Interesting story about home automobile gasoline filling stationsin residential property

Interesting story just developed over the past two months that I figured
I'd let you know about in case it happens to you.

For about five years, I've been in an unfriendly situation with my
nearest neighbor (over past events with the kids getting into trouble and
barking loose dogs).

Then, the past two months, no less than 5 inspectors came to my property
to check for hazardous conditions due to 'anonymous' complaints.

The first was the fire marshall who was told I had 'large gasoline tanks'
on the property. Turns out, fuel containers of fewer than 60 gallons each
are exempt from fire marshall permit needs (a permit application alone,
he told me, is over $750).

That didn't strike me as too weird until the zoning guys dropped by. They
said someone complained about an improper 'accessory structure' used to
house gasoline. Turns out any accessory structure that is six feet from
the property line meets zoning requirements, so he left me alone.

It started to get weirder when the building inspector showed up for the
same reason (don't these guys talk to each other?). He too left empty
handed. Apparently an accessory structure only needs a permit if it's
greater than 120 square feet and if its highest point is greater than 14
feet tall.

I knew someone had it in for me when, a month later, my wife called me at
work to say there was a guy snooping around the property without even
knocking on the door! She called the police and then called me!

Turns out, it was a hazmat inspector who had received a complaint about a
'primary container' leaking with no 'secondary containment' in place. He
left before I arrived but told my wife that there was nothing he could or
would do unless it was actually leaking as there are no storage
regulations for private property other than you can't actually leak
gasoline into the ground.

He did suggest a 'secondary containment' of an oblong horse trough though.

I rushed home early from work to find both the police and yet another
inspector talking to my wife in the back yard. This inspector was from
the air quality management district. He said that organic fuel gas tanks
less than 260 gallons were exempt from vapor recovery & pressure venting
requirements, so he left before the cop finished asking questions.

The cop seemed amused by the whole story - but he asked a LOT of
questions about the gas cans lying around.

Turns out that you can't transport anything heavier (yes, heavier) than
500 pounds of "fuel" in a vehicle (not counting the vehicle's gasoline
tank itself) which he said was 62 gallons of gasoline (#11160 title 13
California Code of Regulations & 32000.5a California Vehicle Code). He
also mentioned that 172.504c Title 49 of the code of Federal Regulations
requires a placard if you carry more than 1,000 pounds of gasoline.

Since I'm only carrying about 50 gallons, I'm exempt from that too!

All in all, an interesting story. Now, I do have a sense of humor so I
have to figure out how I can get my neighbor back.

Have you ever engaged in these type of neighborly wars? Any good ideas?

worker bee wrote:
> Interesting story just developed over the past two months that I figured
> I'd let you know about in case it happens to you.
>
> For about five years, I've been in an unfriendly situation with my
> nearest neighbor (over past events with the kids getting into trouble and
> barking loose dogs).
>
> Then, the past two months, no less than 5 inspectors came to my property
> to check for hazardous conditions due to 'anonymous' complaints.
>
> The first was the fire marshall who was told I had 'large gasoline tanks'
> on the property. Turns out, fuel containers of fewer than 60 gallons each
> are exempt from fire marshall permit needs (a permit application alone,
> he told me, is over $750).
>
> That didn't strike me as too weird until the zoning guys dropped by. They
> said someone complained about an improper 'accessory structure' used to
> house gasoline. Turns out any accessory structure that is six feet from
> the property line meets zoning requirements, so he left me alone.
>
> It started to get weirder when the building inspector showed up for the
> same reason (don't these guys talk to each other?). He too left empty
> handed. Apparently an accessory structure only needs a permit if it's
> greater than 120 square feet and if its highest point is greater than 14
> feet tall.
>
> I knew someone had it in for me when, a month later, my wife called me at
> work to say there was a guy snooping around the property without even
> knocking on the door! She called the police and then called me!
>
> Turns out, it was a hazmat inspector who had received a complaint about a
> 'primary container' leaking with no 'secondary containment' in place. He
> left before I arrived but told my wife that there was nothing he could or
> would do unless it was actually leaking as there are no storage
> regulations for private property other than you can't actually leak
> gasoline into the ground.
>
> He did suggest a 'secondary containment' of an oblong horse trough though.
>
> I rushed home early from work to find both the police and yet another
> inspector talking to my wife in the back yard. This inspector was from
> the air quality management district. He said that organic fuel gas tanks
> less than 260 gallons were exempt from vapor recovery& pressure venting
> requirements, so he left before the cop finished asking questions.
>
> The cop seemed amused by the whole story - but he asked a LOT of
> questions about the gas cans lying around.
>
> Turns out that you can't transport anything heavier (yes, heavier) than
> 500 pounds of "fuel" in a vehicle (not counting the vehicle's gasoline
> tank itself) which he said was 62 gallons of gasoline (#11160 title 13
> California Code of Regulations& 32000.5a California Vehicle Code). He
> also mentioned that 172.504c Title 49 of the code of Federal Regulations
> requires a placard if you carry more than 1,000 pounds of gasoline.
>
> Since I'm only carrying about 50 gallons, I'm exempt from that too!
>
> All in all, an interesting story. Now, I do have a sense of humor so I
> have to figure out how I can get my neighbor back.
>
> Have you ever engaged in these type of neighborly wars? Any good ideas?
Hmmm
60 gal. of gas is more tan a big drumful. How come so much gas. in the
yard? Gas blend changes from season to season.

