MTS out of control

[Eric Schreiber]

Quite some time ago (a year or more) I was given a handful of Malaysian
Trumpet snails by a local fish store. I counted perhaps a hundred. Most
went into my heavily planted 20 gallon community tank, where they've
done quite well for themselves.

Quite well, indeed.

I estimate I now have several thousand, still in that same 20 gallon
tank. The tank, fish and plants are all quite healthy, and the MTS
certainly aren't hurting anything that I can see. But their population
is extremely out of control.

I can literally see my substrate (Flourite gravel) moving, almost
constantly. Especially in the hour or so before the lights go off. It
probably isn't an exaggeration to say that 1/5 of the volume of my
substrate is actually MTS.

A bit of web searching turns up clown loaches as the best 'natural'
approach to dealing with these snails. I don't expect that they could
wipe the population out, and for that matter, I don't want to wipe the
MTS out - just reduce their numbers a lot.

According to the sites I've read, clown loaches are apparently ok in a
community tank, and will grow fairly slowly.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

Eric Schreiber wrote:

> Quite some time ago (a year or more) I was given a handful of
> Malaysian Trumpet snails by a local fish store. I counted perhaps a
> hundred. Most went into my heavily planted 20 gallon community tank,
> where they've done quite well for themselves.
>
> Quite well, indeed.
>
> I estimate I now have several thousand, still in that same 20 gallon
> tank. The tank, fish and plants are all quite healthy, and the MTS
> certainly aren't hurting anything that I can see. But their population
> is extremely out of control.
>
> I can literally see my substrate (Flourite gravel) moving, almost
> constantly. Especially in the hour or so before the lights go off. It
> probably isn't an exaggeration to say that 1/5 of the volume of my
> substrate is actually MTS.
>
> A bit of web searching turns up clown loaches as the best 'natural'
> approach to dealing with these snails. I don't expect that they could
> wipe the population out, and for that matter, I don't want to wipe the
> MTS out - just reduce their numbers a lot.
>
> According to the sites I've read, clown loaches are apparently ok in a
> community tank, and will grow fairly slowly.

Grrr. Spazzed at my keyboard and sent before I was through. Anyway,
continuing...

I have the following fish in this tank:
Peacock Gudgeon (7)
Fundulopanchax scheeli (3)
Siamese Algae Eater (3)
Bristlenose Pleco (1)
Red-Eyed Tetra (1)
Otocinclus Catfish (1)

Do any of these seem likely to not get along with a pair of clown
loaches? I suspect they would make an acceptable mix. Also, I'm
concerned with size - I'd be aiming to get the two smallest clowns I
could find, but how fast could I expect them to outgrow a 20 gallon,
especially one so well stocked with food? The SAEs already would enjoy
more swimming space (it's coming, but perhaps six months away yet). I
hesitate to get the clowns if they're going to feel cramped in this
tank.

Any comments appreciated.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Dan White]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> >
> > A bit of web searching turns up clown loaches as the best 'natural'
> > approach to dealing with these snails. I don't expect that they could
> > wipe the population out, and for that matter, I don't want to wipe the
> > MTS out - just reduce their numbers a lot.
> >

Not to be a wise guy, but can't you just grab a handful and flush them?

dwhite

[Eric Schreiber]

Dan White wrote:

> Not to be a wise guy, but can't you just grab a handful and flush
> them?

Well, I wouldn't flush them - I don't flush any animal, alive or dead.

But yes, I could scoop out piles of gravel, separate out loads of MTS
and crush them (or whatever) - I'm not squeamish, and a couple handfuls
a day wouldn't be a big effort. But I'd prefer a predator approach, if
for no other reason than I'd rather not waste all that protien that
could make some fish very happy.

Besides, a snail-eating fish would provide an on-going solution,
whereas getting rid of them manually only has a temporary effect.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Mean_Chlorine]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 03:45:42 -0500, "Eric Schreiber" <eric at
ericschreiber dot com> wrote:

>Besides, a snail-eating fish would provide an on-going solution,
>whereas getting rid of them manually only has a temporary effect.

Problem is, a Clown loach is a massive fish. When grown it's the size
and general shape of a loaf of bread. It's also boisterous, and your
other fish are small and timid, and to top it off it's a schooling
fish which isn't happy if kept alone.

There are smaller loaches, and AFAIK they all eat snails, so you may
want to look into those instead. They'll only be able to eat the young
snails, but will eventually dent the population.

Other random thoughts on the subject...
* You get as many MTS's as can be supported by your leftover food. If
you can, see if it is possible to reduce the amount of leftovers
reaching the bottom - at present you are apparently feeding the snails
quite a lot.
* Baited traps. A jar or similar with something tasty inside and holes
large enough for the MTS but not for the fish to pass through, will
help you reduce their numbers.
* Crushing them is more difficult than it sounds. If you're squeamish
and don't want to flush or toss the collected snails in the garbage
alive, freezing them is a good and fairly humane way to kill them.
* With an infestation your size, I'd not recommend using snail-killing
medication - you don't want your tank filled with rotting snails.
* As you've noticed, MTS's aren't actually detrimental to the tank.
They eat algae and leftovers and the eggs of other snails, so they're
largely beneficial. Their chief downside is that they'll also eat fish
eggs.

[Eric Schreiber]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:

> Problem is, a Clown loach is a massive fish. When grown it's the size
> and general shape of a loaf of bread. It's also boisterous, and your
> other fish are small and timid, and to top it off it's a schooling
> fish which isn't happy if kept alone.

I would get a pair if I got any, but I know that they can grow very
large. That's my primary concern. I hadn't realized they were also
potentially disruptive - most of my current fish are pretty placid
(except for the SAEs).

> There are smaller loaches, and AFAIK they all eat snails, so you may
> want to look into those instead. They'll only be able to eat the young
> snails, but will eventually dent the population.

That would be ideal.

> at present you are apparently feeding the snails quite a lot.

Guilty as charged. I almost certainly overfeed. I will try to cut back,
though at this point the damage is done.

I'll look into alternative loach species, and also the trap you
suggested. Thanks.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Dick]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 11:39:10 +0200, Mean_Chlorine
> wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 03:45:42 -0500, "Eric Schreiber" <eric at
>ericschreiber dot com> wrote:
>
>>Besides, a snail-eating fish would provide an on-going solution,
>>whereas getting rid of them manually only has a temporary effect.
>
>Problem is, a Clown loach is a massive fish. When grown it's the size
>and general shape of a loaf of bread. It's also boisterous, and your
>other fish are small and timid, and to top it off it's a schooling
>fish which isn't happy if kept alone.
>
>There are smaller loaches, and AFAIK they all eat snails, so you may
>want to look into those instead. They'll only be able to eat the young
>snails, but will eventually dent the population.
>
>Other random thoughts on the subject...
>* You get as many MTS's as can be supported by your leftover food. If
>you can, see if it is possible to reduce the amount of leftovers
>reaching the bottom - at present you are apparently feeding the snails
>quite a lot.
>* Baited traps. A jar or similar with something tasty inside and holes
>large enough for the MTS but not for the fish to pass through, will
>help you reduce their numbers.
>* Crushing them is more difficult than it sounds. If you're squeamish
>and don't want to flush or toss the collected snails in the garbage
>alive, freezing them is a good and fairly humane way to kill them.
>* With an infestation your size, I'd not recommend using snail-killing
>medication - you don't want your tank filled with rotting snails.
>* As you've noticed, MTS's aren't actually detrimental to the tank.
>They eat algae and leftovers and the eggs of other snails, so they're
>largely beneficial. Their chief downside is that they'll also eat fish
>eggs.


I have two tanks with MTS, both 10 gallons. I accept that they are
beneficial, but they are ugly. I have 3 larger snails, Mystery snail
of some sort, that had survived my Clown Loaches. I moved them to the
10 gallon tanks and I believe the MTS population is way down. I
suppose the Mystery snails have taken food from the MTS, but I also
wonder if the Mystery snails are eating the MTS eggs. I sure enjoy
the Mystery snails a lot more than the MTS.

dick

[W]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> Quite some time ago (a year or more) I was given a handful of Malaysian
> Trumpet snails by a local fish store. I counted perhaps a hundred. Most
> went into my heavily planted 20 gallon community tank, where they've
> done quite well for themselves.
>
> Quite well, indeed.
>
> I estimate I now have several thousand, still in that same 20 gallon
> tank. The tank, fish and plants are all quite healthy, and the MTS
> certainly aren't hurting anything that I can see. But their population
> is extremely out of control.
>
> I can literally see my substrate (Flourite gravel) moving, almost
> constantly. Especially in the hour or so before the lights go off. It
> probably isn't an exaggeration to say that 1/5 of the volume of my
> substrate is actually MTS.
>
> A bit of web searching turns up clown loaches as the best 'natural'
> approach to dealing with these snails. I don't expect that they could
> wipe the population out, and for that matter, I don't want to wipe the
> MTS out - just reduce their numbers a lot.
>
> According to the sites I've read, clown loaches are apparently ok in a
> community tank, and will grow fairly slowly.
>
>
> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

i have a yo-yo loach that eats snails. ive never fed any of my mts to it
but he sucks the mystery snails right out of the shell. i also had a zebra
loach that would do the same. i'm waiting until my mts get bigger before i
use them as food. i started with one in 10 gallons now i have well over a
100, they bread faster than guppies. W.

