Re: Pond Guard vs roofing liner - Firestone's answer!

[Phyllis and Jim Hurley]

Thanks for the homework, Greg! We are in your debt.

It is interesting to hear that there is a difference in the processing. I
am also interested to see that there was no statement that the roofing
material would hurt the fish...altho he did say it would take several years
for the leaching process to be a problem. We will watch with interest!

I note that our roofing lines does not seem to inhibit growth of algae! or
other pond plants. There is also no visible effect on the fish. I am glad
if pondguard is cured for potable situation standards. I still have
significant questions about whether roff guard may not be equally effective
for fish ponds.

Fot the price diffefrence and no visible effect difference difference, I am
still satisfied with the roof guard. Phyllis and I will have to monitor
what happens as our roofguard ages further.

J

--
____________________________________________
Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
www.jogathon.net
See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
"Gregory Young" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all:
> To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
whether
> or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
> line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today in my
> "official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
> I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions, who
> referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
> Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before they
> would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
> generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
> The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
> between the 2 liners:
> 1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets) another
NG
> reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
> Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential hazards of
> their products along with the general type of material, physical,
chemical,
> etc properties, etc.
> They are not required to list individual components as long as any
potential
> properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
> processes and product lines are patent protected.
> The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are not.
> In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product identification
> section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured rubber
> material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet. Why?
> .. read on.
> 2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
> chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
identify
> the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
add
> plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
> 3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets rigid
> specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are not
> affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water based on
> its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
> warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the same
> plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this fashion.
> There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to inhibit
> chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected this
> would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
> 4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use. As
the
> chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
out."
> 5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
curing
> process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
> chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated they
> do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material coming
> off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a waste
of
> $$.
> Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was shared.
> 6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in a
> potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
what
> would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
> material".
> Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That is
one
> product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
above
> statements to other companies.
> Happy ponding,
> Greg
>
>
>
>

[Sam Hopkins]

Maybe the pond with crazy water that's killing goldfish in 10 minutes was
made with Rubbergard....

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" > wrote in
message .. .
> Thanks for the homework, Greg! We are in your debt.
>
> It is interesting to hear that there is a difference in the processing. I
> am also interested to see that there was no statement that the roofing
> material would hurt the fish...altho he did say it would take several
years
> for the leaching process to be a problem. We will watch with interest!
>
> I note that our roofing lines does not seem to inhibit growth of algae! or
> other pond plants. There is also no visible effect on the fish. I am
glad
> if pondguard is cured for potable situation standards. I still have
> significant questions about whether roff guard may not be equally
effective
> for fish ponds.
>
> Fot the price diffefrence and no visible effect difference difference, I
am
> still satisfied with the roof guard. Phyllis and I will have to monitor
> what happens as our roofguard ages further.
>
> J
>
> --
> ____________________________________________
> Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
> www.jogathon.net
> See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
> "Gregory Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi all:
> > To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
> whether
> > or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
> > line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today in
my
> > "official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
> > I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions, who
> > referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
> > Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before
they
> > would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
> > generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
> > The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
> > between the 2 liners:
> > 1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets) another
> NG
> > reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
> > Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential hazards
of
> > their products along with the general type of material, physical,
> chemical,
> > etc properties, etc.
> > They are not required to list individual components as long as any
> potential
> > properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
> > processes and product lines are patent protected.
> > The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
not.
> > In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
identification
> > section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
rubber
> > material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
Why?
> > .. read on.
> > 2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
> > chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
> identify
> > the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
> add
> > plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
> > 3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets rigid
> > specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are
not
> > affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water based
on
> > its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
> > warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the
same
> > plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this
fashion.
> > There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to
inhibit
> > chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected this
> > would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
> > 4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use. As
> the
> > chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
> out."
> > 5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
> curing
> > process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
> > chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated
they
> > do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material
coming
> > off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a waste
> of
> > $$.
> > Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was
shared.
> > 6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in a
> > potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
> what
> > would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
> > material".
> > Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That is
> one
> > product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
> above
> > statements to other companies.
> > Happy ponding,
> > Greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Phyllis and Jim Hurley]

Could be. Whose pond was that? Might be worth a small experiment to see if
it happens under controlled circumstances...like put a rosey red in an
aquarium, be sure it is OK, add roofing liner, see what happens.