On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 22:01:09 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
> Do you keep a lot of gas cans on your property - in full public view?

I have 10 five-gallon Blitz gasoline containers & a 55 gallon drum where
I pour them into, about once a month or so (as needed). So most of the
time the 10 red cans are empty (caps loose, open to the atmosphere) and
the 55-gallon drum is how I dispense gasoline to two vehicles with a
gasoline pump.

The neighbor can see into my back yard, as I can see into his as there
are few surrounding trees - only small shrubs which afford no great means
of privacy unfortunately.

> Do you handle a lot of gas cans (moving them around) on your property?

Once a month or so, I fill the 10 5-gallon portable gasoline containers
at a filling station and use them to refill the 55-gallon drum. Other
than that, they don't 'move' around my property.

> Is there a constant odor of gasoline hanging around your property that
> the neighbor can smell? Or can the neighbor see you and your gas cans
> without too much effort?

No way would there be an odor. There is way too much wind for that. Plus
there are no vapors to speak of that one could smell. They're all closed
containers when full. However, the neighbor 'can' see the whole operation
from where he sits as he is slightly elevated over me and there are scant
foliage to hide my perfectly legal activities.

> The average home owner might have a few 5-gallon cans for lawn mowers or
> other small gas-powered engines - but it sounds like you dick around
> with so much gas that you must make a living out of it somehow.

No. I just fill my vehicles as needed. It takes about four to eight weeks
(average might be about six, but it varies) to empty the 55-gallon drum,
which necessitates a refill.

> Do you own/operate a yard-maintenance or landscaping company
> (lots of lawn mowers, small tractors, etc)? Or construction
> equipment (back-hoe, etc)?

No. Just your average tools. Riding mower. 2-stroke blower. Stile chain
saw. Four-bladed edger & cultivator. Weed trimmer. 2-inch wood chipper.
Just the normal stuff. Why do you ask?

> Or maybe you have lots of recreational vehicles? Boats or other
> watercraft? Dirt bikes or ATV's?

One motorcycle. Two cars. A half dozen regular yard engines. Normal
stuff. But they all use gasoline to the tune of roughly fifteen or so
gallons a week (give or take a few).

On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 19:10:12 -0800, bob haller wrote:
> gasoline spoils very fast when it has 10% ethanol

Actually, as far as I can tell, gasoline doesn't spoil all 'that' fast.

I use up the entire 55 gallon drum in just a few weeks, depending on my
driving of course. It generally takes less than two months to use it all
up.

Even California blended corn-o-haul easily lasts two months from what
I've seen in the literature. HOWEVER (and this is a big but) ... EVERYONE
says gas doesn't last long but NOBODY actually has a length of time
specified that anyone else will agree to.

Hearing people say gas doesn't last is about as useful as hearing people
say life isn't what it used to be. It's meaningless the way it's used.

NOBODY but nobody can tell me how LONG gasoline REALLY lasts but EVERYONE
I talk to says two months is just fine. I even called Chevron and they
said there is no problem using their reformulated California gas months
after it was dispensed. They said WATER is the main culprit in gasoline
going bad - and they said that as long as you keep water out of the tank,
it should easily last the time I'm using it. They said heat also matters,
but, at outside temperatures, it doesn't matter as much as water does.

