Why not methanol

Robert Briggs wrote:

> Don Stauffer in Minneapolis wrote:
>
>
>>How high must oil get to before this country gets serious about
>>alternate energy?
>
>
> Quit whingeing.
>
> IIRC, CBS News last night rebroadcast in the UK mentioned "gas" prices
> of a tad over two dollars per gallon. We pay the thick end of four
> pounds sterling per gallon.
>
> Allowing for the currency exchange rate and your under-sized gallon, I
> reckon our fuel costs close to three times as much as yours.

I am not upset by the current price, really. It is just that no one
seems to believe that the supply is finite, and will run out some day.
I heard a chilling report on news the other night, that even if Saudi
Arabia WANTED to increase production, they are already maxed out. If
the demand truly begins to exceed max supply, we are really in trouble.
I am afraid some day they will say, "sorry, folks, it is all gone.
You have to walk, now"

People have known how to make gasoline, Diesel fuel, etc. out of coal
for over a century, but the infrastructure not in place to do it. It
may be more expensive, but I believe you can probably make it out of any
source of cellulose. But we can't do it over night. It seems like
society expects that when the last barrel of oil is gone, they can wake
up next morning and buy synthetic.

I want to see more work on building a synthetic infrastructure.

Remember the fuel air ratio of alcohol is much different than gasoline.
Even if the computer on an EFI car could make the needed adjustments you
would needed bigger injectors maybe larger fuel pump and lines.
Stan

Don Stauffer in Minneapolis wrote:
>
> Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>
> > Don Stauffer in Minneapolis > wrote in
> > :
> >
> >
> >>Our governor is trying to pass a bill requiring all gas sold in
> >>Minnesota in a few years contain 20% ethanol. Now, that is going to
> >>require redesign of engines anyway. So why not use methanol instead of
> >>ethanol?
> >>
> >>The big push here is 'cause we grow corn. But methanol can be made
> >
> > from
> >
> >>much cheaper feed stock than ethanol.
> >>
> >>I am aware that the production of both ethanol and methanol currently
> >>use natural gas or petroleum. But they do not HAVE to. They require a
> >>lot of heat energy. But that heat energy can come from the biofuels
> >>themselves, rather than fossil fuels.
> >>
> >>How high must oil get to before this country gets serious about
> >>alternate energy?
> >>
> >
> >
> > It is simple really, the ethanol is much more enviroment friendly. It
> > is not personally hazzardos like methanol is and a spill is just washed
> > away, it is not corrosive to the internal vechicle parts like methanol is
> > also. KB
> >
> Then why does everyone say we can't use ethanol higher than 10 or 15% in
> our cars? I thought it was because ethanol was corrosive to internal parts.
>
> Yeah, now that you mention it methanol is hard on paint- the tail of my
> race car verifies this. However, for my methanol powered model
> airplanes, we have fuel-proof paints. So I am assuming they could use
> such paints on cars. Good point about the hazard to people, though. My
> dad got really sick one time trying to siphon gas from a car and
> swallowed a mouthful, but he certainly did survive. If it had been
> methanol, he probably wouldn't have. Good thing he was siphoning it
> from his passenger car, not his race car, 'cause even way back then race
> cars were using methanol.

For this to work alcohol has to cost about half of gasoline because you
need to use almost twice as much.
Stan

"TeGGer®" wrote:
>
> "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in
> n.umich.edu:
>
> >
> > Go look at Brazil. LOTS of alcohol-fuelled cars on the roads there, and
> > have been for years. Performance, convenience and durability are all
> > reported to be completely ordinary, and alcohol costs less per litre.
>
> Brazil has mandated ethanol in motor fuels, so motorists have no choice. It
> is similar to the current popularity of propane in the UK and diesel on the
> Continent: governmental muscle is the motivating factor.
>
> If alcohol "costs less" in Brazil, it is because of the political
> incentives and considerable indirect subsidies in its favor.
>
> In real terms, producing fuels from farmed plants is extremely expensive
> compared to petroleum fuels.
>
> >
> > There's no infrastructure for alternative fuels, so nobody buys them, so
> > nobody builds them, so there's no incentive to build infrastructure, so
> > there's no infrastructure, so nobody buys them, so nobody builds them,
> > so...
> >
> >
>
> If we want the governmental fist-in-your-face method of achieving the
> needed "infrastructure", then maybe we should do what Brazil has done.
>
> Petroleum fuels are the cheapest thing around, hands down. That's the main
> reason "alternative fuels" have not caught on except where the government
> has kneecapped consumers into choosing an "alternative".
>
> A couple of very interesting links for those who are very interested:
> http://www.aip.com.au/pricing/oecd.htm
> http://countrystudies.us/brazil/76.htm
>
> That second one is a doozy. Ol' Danny is not telling us the whole story
> here.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®

Don Stauffer in Minneapolis wrote:
>
> Joe S wrote:
> >
> > Gasoline is cheaper in the US than pretty much anywhere else other than
> > countries whose main/sole export is oil. Gasoline costs 2.5-3 times as
> > much in Europe and Japan that the US. Their response seems to have been
> > "even tinier cars". I do not believe there are significant crash test
> > requirements because there are tons of cars that are obviously just not
> > survivable in even a 30 mph crash...little more than a skin around the
> > driver/passengers.
> >
>
> Gee, I have a 600 pound race car. While I have never had a bad crash in
> it yet, I have two friends with same class of cars who really rolled
> theirs hard. One got a dislocated shoulder, the other a broken wrist.
> I don't believe the weight alone is as important in a crash as other things.


