Goldfish's natural habitat has salt?

Salt (pure sodium chloride) is often recommended for certain fishes, ie:
Koi, Goldfish, livebearers, African Rift lake cichlids and brackish water
fishes (Mono, Archers, some puffers etc).

In actuality, the requirement for some of these fish is not salt, but for
hard alkaline water (and sodium chloride does not make water 'hard').
For example, the Rift lakes have no significant sodium chloride in the
water, but they are very hard and at a pH of 7.6 to 9.1.

Livebearers and brackish water fish can reasonably be said to benefit
from some salt as they evolved in freshwater which was in close proximity
to marine conditions, so they were either always somewhat influenced
(livebearers, esp. Mollies)) or they have life stages which are in marine
conditions (brackish fishes).

So my question is (1) do Goldfish and/or Koi naturally come from
salt-free hardwater environments (like some of the African cichlids), or
did they have an *evolutionary* history in proximity to sodium chloride
(natural salt).

And.. (2) is the practice of keeping them in salt becoming universal
enough that they will develop a dependence and suffer without it? I
already see this with Guppies and it's spreading to other livebearers.
Currently, I know that I can keep goldfish in soft neutral salt-free
water with little concern, but is this changing with the breeding
techniques being followed (of using hot saline conditions to breed &
raise them).

TIA
--
www.NetMax.tk

I know that I can keep goldfish in soft neutral salt-free
water with little concern, but is this changing with the breeding
techniques being followed (of using hot saline conditions to breed &
raise them).

The original use for treatment still holds true but a daily use is voodoo.
Sodium is not necessary in goldfish other than trace amounts.
I'm curious about the above breeding techniques; what temp is hot and what
concentration is saline?

"BErney1014" wrote in message
...
I know that I can keep goldfish in soft neutral salt-free
water with little concern, but is this changing with the breeding
techniques being followed (of using hot saline conditions to breed &
raise them).
snip

I'm curious about the above breeding techniques; what temp is hot and
what
concentration is saline?

I work with a network of wholesalers, distributors and transhippers, so
you would think that this information would be readily available, but
it's not. Breeding and grow-out conditions are proprietary secrets.
Once, when I asked about temperature, I was told it varies, however when
I was combating a disease, one importer told me to put the Goldfish at
85F. When I questioned this, I was told that it would be no problem as
they are raised in that temperature (they grow faster and there are less
diseases). Another time, when I asked about salt, I was vaguely told
that whatever quantity I used would be fine (I got the feeling that
whatever concentration I used would not be as high as what that
particular buyer's breeder was already using). This is why I'm
researching to see what conditions are most beneficial to the fish
species (as opposed to the fish farmers).

The situation with livebearers, particularly Guppies has already gone too
far (imo). Many go sickly after a few weeks of being put into
freshwater. I only have one importer who occasionally has 'freshwater'
Guppies for sale. There should really be some type of a governing body
representing the industry (and hobbyists), to promote standards which
prevent the use of conditions which are short sighted. Local breeders
will need to pick up Guppy production, as is already done for Angelfish
and to an extent, Discus, but we cannot be expected to 'rescue' every
species the mass-producers mess up.

I'd better stop before I'm on a soapbox, and go back to gathering factual
data, ie:

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...atus%20auratus
demersal; freshwater; pH range: 6.0 - 8.0; dH range: 5.0 - 19.0 ; depth
range - 10 m
climate: subtropical; 0 - 41°C (32-105°F); 53°N - 22°N
Inhabit rivers, lakes, ponds and ditches with stagnant or slow-flowing
water.... They live better in cold water.... Maximum recorded salinity is
17 ppt, but unable to withstand prolonged exposure above 15 ppt.

So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?
--
www.NetMax.tk

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:29:53 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

(snip)

I'd better stop before I'm on a soapbox, and go back to gathering factual
data, ie:

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...atus%20auratus
demersal; freshwater; pH range: 6.0 - 8.0; dH range: 5.0 - 19.0 ; depth
range - 10 m
climate: subtropical; 0 - 41°C (32-105°F); 53°N - 22°N
Inhabit rivers, lakes, ponds and ditches with stagnant or slow-flowing
water.... They live better in cold water.... Maximum recorded salinity is
17 ppt, but unable to withstand prolonged exposure above 15 ppt.

So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?


If a liter is 1000 grams, then 15 grams of salt would be 15 ppt, no?

I just weighed some Morton's rock salt, a tablespoon measured from 16
to 19 grams, depending on how it rounded off when I gently shook it.