Hmmmm I can do that with gambusia! I think I will.

I'll let you know.

J

--
____________________________________________
Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
www.jogathon.net
See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
"Sam Hopkins" > wrote in message
.. .
> Maybe the pond with crazy water that's killing goldfish in 10 minutes was
> made with Rubbergard....
>
> "Phyllis and Jim Hurley" > wrote in
> message .. .
> > Thanks for the homework, Greg! We are in your debt.
> >
> > It is interesting to hear that there is a difference in the processing.
I
> > am also interested to see that there was no statement that the roofing
> > material would hurt the fish...altho he did say it would take several
> years
> > for the leaching process to be a problem. We will watch with interest!
> >
> > I note that our roofing lines does not seem to inhibit growth of algae!
or
> > other pond plants. There is also no visible effect on the fish. I am
> glad
> > if pondguard is cured for potable situation standards. I still have
> > significant questions about whether roff guard may not be equally
> effective
> > for fish ponds.
> >
> > Fot the price diffefrence and no visible effect difference difference, I
> am
> > still satisfied with the roof guard. Phyllis and I will have to monitor
> > what happens as our roofguard ages further.
> >
> > J
> >
> > --
> > ____________________________________________
> > Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
> > www.jogathon.net
> > See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
> > "Gregory Young" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hi all:
> > > To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
> > whether
> > > or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone
Rubbergard
> > > line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today
in
> my
> > > "official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
> > > I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions,
who
> > > referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
> > > Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before
> they
> > > would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
> > > generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
> > > The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided
difference"
> > > between the 2 liners:
> > > 1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets)
another
> > NG
> > > reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
> > > Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential
hazards
> of
> > > their products along with the general type of material, physical,
> > chemical,
> > > etc properties, etc.
> > > They are not required to list individual components as long as any
> > potential
> > > properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
> > > processes and product lines are patent protected.
> > > The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
> not.
> > > In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
> identification
> > > section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
> rubber
> > > material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
> Why?
> > > .. read on.
> > > 2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds
certain
> > > chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
> > identify
> > > the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some"
companies
> > add
> > > plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
> > > 3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets
rigid
> > > specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are
> not
> > > affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water
based
> on
> > > its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
> > > warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the
> same
> > > plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this
> fashion.
> > > There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to
> inhibit
> > > chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected
this
> > > would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
> > > 4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use.
As
> > the
> > > chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
> > out."
> > > 5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
> > curing
> > > process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
> > > chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated
> they
> > > do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material
> coming
> > > off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a
waste
> > of
> > > $$.
> > > Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was
> shared.
> > > 6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in
a
> > > potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
> > what
> > > would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
> > > material".
> > > Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That
is
> > one
> > > product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
> > above
> > > statements to other companies.
> > > Happy ponding,
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Gregory Young]

Sounds good Jim..
Let us know how it goes!
It's like many things in life.. we all live with pollutants, to varying
degrees, most of the time. Some of us react to them(ie environmental asthma,
certain immune mediated disease, etc), some do not. Fish may/may not be
affected to chemicals that may leach out in time.
Plants similarly may/may not be affected.
Again, he did not tell me their particular brand of liner had anything added
to inhibit plant growth (ie moss), but he wouldn't be specific on that
point, even when I pressed him..
Happy ponding,
Greg