So, if anyone can find an actual TIME that others will agree to that
gasoline lasts in outside storage - I'd be the first one to listen to
them - but two months seems, by all accounts, to be well within the
agreed-upon stable storage period.

On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 20:45:40 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
> 60 gal. of gas is more tan a big drumful. How come so much gas. in the
> yard? Gas blend changes from season to season.

Actually, it's a 55 gallon drum and I don't seem to get even 50 gallons
into it, strangely enough. But I generally fill it before it goes empty
so I haven't filled it from empty since it was new a few years ago.

I use the gas up within two months (generally a month to a month and a
half is when I refill) so I really doubt the seasons matter all that much
- especially in California where there is really only one, maybe two at
most, seasons anyway. There is a cool dry summer and a slightly cooler
wetter winter - neither of which has a temperature swing you can't get in
a single day in most other northern parts of the country.

My gas tank is about 20 gallons. The wife's tank is about 20 gallons. The
bike is about 5 gallons. And the lawn mower and a half dozen other
engines around the yard takes another 5 gallons.

So, a single fillup (which in practice rarely happens) will empty out the
55-gallon drum. I don't see how this amount is any different than most of
you out there.

Don't you guys have a car for you, and one for the wife, and maybe a
secondary vehicle? Don't you have lawn mowers? Don't you have other yard
equipment? I would think 55 gallons is the bare minimum since all it does
is fill the tanks just once.

What I 'really' want is TWO 55 gallon drums. Actually, I'd love a 200
gallon tank - but once you get over 60 gallons, you start getting into
fire marshall permits & transportation permits and anything over 260
gallons for delivered fuel gets you into air resource board requirements.

So, 55 gallons seems a bare minimum, at least to me. Maybe you guys go to
the gas station a lot more than I do? Or you and your wife drive the same
car?

On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 23:25:05 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
> the next step your neighbor is likely to take is
> to throw a cigarette at it.



Cigarettes don't light liquid gasoline like they do in the movies, simply
because a cigarette is about 475°F (plus or minus 25°F) while the
ignition temperature of liquid gasoline is just slightly above that at
around 500°F. So, of course a very hot cigarette 'could' ignite liquid
gasoline - but not one thrown over the fence at me by my neighbor!

Fire is, of course, the biggest realistic danger.

Everyone manages that risk daily - for example, a one-car garage has
roughly 20 gallons of gasoline in it in metal or plastic gas tanks; a two
car garage has about 40, and a three-car garage has about 60 gallons of
gasoline in them all the time. It's way more dangerous to have gasoline
in a garage than outside, in a very airy structure to keep sun and water
off the equipment.

My gasoline is kept outside, in a very well ventilated shed (it's almost
not a shed, it's that well ventilated). Gas fumes in and of themselves
are not flammable but when mixed with air, then of course, they're highly
flammable in the right concentration near the floor of any enclosure.

The biggest danger is static electricity igniting fumes.

This can happen while fueling the vehicles at roughly 15 gallons per
minute from the automatic-shut-off 1/4 HP 12VDC electric fuel transfer
pump. To ward that off, the setup is well grounded, of course, with two
copper rods (for redundancy), and a 10BC fire extinguisher is always
nearby, just in case.

But a home filling station is no more dangerous than a commercial
gasoline filling station is, and, in fact, less dangerous if the puny
amounts of gasoline (55 gallons) are taken into account.

On 3/12/2011 9:15 p.m., worker bee wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 22:01:09 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
>> Do you keep a lot of gas cans on your property - in full public view?
>
> I have 10 five-gallon Blitz gasoline containers& a 55 gallon drum where
> I pour them into, about once a month or so (as needed). So most of the
> time the 10 red cans are empty (caps loose, open to the atmosphere) and
> the 55-gallon drum is how I dispense gasoline to two vehicles with a
> gasoline pump.
>
> The neighbor can see into my back yard, as I can see into his as there
> are few surrounding trees - only small shrubs which afford no great means
> of privacy unfortunately.
>
>> Do you handle a lot of gas cans (moving them around) on your property?
>
> Once a month or so, I fill the 10 5-gallon portable gasoline containers
> at a filling station and use them to refill the 55-gallon drum. Other
> than that, they don't 'move' around my property.
>
Why can't you fill your car at the gas station like everybody else???.