A US gallon is 3.78533 liters.

A British gallon is 4.5459631 liters ( of maybe liters, in this case.)

Then there is the problem, if we take a liter of water (volume) which
weighs 1000 grams (at some temperature) and add 15 grams of salt, the
mix will now weigh 1015 grams, so we could say that we have 15 parts
per 1015, rather than ppt. I believe the volume will shrink when the
salt is added, that's a memory from way back when.

So, one tablespoon of salt (rock salt) per liter, of 37 tablespoons
for a 10 gallons tank. That's a lot of salt.

Granulated salt comes in about 19 grams per tablespoon in my
weighings. I thought it would be more, that it would pack more
densely than rock salt.

Hain Pure Foods sea salt, for what it's worth. Harder to get back
into the container as well.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

"Charles" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:29:53 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

(snip)

I'd better stop before I'm on a soapbox, and go back to gathering
factual
data, ie:


http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...me=Carassius&s
peciesname=auratus%20auratus
demersal; freshwater; pH range: 6.0 - 8.0; dH range: 5.0 - 19.0 ;
depth
range - 10 m
climate: subtropical; 0 - 41°C (32-105°F); 53°N - 22°N
Inhabit rivers, lakes, ponds and ditches with stagnant or slow-flowing
water.... They live better in cold water.... Maximum recorded salinity
is
17 ppt, but unable to withstand prolonged exposure above 15 ppt.

So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?


If a liter is 1000 grams, then 15 grams of salt would be 15 ppt, no?

I just weighed some Morton's rock salt, a tablespoon measured from 16
to 19 grams, depending on how it rounded off when I gently shook it.

A US gallon is 3.78533 liters.

A British gallon is 4.5459631 liters ( of maybe liters, in this case.)

Then there is the problem, if we take a liter of water (volume) which
weighs 1000 grams (at some temperature) and add 15 grams of salt, the
mix will now weigh 1015 grams, so we could say that we have 15 parts
per 1015, rather than ppt. I believe the volume will shrink when the
salt is added, that's a memory from way back when.

So, one tablespoon of salt (rock salt) per liter, of 37 tablespoons
for a 10 gallons tank. That's a lot of salt.

Granulated salt comes in about 19 grams per tablespoon in my
weighings. I thought it would be more, that it would pack more
densely than rock salt.

Hain Pure Foods sea salt, for what it's worth. Harder to get back
into the container as well.

So for 5 gallons, Ingrid gets 3 teaspoons and you get 18-1/2 tablespoons
(or 55.5 teaspoons) - but your methology was far more entertaining ;~).
The first sounds very low while the latter sounds quite high (but it's
easy to critique when it's someone else's work).

Assuming both you and Ingrid are in the states, the US teaspoon is 4.93ml
(the UK teaspoon is 3.63ml) and the US tablespoon is 14.79ml (UK
tablespoon is 14.5ml). Five US gallons is 18.93 litres (I'm too old to
be a big fan of metric, but in this case, I think ml and litres will be
our friend ;~).

So that's 14.79ml versus 273.62ml (into 18.93 l), or based on 1000 litres
(to get ppt), thats
..01479 litres x 52.86 = 0.781 ppt
..27362 litres x 52.86 = 14.45 ppt

14.45ppt (if this is correct) works out to 11.1 teaspoons per US gallon.

Charles, your calculation uses a grams to ml assumption, and also I would
think that a salt ppt refers to a liquid concentration, perhaps based on
salt-saturated water at .15%, or perhaps on molecular weights ? *I* have
no idea how to do this properly, and my confidence in your answers is not
being inspired either ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:47:19 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

"Charles" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:29:53 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

(snip)

I'd better stop before I'm on a soapbox, and go back to gathering
factual
data, ie:


http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...me=Carassius&s
peciesname=auratus%20auratus
demersal; freshwater; pH range: 6.0 - 8.0; dH range: 5.0 - 19.0 ;
depth
range - 10 m
climate: subtropical; 0 - 41°C (32-105°F); 53°N - 22°N
Inhabit rivers, lakes, ponds and ditches with stagnant or slow-flowing
water.... They live better in cold water.... Maximum recorded salinity
is
17 ppt, but unable to withstand prolonged exposure above 15 ppt.

So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?


If a liter is 1000 grams, then 15 grams of salt would be 15 ppt, no?

I just weighed some Morton's rock salt, a tablespoon measured from 16
to 19 grams, depending on how it rounded off when I gently shook it.

