Pond Guard vs roofing liner - Firestone's answer!

Thanks for the homework, Greg! We are in your debt.

It is interesting to hear that there is a difference in the processing. I
am also interested to see that there was no statement that the roofing
material would hurt the fish...altho he did say it would take several years
for the leaching process to be a problem. We will watch with interest!

I note that our roofing lines does not seem to inhibit growth of algae! or
other pond plants. There is also no visible effect on the fish. I am glad
if pondguard is cured for potable situation standards. I still have
significant questions about whether roff guard may not be equally effective
for fish ponds.

Fot the price diffefrence and no visible effect difference difference, I am
still satisfied with the roof guard. Phyllis and I will have to monitor
what happens as our roofguard ages further.

J

--
____________________________________________
Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
www.jogathon.net
See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
"Gregory Young" wrote in message
...
Hi all:
To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
whether
or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today in my
"official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions, who
referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before they
would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
between the 2 liners:
1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets) another
NG
reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential hazards of
their products along with the general type of material, physical,
chemical,
etc properties, etc.
They are not required to list individual components as long as any
potential
properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
processes and product lines are patent protected.
The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are not.
In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product identification
section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured rubber
material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet. Why?
.. read on.
2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
identify
the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
add
plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets rigid
specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are not
affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water based on
its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the same
plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this fashion.
There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to inhibit
chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected this
would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use. As
the
chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
out."
5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
curing
process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated they
do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material coming
off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a waste
of
$$.
Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was shared.
6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in a
potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
what
would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
material".
Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That is
one
product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
above
statements to other companies.
Happy ponding,
Greg

Maybe the pond with crazy water that's killing goldfish in 10 minutes was
made with Rubbergard....

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote in
message .. .
Thanks for the homework, Greg! We are in your debt.

It is interesting to hear that there is a difference in the processing. I
am also interested to see that there was no statement that the roofing
material would hurt the fish...altho he did say it would take several
years
for the leaching process to be a problem. We will watch with interest!

I note that our roofing lines does not seem to inhibit growth of algae! or
other pond plants. There is also no visible effect on the fish. I am
glad
if pondguard is cured for potable situation standards. I still have
significant questions about whether roff guard may not be equally
effective
for fish ponds.

Fot the price diffefrence and no visible effect difference difference, I
am
still satisfied with the roof guard. Phyllis and I will have to monitor
what happens as our roofguard ages further.

J

--
____________________________________________
Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
www.jogathon.net
See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
"Gregory Young" wrote in message
...
Hi all:
To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
whether
or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today in
my
"official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions, who
referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before
they
would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
between the 2 liners:
1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets) another
NG
reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential hazards
of
their products along with the general type of material, physical,
chemical,
etc properties, etc.
They are not required to list individual components as long as any
potential
properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
processes and product lines are patent protected.
The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
not.
In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
identification
section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
rubber
material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
Why?
.. read on.
2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
identify
the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
add
plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets rigid
specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are
not
affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water based
on
its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the
same
plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this
fashion.
There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to
inhibit
chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected this
would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use. As
the
chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
out."
5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
curing
process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated
they
do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material
coming
off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a waste
of
$$.
Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was
shared.
6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in a
potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
what
would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
material".
Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That is
one
product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
above
statements to other companies.
Happy ponding,
Greg

Could be. Whose pond was that? Might be worth a small experiment to see if
it happens under controlled circumstances...like put a rosey red in an
aquarium, be sure it is OK, add roofing liner, see what happens.

Hmmmm I can do that with gambusia! I think I will.

I'll let you know.

J

--
____________________________________________
Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
www.jogathon.net
See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
"Sam Hopkins" wrote in message
.. .
Maybe the pond with crazy water that's killing goldfish in 10 minutes was
made with Rubbergard....

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote in
message .. .
Thanks for the homework, Greg! We are in your debt.

It is interesting to hear that there is a difference in the processing.
I
am also interested to see that there was no statement that the roofing
material would hurt the fish...altho he did say it would take several
years
for the leaching process to be a problem. We will watch with interest!

I note that our roofing lines does not seem to inhibit growth of algae!
or
other pond plants. There is also no visible effect on the fish. I am
glad
if pondguard is cured for potable situation standards. I still have
significant questions about whether roff guard may not be equally
effective
for fish ponds.

Fot the price diffefrence and no visible effect difference difference, I
am
still satisfied with the roof guard. Phyllis and I will have to monitor
what happens as our roofguard ages further.