[RedForeman ©®]

|| I estimate I now have several thousand, still in that same 20 gallon
|| tank. The tank, fish and plants are all quite healthy, and the MTS
|| certainly aren't hurting anything that I can see. But their
|| population is extremely out of control.
||
|| I can literally see my substrate (Flourite gravel) moving, almost
|| constantly. Especially in the hour or so before the lights go off. It
|| probably isn't an exaggeration to say that 1/5 of the volume of my
|| substrate is actually MTS.

Eric, here's an alternative...

Stop feeding for a few days, and the MTS will be almost pavlovian trained..
watch this... After about 4 days, drop some shrimp pellets in one spot, and
the next day about 18hrs later, MOST of your MTS will be on top of that
pellet pile, when they are, use your python tube to suction some/alot/not
all of them out.... I have to do that about 2 times a year and it keeps them
under control...

Algae wafers don't seem to work as well... must be something about the
shrimp pellets...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[axemanchris]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> Quite some time ago (a year or more) I was given a handful of Malaysian
> Trumpet snails by a local fish store. I counted perhaps a hundred. Most
> went into my heavily planted 20 gallon community tank, where they've
> done quite well for themselves.
>
> Quite well, indeed.
>
> I estimate I now have several thousand, still in that same 20 gallon
> tank. The tank, fish and plants are all quite healthy, and the MTS
> certainly aren't hurting anything that I can see. But their population
> is extremely out of control.
>
> I can literally see my substrate (Flourite gravel) moving, almost
> constantly. Especially in the hour or so before the lights go off. It
> probably isn't an exaggeration to say that 1/5 of the volume of my
> substrate is actually MTS.
>
> A bit of web searching turns up clown loaches as the best 'natural'
> approach to dealing with these snails. I don't expect that they could
> wipe the population out, and for that matter, I don't want to wipe the
> MTS out - just reduce their numbers a lot.
>
> According to the sites I've read, clown loaches are apparently ok in a
> community tank, and will grow fairly slowly.
>
>
> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

I dont' think my clown loaches ever ate a single MTS. Even with 3 loaches
in the tank the snail population was through the roof.

Jacqui

[Eric Schreiber]

RedForeman ). wrote:

> Stop feeding for a few days, and the MTS will be almost pavlovian
> trained.. watch this... After about 4 days, drop some shrimp
> pellets in one spot, and the next day about 18hrs later, MOST of your
> MTS will be on top of that pellet pile

Hehe. I'm imagining a pile of MTS that pushes open the lid of the tank
and spills over into the living room :)


> use your python tube to suction some/alot/not all of them out

From what I'm reading here, it sounds like this may be the approach I
have to use. I just hate to waste all that good potential fish food.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Dan White]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
>
>
> > use your python tube to suction some/alot/not all of them out
>
> From what I'm reading here, it sounds like this may be the approach I
> have to use. I just hate to waste all that good potential fish food.
>

But what will you do with them once you have sucked them out of the tank?

dwhite

[Eric Schreiber]

Dan White wrote:

> But what will you do with them once you have sucked them
> out of the tank?

It'll be hammer time.

I'd prefer not to kill the snails this way, but only because I feel
it's wasting a lot of potential fish food, not out of any sense of
squeamishness. If there is no suitable predator-based solution for my
tank, then this will be the route I take.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Jim85CJ]

http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/snails.html

Eric Schreiber wrote:

> Dan White wrote:
>
>
>>But what will you do with them once you have sucked them
>>out of the tank?
>
>
> It'll be hammer time.
>
> I'd prefer not to kill the snails this way, but only because I feel
> it's wasting a lot of potential fish food, not out of any sense of
> squeamishness. If there is no suitable predator-based solution for my
> tank, then this will be the route I take.
>
>

[Dan White]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> Dan White wrote:
>
> > But what will you do with them once you have sucked them
> > out of the tank?
>
> It'll be hammer time.
>
> I'd prefer not to kill the snails this way, but only because I feel
> it's wasting a lot of potential fish food, not out of any sense of
> squeamishness. If there is no suitable predator-based solution for my
> tank, then this will be the route I take.
>

Eric "MC" Schreiber I guess? lol. I only asked because you seemed to have
an aversion against flushing them. I wouldn't flush a fish, but I don't see
a problem with teeny snails personally. I can't see them contaminating
anything, or causing problems with the plumbing, but I guess you never know.

dwhite

[NetMax]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> Dan White wrote:
>
> > But what will you do with them once you have sucked them
> > out of the tank?
>
> It'll be hammer time.

The hammer might not be very practical. Too small and too many. A pot
of boiling water, drop them in. I believe escargo is started this way.

As Mike was suggesting, a couple of Zebra loaches might start making a
dent in the population, but if you are overfeeding, they might chose your
food instead. There are other fish which would help control the MTS
population. Baby MTS are often seen on the top of the water early in the
morning.

Besides looking a little eerie (watching your substrate moving), another
reason for thinning the MTS population down is to reduce the bio-load on
the tank (but you would need to decrease the food supply to get the
benefit).

Let us know which worked best for you.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> I'd prefer not to kill the snails this way, but only because I feel
> it's wasting a lot of potential fish food, not out of any sense of
> squeamishness. If there is no suitable predator-based solution for my
> tank, then this will be the route I take.
>
>
> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

NetMax wrote:

> The hammer might not be very practical.

I have a long, proud history of being impractical.


> A pot of boiling water, drop them in.

Hehe, I can just imagine the conversation with my wife. "Eric, what are
you cooking?". "Ummmm.... It's complicated."

> Let us know which worked best for you.

Will do.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Mean_Chlorine]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:23:20 GMT, Jim85CJ >
wrote:

>http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/snails.html

Nice page, but there's some errors...
The "pond snail" pictured is an apple snail; when people speak about
pond snails they often mean eggsnails (the genus Physa):
http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Physa_sp_DSCN4592.jpg
and from the description I think this page does too. However,
eggsnails don't eat plants, but most species of apple snail will.

Also, the upside down catfish is Synodontis nigriventris, and grows to
a maximum size of 12 cm. Synodontis multipunctatus is the cuckoo
catfish, which grows to about 20 cm. I don't know which of them the
page is refering to, or if either eats snails.


Me, I'd recommend pakistan loach for a smallish snail eater:
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/pakloach.htm

[Jess Van Tassell]

Mean_Chlorine > wrote in message >...
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:23:20 GMT, Jim85CJ >
> wrote:
>
> >http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/snails.html
>
> Nice page, but there's some errors...
> The "pond snail" pictured is an apple snail; when people speak about
> pond snails they often mean eggsnails (the genus Physa):
> http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Physa_sp_DSCN4592.jpg
> and from the description I think this page does too. However,
> eggsnails don't eat plants, but most species of apple snail will.
>
> Also, the upside down catfish is Synodontis nigriventris, and grows to
> a maximum size of 12 cm. Synodontis multipunctatus is the cuckoo
> catfish, which grows to about 20 cm. I don't know which of them the
> page is refering to, or if either eats snails.
>
>
> Me, I'd recommend pakistan loach for a smallish snail eater:
> http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/pakloach.htm

My vote is for the pakistani (also known as yo-yo) loach. Mine
looooved little snails. You'll be vacuuming snail shells out soon.
They are very interesting community fish that do well in a 20g tank.

-Jess

[NetMax]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
> > The hammer might not be very practical.
>
> I have a long, proud history of being impractical.
>
>
> > A pot of boiling water, drop them in.
>
> Hehe, I can just imagine the conversation with my wife. "Eric, what are
> you cooking?". "Ummmm.... It's complicated."