--


"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" > wrote in
message .. .
> Thanks for the homework, Greg! We are in your debt.
>
> It is interesting to hear that there is a difference in the processing. I
> am also interested to see that there was no statement that the roofing
> material would hurt the fish...altho he did say it would take several
years
> for the leaching process to be a problem. We will watch with interest!
>
> I note that our roofing lines does not seem to inhibit growth of algae! or
> other pond plants. There is also no visible effect on the fish. I am
glad
> if pondguard is cured for potable situation standards. I still have
> significant questions about whether roff guard may not be equally
effective
> for fish ponds.
>
> Fot the price diffefrence and no visible effect difference difference, I
am
> still satisfied with the roof guard. Phyllis and I will have to monitor
> what happens as our roofguard ages further.
>
> J
>
> --
> ____________________________________________
> Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
> www.jogathon.net
> See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
> "Gregory Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi all:
> > To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
> whether
> > or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
> > line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today in
my
> > "official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
> > I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions, who
> > referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
> > Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before
they
> > would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
> > generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
> > The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
> > between the 2 liners:
> > 1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets) another
> NG
> > reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
> > Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential hazards
of
> > their products along with the general type of material, physical,
> chemical,
> > etc properties, etc.
> > They are not required to list individual components as long as any
> potential
> > properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
> > processes and product lines are patent protected.
> > The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
not.
> > In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
identification
> > section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
rubber
> > material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
Why?
> > .. read on.
> > 2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
> > chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
> identify
> > the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
> add
> > plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
> > 3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets rigid
> > specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are
not
> > affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water based
on
> > its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
> > warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the
same
> > plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this
fashion.
> > There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to
inhibit
> > chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected this
> > would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
> > 4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use. As
> the
> > chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
> out."
> > 5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
> curing
> > process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
> > chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated
they
> > do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material
coming
> > off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a waste
> of
> > $$.
> > Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was
shared.
> > 6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in a
> > potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
> what
> > would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
> > material".
> > Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That is
> one
> > product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
> above
> > statements to other companies.
> > Happy ponding,
> > Greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Gregory Young]

Interesting Rich..
I didn't think of the antioxidant compounds, figuring the roofing liner
would be covered by shingles, providing some level of protection, once the
shingles seal in....
I was trying to establish if they added any low level herbicides, which I
have heard from various contractors that some roofing liners have.
I could not get an answer to that, other than he acknowledged some do...
Again, thanks for the wonderful hospitality you and Donna shared with us
while we were in Va!
I am going to send you the pics I promised, once I get caught up.
Had a series of problems (some major) when I got home..
Should have known Murphy hits whenever I leave for even a short vacation!
1 of the 6 left to resolve, then I can start playing again.
The 8 koi look very happy with their new home, and the electric fencing has
done the trick with the mink.. at least so far.
Greg

--


"RichToyBox" > wrote in message
news:ote1b.170569$Oz4.43694@rwcrnsc54...
>
> "Gregory Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi all:
> > The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
> > between the 2 liners:
> > The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
not.
> > In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
identification
> > section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
rubber
> > material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
Why?
>
> All rubber products have to be cured, (vulcanized), but the method of cure
> may be different. Some of the rubber products are cured by microwave,
some
> by brine solution, some by heated form, but the heat has to be there for
> some time for the molecules to chemically bond, to give the properties
> desired, such as tensile strength, hardness, elongation.
>
> > 2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
> > chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
> identify
> > the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
> add
> > plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
>
> I suspect the additional chemicals used in the roofing liner, that would
not
> be needed in pond liner is antioxidants. The roofing would be subject to
> ozone in the atmosphere, that the pond would not be subjected to. I have
> seen oils and waxes used as antioxidants, and both will migrate to the
> surface of the rubber sample during ozone testing. If insufficient
amounts
> are present, the rubber cracks like old tires on a parked car. Whether
> these would be toxic or not, I don't know.
> --
> RichToyBox
> http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
>
>
>
> >.
> > Happy ponding,
> > Greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Phyllis and Jim Hurley]

BErney,

How did you test the 'one of each' that you bought? Maybe my experiment is
not needed!

I don't question that they may do some different things to the roof liner,
but I am not at all convinced that the difference makes a difference for
fish.

Did you find any difference at all?