A US gallon is 3.78533 liters.

A British gallon is 4.5459631 liters ( of maybe liters, in this case.)

Then there is the problem, if we take a liter of water (volume) which
weighs 1000 grams (at some temperature) and add 15 grams of salt, the
mix will now weigh 1015 grams, so we could say that we have 15 parts
per 1015, rather than ppt. I believe the volume will shrink when the
salt is added, that's a memory from way back when.

So, one tablespoon of salt (rock salt) per liter, of 37 tablespoons
for a 10 gallons tank. That's a lot of salt.

Granulated salt comes in about 19 grams per tablespoon in my
weighings. I thought it would be more, that it would pack more
densely than rock salt.

Hain Pure Foods sea salt, for what it's worth. Harder to get back
into the container as well.

So for 5 gallons, Ingrid gets 3 teaspoons and you get 18-1/2 tablespoons
(or 55.5 teaspoons) - but your methology was far more entertaining ;~).
The first sounds very low while the latter sounds quite high (but it's
easy to critique when it's someone else's work).

Assuming both you and Ingrid are in the states, the US teaspoon is 4.93ml
(the UK teaspoon is 3.63ml) and the US tablespoon is 14.79ml (UK
tablespoon is 14.5ml). Five US gallons is 18.93 litres (I'm too old to
be a big fan of metric, but in this case, I think ml and litres will be
our friend ;~).

So that's 14.79ml versus 273.62ml (into 18.93 l), or based on 1000 litres
(to get ppt), thats
.01479 litres x 52.86 = 0.781 ppt
.27362 litres x 52.86 = 14.45 ppt

14.45ppt (if this is correct) works out to 11.1 teaspoons per US gallon.

Charles, your calculation uses a grams to ml assumption, and also I would
think that a salt ppt refers to a liquid concentration, perhaps based on
salt-saturated water at .15%, or perhaps on molecular weights ? *I* have
no idea how to do this properly, and my confidence in your answers is not
being inspired either ;~)


Yes, we are throwing around mass, weight, and volume just as if they
could be interchanged.

for molecular weights just add up the atomic weights for each
molecule.

Weights for the elements can be found he

http://www.chem.qmw.ac.uk/iupac/AtWt/

among other places. Thus water, H2O would be about 18, salt, NaCl
about 58.3

Those numbers would be used for calculating molar or molal solutions,
but ppt is just parts of salt in parts of water, as far as I know.

Post a query to sci.chem, there are plenty of smart people there, and
some strange ones as well.

I was trying to do the calculations for the 15 ppt salt, the
survivable dose, and not at all recommended. I personally don't add
salt as a routine, I did it once for a fish that was recovering from
surgery at the direction of the vet. I think my water has enough
stuff in it already.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

More info he

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html#kh


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

% is grams per 100 ml. low level salt is 0.1% or approximately 1 tablespoon rock
salt per 5 gallons of water, or 0.9lb per 100 gallons of water. Ingrid

Charles wrote:
If a liter is 1000 grams, then 15 grams of salt would be 15 ppt, no?

I just weighed some Morton's rock salt, a tablespoon measured from 16
to 19 grams, depending on how it rounded off when I gently shook it.

A US gallon is 3.78533 liters.

A British gallon is 4.5459631 liters ( of maybe liters, in this case.)

Then there is the problem, if we take a liter of water (volume) which
weighs 1000 grams (at some temperature) and add 15 grams of salt, the
mix will now weigh 1015 grams, so we could say that we have 15 parts
per 1015, rather than ppt. I believe the volume will shrink when the
salt is added, that's a memory from way back when.

So, one tablespoon of salt (rock salt) per liter, of 37 tablespoons
for a 10 gallons tank. That's a lot of salt.

Granulated salt comes in about 19 grams per tablespoon in my
weighings. I thought it would be more, that it would pack more
densely than rock salt.

Hain Pure Foods sea salt, for what it's worth. Harder to get back
into the container as well.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

0.15% ... about 3 teaspoons per 5 gallons. 0.9lbs per 100 gallons. Ingrid

"NetMax" wrote:
So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Seems very low Ingrid. I already use one cup of salt into a 60g tank
which is 4 teaspoons per 5 gallons.
--
www.NetMax.tk

wrote in message
...
0.15% ... about 3 teaspoons per 5 gallons. 0.9lbs per 100 gallons.
Ingrid

"NetMax" wrote:
So how many ml per litre is 15 ppt (or US teaspoons per US gallon)?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.