Goldfish's natural habitat has salt?

[NetMax]

Salt (pure sodium chloride) is often recommended for certain fishes, ie:
Koi, Goldfish, livebearers, African Rift lake cichlids and brackish water
fishes (Mono, Archers, some puffers etc).

In actuality, the requirement for some of these fish is not salt, but for
hard alkaline water (and sodium chloride does not make water 'hard').
For example, the Rift lakes have no significant sodium chloride in the
water, but they are very hard and at a pH of 7.6 to 9.1.

Livebearers and brackish water fish can reasonably be said to benefit
from some salt as they evolved in freshwater which was in close proximity
to marine conditions, so they were either always somewhat influenced
(livebearers, esp. Mollies)) or they have life stages which are in marine
conditions (brackish fishes).

So my question is (1) do Goldfish and/or Koi naturally come from
salt-free hardwater environments (like some of the African cichlids), or
did they have an *evolutionary* history in proximity to sodium chloride
(natural salt).

And.. (2) is the practice of keeping them in salt becoming universal
enough that they will develop a dependence and suffer without it? I
already see this with Guppies and it's spreading to other livebearers.
Currently, I know that I can keep goldfish in soft neutral salt-free
water with little concern, but is this changing with the breeding
techniques being followed (of using hot saline conditions to breed &
raise them).

TIA
--
www.NetMax.tk

[BErney1014]

>I know that I can keep goldfish in soft neutral salt-free
>water with little concern, but is this changing with the breeding
>techniques being followed (of using hot saline conditions to breed &
>raise them).

The original use for treatment still holds true but a daily use is voodoo.
Sodium is not necessary in goldfish other than trace amounts.
I'm curious about the above breeding techniques; what temp is hot and what
concentration is saline?

[Charles]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:09:21 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>Salt (pure sodium chloride) is often recommended for certain fishes, ie:
>Koi, Goldfish, livebearers, African Rift lake cichlids and brackish water
>fishes (Mono, Archers, some puffers etc).
>
>In actuality, the requirement for some of these fish is not salt, but for
>hard alkaline water (and sodium chloride does not make water 'hard').
>For example, the Rift lakes have no significant sodium chloride in the
>water, but they are very hard and at a pH of 7.6 to 9.1.
>
>Livebearers and brackish water fish can reasonably be said to benefit
>from some salt as they evolved in freshwater which was in close proximity
>to marine conditions, so they were either always somewhat influenced
>(livebearers, esp. Mollies)) or they have life stages which are in marine
>conditions (brackish fishes).
>
>So my question is (1) do Goldfish and/or Koi naturally come from
>salt-free hardwater environments (like some of the African cichlids), or
>did they have an *evolutionary* history in proximity to sodium chloride
>(natural salt).
>
>And.. (2) is the practice of keeping them in salt becoming universal
>enough that they will develop a dependence and suffer without it? I
>already see this with Guppies and it's spreading to other livebearers.
>Currently, I know that I can keep goldfish in soft neutral salt-free
>water with little concern, but is this changing with the breeding
>techniques being followed (of using hot saline conditions to breed &
>raise them).
>
>TIA


To first address your direct question, I don't know what native
goldfish/carp water is like. My general impression is that most of
east Asia has rather soft water.

I have read, as you state here, that livebearers need hard, alkaline
water. I have questioned, and never found a good response, if the
hardness (calcium, magnesium) is all that important, or if it might be
the water's electrical conductivity, which salt would affect, or if it
is osmotic pressure, which could be done with sugar. (Not sure why
anybody would, but it can. Actually I have read that a sugar of some
sort was involved in the keeping of salt and fresh water fish
together, a fad in the late 60's}

I spoke very briefly at a guppy show with one of the "names" in guppy
raising. He was saying that salt was imperative to raise show quality
guppies. I asked him if it was the sodium or the chloride, I stated
that I thought I had enough stuff in my water already (about 1000 ppm)
The discussion drifted away very rapidly, I never got an answer.

I have also read that guppies are raised in salt water in Singapore,
because they can be raised that way and salt water is much more
available, fresh water is a precious commodity there. Are they raised
in salt water other places as well.