'Complicated' is when she walks by and comments "whatever you're cooking
smells delicious, I can't wait for supper". ;~)

NetMax

> > Let us know which worked best for you.
>
> Will do.
>
> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

[Velvet]

Eric Schreiber wrote:

> Quite some time ago (a year or more) I was given a handful of Malaysian
> Trumpet snails by a local fish store. I counted perhaps a hundred. Most
> went into my heavily planted 20 gallon community tank, where they've
> done quite well for themselves.
>
> Quite well, indeed.
>
> I estimate I now have several thousand, still in that same 20 gallon
> tank. The tank, fish and plants are all quite healthy, and the MTS
> certainly aren't hurting anything that I can see. But their population
> is extremely out of control.
>
> I can literally see my substrate (Flourite gravel) moving, almost
> constantly. Especially in the hour or so before the lights go off. It
> probably isn't an exaggeration to say that 1/5 of the volume of my
> substrate is actually MTS.
>
> A bit of web searching turns up clown loaches as the best 'natural'
> approach to dealing with these snails. I don't expect that they could
> wipe the population out, and for that matter, I don't want to wipe the
> MTS out - just reduce their numbers a lot.
>
> According to the sites I've read, clown loaches are apparently ok in a
> community tank, and will grow fairly slowly.
>
>

FWIW, I had similar happen. I still have MTS, quite how they're
suviving in a 23 gal tank with 3 x 1-inch clowns I'm not sure, but they
are. Had the clowns maybe 4-6 months now, they don't appear to have
grown at all. I'm well aware they'll eventually get too big, at which
point they'll go back to the LFS and they'll put them in their big
display tank, pending sale to anyone with big tank too.

I'm not advocating you do the same unless you're very very sure you can
rehome them when they get larger - large fish are harder to sell,
because fewer people have tanks large enough for them, and they normally
cost more than growing on small fish, so some LFS won't be interested in
taking larger specimens off you. Not to mention catching the buggers
can be hard work!

--


Velvet

[Dick]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 08:27:25 GMT, Velvet >
wrote:

>Eric Schreiber wrote:
>
>> Quite some time ago (a year or more) I was given a handful of Malaysian
>> Trumpet snails by a local fish store. I counted perhaps a hundred. Most
>> went into my heavily planted 20 gallon community tank, where they've
>> done quite well for themselves.
>>
>> Quite well, indeed.
>>
>> I estimate I now have several thousand, still in that same 20 gallon
>> tank. The tank, fish and plants are all quite healthy, and the MTS
>> certainly aren't hurting anything that I can see. But their population
>> is extremely out of control.
>>
>> I can literally see my substrate (Flourite gravel) moving, almost
>> constantly. Especially in the hour or so before the lights go off. It
>> probably isn't an exaggeration to say that 1/5 of the volume of my
>> substrate is actually MTS.
>>
>> A bit of web searching turns up clown loaches as the best 'natural'
>> approach to dealing with these snails. I don't expect that they could
>> wipe the population out, and for that matter, I don't want to wipe the
>> MTS out - just reduce their numbers a lot.
>>
>> According to the sites I've read, clown loaches are apparently ok in a
>> community tank, and will grow fairly slowly.
>>
>>
>
>FWIW, I had similar happen. I still have MTS, quite how they're
>suviving in a 23 gal tank with 3 x 1-inch clowns I'm not sure, but they
>are. Had the clowns maybe 4-6 months now, they don't appear to have
>grown at all. I'm well aware they'll eventually get too big, at which
>point they'll go back to the LFS and they'll put them in their big
>display tank, pending sale to anyone with big tank too.
>
>I'm not advocating you do the same unless you're very very sure you can
>rehome them when they get larger - large fish are harder to sell,
>because fewer people have tanks large enough for them, and they normally
>cost more than growing on small fish, so some LFS won't be interested in
>taking larger specimens off you. Not to mention catching the buggers
>can be hard work!


A few MTS survive in my 75 gallon tank in spite of 6 four inch Clown
Loaches. I don't mind MTS so long as I can still see my fish. I have
one 10 gallon tank that had MTS covering the glass and plants until I
moved two young Apple snails (I think) into the tank. The larger
snails may have reduced the food available or may be eating the MTS
eggs.

dick

[Vicki S]

Between my clown loaches, orange fin loaches and festivums MTS don't
stand much of a chance. I don't have any larger than a pin head.

Vicki


"It is well that war is so terrible, else we would grow fond of it."

~ Robert E. Lee~

Visit me on line at
http://shamrock4u.250free.com

To send e-mail delete webtv.net and add msn.com
(put to Vicki in subject line or my spam filter will discard)

[Eric Schreiber]

Brian wrote:

> if you have enough motivation to package some of those
> suckers in wet newspaper in a ziploc baggie and drop it in the mail,
> I'd be happy to have some.


I can't guarantee live arrival, but I'll be happy to send you some MTS,
no charge. It's not like I can't spare a few hundred :)

Drop me an email with your mailing address and I'll get something out
tomorrow.

My email address is "eric at ericschreiber dot com"


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Robert Flory]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> Dan White wrote:
>
>> But what will you do with them once you have sucked them
>> out of the tank?
>
> It'll be hammer time.
>
> I'd prefer not to kill the snails this way, but only because I feel
> it's wasting a lot of potential fish food, not out of any sense of
> squeamishness. If there is no suitable predator-based solution for my
> tank, then this will be the route I take.
>
>
> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

My yo-yos keep them in check in one 55, and a zebra does in another in
another.The only place I see them is on my filter pad, they get flushed.
Bob

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: "Dan White"
>Date: 9/7/2004 3:38 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
>> >
>> > A bit of web searching turns up clown loaches as the best 'natural'
>> > approach to dealing with these snails. I don't expect that they could
>> > wipe the population out, and for that matter, I don't want to wipe the
>> > MTS out - just reduce their numbers a lot.
>> >
>
>Not to be a wise guy, but can't you just grab a handful and flush them?
>
>dwhite

Hehe....
You have no idea then as to the breeding capacity of these snails.
They're like bugs in a house..for every one you see...there's hundreds more you
can't.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: "Eric Schreiber" ericat ericschreiber dot com
>Date: 9/7/2004 5:04 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>
>> Problem is, a Clown loach is a massive fish. When grown it's the size
>> and general shape of a loaf of bread. It's also boisterous, and your
>> other fish are small and timid, and to top it off it's a schooling
>> fish which isn't happy if kept alone.
>
>I would get a pair if I got any, but I know that they can grow very
>large. That's my primary concern. I hadn't realized they were also
>potentially disruptive - most of my current fish are pretty placid
>(except for the SAEs).
>
>> There are smaller loaches, and AFAIK they all eat snails, so you may
>> want to look into those instead. They'll only be able to eat the young
>> snails, but will eventually dent the population.
>
>That would be ideal.
>
>> at present you are apparently feeding the snails quite a lot.
>
>Guilty as charged. I almost certainly overfeed. I will try to cut back,
>though at this point the damage is done.
>
>I'll look into alternative loach species, and also the trap you
>suggested. Thanks.
>

Eric,
Clowns grow large, yes. However, their growth is extremely slow.
If you purchased a pair of smaller size, you'd have many, many years before
you'd evenhave to start thinking of a larger tank for them.

[TYNK 7]

Snipped

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: "Eric Schreiber" ericat ericschreiber dot com
>Date: 9/7/2004 3:08 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>
>> use your python tube to suction some/alot/not all of them out
>
>From what I'm reading here, it sounds like this may be the approach I
>have to use. I just hate to waste all that good potential fish food.

I have a Python and they don't suck up.

[RedForeman ©®]

|||| use your python tube to suction some/alot/not all of them out

|| I have a Python and they don't suck up.

Not the actual python, just the hose that goes in the unit...I have to use
just the hose and it sucks 'em up really good... sucks EVERYTHING up really
good...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

[Eric Schreiber]

TYNK 7 wrote:

> I have a Python and they don't suck up.

I dont' have a python, just a basic siphon tube and hose. It won't pick
up the MTS either. I was thinking more generally of trapping or netting
them than vacuuming. I'm planning a small butter container with
snail-sized holes cut into it, a rock in it for weight, and some tasty
snail-bait food, sitting on the bottom of the tank for a day or two at
a time. Sort of a catch-and-crunch program :)

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

Dick wrote:

> I have two tanks with MTS, both 10 gallons. I accept that they are
> beneficial, but they are ugly.

I actually like the looks of the MTS (in addition to their
gravel-churnign activity), but several thousand in a 20 gallon tank is
just a bit overboard.

> suppose the Mystery snails have taken food from the MTS, but I also
> wonder if the Mystery snails are eating the MTS eggs.

Most likely food reduction. I believe MTS are live bearers.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Victor Martinez]

TYNK 7 wrote:
> Clowns grow large, yes. However, their growth is extremely slow.
> If you purchased a pair of smaller size, you'd have many, many years before
> you'd evenhave to start thinking of a larger tank for them.