Your friends didn't get run into by a 9,000 lb SUV. They also
had real racing harnesses as opposed to air bags and generic
seatbelts.

JazzMan
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JazzMan wrote:
>
> Don Stauffer in Minneapolis wrote:
> >
> > Joe S wrote:
> > >
> > > Gasoline is cheaper in the US than pretty much anywhere else other than
> > > countries whose main/sole export is oil. Gasoline costs 2.5-3 times as
> > > much in Europe and Japan that the US. Their response seems to have been
> > > "even tinier cars". I do not believe there are significant crash test
> > > requirements because there are tons of cars that are obviously just not
> > > survivable in even a 30 mph crash...little more than a skin around the
> > > driver/passengers.
> > >
> >
> > Gee, I have a 600 pound race car. While I have never had a bad crash in
> > it yet, I have two friends with same class of cars who really rolled
> > theirs hard. One got a dislocated shoulder, the other a broken wrist.
> > I don't believe the weight alone is as important in a crash as other things.
>
> Your friends didn't get run into by a 9,000 lb SUV. They also
> had real racing harnesses as opposed to air bags and generic
> seatbelts.
>
> JazzMan
> --
> ************************************************** ********
> Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
> Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
> ************************************************** ********
> "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
> supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
> live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
> ************************************************** ********

Exactly which US SUV is 9,000#? Curb weight not GVWR. I believe most are
under 7,000#

Ex: Chev / GMC Suburban 3/4T 4x4 curb weight: 6,073#

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
>
> JazzMan wrote:
> >
> > Don Stauffer in Minneapolis wrote:
> > >
> > > Joe S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gasoline is cheaper in the US than pretty much anywhere else other than
> > > > countries whose main/sole export is oil. Gasoline costs 2.5-3 times as
> > > > much in Europe and Japan that the US. Their response seems to have been
> > > > "even tinier cars". I do not believe there are significant crash test
> > > > requirements because there are tons of cars that are obviously just not
> > > > survivable in even a 30 mph crash...little more than a skin around the
> > > > driver/passengers.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Gee, I have a 600 pound race car. While I have never had a bad crash in
> > > it yet, I have two friends with same class of cars who really rolled
> > > theirs hard. One got a dislocated shoulder, the other a broken wrist.
> > > I don't believe the weight alone is as important in a crash as other things.
> >
> > Your friends didn't get run into by a 9,000 lb SUV. They also
> > had real racing harnesses as opposed to air bags and generic
> > seatbelts.
> >
> > JazzMan
> > --
> > ************************************************** ********
> > Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
> > Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
> > ************************************************** ********
> > "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
> > supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
> > live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
> > ************************************************** ********
>
> Exactly which US SUV is 9,000#? Curb weight not GVWR. I believe most are
> under 7,000#
>
> Ex: Chev / GMC Suburban 3/4T 4x4 curb weight: 6,073#
>
> Pete C.

I exaggerated a bit. Curb weight on the Hummer H2 is 6,400 lbs,
but that's empty of passengers, driver, and cargo. It has a
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating over 8,500 lbs, which is why the
window sticker doesn't have to show the fuel economy and why
it has to have the additional running and marker lights.

And then there's the cxt:
http://www.internationaldelivers.com...family/cxt.asp

At 14,500 lbs if you're in a car, any kind of car, and get hit by one of
these being piloted by a cell-phone junkie you're going to die. The main
issue will be if there's enough left of your organs to make donation
worthwhile.

JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********

JazzMan wrote:
>
> Pete C. wrote:
> >
> > JazzMan wrote:
> > >
> > > Don Stauffer in Minneapolis wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Joe S wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Gasoline is cheaper in the US than pretty much anywhere else other than
> > > > > countries whose main/sole export is oil. Gasoline costs 2.5-3 times as
> > > > > much in Europe and Japan that the US. Their response seems to have been
> > > > > "even tinier cars". I do not believe there are significant crash test
> > > > > requirements because there are tons of cars that are obviously just not
> > > > > survivable in even a 30 mph crash...little more than a skin around the
> > > > > driver/passengers.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gee, I have a 600 pound race car. While I have never had a bad crash in
> > > > it yet, I have two friends with same class of cars who really rolled
> > > > theirs hard. One got a dislocated shoulder, the other a broken wrist.
> > > > I don't believe the weight alone is as important in a crash as other things.
> > >
> > > Your friends didn't get run into by a 9,000 lb SUV. They also
> > > had real racing harnesses as opposed to air bags and generic
> > > seatbelts.
> > >
> > > JazzMan
> > > --
> > > ************************************************** ********
> > > Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
> > > Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
> > > ************************************************** ********
> > > "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
> > > supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
> > > live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
> > > ************************************************** ********
> >
> > Exactly which US SUV is 9,000#? Curb weight not GVWR. I believe most are
> > under 7,000#
> >
> > Ex: Chev / GMC Suburban 3/4T 4x4 curb weight: 6,073#
> >
> > Pete C.
>
> I exaggerated a bit. Curb weight on the Hummer H2 is 6,400 lbs,
> but that's empty of passengers, driver, and cargo. It has a
> Gross Vehicle Weight Rating over 8,500 lbs, which is why the
> window sticker doesn't have to show the fuel economy and why
> it has to have the additional running and marker lights.
>
> And then there's the cxt:
> http://www.internationaldelivers.com...family/cxt.asp
>
> At 14,500 lbs if you're in a car, any kind of car, and get hit by one of
> these being piloted by a cell-phone junkie you're going to die. The main
> issue will be if there's enough left of your organs to make donation
> worthwhile.
>
> JazzMan
> --
> ************************************************** ********
> Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
> Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
> ************************************************** ********
> "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
> supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
> live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
> ************************************************** ********

Ok, so add a couple lard-ass PYV's (plastic yuppie vermin), five hell
spawn and some sports equipment and you might hit 7,500# on any of the
common SUVs. That International is the exception and I can't say I've
seen many of them. My pickup is something like 6,680# curb weight.

A bigger threat out there is the large numbers of RV's. Most of the RVs
are at least as heavy as that International. Certainly there are many
being driven by qualified drivers, but a lot are driven by 70 year olds
who never drove anything bigger than a Caddy before they bought the RV.
I suspect the statistics will undercount accidents caused by RVs since
they will often be unaware of the accident they just caused.

As for the cell phone thing, the problem really has little to do with
cell phones. The real problem is untrained and inattentive drivers. If
they aren't distracted by the cell phone, it's the coffee, sandwich,
kids, makeup, newspaper or even the radio.

I suspect if you were to do a study you'd find that truckers are on the
cell phone quite a bit these days and cause very few accidents.
Professionally trained drivers are aware of their surroundings whether
they are on the cell phone or eating a sandwich.

I use a cell phone while driving and I never let it distract me from
driving. If something on the road requires more attention I just drop
the phone in my lap. When I text message while driving, the phone is
held at arms length on top of the dashboard so my view is always
directed at the road ahead and I view the phone in my lower peripheral
vision.

I've frequently said that the test standards for a "regular" drivers
license should be about the same as for a commercial class B. Not
terribly difficult, but something more than "you drove around the block
from the DMA and back and didn't hit anything".

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
>

> I've frequently said that the test standards for a "regular" drivers
> license should be about the same as for a commercial class B. Not
> terribly difficult, but something more than "you drove around the block
> from the DMA and back and didn't hit anything".
>

I'd like to see more European standards applied, with
months of training and serious practice, and very difficult
tests, before getting a license. And, one small screwup and
the license is gone, they're serious about driving over there.

Around here, especially in my state, the main requirement
to qualify for a driver's license is the presence of DNA
and a pulse, and sometimes that there pulse thing is optional.

JazzMan

--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Pete C. wrote:


> I use a cell phone while driving and I never let it distract me from
> driving.

Right, of *course* you don't. Only stupid *other* people's reactions are
worsened by talking on a celphone...not yours.

> When I text message while driving, the phone is held at arms length on
> top of the dashboard so my view is always directed at the road ahead and
> I view the phone in my lower peripheral vision.

So you genuinely believe you can text message while driving and *not* have
it distract you, eh?

DS

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:13:53 -0500, Daniel J. Stern wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Pete C. wrote:
>
>
>> I use a cell phone while driving and I never let it distract me from
>> driving.
>
> Right, of *course* you don't. Only stupid *other* people's reactions are
> worsened by talking on a celphone...not yours.

I read two different studies on that subject and both say that the
reaction time and the ability to make correct decisions when using the
cellphone is just about as impaired when using a cellphone as it is when
driving with .1% BAC. The accident rates with cellphones seem to confirm
that.

>> When I text message while driving, the phone is held at arms length on
>> top of the dashboard so my view is always directed at the road ahead and
>> I view the phone in my lower peripheral vision.
>
> So you genuinely believe you can text message while driving and *not* have
> it distract you, eh?

Its just like with the smokers 'my uncle smoked and lived to be 99' -
until it happens to them and they have to live or die with it.

Chris