
> An auto mfg attempting to compensate for camber is just frustrating
> the matter. Design in EQUAL camber and caster left-to-right give or
> take a quarter degree tolerance and be done with it!

they don't attempt to compensate for it. as long as you don't call
using macpherson suspension compensation anyway.

if you have roads with a large camber, you will get some drift, even
with macpherson. if the car is properly aligned anyway. what i asked
was whether you get it when you're driving on a road without camber. if
you are, there is an alignment issue. if not, then what you're
experiencing on the crowned roads is normal.


>
> As far as the frame issues you brought up - I understand all those
> concepts. You must understand that if that much damage was done to the
> frame of this Kia one of two things would have happened already: #1.
> They would have mentioned it to me after taking measurements on the
> rack.

depends who was paying for it. if it's the insurance company and they
want to keep costs down, having the frame just a little out is
"acceptable", particularly if the shop's saying they can correct the
alignment issue with a shim.


> ~or~ #2. I'd probably be DEAD by now and not typing this!
> Because the kind of impact required to knock my frame out as much as
> you are suggesting

i'm suggesting a small bend, not cabin crush.


> would have probably required a life-consuming high-
> speed multi-vehicle ACCIDENT.

far from it. "crumple zones" are good for two things:

1. deforming to save energy in an impact and thus reducing passenger injury.

2. ensuring the frame bends at lower impact speeds thus ensuring new car
sales. seriously, this is a real design consideration.

it really doesn't take much to get a small frame bend. impact
sufficient to bend suspension components is easily there.


>
> Juss' sayin...


--
nomina rutrum rutrum