Not on a 20g tank full of snails... I have a total of 10 clown loaches,
ranging from 3" to well over 6". They all started at ~1" about 1.5 years
ago. Not all clown loaches take years to reach a fairly large size, my
big boy got huge in a matter of months. Certainly too big for a 20
gallon tank. Besides having 2 clown loaches is cruel, IMO. They do best
in groups of at least 5 or 6.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: Victor Martinez
>Date: 9/12/2004 7:06 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 wrote:
>> Clowns grow large, yes. However, their growth is extremely slow.
>> If you purchased a pair of smaller size, you'd have many, many years before
>> you'd evenhave to start thinking of a larger tank for them.
>
>Not on a 20g tank full of snails... I have a total of 10 clown loaches,
>ranging from 3" to well over 6". They all started at ~1" about 1.5 years
>ago. Not all clown loaches take years to reach a fairly large size, my
>big boy got huge in a matter of months. Certainly too big for a 20
>gallon tank. Besides having 2 clown loaches is cruel, IMO. They do best
>in groups of at least 5 or 6.

Well now I think you need to share what little secret you've got going with
them.
Spill...come on already....
Out with it. = )~

[Victor Martinez]

TYNK 7 wrote:
> Well now I think you need to share what little secret you've got going with
> them.
> Spill...come on already....

I think it's part genetics, part good diet. Lots of snails make a loach
very fat and happy. I also feed a variety of sinking foods (Hikari
brand) and frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp daily (also Hikari,
they're irradiated so there's no chance of parasites). My fish grow like
gangbusters! :)

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: Victor Martinez
>Date: 9/15/2004 7:57 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 wrote:
>> Well now I think you need to share what little secret you've got going with
>> them.
>> Spill...come on already....
>
>I think it's part genetics, part good diet. Lots of snails make a loach
>very fat and happy. I also feed a variety of sinking foods (Hikari
>brand) and frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp daily (also Hikari,
>they're irradiated so there's no chance of parasites). My fish grow like
>gangbusters! :)
>

I too feed Hikari foods. Love them.
It's the only brand of frozen foods I'll buy now.
Maybe that explains why my Neon tetras, generally soft water fishes, grow to
max size (1 1/2") in a flash in my liquid rock for water.
For those San Fran (Sally's) frozen Bloodworm users...the next time you're
almost out get a pack of Hikari's frozen Bloodworms.
Thaw about the same amount in clear containers. You'll be amazed at the
difference in not only the size and condition of the worms, but at how much
more nasty the water is in the San Fran's cup.
That crud is going in your tank too.
Last time my store was out of Hikari's..I ran to like 3 others stores looking
for it.
I got the "Sally's is just as good, Maam." reply every time. = /

[Dan White]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >
>
> I too feed Hikari foods. Love them.
> It's the only brand of frozen foods I'll buy now.
> Maybe that explains why my Neon tetras, generally soft water fishes, grow
to
> max size (1 1/2") in a flash in my liquid rock for water.

I don't think I have enough fish to feed a whole cube of frozen stuff to.
Will the stuff keep in a fridge for 1 day or must it be used immediately?
Also, do you have any pics of your tetras? I'm curious about what the max
size of tetras looks like. Does 1.5" include the tail? A couple of mine
are getting pretty large, but I don't think the body is even an inch.

dwhite

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: "Dan White"
>Date: 9/15/2004 3:33 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>> >
>>
>> I too feed Hikari foods. Love them.
>> It's the only brand of frozen foods I'll buy now.
>> Maybe that explains why my Neon tetras, generally soft water fishes, grow
>to
>> max size (1 1/2") in a flash in my liquid rock for water.
>
>I don't think I have enough fish to feed a whole cube of frozen stuff to.
>Will the stuff keep in a fridge for 1 day or must it be used immediately?
>Also, do you have any pics of your tetras? I'm curious about what the max
>size of tetras looks like. Does 1.5" include the tail? A couple of mine
>are getting pretty large, but I don't think the body is even an inch.
>
>dwhite

If memory serves me correctly, I think Hikari also has a flat pack of Frozen
Bloodworms. That way you can break off as much or little as you need.

I do have pics of my Neons around here. However, I don't know if I have them in
a situation where you can have something else to compare with.
I'll have to look through a gazillion pics later (don't have the time right
now, gotta run to din din at my little Sis's house).
If you could, drop me an email to remind me. = )

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: "Dan White"
>Date: 9/15/2004 3:33 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>

OOPS...
Forgot to answer something.

> Does 1.5" include the tail?

Yes..head to tail.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Dan White" > Spake Unto All:

>Also, do you have any pics of your tetras? I'm curious about what the max
>size of tetras looks like.

Not quite 1.5", but this one...
http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Neon_DSC_0217.jpg
is about 3 cm total length. It's two years old, and it and it's
buddies were about 1 cm (tiny little things!) when I bought them. Now
they're about the biggest neons I've ever seen, and don't seem to grow
any more.

Incidentally, would anyone know if the neon in the picture is a male
or a female?

[Dan White]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...

> If memory serves me correctly, I think Hikari also has a flat pack of
Frozen
> Bloodworms. That way you can break off as much or little as you need.
>

Bloodworms seem to be spoken of frequently here. Is this the favorite food
of most fish?

dwhite

[Dan White]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly "Dan White" > Spake Unto All:
>
> >Also, do you have any pics of your tetras? I'm curious about what the
max
> >size of tetras looks like.
>
> Not quite 1.5", but this one...
> http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Neon_DSC_0217.jpg
> is about 3 cm total length. It's two years old, and it and it's
> buddies were about 1 cm (tiny little things!) when I bought them. Now
> they're about the biggest neons I've ever seen, and don't seem to grow
> any more.
>

WOW! By my reckoning, that there fish is about 6 inches long! lol. That is
a great picture. I assume cardinal tetras get to the same size?

thanks,
dwhite

[Dan White]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly "Dan White" > Spake Unto All:
>
> >Also, do you have any pics of your tetras? I'm curious about what the
max
> >size of tetras looks like.
>
> Not quite 1.5", but this one...
> http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Neon_DSC_0217.jpg
> is about 3 cm total length. It's two years old, and it and it's
> buddies were about 1 cm (tiny little things!) when I bought them. Now
> they're about the biggest neons I've ever seen, and don't seem to grow
> any more.
>

4 of mine are here:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/qstroker2004/detail?.dir=877e&.dnm=7aa0.jpg

Some of them are probably just over an inch, but it is hard to tell. They
move around so much.

dwhite

[NetMax]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
t...
>
> "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thusly "Dan White" > Spake Unto All:
> >
> > >Also, do you have any pics of your tetras? I'm curious about what
the
> max
> > >size of tetras looks like.
> >
> > Not quite 1.5", but this one...
> > http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Neon_DSC_0217.jpg
> > is about 3 cm total length. It's two years old, and it and it's
> > buddies were about 1 cm (tiny little things!) when I bought them. Now
> > they're about the biggest neons I've ever seen, and don't seem to
grow
> > any more.
> >
>
> WOW! By my reckoning, that there fish is about 6 inches long! lol.
That is
> a great picture. I assume cardinal tetras get to the same size?


On the Neon, my guess would be that it's not a gravid female, and
considering the age, that makes it more likely to be a male.

Cardinals tetras grow significantly larger than Neon tetras.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> thanks,
> dwhite
>
>

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: Mean_Chlorine
>Date: 9/15/2004 5:01 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Thusly "Dan White" > Spake Unto All:
>
>>Also, do you have any pics of your tetras? I'm curious about what the max
>>size of tetras looks like.
>
>Not quite 1.5", but this one...
>http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Neon_DSC_0217.jpg
>is about 3 cm total length. It's two years old, and it and it's
>buddies were about 1 cm (tiny little things!) when I bought them. Now
>they're about the biggest neons I've ever seen, and don't seem to grow
>any more.
>
>Incidentally, would anyone know if the neon in the picture is a male
>or a female?

Looks female to me.
I was once told, years ago and I don't know if this is actually true, but from
the courting behavior I've seen in my tanks, I think it is true...
The blue bar that goes acorss them..if it's curved it's female and if it's
straight, it's male.

[Dan White]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> Cardinals tetras grow significantly larger than Neon tetras.
> --
No kidding? I'll have to reasearch that. I'd love to have some big tetras.

thanks,
dwhite

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: "Dan White"
>Date: 9/15/2004 6:47 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>
>> If memory serves me correctly, I think Hikari also has a flat pack of
>Frozen
>> Bloodworms. That way you can break off as much or little as you need.
>>
>
>Bloodworms seem to be spoken of frequently here. Is this the favorite food
>of most fish?
>
>dwhite

::trying to think if I've ever had a fish that wouldn't them::
Hmm...can't think of any.
The only thing that comes to mind is the Pygmy Cories I have. Sometimes the
worms can be on the larger side and those Pygmies are so small, that they seem
to have a bit of trouble eating the larger ones...but not eating them...never.
I guess worms + fish = happy fishies. = )

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Dan White" > Spake Unto All:

>4 of mine are here:
>http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/qstroker2004/detail?.dir=877e&.dnm=7aa0.jpg
>
>Some of them are probably just over an inch, but it is hard to tell. They
>move around so much.