If I remember correctly, some swordtails come from high mountain
streams, they are not used to hard water.




--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[[email protected]]

koi and GF are no longer "wild" or natural. The vast majority are raised in ponds in
warm areas of the world that uses salt. Brett (who raises koi) is down in Texas and
his natural water is saline but he adds salt in addition to keep parasites and
problems down. Many areas of the US (especially near the coasts) have a natural
salinity up to 0.05% which is a fine concentration.
"fresh" waters are all over the place in terms of alkalinity and salinity. Here in
Wisconsin well water has well over 600 ppm hardness with little salinity and the pH
is stable. OTOH, the lake water (which is the city water) is low in carbonate and
alkalinity and I have to add calcium in my outdoor koi pond to prevent rain water
from diluting what little hardness there is and having pH swings.
OTOH, the Israelis grow koi and GF and DONT use any salt. In fact, put in 0.1% salt
and the fish react severely by pouring out ammonia. So adding salt to their water
needs to be very slow and careful.
Yes. I do think most koi and GF are dependent to one degree or another on salt since
that is where most of them are raised. Most of us wont know where the fish come from
when we buy in pet stores. so it is prudent to add salt slowly.
I do believe 0.05-0.1% salt is good prophylactic practice as it stimulates the
turnover of the slime coat and helps with osmotic pressure.
It is tricky to keep GF in any water that isnt sufficiently buffered, meaning acidic
and without sufficient hardness. salinity is another matter.
Ingrid

"NetMax" > wrote:
>So my question is (1) do Goldfish and/or Koi naturally come from
>salt-free hardwater environments (like some of the African cichlids), or
>did they have an *evolutionary* history in proximity to sodium chloride
>(natural salt).
>And.. (2) is the practice of keeping them in salt becoming universal
>enough that they will develop a dependence and suffer without it? I
>already see this with Guppies and it's spreading to other livebearers.
>Currently, I know that I can keep goldfish in soft neutral salt-free
>water with little concern, but is this changing with the breeding
>techniques being followed (of using hot saline conditions to breed &
>raise them).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[NetMax]

"BErney1014" > wrote in message
...
> >I know that I can keep goldfish in soft neutral salt-free
> >water with little concern, but is this changing with the breeding
> >techniques being followed (of using hot saline conditions to breed &
> >raise them).
<snip>

> I'm curious about the above breeding techniques; what temp is hot and
what
> concentration is saline?

I work with a network of wholesalers, distributors and transhippers, so
you would think that this information would be readily available, but
it's not. Breeding and grow-out conditions are proprietary secrets.
Once, when I asked about temperature, I was told it varies, however when
I was combating a disease, one importer told me to put the Goldfish at
85F. When I questioned this, I was told that it would be no problem as
they are raised in that temperature (they grow faster and there are less
diseases). Another time, when I asked about salt, I was vaguely told
that whatever quantity I used would be fine (I got the feeling that
whatever concentration I used would not be as high as what that
particular buyer's breeder was already using). This is why I'm
researching to see what conditions are most beneficial to the fish
species (as opposed to the fish farmers).

The situation with livebearers, particularly Guppies has already gone too
far (imo). Many go sickly after a few weeks of being put into
freshwater. I only have one importer who occasionally has 'freshwater'
Guppies for sale. There should really be some type of a governing body
representing the industry (and hobbyists), to promote standards which
prevent the use of conditions which are short sighted. Local breeders
will need to pick up Guppy production, as is already done for Angelfish
and to an extent, Discus, but we cannot be expected to 'rescue' every
species the mass-producers mess up.

I'd better stop before I'm on a soapbox, and go back to gathering factual
data, ie:

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Carassius&speciesname=auratus%20auratus
demersal; freshwater; pH range: 6.0 - 8.0; dH range: 5.0 - 19.0 ; depth
range - 10 m
climate: subtropical; 0 - 41°C (32-105°F); 53°N - 22°N
Inhabit rivers, lakes, ponds and ditches with stagnant or slow-flowing
water.... They live better in cold water.... Maximum recorded salinity is
17 ppt, but unable to withstand prolonged exposure above 15 ppt.