At the moment the gas goes to the 5 gallon tank ( 10 times) to the 55
gallon drum (10 times) then to the car. Why all the stuffing around ???
Do it once!!!

If you want to upset your neighbor order him a dozen piazza or a load of
shingle.



--
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

clipped
>
> Have you ever engaged in these type of neighborly wars? Any good ideas?

Calling code enforcement is a good way to start a neighbor war...gotta
be careful where it goes. I called code once when condo neighbors all
had gasoline cans sitting outside their doors for boats...some never
used their boats, so the gas was probably years old. We had already had
minor thefts and vandalism, so didn't want the vandal critters to be
inspired by having gasoline at hand. One neighbor was gone a lot, so
his son took one of his gas cans and put it inside the condo! The FD
enforced .. very nicely .. using the right kind of can, away from the
structure. The gas cans were stored outside front doors after I called
code enf. to get rid of recycling bins (full of trash) outside front
doors. The recycling bins, prior to my arrival at the condo, replaced
open trash cans that were the dining area for rats. They changed from
open trash cans to (free) dumpster, which helped. Another neighbor had
called code enf. about attic rats - there had been very heavy
infestation - and the code guy found only "dust balls in the AC duct";
had he checked the attic, he's have found lots of rat sign. After one
elderly neighbor passed away, I helped organize the estate sale in his
condo unit..great big rat trap on his closet shelf. These are not poor
folks we're talking about...

worker bee wrote:
> Interesting story just developed over the past two months that I
> figured I'd let you know about in case it happens to you.
>
> For about five years, I've been in an unfriendly situation with my
> nearest neighbor (over past events with the kids getting into trouble
> and barking loose dogs).
>
> Then, the past two months, no less than 5 inspectors came to my
> property to check for hazardous conditions due to 'anonymous'
> complaints.
>
> The first was the fire marshall who was told I had 'large gasoline
> tanks' on the property. Turns out, fuel containers of fewer than 60
> gallons each are exempt from fire marshall permit needs (a permit
> application alone, he told me, is over $750).
>
> That didn't strike me as too weird until the zoning guys dropped by.
> They said someone complained about an improper 'accessory structure'
> used to house gasoline. Turns out any accessory structure that is six
> feet from the property line meets zoning requirements, so he left me
> alone.
>
> It started to get weirder when the building inspector showed up for
> the same reason (don't these guys talk to each other?). He too left
> empty handed. Apparently an accessory structure only needs a permit
> if it's greater than 120 square feet and if its highest point is
> greater than 14 feet tall.
>
> I knew someone had it in for me when, a month later, my wife called
> me at work to say there was a guy snooping around the property
> without even knocking on the door! She called the police and then
> called me!
>
> Turns out, it was a hazmat inspector who had received a complaint
> about a 'primary container' leaking with no 'secondary containment'
> in place. He left before I arrived but told my wife that there was
> nothing he could or would do unless it was actually leaking as there
> are no storage regulations for private property other than you can't
> actually leak gasoline into the ground.
>
> He did suggest a 'secondary containment' of an oblong horse trough
> though.
>
> I rushed home early from work to find both the police and yet another
> inspector talking to my wife in the back yard. This inspector was from
> the air quality management district. He said that organic fuel gas
> tanks less than 260 gallons were exempt from vapor recovery &
> pressure venting requirements, so he left before the cop finished
> asking questions.
>
> The cop seemed amused by the whole story - but he asked a LOT of
> questions about the gas cans lying around.
>
> Turns out that you can't transport anything heavier (yes, heavier)
> than 500 pounds of "fuel" in a vehicle (not counting the vehicle's
> gasoline tank itself) which he said was 62 gallons of gasoline
> (#11160 title 13 California Code of Regulations & 32000.5a California
> Vehicle Code). He also mentioned that 172.504c Title 49 of the code
> of Federal Regulations requires a placard if you carry more than
> 1,000 pounds of gasoline.
>
> Since I'm only carrying about 50 gallons, I'm exempt from that too!
>
> All in all, an interesting story. Now, I do have a sense of humor so I
> have to figure out how I can get my neighbor back.
>
> Have you ever engaged in these type of neighborly wars? Any good
> ideas?

You should ignore the insults and irritations or respond with a scorched
earth policy.