Ah, that's cardinals. I _think_ they grow a bit bigger than neons.

[Dan White]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly "Dan White" > Spake Unto All:
>
> >4 of mine are here:
> >http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/qstroker2004/detail?.dir=877e&.dnm=7aa0.jpg
> >
> >Some of them are probably just over an inch, but it is hard to tell.
They
> >move around so much.
>
> Ah, that's cardinals. I _think_ they grow a bit bigger than neons.
>

I looked 'em up. Looks like they grow to 2 inches max.

dwhite

[RedForeman ©®]

|| Bloodworms seem to be spoken of frequently here. Is this the
|| favorite food of most fish?
||
|| dwhite

Clown Loaches seem to thrive when fed this, and most other fish absolutely
love it...

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ><((((º> ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>
| for any questions you may have....
| Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment...

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: MTS out of control
>From: "Dan White"
>Date: 9/16/2004 8:44 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
>> Thusly "Dan White" > Spake Unto All:
>>
>> >4 of mine are here:
>> >http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/qstroker2004/detail?.dir=877e&.dnm=7aa0.jpg
>> >
>> >Some of them are probably just over an inch, but it is hard to tell.
>They
>> >move around so much.
>>
>> Ah, that's cardinals. I _think_ they grow a bit bigger than neons.
>>
>
> I looked 'em up. Looks like they grow to 2 inches max.
>
>dwhite

I once saw this gorgeous tank with large Discus and fully grown Cardinals and
Neons in the same tank.
Black gravel and live Amazon Swords...what a lovely tank.
If anyone gets a chance to visit the John G Shedd Aquarium (public Aquarium
museum) in Chicago, IL (USA)...they have a huge display tank the largest school
of Cardinals I have ever seen in my life.
It will take your breath away.

[NetMax]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
. ..
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Cardinals tetras grow significantly larger than Neon tetras.
> > --
> No kidding? I'll have to reasearch that. I'd love to have some big
tetras.
>
> thanks,
> dwhite

For *big* tetras, leave South America for Africa - Congo tetras.. sweet
:o), but the colours are more subtle, really coming out in sunlight.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Eric Schreiber]

NetMax wrote:

> For big tetras, leave South America for Africa - Congo tetras.. sweet
> :o), but the colours are more subtle, really coming out in sunlight.

A lot of my fish are 'subtly' colored. To the point that when my
parents visit, they invariably tease me about "look, he bought another
plain silver fish".

My next tank is going to be rainbows or cichlids. Probably cichlids.
Dangit, I'm going to get some *flash* going on!


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[sophie]

In message >, Eric Schreiber
> writes
>NetMax wrote:
>
>> For big tetras, leave South America for Africa - Congo tetras.. sweet
>> :o), but the colours are more subtle, really coming out in sunlight.
>
>A lot of my fish are 'subtly' colored. To the point that when my
>parents visit, they invariably tease me about "look, he bought another
>plain silver fish".

I _like_ subtly coloured fish (I also don't have aquarium lights); the
other half can't understand why I love the white clouds so much - but if
you spend time watching them, the colouring is lovely.

>
>My next tank is going to be rainbows or cichlids. Probably cichlids.
>Dangit, I'm going to get some *flash* going on!
>
>

--
sophie

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly sophie > Spake
Unto All:

>>A lot of my fish are 'subtly' colored. To the point that when my
>>parents visit, they invariably tease me about "look, he bought another
>>plain silver fish".
>
>I _like_ subtly coloured fish (I also don't have aquarium lights); the
>other half can't understand why I love the white clouds so much - but if
>you spend time watching them, the colouring is lovely.

My girlfriend has forbidden me from getting any more "small gray
fish". :-)
I think the Oryzias were the last straw for her. :-)

However, if you're a fan of white clouds, you owe it to yourself to
check out the _second_ Tanichthys species: it's smaller, gentler, and
with prettier colors. And even easier to breed.
This is not a very good picture, but it sortof shows what it looks
like:
http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Tanichthys_micagemmae_DSC_0391.jpg

[sophie]

In message >, Mean_Chlorine
> writes
>Thusly sophie > Spake
>Unto All:
>
>>>A lot of my fish are 'subtly' colored. To the point that when my
>>>parents visit, they invariably tease me about "look, he bought another
>>>plain silver fish".
>>
>>I _like_ subtly coloured fish (I also don't have aquarium lights); the
>>other half can't understand why I love the white clouds so much - but if
>>you spend time watching them, the colouring is lovely.
>
>My girlfriend has forbidden me from getting any more "small gray
>fish". :-)
>I think the Oryzias were the last straw for her. :-)
>
>However, if you're a fan of white clouds, you owe it to yourself to
>check out the _second_ Tanichthys species: it's smaller, gentler, and
>with prettier colors. And even easier to breed.
>This is not a very good picture, but it sortof shows what it looks
>like:
>http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Tanichthys_micagemmae_DSC_0391.jpg

aren't they lovely! I wonder if you can get them in the UK...
warm or cold water?
>

--
sophie

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly sophie > Spake
Unto All:

>>However, if you're a fan of white clouds, you owe it to yourself to
>>check out the _second_ Tanichthys species: it's smaller, gentler, and
>>with prettier colors. And even easier to breed.
>>This is not a very good picture, but it sortof shows what it looks
>>like:
>>http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/specimens/Tanichthys_micagemmae_DSC_0391.jpg
>
>aren't they lovely! I wonder if you can get them in the UK...

Most likely. They're becoming fairly common around here, and we always
get everything last.

>warm or cold water?

I'm using mine as dithers for Sailfin tetras in 28C water, and they're
thriving and breeding like crazy, but I'm guessing they can handle
fairly cool water. They also don't eat their own young, which means my
population just keeps growing.

Here's my notes on breeding this fish (scroll down a bit)
http://mikes-machine.mine.nu/Breeding%20notes.htm

[Trapper]

(TYNK 7) wrote in message >...
>[snippety-snip]
>
> I once saw this gorgeous tank with large Discus and fully grown Cardinals and
> Neons in the same tank.
> Black gravel and live Amazon Swords...what a lovely tank.
> If anyone gets a chance to visit the John G Shedd Aquarium (public Aquarium
> museum) in Chicago, IL (USA)...they have a huge display tank the largest
> school of Cardinals I have ever seen in my life. It will take your breath
> away.


I'm contemplating a return to the hobby after being away from it for
almost 15 years. And one of the things responsible is the tetra tank
at the Shedd. Tynk is right on the money, it *is* breathtaking. IMHO
it's one of the best tanks I've seen in any aquarium anywhere, bar
none.

So, my idea is to replicate a wee bit of that tank here at home in
maybe 55-125 gal. This is exciting.

However, I've never kept tetras before. All my previous fish
experience was with hardwater/alkaline fish, and a brief foray into
salties (and 15 yrs ago). So, despite several days' trawling of the
archives, I've got some questions.

(1) Whether it will require real heroics with NYC tap water to get it
tetra-friendly.
(1a) If so, what those heroics are and how they may be
cost-effectively be done.
(2) Whether it be overkill, or even just plain dumb, to use a
reef-style wet/dry for biofiltering in a freshwater context of this
size.
(3) What good suggestions for lighting systems?

It's good to be (almost) back!!

--Trapper

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Tetra tank at the Shedd: the NYC home version: folly?
>From: (Trapper)
>Date: 10/6/2004 9:55 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(TYNK 7) wrote in message
>...
>>[snippety-snip]
>>
>> I once saw this gorgeous tank with large Discus and fully grown Cardinals
>and
>> Neons in the same tank.
>> Black gravel and live Amazon Swords...what a lovely tank.
>> If anyone gets a chance to visit the John G Shedd Aquarium (public Aquarium
>> museum) in Chicago, IL (USA)...they have a huge display tank the largest
>> school of Cardinals I have ever seen in my life. It will take your breath
>> away.
>
>
>I'm contemplating a return to the hobby after being away from it for
>almost 15 years. And one of the things responsible is the tetra tank
>at the Shedd. Tynk is right on the money, it *is* breathtaking. IMHO
>it's one of the best tanks I've seen in any aquarium anywhere, bar
>none.
>
>So, my idea is to replicate a wee bit of that tank here at home in
>maybe 55-125 gal. This is exciting.
>
>However, I've never kept tetras before. All my previous fish
>experience was with hardwater/alkaline fish, and a brief foray into
>salties (and 15 yrs ago). So, despite several days' trawling of the
>archives, I've got some questions.
>
>(1) Whether it will require real heroics with NYC tap water to get it
>tetra-friendly.
>(1a) If so, what those heroics are and how they may be
>cost-effectively be done.
>(2) Whether it be overkill, or even just plain dumb, to use a
>reef-style wet/dry for biofiltering in a freshwater context of this
>size.
>(3) What good suggestions for lighting systems?
>
>It's good to be (almost) back!!
>
>--Trapper
>

Welcome (alomst) back, Trapper! = )
Man, is that tank at the Shedd simply awesome or what.
My daughter had to drag me away the last time we went together. However, this
last March I took myself their for my Birthday and left her with Hubby! hehe
I spent the whole darn day there and wasn't nagged a bit for taking too long.
About the pH situation...I've seen my Neons (soft water fishes) gorw to max
size in my liquid rock (8.0-8.2 at the most highest). I've seen the Neons do
well in it. However, spawning them would be entirely different. They must have
soft water, but I'm not trying for that so I no worries.
As for Cardinals..I honestly do not know if they would fair well in hard water
or not.
I might assume they'd be like the neons....but then again you really can't
always assume in this hobby.
NetMax....what sa you about Cardinals and hard water?