So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Charles]

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:29:53 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

(snip)
>
>I'd better stop before I'm on a soapbox, and go back to gathering factual
>data, ie:
>
>http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Carassius&speciesname=auratus%20auratus
>demersal; freshwater; pH range: 6.0 - 8.0; dH range: 5.0 - 19.0 ; depth
>range - 10 m
>climate: subtropical; 0 - 41°C (32-105°F); 53°N - 22°N
>Inhabit rivers, lakes, ponds and ditches with stagnant or slow-flowing
>water.... They live better in cold water.... Maximum recorded salinity is
>17 ppt, but unable to withstand prolonged exposure above 15 ppt.
>
>So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?


If a liter is 1000 grams, then 15 grams of salt would be 15 ppt, no?

I just weighed some Morton's rock salt, a tablespoon measured from 16
to 19 grams, depending on how it rounded off when I gently shook it.

A US gallon is 3.78533 liters.

A British gallon is 4.5459631 liters ( of maybe liters, in this case.)

Then there is the problem, if we take a liter of water (volume) which
weighs 1000 grams (at some temperature) and add 15 grams of salt, the
mix will now weigh 1015 grams, so we could say that we have 15 parts
per 1015, rather than ppt. I believe the volume will shrink when the
salt is added, that's a memory from way back when.

So, one tablespoon of salt (rock salt) per liter, of 37 tablespoons
for a 10 gallons tank. That's a lot of salt.

Granulated salt comes in about 19 grams per tablespoon in my
weighings. I thought it would be more, that it would pack more
densely than rock salt.

Hain Pure Foods sea salt, for what it's worth. Harder to get back
into the container as well.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[[email protected]]

0.15% ... about 3 teaspoons per 5 gallons. 0.9lbs per 100 gallons. Ingrid

"NetMax" > wrote:
>So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[NetMax]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:29:53 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >
> >I'd better stop before I'm on a soapbox, and go back to gathering
factual
> >data, ie:
> >
>
>http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Carassius&s
peciesname=auratus%20auratus
> >demersal; freshwater; pH range: 6.0 - 8.0; dH range: 5.0 - 19.0 ;
depth
> >range - 10 m
> >climate: subtropical; 0 - 41°C (32-105°F); 53°N - 22°N
> >Inhabit rivers, lakes, ponds and ditches with stagnant or slow-flowing
> >water.... They live better in cold water.... Maximum recorded salinity
is
> >17 ppt, but unable to withstand prolonged exposure above 15 ppt.
> >
> >So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?
>
>
> If a liter is 1000 grams, then 15 grams of salt would be 15 ppt, no?
>
> I just weighed some Morton's rock salt, a tablespoon measured from 16
> to 19 grams, depending on how it rounded off when I gently shook it.
>
> A US gallon is 3.78533 liters.
>
> A British gallon is 4.5459631 liters ( of maybe liters, in this case.)
>
> Then there is the problem, if we take a liter of water (volume) which
> weighs 1000 grams (at some temperature) and add 15 grams of salt, the
> mix will now weigh 1015 grams, so we could say that we have 15 parts
> per 1015, rather than ppt. I believe the volume will shrink when the
> salt is added, that's a memory from way back when.
>
> So, one tablespoon of salt (rock salt) per liter, of 37 tablespoons
> for a 10 gallons tank. That's a lot of salt.
>
> Granulated salt comes in about 19 grams per tablespoon in my
> weighings. I thought it would be more, that it would pack more
> densely than rock salt.
>
> Hain Pure Foods sea salt, for what it's worth. Harder to get back
> into the container as well.

So for 5 gallons, Ingrid gets 3 teaspoons and you get 18-1/2 tablespoons
(or 55.5 teaspoons) - but your methology was far more entertaining ;~).
The first sounds very low while the latter sounds quite high (but it's
easy to critique when it's someone else's work).

Assuming both you and Ingrid are in the states, the US teaspoon is 4.93ml
(the UK teaspoon is 3.63ml) and the US tablespoon is 14.79ml (UK
tablespoon is 14.5ml). Five US gallons is 18.93 litres (I'm too old to
be a big fan of metric, but in this case, I think ml and litres will be
our friend ;~).