Jim



--
____________________________________________
Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
www.jogathon.net
See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
"BErney1014" > wrote in message
...
> >To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
whether
> >or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
> >line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today
>
> I did the same thing - 6 years ago. I forget the guy I spoke with. There
was a
> change in formulation for the UV/mold/fungus etc. that was reported to
kill
> fish quickly. Firestone knew about the stories and their marketing was
that it
> wouldn't happen with the pondguard. I have no idea if the stories were
> substantiated. The bottom line was the pond version didn't have the same
> additives the roofing version needed. He was unable to give straight
forward
> info due to the newsgroup claiming the only difference was the white paint
on
> the pondguard logo vs. the batch codes on the roofing membrane. The
newsgroup
> was of the opinion Firestone was breaking the law charging different
prices for
> the same material. The newsgroup (this one) caused Firestone to get ****ed
and
> they stopped talking.
> I bought one of each. No difference in performance. No dead fish. I was
faxed
> the MSD sheets too and they were not helpful.
> The only liner to ever spring a leak was the pondguard. ;-)
>

[Gregory Young]

The referenced link still brings you back to the same MSD sheets, that were
posted by another before. Firestone is not going to identify how the 2
materials differ as far as potability/fish safety, other than what I posted
above (after my discussion with them).
Now that I hear about the legal issues that may have been thrown at them in
the past, I can understand why they are reticent, at least from their
viewpoint.
Happy ponding,
Greg
--


"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I came across this link for Firestone.
>
>
>
> Water feature Liner comparison
>
>
> http://www.firestonebpco.com/specialty_products/index.htm
>
> "Gregory Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi all:
> > To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
> whether
> > or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
> > line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today in
my
> > "official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
> > I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions, who
> > referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
> > Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before
they
> > would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
> > generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
> > The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
> > between the 2 liners:
> > 1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets) another
> NG
> > reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
> > Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential hazards
of
> > their products along with the general type of material, physical,
> chemical,
> > etc properties, etc.
> > They are not required to list individual components as long as any
> potential
> > properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
> > processes and product lines are patent protected.
> > The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
not.
> > In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
identification
> > section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
rubber
> > material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
Why?
> > .. read on.
> > 2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
> > chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
> identify
> > the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
> add
> > plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
> > 3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets rigid
> > specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are
not
> > affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water based
on
> > its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
> > warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the
same
> > plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this
fashion.
> > There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to
inhibit
> > chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected this
> > would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
> > 4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use. As
> the
> > chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
> out."
> > 5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
> curing
> > process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
> > chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated
they
> > do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material
coming
> > off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a waste
> of
> > $$.
> > Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was
shared.
> > 6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in a
> > potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
> what
> > would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
> > material".
> > Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That is
> one
> > product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
> above
> > statements to other companies.
> > Happy ponding,
> > Greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Shane Kennedy]

how much cheaper is the roofing liner compared to the pond liner?

[Theron]

On 25 Aug 2003 08:38:03 -0700, (Shane
Kennedy) wrote:

>how much cheaper is the roofing liner compared to the pond liner?
I just checked prices on the web and found that a 20x50 PondGard liner
would cost $385.00 plus shipping. It weighs 310 lbs. Or from another
place $562.00 plus shipping.
I can get Firestone roofing rubber in the same size from a local 'big
box' home improvement store for $289.00 with no shipping.

[Shane Kennedy]

where can i find cheap roofing liner online
i've found countless online pond liner dealers
but am having troubles finding the roofing material
i need 2x 50x100' rolls, which i probably won't find @ the local bigbox
thx
sk

[Gregory Young]