J

--
____________________________________________
Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
www.jogathon.net
See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
"Gregory Young" wrote in message
...
Hi all:
To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
whether
or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone
Rubbergard
line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today
in
my
"official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions,
who
referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before
they
would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided
difference"
between the 2 liners:
1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets)
another
NG
reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential
hazards
of
their products along with the general type of material, physical,
chemical,
etc properties, etc.
They are not required to list individual components as long as any
potential
properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
processes and product lines are patent protected.
The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
not.
In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
identification
section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
rubber
material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
Why?
.. read on.
2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds
certain
chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
identify
the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some"
companies
add
plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets
rigid
specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are
not
affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water
based
on
its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the
same
plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this
fashion.
There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to
inhibit
chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected
this
would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use.
As
the
chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
out."
5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
curing
process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated
they
do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material
coming
off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a
waste
of
$$.
Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was
shared.
6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in
a
potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
what
would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
material".
Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That
is
one
product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
above
statements to other companies.
Happy ponding,
Greg

Sounds good Jim..
Let us know how it goes!
It's like many things in life.. we all live with pollutants, to varying
degrees, most of the time. Some of us react to them(ie environmental asthma,
certain immune mediated disease, etc), some do not. Fish may/may not be
affected to chemicals that may leach out in time.
Plants similarly may/may not be affected.
Again, he did not tell me their particular brand of liner had anything added
to inhibit plant growth (ie moss), but he wouldn't be specific on that
point, even when I pressed him..
Happy ponding,
Greg


--


"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote in
message .. .
Thanks for the homework, Greg! We are in your debt.

It is interesting to hear that there is a difference in the processing. I
am also interested to see that there was no statement that the roofing
material would hurt the fish...altho he did say it would take several
years
for the leaching process to be a problem. We will watch with interest!

I note that our roofing lines does not seem to inhibit growth of algae! or
other pond plants. There is also no visible effect on the fish. I am
glad
if pondguard is cured for potable situation standards. I still have
significant questions about whether roff guard may not be equally
effective
for fish ponds.

Fot the price diffefrence and no visible effect difference difference, I
am
still satisfied with the roof guard. Phyllis and I will have to monitor
what happens as our roofguard ages further.

J

--
____________________________________________
Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
www.jogathon.net
See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
"Gregory Young" wrote in message
...
Hi all:
To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
whether
or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today in
my
"official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions, who
referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before
they
would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
between the 2 liners:
1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets) another
NG
reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential hazards
of
their products along with the general type of material, physical,
chemical,
etc properties, etc.
They are not required to list individual components as long as any
potential
properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
processes and product lines are patent protected.
The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
not.
In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
identification
section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
rubber
material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
Why?
.. read on.
2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
identify
the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
add
plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets rigid
specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are
not
affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water based
on
its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the
same
plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this
fashion.
There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to
inhibit
chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected this
would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use. As
the
chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
out."
5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
curing
process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated
they
do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material
coming
off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a waste
of
$$.
Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was
shared.
6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in a
potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
what
would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
material".
Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That is
one
product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
above
statements to other companies.
Happy ponding,
Greg

Interesting Rich..
I didn't think of the antioxidant compounds, figuring the roofing liner
would be covered by shingles, providing some level of protection, once the
shingles seal in....
I was trying to establish if they added any low level herbicides, which I
have heard from various contractors that some roofing liners have.
I could not get an answer to that, other than he acknowledged some do...
Again, thanks for the wonderful hospitality you and Donna shared with us
while we were in Va!
I am going to send you the pics I promised, once I get caught up.
Had a series of problems (some major) when I got home..
Should have known Murphy hits whenever I leave for even a short vacation!
1 of the 6 left to resolve, then I can start playing again.
The 8 koi look very happy with their new home, and the electric fencing has
done the trick with the mink.. at least so far.
Greg

--


"RichToyBox" wrote in message
newste1b.170569$Oz4.43694@rwcrnsc54...

"Gregory Young" wrote in message
...
Hi all:
The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
between the 2 liners:
The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
not.
In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
identification
section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
rubber
material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
Why?

All rubber products have to be cured, (vulcanized), but the method of cure
may be different. Some of the rubber products are cured by microwave,
some
by brine solution, some by heated form, but the heat has to be there for
some time for the molecules to chemically bond, to give the properties
desired, such as tensile strength, hardness, elongation.

2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
identify
the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
add
plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.

I suspect the additional chemicals used in the roofing liner, that would
not
be needed in pond liner is antioxidants. The roofing would be subject to
ozone in the atmosphere, that the pond would not be subjected to. I have
seen oils and waxes used as antioxidants, and both will migrate to the
surface of the rubber sample during ozone testing. If insufficient
amounts
are present, the rubber cracks like old tires on a parked car. Whether
these would be toxic or not, I don't know.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html



.
Happy ponding,
Greg

BErney,

How did you test the 'one of each' that you bought? Maybe my experiment is
not needed!

I don't question that they may do some different things to the roof liner,
but I am not at all convinced that the difference makes a difference for
fish.

Did you find any difference at all?