So that's 14.79ml versus 273.62ml (into 18.93 l), or based on 1000 litres
(to get ppt), thats
..01479 litres x 52.86 = 0.781 ppt
..27362 litres x 52.86 = 14.45 ppt

14.45ppt (if this is correct) works out to 11.1 teaspoons per US gallon.

Charles, your calculation uses a grams to ml assumption, and also I would
think that a salt ppt refers to a liquid concentration, perhaps based on
salt-saturated water at .15%, or perhaps on molecular weights ? *I* have
no idea how to do this properly, and my confidence in your answers is not
being inspired either ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
>
> - Charles
> -
> -does not play well with others

[NetMax]

Seems very low Ingrid. I already use one cup of salt into a 60g tank
which is 4 teaspoons per 5 gallons.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> wrote in message
...
> 0.15% ... about 3 teaspoons per 5 gallons. 0.9lbs per 100 gallons.
Ingrid
>
> "NetMax" > wrote:
> >So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

% is grams per 100 ml. low level salt is 0.1% or approximately 1 tablespoon rock
salt per 5 gallons of water, or 0.9lb per 100 gallons of water. Ingrid

Charles > wrote:
>If a liter is 1000 grams, then 15 grams of salt would be 15 ppt, no?
>
>I just weighed some Morton's rock salt, a tablespoon measured from 16
>to 19 grams, depending on how it rounded off when I gently shook it.
>
>A US gallon is 3.78533 liters.
>
>A British gallon is 4.5459631 liters ( of maybe liters, in this case.)
>
>Then there is the problem, if we take a liter of water (volume) which
>weighs 1000 grams (at some temperature) and add 15 grams of salt, the
>mix will now weigh 1015 grams, so we could say that we have 15 parts
>per 1015, rather than ppt. I believe the volume will shrink when the
>salt is added, that's a memory from way back when.
>
>So, one tablespoon of salt (rock salt) per liter, of 37 tablespoons
>for a 10 gallons tank. That's a lot of salt.
>
>Granulated salt comes in about 19 grams per tablespoon in my
>weighings. I thought it would be more, that it would pack more
>densely than rock salt.
>
>Hain Pure Foods sea salt, for what it's worth. Harder to get back
>into the container as well.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon

"NetMax" > wrote:

>Seems very low Ingrid. I already use one cup of salt into a 60g tank
>which is 4 teaspoons per 5 gallons.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Charles]

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:56:35 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>Seems very low Ingrid. I already use one cup of salt into a 60g tank
>which is 4 teaspoons per 5 gallons.


Your 156 ppt should be 1.5%, not .15%

15% would be 15 pph (parts per hundred)
1.5% would then be 15 ppt.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Charles]