If you reply to your neighbor's affronts with piddly responses, like sending
him a fire engine at 3:00 a.m., this tit-for-tat business will go on for
decades, causing continuing fluxations and causing you (and him) to nearly
itch to death.

Now by "scorched earth" I mean doing something, probably illegal, but that
has a consequence orders of magnitudes greater than a mere inconvenience.

* Find about three of your like-minded neighbors. Visit your neighbor and
beat the **** out of him. I mean sufficient to put him, if not in the
hospital, at least in the emergency room.

* In the dark of the moon, plant some Marijuana shrubs in an out of the way
place on his property. Wait a week. Call the fuzz.

Consult the book: "Make My Day." Get it he
http://www.amazon.com/Make-My-Day-Ha...2915184&sr=1-1

I particularily liked the episode where a chap, after getting screwed by an
attorney, impersonated the attorney in talks with both the telephone company
and a local cemetery. He persuaded both that he was in desperate fear of
being buried alive and wanted a telephone in his casket and that he was
willing to pay any amount.

Negotiations continued for several weeks, but finally both the telephone
company and the cemetery found ways, at no small expense, to accommodate his
request.

He then took out an "ad" in a local suburban newspaper, disguised as an
obituary, of the target attorney. The legal-specialty newspaper in his
community picked it up and republished the faux death notice.

By this time, both the cemetery and the telephone company were pestering the
object attorney with demands that he come right down and sign some papers.

Then it got worse for the lawyer.

On Dec 3, 3:38*am, worker bee > wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 20:45:40 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
> > 60 gal. of gas is more tan a big drumful. How come so much gas. in the
> > yard? Gas blend changes from season to season.
>
> Actually, it's a 55 gallon drum and I don't seem to get even 50 gallons
> into it, strangely enough. But I generally fill it before it goes empty
> so I haven't filled it from empty since it was new a few years ago.
>
> I use the gas up within two months (generally a month to a month and a
> half is when I refill) so I really doubt the seasons matter all that much
> - especially in California where there is really only one, maybe two at
> most, seasons anyway. There is a cool dry summer and a slightly cooler
> wetter winter - neither of which has a temperature swing you can't get in
> a single day in most other northern parts of the country.
>
> My gas tank is about 20 gallons. The wife's tank is about 20 gallons. The
> bike is about 5 gallons. And the lawn mower and a half dozen other
> engines around the yard takes another 5 gallons.
>
> So, a single fillup (which in practice rarely happens) will empty out the
> 55-gallon drum. I don't see how this amount is any different than most of
> you out there.
>
> Don't you guys have a car for you, and one for the wife, and maybe a
> secondary vehicle? Don't you have lawn mowers? Don't you have other yard
> equipment? I would think 55 gallons is the bare minimum since all it does
> is fill the tanks just once.
>
> What I 'really' want is TWO 55 gallon drums. Actually, I'd love a 200
> gallon tank - but once you get over 60 gallons, you start getting into
> fire marshall permits & transportation permits and anything over 260
> gallons for delivered fuel gets you into air resource board requirements.
>
> So, 55 gallons seems a bare minimum, at least to me. Maybe you guys go to
> the gas station a lot more than I do? Or you and your wife drive the same
> car?

I suspect that with someone who is doing what you say
you're doing there is probably plenty more you're doing to **** off
your neighbor. I've known a lot of people and seen a lot of things,
but I never saw anyone trucking gasoline home in 5 gallon cans
and maintaining a 55 gallon drum in their backyard to routinely
fill their autos.

As for being the same as using a gas station, it's not. Gas stations
have been required to have vapor recovery systems for years now.
That's why the nozzles now have a rubber covering that must be
pressed against the tank for the fuel to flow. As the fuel flows in
the system sucks up the vapors that come out as the air is displaced.
It prevents those vapors from getting into the air. Is what you're
doing a major environmental deal? No, but is sure doesn't help
and it sounds pretty loony to me.

You also don't say exactly how close the neighbor's house is to
where you're storing and pumping this gasoline. He sees you
screwing around with at least a 55 gallon drum of gasoline,
filling it, pumping it, etc. He doesn't know exactly how much
you have or what you are doing. He does know that it sure
is strange and I think he had every right to call authorities to
make sure it complies with safety regulations.

I also suspect there is more to this story than that you use
the gasoline to fill your personal automobiles. More likely
it's being used for some business, which of course would
be a zoning violation.