Let's see:
$385 plus shipping. I just ordered 2 rolls of 30 x 50 liner that went 474
pounds each, and paid $110 in shipping. Using that ballpark, it would be
about $55 per 475 - 500 # shipping from that company to my zone.
$385 plus $50 is $435.
$289 for the other rubber material, plus 8% tax comes to $312.12
I would save $122.88, which is considerable!
In my case however that savings is a little less the price of one of my
juvenile Koi, and I have more than one to worry about.
I would not want to skimp on the liner, esp. after my conversation with
Firestone, and risk future loss of my koi when they are larger and worth
considerably more in a few years, (both financially and emotionally).
GF, or "regular" American Koi become pets, which you wouldn't want to lose,
even if less costly.
Also have torn up one improperly (commercially installed) pond once due to a
liner issue, I would never, ever, want to go through that again!!
I am reminded of the old adage "penny wise, pound foolish".
But, each to their own!
Happy ponding,
Greg
PS Because some have had no problems with a non-certified product, doesn't
assure that you may/may not.
The real take home message is despite some of the info. posted in the NG,
there ARE manufacturing differences in the 2 Firestone products (PondGard vs
Rubbergard (roofing rubber)), which I confirmed in talking to Firestone
directly.
If folks feel this is not significant, compared to the initial savings they
will get by using the non certified product, that's up to them. Caveat
emptor.



"Theron" > wrote in message
...
> On 25 Aug 2003 08:38:03 -0700, (Shane
> Kennedy) wrote:
>
> >how much cheaper is the roofing liner compared to the pond liner?
> I just checked prices on the web and found that a 20x50 PondGard liner
> would cost $385.00 plus shipping. It weighs 310 lbs. Or from another
> place $562.00 plus shipping.
> I can get Firestone roofing rubber in the same size from a local 'big
> box' home improvement store for $289.00 with no shipping.

[Andrew Burgess]

"Gregory Young" > writes:

>$385 plus shipping. I just ordered 2 rolls of 30 x 50 liner that went 474
>pounds each, and paid $110 in shipping. Using that ballpark, it would be
>about $55 per 475 - 500 # shipping from that company to my zone.
>$385 plus $50 is $435.
>$289 for the other rubber material, plus 8% tax comes to $312.12
>I would save $122.88, which is considerable!

You do have to go get the roofing liner. They'll probably help you load
it. Not worth $122 maybe but something...

GY (Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:56:23 GMT):
>30x50 liner... that went 474 pounds each

So why not permalon and you won't have to worry about leaching at all.
And man, it's a heck of a lot lighter than that. 474 pounds... I can
roll 500 lbs, but it could roll me (flat), too. 30x20 permalon I could
pick up and toss around, easy.

I've got pond gard up in the filter but the rest is permalon, factory
direct at $0.22 sq ft (1997).

http://www.reefindustries.com/

http://www.reefindustries.com/php/pondline.php

Houston
--
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`' `'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
SLOTHEAD

[Andrew Burgess]

"Gregory Young" > writes:

>Permalon is the way to go, but when I priced it, it was more than EPDM.
>Permalon is HDPE, and is one of the strongest, lightest liner materials
>available for use today. Also has great UV resistance. It has a 20 yr plus
>guarantee as well.

Can you use the pipe boot trick with Permalon -- is it stretchy enough?

Are you sure about the guarantee, I thought it was 1 year. Not that I think
either will wear out.

[Nedra]

Contact Kenco for Permalon. I don't have his url
handy ... someone else post it, please?

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Gregory Young" > wrote in message
t...
> Yes, you can use a pipe boot with Permalon.
> Remember if you use adhesives with permalon to not use rubber adhesives
> (EPDM type!)
> Material guarantee is 20 plus years, depending on where you get it.
> I have never heard of a one year guarantee, except perhaps in commercially
> installed ponds, (where they would go broke if they guaranteed all their
> ponds for 20 years, as their guarantee would require them coming back and
> fixing them for the owners).
> With a material guarantee, the manufacturer/distributor simply replaces
the
> warranted material with another piece. The installation is up to the
owner!
> Happy ponding,
> Greg
> --
>
>
> "Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Gregory Young" > writes:
> >
> > >Permalon is the way to go, but when I priced it, it was more than EPDM.
> > >Permalon is HDPE, and is one of the strongest, lightest liner materials
> > >available for use today. Also has great UV resistance. It has a 20 yr
> plus
> > >guarantee as well.
> >
> > Can you use the pipe boot trick with Permalon -- is it stretchy enough?
> >
> > Are you sure about the guarantee, I thought it was 1 year. Not that I
> think
> > either will wear out.
> >
>
>

[Nedra]

Contact Kenco for Permalon. I don't have his url
handy ... someone else post it, please?