[Dan White]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...

> As for Cardinals..I honestly do not know if they would fair well in hard
water
> or not.
> I might assume they'd be like the neons....but then again you really can't
> always assume in this hobby.
> NetMax....what sa you about Cardinals and hard water?

I have very hard water in NJ...got 6 cardinals about 2 months ago and they
are all doing just fine. I had cardinals years ago as a kid in the same
area and they had no problem with the hard water.

dwhite

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Tetra tank at the Shedd: the NYC home version: folly?
>From: "Dan White"
>Date: 10/6/2004 11:20 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>
>> As for Cardinals..I honestly do not know if they would fair well in hard
>water
>> or not.
>> I might assume they'd be like the neons....but then again you really can't
>> always assume in this hobby.
>> NetMax....what sa you about Cardinals and hard water?
>
>I have very hard water in NJ...got 6 cardinals about 2 months ago and they
>are all doing just fine. I had cardinals years ago as a kid in the same
>area and they had no problem with the hard water.
>
>dwhite

Good to know!
Tanks. = )

[Trapper]

"Dan White" > wrote in message >...
> "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > As for Cardinals..I honestly do not know if they would fair well in hard
> water
> > or not.
> > I might assume they'd be like the neons....but then again you really can't
> > always assume in this hobby.
> > NetMax....what sa you about Cardinals and hard water?
>
> I have very hard water in NJ...got 6 cardinals about 2 months ago and they
> are all doing just fine. I had cardinals years ago as a kid in the same
> area and they had no problem with the hard water.
>
> dwhite

Howdy again,

I'm across the river in Manhattan, and the water here, according to an
assay from 2003 I saw on the web, is about 1.2DH. That's fairly soft,
I reckon, and the pH is supposed to test out at about 7.2.

I *think* my water conditions here wouldn't take much tweaking to get
down to mid-6 pH and 2-3 DH that the tetras seem to like for breeding.
The best case scenario would be for my would-be flock of cardinals to
get to breeding condition. Other than a possible nitrate and
phosphate spike in NYC tap water, there seem to be few problems. I
think water changes and plants will keep these under control.

Has anyone had good freshwater experience with wet/dry? That was a
big part of my original post, not so far addressed.

Thanks!

--Trapper

[Dean A. Markley]

Eric, I will take some of those snails off your hands! Will that help?
Also, a few native sunfish will help keep them down. Redbreasts are
snaileaters.

Dean

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> Quite some time ago (a year or more) I was given a handful of Malaysian
> Trumpet snails by a local fish store. I counted perhaps a hundred. Most
> went into my heavily planted 20 gallon community tank, where they've
> done quite well for themselves.
>
> Quite well, indeed.
>
> I estimate I now have several thousand, still in that same 20 gallon
> tank. The tank, fish and plants are all quite healthy, and the MTS
> certainly aren't hurting anything that I can see. But their population
> is extremely out of control.
>
> I can literally see my substrate (Flourite gravel) moving, almost
> constantly. Especially in the hour or so before the lights go off. It
> probably isn't an exaggeration to say that 1/5 of the volume of my
> substrate is actually MTS.
>
> A bit of web searching turns up clown loaches as the best 'natural'
> approach to dealing with these snails. I don't expect that they could
> wipe the population out, and for that matter, I don't want to wipe the
> MTS out - just reduce their numbers a lot.
>
> According to the sites I've read, clown loaches are apparently ok in a
> community tank, and will grow fairly slowly.
>
>
> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

[NetMax]

"Trapper" > wrote...
> "NetMax" > wrote>...
> > "Trapper" > wrote...
> > > "NetMax" > wrote>...
> > > > "Trapper" > wrote...
> > > > > "Dan White" > wrote >...
> > > > > > "TYNK 7" > wrote...
> > > > > > [snippety-snip]
>
> I made a trip to my LFS on Friday before sundown, and the
> reasonably-clueful (but interested in selling me stuff) LSF-guy
> claimed that the shop's tetras do well in their slightly alkaline
> (7.2ish) water. This guy tried to sell me on the idea of getting a
> tapwater purifier doodad (not RO) to pull metals, etc., from my
> tapwater, and to soften it somewhat, saying it is indispensible for
> the tetras and planted tank I wish to maintain. The gizmo is $70, so
> I might just say "what the heck."

I'm always sceptical about tapwater purifiers. Most of what I've seen
were softener pillows which needed to be recharged, or types of
zeolite/activated carbon, which also had a finite operating life. If the
natural conditions are fish-adaptable, then it's less work & expense to
keep them that way.

> He also tried to sell me a $799 lighting hood, so the appropriate
> grains of salt have been taken.
>
> > It is my opinion that osmotic pressure is of far greater interest to
the
> > hobbyist when keeping small river fish like Cardinal tetras. Rapid
> > changes in the gH which would be damaging to other larger or more
hardy
> > fish, will be fatal to small tetras, often resulting in an epidemic
of
> > some contagion (Ich, Velvet and fin rot seem to be the most
prevalent).
>
> If I end up getting the aforementioned water purifier doodad, and if
> its effectiveness doesn't vary wildly during use, I think I should be
> able to keep my water-change water chemistry pretty consistent. Any
> evaporative losses will be topped off by commercially-supplied
> distilled/deionized water, so I think I won't have much to worry about
> in terms of *increasing* hardness. The plants could have a softening
> effect, though, so I'll just have to keep testing. And I'll remember
> your idea of keeping some coral on hand just in case.

In theory, I'm in agreement, but the ability to use copious amounts of
source water is an extremely valuable tool which I'm always reticent to
give up. As soon as you sucumb to massaging your water's parameters to
anything different than source, then you relinquish part of your
abilities and accept some limitations. A new hobbyist is well advised to
change as little as possible. For everyone else, it's at your
discretion, based on experience, confidence and the application.

> Also, I haven't ruled out the idea of getting an RO unit, and using
> commercially-available reconstituting solutions with its output. The
> tapwater here has a fair amount of nitrates and phosphates, and it
> seems like it could be worthwhile to keep those as low as possible to
> prevent algal blooms. Then again, pulling enough C02 in the tank to
> get to pH 6 might give the plants all the leg-up they need.

Nitrates are not a problem in low-fishload planted tanks. Some hobbyists
add nitrates in these conditions. Also phosphates can be removed with a
phosphate pillow if the need arose (just fyi).

> > Anecdotally, I was keeping Neon tetras [and lots of 'em, in 7.7pH,
3dgH 2dkH
> > water].
>
> This leads me to believe that I'm just a wee bit needlessly worried.
>
> > Later [Cards kept in a standard tank at 7.7pH and they did great].
> > [***] At 7.7pH, this brings us to almost 4 orders of magnitude, but
_note_ my
> > hardness was 3dgH, and I think this was a big contributor.
>
> The idea this gives me is that there's got to be a 3-dimensional (at
> least) matrix from which can be computed some useful single parameter
> for one's water. In other words, you plug in pH, gH, kH, and out
> comes some number. And let's say your fishies need that number in a
> certain range. I'm not sure how I'd go about calculating this number,
> we may have to just see who keeps happy tetras and just figure it out
> empirically.

Interesting idea, though I think it would be better described as fishies
needing to avoid a number range, rather than being in a number range, as
they are exremely adaptable if the changes occur gradually (just as they
would in a larger body of water than your typical aquarium ;~).

> > > > [The coral buffer idea]
> > > My translation of what this means is that if my tapwater has little
> > > buffering capacity, as carbonate, then addition of some buffering
> > > capability to the system as a whole is indicated. This suggestion
is
> > > facially sound; one wants to keep a hedge against the dreaded pH
> > > crash, notwithstanding sources positing Cardinals' acid tolerance,
> > > supra.
> >
> > Correct, though not all buffering agents are created equally ;~)
>
> Right. One must select the buffering system for effectiveness at the
> desired pH (among other factors). If I mind my Ps and Qs, I think I
> can get away with the carbonic acid/carbonate buffers at pH 6. And if
> I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will tell me. <g>

Not me, I've only been doing the stuff for just over 30 years, so I'm
still learning.