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:47:19 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Charles" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:29:53 -0400, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>> >
>> >I'd better stop before I'm on a soapbox, and go back to gathering
>factual
>> >data, ie:
>> >
>>
>>http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Carassius&s
>peciesname=auratus%20auratus
>> >demersal; freshwater; pH range: 6.0 - 8.0; dH range: 5.0 - 19.0 ;
>depth
>> >range - 10 m
>> >climate: subtropical; 0 - 41°C (32-105°F); 53°N - 22°N
>> >Inhabit rivers, lakes, ponds and ditches with stagnant or slow-flowing
>> >water.... They live better in cold water.... Maximum recorded salinity
>is
>> >17 ppt, but unable to withstand prolonged exposure above 15 ppt.
>> >
>> >So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?
>>
>>
>> If a liter is 1000 grams, then 15 grams of salt would be 15 ppt, no?
>>
>> I just weighed some Morton's rock salt, a tablespoon measured from 16
>> to 19 grams, depending on how it rounded off when I gently shook it.
>>
>> A US gallon is 3.78533 liters.
>>
>> A British gallon is 4.5459631 liters ( of maybe liters, in this case.)
>>
>> Then there is the problem, if we take a liter of water (volume) which
>> weighs 1000 grams (at some temperature) and add 15 grams of salt, the
>> mix will now weigh 1015 grams, so we could say that we have 15 parts
>> per 1015, rather than ppt. I believe the volume will shrink when the
>> salt is added, that's a memory from way back when.
>>
>> So, one tablespoon of salt (rock salt) per liter, of 37 tablespoons
>> for a 10 gallons tank. That's a lot of salt.
>>
>> Granulated salt comes in about 19 grams per tablespoon in my
>> weighings. I thought it would be more, that it would pack more
>> densely than rock salt.
>>
>> Hain Pure Foods sea salt, for what it's worth. Harder to get back
>> into the container as well.
>
>So for 5 gallons, Ingrid gets 3 teaspoons and you get 18-1/2 tablespoons
>(or 55.5 teaspoons) - but your methology was far more entertaining ;~).
>The first sounds very low while the latter sounds quite high (but it's
>easy to critique when it's someone else's work).
>
>Assuming both you and Ingrid are in the states, the US teaspoon is 4.93ml
>(the UK teaspoon is 3.63ml) and the US tablespoon is 14.79ml (UK
>tablespoon is 14.5ml). Five US gallons is 18.93 litres (I'm too old to
>be a big fan of metric, but in this case, I think ml and litres will be
>our friend ;~).
>
>So that's 14.79ml versus 273.62ml (into 18.93 l), or based on 1000 litres
>(to get ppt), thats
>.01479 litres x 52.86 = 0.781 ppt
>.27362 litres x 52.86 = 14.45 ppt
>
>14.45ppt (if this is correct) works out to 11.1 teaspoons per US gallon.
>
>Charles, your calculation uses a grams to ml assumption, and also I would
>think that a salt ppt refers to a liquid concentration, perhaps based on
>salt-saturated water at .15%, or perhaps on molecular weights ? *I* have
>no idea how to do this properly, and my confidence in your answers is not
>being inspired either ;~)


Yes, we are throwing around mass, weight, and volume just as if they
could be interchanged.

for molecular weights just add up the atomic weights for each
molecule.

Weights for the elements can be found here:

http://www.chem.qmw.ac.uk/iupac/AtWt/

among other places. Thus water, H2O would be about 18, salt, NaCl
about 58.3

Those numbers would be used for calculating molar or molal solutions,
but ppt is just parts of salt in parts of water, as far as I know.

Post a query to sci.chem, there are plenty of smart people there, and
some strange ones as well.

I was trying to do the calculations for the 15 ppt salt, the
survivable dose, and not at all recommended. I personally don't add
salt as a routine, I did it once for a fish that was recovering from
surgery at the direction of the vet. I think my water has enough
stuff in it already.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[NetMax]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:47:19 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Charles" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:29:53 -0400, "NetMax"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> (snip)

> I was trying to do the calculations for the 15 ppt salt, the
> survivable dose, and not at all recommended. I personally don't add
> salt as a routine, I did it once for a fish that was recovering from
> surgery at the direction of the vet. I think my water has enough
> stuff in it already.


Thanks Charles! The upper limit was just to give me a sense of
reference. I'm always either zero, or under a teaspoon per gallon. I'm
more than a factor of ten away from their upper sustainable limit, so I
don't need to be concerned, but if I hear any numbers from suppliers,
I'll be able to position them between my tanks and the extreme, and have
a sense of the acclimation needed.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
>
> - Charles
> -
> -does not play well with others

[Charles]

More info here:

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html#kh


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Geezer From The Freezer]

NetMax wrote:
>
> Seems very low Ingrid. I already use one cup of salt into a 60g tank
> which is 4 teaspoons per 5 gallons.

To get a rough 0.3% salt solution I always use 1 tablespoon per gallon.

[NetMax]

"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> NetMax wrote:
> >
> > Seems very low Ingrid. I already use one cup of salt into a 60g tank
> > which is 4 teaspoons per 5 gallons.
>
> To get a rough 0.3% salt solution I always use 1 tablespoon per gallon.