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Gregory Young" > wrote in message
t...
> Yes, you can use a pipe boot with Permalon.
> Remember if you use adhesives with permalon to not use rubber adhesives
> (EPDM type!)
> Material guarantee is 20 plus years, depending on where you get it.
> I have never heard of a one year guarantee, except perhaps in commercially
> installed ponds, (where they would go broke if they guaranteed all their
> ponds for 20 years, as their guarantee would require them coming back and
> fixing them for the owners).
> With a material guarantee, the manufacturer/distributor simply replaces
the
> warranted material with another piece. The installation is up to the
owner!
> Happy ponding,
> Greg
> --
>
>
> "Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Gregory Young" > writes:
> >
> > >Permalon is the way to go, but when I priced it, it was more than EPDM.
> > >Permalon is HDPE, and is one of the strongest, lightest liner materials
> > >available for use today. Also has great UV resistance. It has a 20 yr
> plus
> > >guarantee as well.
> >
> > Can you use the pipe boot trick with Permalon -- is it stretchy enough?
> >
> > Are you sure about the guarantee, I thought it was 1 year. Not that I
> think
> > either will wear out.
> >
>
>

[Nedra]

Pipe boot... the index is on left side ;-)

http://www.geocities.com/bickal2000/pond.htm

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"pixi" > wrote in message
...
> What is a pipe boot?
>
>
> "Gregory Young" > wrote in message
> t...
> > Yes, you can use a pipe boot with Permalon.
> > Remember if you use adhesives with permalon to not use rubber adhesives
> > (EPDM type!)
> > Material guarantee is 20 plus years, depending on where you get it.
> > I have never heard of a one year guarantee, except perhaps in
commercially
> > installed ponds, (where they would go broke if they guaranteed all their
> > ponds for 20 years, as their guarantee would require them coming back
and
> > fixing them for the owners).
> > With a material guarantee, the manufacturer/distributor simply replaces
> the
> > warranted material with another piece. The installation is up to the
> owner!
> > Happy ponding,
> > Greg
> > --
> >
> >
> > "Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Gregory Young" > writes:
> > >
> > > >Permalon is the way to go, but when I priced it, it was more than
EPDM.
> > > >Permalon is HDPE, and is one of the strongest, lightest liner
materials
> > > >available for use today. Also has great UV resistance. It has a 20 yr
> > plus
> > > >guarantee as well.
> > >
> > > Can you use the pipe boot trick with Permalon -- is it stretchy
enough?
> > >
> > > Are you sure about the guarantee, I thought it was 1 year. Not that I
> > think
> > > either will wear out.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Nedra]

Pipe boot... the index is on left side ;-)

http://www.geocities.com/bickal2000/pond.htm

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"pixi" > wrote in message
...
> What is a pipe boot?
>
>
> "Gregory Young" > wrote in message
> t...
> > Yes, you can use a pipe boot with Permalon.
> > Remember if you use adhesives with permalon to not use rubber adhesives
> > (EPDM type!)
> > Material guarantee is 20 plus years, depending on where you get it.
> > I have never heard of a one year guarantee, except perhaps in
commercially
> > installed ponds, (where they would go broke if they guaranteed all their
> > ponds for 20 years, as their guarantee would require them coming back
and
> > fixing them for the owners).
> > With a material guarantee, the manufacturer/distributor simply replaces
> the
> > warranted material with another piece. The installation is up to the
> owner!
> > Happy ponding,
> > Greg
> > --
> >
> >
> > "Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Gregory Young" > writes:
> > >
> > > >Permalon is the way to go, but when I priced it, it was more than
EPDM.
> > > >Permalon is HDPE, and is one of the strongest, lightest liner
materials
> > > >available for use today. Also has great UV resistance. It has a 20 yr
> > plus
> > > >guarantee as well.
> > >
> > > Can you use the pipe boot trick with Permalon -- is it stretchy
enough?
> > >
> > > Are you sure about the guarantee, I thought it was 1 year. Not that I
> > think
> > > either will wear out.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Andrew Burgess]