> > > I think the coral itself won't really be touched significantly
unless
> > > there is in the tank an acidifying force capable of exhausting the
tap
> > > water's inherent buffering capacity between water changes.
> >
> > Typically, the primary acidifying effect will be [the obvious].
Trade
> > doctrine for the 'fence' is 4dkH, below which you need to be far more
> > cautious.
>
> Seems to me that the caution is against pH crash. And it seems also
> that if one's hell-bent on using really soft water for some purpose,
> it is a good idea to have a quite large system with small biological
> load.
>
> I wouldn't want to play around with really soft water at pH 5.5 in a
> 10-gal tank with 5 fish, but I suspect the danger would be much
> lessened in a 6-foot tank.

Yes and no. On the surface, yes, as every change or risk of imbalance is
magnified by a greater fishload (smaller tank), and larger tanks (100g+)
move (parametrically) very slowly, almost establishing their own
biotope-like balance if allowed to, but (there is always a but).... If
it takes more time to 'affect' a larger tank, they also have much more
momentum, so that the intitial correctve actions often appears
ineffective. Coupled with the hobbyist's more relaxed approach with
larger tanks (and who can blame us after so many test results appear so
constant), that we sometimes get caught unawares ;~).

> > [snippety-snip]
>
> > > The only possible snag I see is if I eventually employ a C02
system.
> > > In particular, I wonder if a w/d trickle filter is *too* good at
> > > performing outgassing, and, if so, whether I'd lose much of the CO2
> > > benefit as a result.
> >
> > I think we have similar opinion on the pros & cons, including the
concern
> > about outgassing the extra CO2.
>
> The LFS people were of somewhat divided opinion as to w/d filters in
> CO2-equipped planted tanks. Consensus was mildly against, due to
> exactly this concern about CO2 outgassing.

Speaking as a customer, LFS manager and a fish-dept personnel trainer,
I've never held the opinions of LFS personnel in high esteem. I do trust
the newgroups to point me in more accurate and measurable directions.

> That said, I have given this some thought and I do believe it is
> possible, at the expense of additional CO2, to keep the plants
> supplied with as much of the dissolved gas as they need - even while
> using a w/d filter. This I predicate on the assumption that the w/d
> will not be able to outgas 100% of dissolved C02; there will be *some*
> amount, addable to the tank, which even after dissipation by the w/d
> will end up being proper. There's no calculable approach I can think
> of to determining this level, and I'd just have to titrate.

LOL on titrate, never heard it put this way, though it reasonably
describes the process if using a pressurized CO2 canister. If use yeast
reaction, you will be more limited on how much CO2 you can afford to have
dissipated. In any case, try to minimize your surface turbulence or you
will have another CO2 sink to compensate for.

<snip>
> If I target a pH of, say, 6 (and my gut feeling is that it can safely
> be done) I'm not too worried about affecting the fishies adversely.
> I'll bet that within reason dissolved C02 won't displace dissolved O2,
> and the Cards will be fine.

Yes, I've also read that O2 displacement by CO2 does not significantly
occur in these applications. If your interest has you curious, would
using a nitrogen/CO2 mix be more advantageous? I wonder what the plants
would think of that? It would be a more natural mixture (as a ratio to
CO2, not O2).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> > [snip]
>
>
> --Trapper

[Trapper]

"NetMax" > wrote in message >...
> "Trapper" > wrote...
> > "NetMax" > wrote>...
> > > "Trapper" > wrote...
> > > > "NetMax" > wrote>...
> > > > > "Trapper" > wrote...
> > > > > > "Dan White" > wrote >...
> > > > > > > "TYNK 7" > wrote...
> > > > > > > [snippety-snip]
> >

> >
>
> I'm always skeptical about tapwater purifiers. Most of what I've seen
> were softener pillows which needed to be recharged, or types of
> zeolite/activated carbon, which also had a finite operating life. If the
> natural conditions are fish-adaptable, then it's less work & expense to
> keep them that way.

I've finally begun, slowly, to analyze my tapwater. The results so
far have been interesting:
pH @ zero time: 7.0
pH @ 17hrs: ~7.2 (guesstimate; my test kit has 0.5pH increments)

KH: 0.8

I've yet to test for GH, so the picture's not really complete. My
feeling, which I base solely on published NYC water analyses, is that
GH is not going to be very high at all. The upshot of this is that,
at least with respect to KH and GH, an RO unit or tapwater purifier is
not going to buy me any advantages at all.

It's still an open question whether it'd be worthwhile for nitrates
(reportedly ~0.2 ppm out of the tap) and phosphates (reportedly ~2.1
ppm out of the tap) and metals (unknown).

Time to scope out a source of reagent-grade bicarb and CaCO3.

> > [snip]

> >
>
> In theory, I'm in agreement, but the ability to use copious amounts of
> source water is an extremely valuable tool which I'm always reticent to
> give up. [Tinkering with it is] at your discretion, based on experience,
> confidence and the application.

Based on the result of my KH testing, I'm sufficiently concerned with
the buffering capacity of my water that I think I'll be forced to do
*some* kind of modifications of the tapwater. Point taken, though;
simplicity with this most fundamental component of the system is to be
sought where possible.

> > [More on RO, nitrates, phosphates, and plants]
>
> Nitrates are not a problem in low-fishload planted tanks. Some hobbyists
> add nitrates in these conditions. Also phosphates can be removed with a
> phosphate pillow if the need arose (just fyi).

Okay, I am now tending toward the conclusion that the chief, if not
entire, utility of an RO unit for me will be to produce water suitable
for replacement of evaporative losses. Given the price here in NYC of
a gallon of distilled water (several bucks, when you can find it)
it'll be cost-effective in no time for me to get a $120 RO unit.

[i]
> > > Anecdotally, I was keeping Neon tetras [and lots of 'em, in 7.7pH,
> > > 3dgH 2dkH water].

There's got to be a chemistry lesson in this. Running your pH and kH
through the formula:
[CO2] = 3 * (kH) * 10^(7-pH)
where kH = 36 ppm
gives [CO2] ~ 1.2 ppm. Ambient [CO2] is said to be 3-5 ppm.

It must be that there is other buffer funkiness going on in that
system. Perhaps a significant buffer sink other than carbonate?
Plants eating CO2 faster than the passive diffusion rate from
air->water?

> > [snip]

> > The idea this gives me is that there's got to be a 3-dimensional (at
> > least) matrix from which can be computed some useful single parameter
> > for one's water. [***]
>
> Interesting idea, though I think it would be better described as fishies
> needing to avoid a number range, rather than being in a number range, as
> they are exremely adaptable if the changes occur gradually (just as they
> would in a larger body of water than your typical aquarium ;~).

I think of this in just the same terms as an aircraft's flight
envelope. There are certain parts where it's no-go. Elsewhere,
you're fine with the right adaptations.
[i]
> > > > > [The coral buffer idea]
I'm planning to use a pH controller to drive my CO2 system. With this
I will have to be veeeeeery careful. It strikes me that if I've got
an arbitrarily large CaCO3 source (like a hunk o' coral) and a
feedback look controlling CO2 generation, I could end up with a race
condition: the end point would be fantastic CO2 concentration, skyhigh
kH, and dead fish.

So, that either imposes on me the duty to watch the foregoing system
like a hawk and withdraw the coral when kH is right, OR I'll just have
to get reagent-grade powdered chemicals to add in known quantities.


> Yes and no. On the surface, yes, as every change or risk of imbalance is
> magnified by a greater fishload (smaller tank), and larger tanks (100g+)
> move (parametrically) very slowly, almost establishing their own
> biotope-like balance if allowed to, but (there is always a but).... If
> it takes more time to 'affect' a larger tank, they also have much more
> momentum, so that the intitial correctve actions often appears
> ineffective. Coupled with the hobbyist's more relaxed approach with
> larger tanks (and who can blame us after so many test results appear so
> constant), that we sometimes get caught unawares ;~).

The proper way to approach this large-tank complacency, then, is to
use really precise (and accurate) test kits, and use them frequently.
Key, too, is to produce a log and/or graphical representation of the
parameters. With really fastidious data collection, I think one
stands a better chance of seeing if a smal variation in a test result
is within the "noise" to be expected.