Jim



--
____________________________________________
Check out Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $140+ per jogger) at:
www.jogathon.net
See our pond at: http://www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-jameshurley
"BErney1014" wrote in message
...
To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
whether
or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today

I did the same thing - 6 years ago. I forget the guy I spoke with. There
was a
change in formulation for the UV/mold/fungus etc. that was reported to
kill
fish quickly. Firestone knew about the stories and their marketing was
that it
wouldn't happen with the pondguard. I have no idea if the stories were
substantiated. The bottom line was the pond version didn't have the same
additives the roofing version needed. He was unable to give straight
forward
info due to the newsgroup claiming the only difference was the white paint
on
the pondguard logo vs. the batch codes on the roofing membrane. The
newsgroup
was of the opinion Firestone was breaking the law charging different
prices for
the same material. The newsgroup (this one) caused Firestone to get ****ed
and
they stopped talking.
I bought one of each. No difference in performance. No dead fish. I was
faxed
the MSD sheets too and they were not helpful.
The only liner to ever spring a leak was the pondguard. ;-)

The referenced link still brings you back to the same MSD sheets, that were
posted by another before. Firestone is not going to identify how the 2
materials differ as far as potability/fish safety, other than what I posted
above (after my discussion with them).
Now that I hear about the legal issues that may have been thrown at them in
the past, I can understand why they are reticent, at least from their
viewpoint.
Happy ponding,
Greg
--


"FBCS" wrote in message
...


I came across this link for Firestone.



Water feature Liner comparison


http://www.firestonebpco.com/special...ucts/index.htm

"Gregory Young" wrote in message
...
Hi all:
To settle the discussion (I can't locate the original thread) as to
whether
or not there are differences between roofing liner (Firestone Rubbergard
line), and pond liner (Firestone PondGard), I called Firestone today in
my
"official capacity" with the state to get the straight answer.
I talked first to TH, who could not answer my "detailed" questions, who
referred me to BJ, one of their engineers.
Firestone called me back, to confirm I was who I stated I was, before
they
would go into specifics. I was told the specifics, but can share only
generalities with you in this forum. You make your own decisions..
The bottom line, according to Firestone, there is a "decided difference"
between the 2 liners:
1) I questioned why the MSD sheets (Material Safety Data sheets) another
NG
reader had shared with us comparing the 2 products seemed so similar.
Their answer: Manufacturers are required only to list potential hazards
of
their products along with the general type of material, physical,
chemical,
etc properties, etc.
They are not required to list individual components as long as any
potential
properties of them are included in the above for their product. Their
processes and product lines are patent protected.
The MSD sheets may look similar, according to Firestone, but they are
not.
In fact he said to be sure to notice that under the product
identification
section, the chemical name descriptor, PondGard is listed as "cured
rubber
material", with no similar reference in their roofing line MSD sheet.
Why?
.. read on.
2) Their roofing liner has "additional processing", which "adds certain
chemicals useful to extend the life of the material". He would not
identify
the specific agents added, except to agree with me that "some" companies
add
plant inhibiting compounds to their roofing liner.
3) More importantly, the 2 are "cured differently". PondGard meets rigid
specs. for potable water to "insure Koifish kept in peoples' ponds are
not
affected". In fact this liner could be used to hold potable water based
on
its curing process, although he was very clear that Firestone does NOT
warrant this liner for that purpose! Their roofing liner (made at the
same
plant, and using the same overall equipment) is NOT cured in this
fashion.
There are no provisions in the processing of the roofing liner to
inhibit
chemicals from leaching out of the material, although he projected this
would take at least 3 or 4 years to become an issue.
4) There is nothing to "wash off" of their products, for either use. As
the
chemicals are incorporated into the material, "they can not be washed
out."
5) The difference in the price they charge to dealers is based on the
curing
process of the PondGard, which ensures "there will be no leaching of
chemicals, until its warranted lifespan has been exceeded". He stated
they
do NOT spend the $$ on this curing process, and label some material
coming
off their line as PondGard, and other as Rubbergard. It would be a waste
of
$$.
Dealers clearly have a healthy mark-up on PondGard, from what was
shared.
6) The bottom line, I asked if it were him, and this was to be used in a
potable situation (for fish again, not for drinking water for people),
what
would he do. He stated he would "certainly pay more and get the right
material".
Now you have the facts direct from Firestone, who make PondGard. That is
one
product from one company, so you can not automatically generalize the
above
statements to other companies.
Happy ponding,
Greg

how much cheaper is the roofing liner compared to the pond liner?

On 25 Aug 2003 08:38:03 -0700, (Shane
Kennedy) wrote:

how much cheaper is the roofing liner compared to the pond liner?
I just checked prices on the web and found that a 20x50 PondGard liner
would cost $385.00 plus shipping. It weighs 310 lbs. Or from another
place $562.00 plus shipping.
I can get Firestone roofing rubber in the same size from a local 'big
box' home improvement store for $289.00 with no shipping.

where can i find cheap roofing liner online
i've found countless online pond liner dealers
but am having troubles finding the roofing material
i need 2x 50x100' rolls, which i probably won't find @ the local bigbox
thx
sk