That's convenient. Every teaspoon per gallon is 0.1% then, kewl (I'm
getting old and I need all the memory aids I can remember).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Geezer From The Freezer]

NetMax wrote:
>
> "Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > NetMax wrote:
> > >
> > > Seems very low Ingrid. I already use one cup of salt into a 60g tank
> > > which is 4 teaspoons per 5 gallons.
> >
> > To get a rough 0.3% salt solution I always use 1 tablespoon per gallon.
>
> That's convenient. Every teaspoon per gallon is 0.1% then, kewl (I'm
> getting old and I need all the memory aids I can remember).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

Netmax,

roughly...yes

[BErney1014]

>This is why I'm
>researching to see what conditions are most beneficial to the fish
>species (as opposed to the fish farmers).

Last year I bought a DVD that had some "optimum" data and it contradicts what
most people preach. I asked the author and he gave some additional facts but
not much. I don't have the time right now to go into lengthly details but the
short version is temperatures are what they are and are not controlled. If the
high temps you were made aware of are from the newer breeding locations, it's
more likely environmental. Growth rates can be calculated (calories) and at a
higher metabolic rate it's expensive.
There was some discussion about high temps for fish with bacterial diseases
but when a Doctor was contacted he pointed out that 84-85F temperatures
maintain bacteria.
Good luck searching for facts. You may want to search journal abstracts for
some data. Goldfish are used as lab rats and a great deal of research is
available.

[NetMax]

"BErney1014" > wrote in message
...
> >This is why I'm
> >researching to see what conditions are most beneficial to the fish
> >species (as opposed to the fish farmers).
>
> Last year I bought a DVD that had some "optimum" data and it
contradicts what
> most people preach. I asked the author and he gave some additional
facts but
> not much. I don't have the time right now to go into lengthly details
but the
> short version is temperatures are what they are and are not controlled.
If the
> high temps you were made aware of are from the newer breeding
locations, it's
> more likely environmental. Growth rates can be calculated (calories)
and at a
> higher metabolic rate it's expensive.
> There was some discussion about high temps for fish with bacterial
diseases
> but when a Doctor was contacted he pointed out that 84-85F temperatures
> maintain bacteria.

Yes, I had one importer mention that. The higher temps get the fish out
to market faster and many diseases don't do well at these higher
temperatures, but when a disease does catch, it spreads very quickly,
much much faster than if the fish were kept at a lower temperature. I
suppose than in the risk ratio, they feel the elevated temperatures are
still more profitable to them.

> Good luck searching for facts. You may want to search journal abstracts
for
> some data. Goldfish are used as lab rats and a great deal of research
is
> available.

Thanks. I wouldn't know where to locate much in the way of research
journals, so any URLs you might have would be very helpful.
--
www.NetMax.tk

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there is a basic division. in fish parasites explode in population at higher temps.
bacteria are hindered. these are fish, not humans, cats or dogs. and what thrives
in a petri plate may not in the host. human bacteria thrive at 98.6oF, our body
temp. our response is to run a fever as a way of fighting bacteria.
viruses are intracellular, so whatever conditions make the target cells grow well is
what is best for viruses.
you might try "pubmed" online. learn to do searches and can sometimes pick up info.

Ingrid

"NetMax" > wrote:
>Yes, I had one importer mention that. The higher temps get the fish out
>to market faster and many diseases don't do well at these higher
>temperatures, but when a disease does catch, it spreads very quickly,
>much much faster than if the fish were kept at a lower temperature. I
>suppose than in the risk ratio, they feel the elevated temperatures are
>still more profitable to them.
>Thanks. I wouldn't know where to locate much in the way of research
>journals, so any URLs you might have would be very helpful.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
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[BErney1014]

>Thanks. I wouldn't know where to locate much in the way of research
>journals, so any URLs you might have would be very helpful.
>--
>www.NetMax.tk
>


When I'm looking for specific data I use some search engines or go into
Elsevier or Blackwell.
Biofilter has a comprehensive listing of white papers and Aquafeed.com has
access to nutritional data.
Governments also sponsor research; Austrailia, Canada, USA, UK etc.
A url I visited recently:
http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/research/divisions/reutd/fhm/aero2.cfm