~ jan JJsPond.us > writes:

>www.kencofish.com Re: Permalon ~ jan

That's where I got the one year warranty idea.

http://www.kencofish.com/hardgood.htm says:

"1 yr. unconditional warr"

[Andrew Burgess]

~ jan JJsPond.us > writes:

>www.kencofish.com Re: Permalon ~ jan

That's where I got the one year warranty idea.

http://www.kencofish.com/hardgood.htm says:

"1 yr. unconditional warr"

[Nedra]

Andrew,
It took me two readings of Ken's online before I saw
the sentence which, BTW, is in quotes. Therefore, I'm wondering
if the company has this warranty? I've known Ken for
at least 6 years and he errs on the side of giving the liner
away.

I would still go ahead and contact him if I needed
Permalon!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
...
> ~ jan JJsPond.us > writes:
>
> >www.kencofish.com Re: Permalon ~ jan
>
> That's where I got the one year warranty idea.
>
> http://www.kencofish.com/hardgood.htm says:
>
> "1 yr. unconditional warr"
>

[Nedra]

Andrew,
It took me two readings of Ken's online before I saw
the sentence which, BTW, is in quotes. Therefore, I'm wondering
if the company has this warranty? I've known Ken for
at least 6 years and he errs on the side of giving the liner
away.

I would still go ahead and contact him if I needed
Permalon!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
...
> ~ jan JJsPond.us > writes:
>
> >www.kencofish.com Re: Permalon ~ jan
>
> That's where I got the one year warranty idea.
>
> http://www.kencofish.com/hardgood.htm says:
>
> "1 yr. unconditional warr"
>

[Tom La Bron]

Andrew,

The life of the material is based on installation. When I was looking at
Permalon for my 16,000 gallon raceways with a concrete slab bottom and
concrete block sides 1 foot above the ground they would guarantee it for 20
years, but if I put the ponds in ground with liner support and dug the top
part of the liner into the top of the pond with a small bream burying the
top of the liner it would have a life time guarantee.

Come on people if you want information talk to the source. Their URL is
http://www.reefindustries.com , their email is : ,
their address is: Reef Industries, Inc. P.O. Box 750250, Houston, Texas
77275-0250; their Phone is; 713-507-4200, their FAX is : 713-507-4295 and
their 800 number is: 1-800-231-6074.

HTH

Tom L.L.
"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
...
> ~ jan JJsPond.us > writes:
>
> >www.kencofish.com Re: Permalon ~ jan
>
> That's where I got the one year warranty idea.
>
> http://www.kencofish.com/hardgood.htm says:
>
> "1 yr. unconditional warr"
>

[Tom La Bron]

Andrew,

The life of the material is based on installation. When I was looking at
Permalon for my 16,000 gallon raceways with a concrete slab bottom and
concrete block sides 1 foot above the ground they would guarantee it for 20
years, but if I put the ponds in ground with liner support and dug the top
part of the liner into the top of the pond with a small bream burying the
top of the liner it would have a life time guarantee.

Come on people if you want information talk to the source. Their URL is
http://www.reefindustries.com , their email is : ,
their address is: Reef Industries, Inc. P.O. Box 750250, Houston, Texas
77275-0250; their Phone is; 713-507-4200, their FAX is : 713-507-4295 and
their 800 number is: 1-800-231-6074.

HTH

Tom L.L.
"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
...
> ~ jan JJsPond.us > writes:
>
> >www.kencofish.com Re: Permalon ~ jan
>
> That's where I got the one year warranty idea.
>
> http://www.kencofish.com/hardgood.htm says:
>
> "1 yr. unconditional warr"
>