> > > [snippety-snip]


> <snip>
> > If I target a pH of, say, 6 (and my gut feeling is that it can safely
> > be done) I'm not too worried about affecting the fishies adversely.
> > I'll bet that within reason dissolved C02 won't displace dissolved O2,
> > and the Cards will be fine.
>
> Yes, I've also read that O2 displacement by CO2 does not significantly
> occur in these applications. If your interest has you curious, would
> using a nitrogen/CO2 mix be more advantageous? I wonder what the plants
> would think of that? It would be a more natural mixture (as a ratio to
> CO2, not O2).

First, it would seem that my gut feeling, while technically correct,
would not have left me much wiggle room at all. At pH6, CO2 between
10-25 ppm (18ppm) you need to maintain kH of 0.6 (which I can't get,
even with my water, without diluting with RO). I certainly would NOT
want to play with kH=0.6 water in other than a quite large and
understocked tank.

Next, as to the idea of using an N2/CO2 mix for carbon dioxide
injection: I can think of a few reasons it mightn't be advantageous at
all. First, the tank water at large is already saturated with N2 from
the air, and available nitrogen *as nitrogen* is not important to a
system where nitrogen fixation is not taking place (e.g.
Rhizobium-using legumes in the terrestrial context). Second, a ten
pound tank of N2/CO2 contains less CO2, and I'd have to change it out
at a faster rate reflecting the proportion less than 100% of CO2 in
the mix.

Later, gator!
--Trapper

[Rocco Moretti]

Trapper wrote:

>>>>>>[The coral buffer idea]
>
> I'm planning to use a pH controller to drive my CO2 system. With this
> I will have to be veeeeeery careful. It strikes me that if I've got
> an arbitrarily large CaCO3 source (like a hunk o' coral) and a
> feedback look controlling CO2 generation, I could end up with a race
> condition: the end point would be fantastic CO2 concentration, skyhigh
> kH, and dead fish.

Chemistry wonks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it will
be a big problem. In solution you have the reaction:
Carbonic acid <=> Bicarbonate <=> Carbonate
The interconversions are acid/base reactions, so they're fast, and thus
probably at equilibrium with each other. This means that at a given pH,
the ratios between all three are constant (due to the law of mass
action). You also have a large reserve of coral (calcium carbonate).
When it dissolves, it breaks up into calcium and carbonate. If the
reaction is at equilibrium, the product of the calcium and carbonate
concentrations is constant (also by mass action). Let's assume that the
water is allowed to equilibrate with calcium carbonate before you turn
on your CO2 regulator.

You turn on the CO2, and the pH is slightly high. CO2 is pumped into the
system. This reacts with water and turns into carbonic acid which turns
into bicarbonate (since the ratios were disturbed), which then turns
into carbonate, which then reacts with the (now) excess calcium ions,
and crashes out, which lowers the carbonate concentration, which allows
more carbon to flow this way from CO2. You just added 2 H+ ions
(lowering the pH), but didn't increase the kH as much as if the carbon
hit a wall at the carbonate, as some of it crashed out. It's also true
that you lowered the pH, thus increasing the proportion of carbonic acid
and bicarbonate in solution (compared to carbonate), but this increase
just means that the next CO2 molecule just won't make it all the way to
carbonate. What you are worried about (more coral will dissolve with
increased acid addition) won't likely happen.

It's true that if you add an acid (say, hydrochloric) to your tank, you
increase the amount of bicarbonate and carbonic acid in your tank, but
since there isn't a supply from CO2, it comes from the carbonate end,
which is replenished by the dissolving calcium carbonate. If you add
carbonic acid (CO2), this increase comes from the carbonic acid end instead.

This is all theoretical though. Can anyone confirm/refute my reasoning?

-Rocco

[NetMax]

"Trapper" > wrote...
> "NetMax" > wrote...
> > "Trapper" > wrote...
> > > "NetMax" > wrote>...
> > > > "Trapper" > wrote...
> > > > > "NetMax" > wrote>...
> > > > > > "Trapper" > wrote...
> > > > > > > "Dan White" > wrote >...
> > > > > > > > "TYNK 7" > wrote...
> > > > > > > > [snippety-snip]
> > >
>
> > > [I wrote about tapwater purifiers, and RO units]
> >
> > I'm always skeptical about tapwater purifiers. Most of what I've
seen
> > were softener pillows which needed to be recharged, or types of
> > zeolite/activated carbon, which also had a finite operating life. If
the
> > natural conditions are fish-adaptable, then it's less work & expense
to
> > keep them that way.
>
> I've finally begun, slowly, to analyze my tapwater. The results so
> far have been interesting:
> pH @ zero time: 7.0
> pH @ 17hrs: ~7.2 (guesstimate; my test kit has 0.5pH increments)
>
> KH: 0.8

Your pH bump after outgassing sounds perfectly normal. The accuracy of
pH measurements (typical kit) is something like +- 0.4 absolute and 0.2
relative, so you're in the ballpark.

> I've yet to test for GH, so the picture's not really complete. My
> feeling, which I base solely on published NYC water analyses, is that
> GH is not going to be very high at all. The upshot of this is that,
> at least with respect to KH and GH, an RO unit or tapwater purifier is
> not going to buy me any advantages at all.
>
> It's still an open question whether it'd be worthwhile for nitrates
> (reportedly ~0.2 ppm out of the tap) and phosphates (reportedly ~2.1
> ppm out of the tap) and metals (unknown).
>
> Time to scope out a source of reagent-grade bicarb and CaCO3.
>
> > > [snip]
>
> > > [I muse about tapwater purifiers, RO units, water-change water
consistency,
> > > and topping off evaporative losses with RO]
> >
> > In theory, I'm in agreement, but the ability to use copious amounts
of
> > source water is an extremely valuable tool which I'm always reticent
to
> > give up. [Tinkering with it is] at your discretion, based on
experience,
> > confidence and the application.
>
> Based on the result of my KH testing, I'm sufficiently concerned with
> the buffering capacity of my water that I think I'll be forced to do
> *some* kind of modifications of the tapwater. Point taken, though;
> simplicity with this most fundamental component of the system is to be
> sought where possible.
>
> > > [More on RO, nitrates, phosphates, and plants]
> >
> > Nitrates are not a problem in low-fishload planted tanks. Some
hobbyists
> > add nitrates in these conditions. Also phosphates can be removed
with a
> > phosphate pillow if the need arose (just fyi).
>
> Okay, I am now tending toward the conclusion that the chief, if not
> entire, utility of an RO unit for me will be to produce water suitable
> for replacement of evaporative losses. Given the price here in NYC of
> a gallon of distilled water (several bucks, when you can find it)
> it'll be cost-effective in no time for me to get a $120 RO unit.

I don't understand the concern over the replenishment of your evaporated
water. In a marine (and brackish applications to a lesser degree), there
is a requirement to know and maintain (to some degree), the specific
gravity of the water. Once the SG is known, replacing evaporated water
with distilled water maintains that SG. This is also somewhat applicable
to hard-water applications which are brutally unmaintained (only topping
up with hard water without doing water changes will cause the hardness to
continue rising). None of these situations are applicable to running a
soft water tank. The extreme is actually more applicable. When you top
up, add water with some minerals to prop your gH/kH balance again.

> > > > Anecdotally, I was keeping Neon tetras [and lots of 'em, in
7.7pH,
> > > > 3dgH 2dkH water].
>
> There's got to be a chemistry lesson in this. Running your pH and kH
> through the formula:
> [CO2] = 3 * (kH) * 10^(7-pH)
> where kH = 36 ppm
> gives [CO2] ~ 1.2 ppm. Ambient [CO2] is said to be 3-5 ppm.
>
> It must be that there is other buffer funkiness going on in that
> system. Perhaps a significant buffer sink other than carbonate?
> Plants eating CO2 faster than the passive diffusion rate from
> air->water?

LOL, you caught that. The 'buffer sink' was lots of fish (commercial
tanks). A commercial 60g tank receives Neon tetras in quantities of
about 500 at a time (when I though there was still close to 200, I'd
scale the delivery back to 400. Also the CO2 calculation is precise but
the variables are not. To maintain acceptable parameters, the Neon Tetra
tank (to continue using this as an example) received a 10% water change
every 6 hours (automated), and fresh water ranged from 7.5 to 7.8pH. The
titration test for kH is also very coarse, turning on the 3rd drop, so
the kH in ppm was between 36 and 54 (not a very exact multiplier). The
tank was also heavily planted (almost 100% of the surface with a 3" tall
Sunset hygrophilia), so it was not gravel vacuumed. Many things
contribute to the math and this was one of about 40 different tetra tanks
running low kH, moderate pH conditions.

> > > [snip]
> > > > > > [The coral buffer idea]
> I'm planning to use a pH controller to drive my CO2 system. With this
> I will have to be veeeeeery careful. It strikes me that if I've got
> an arbitrarily large CaCO3 source (like a hunk o' coral) and a
> feedback look controlling CO2 generation, I could end up with a race
> condition: the end point would be fantastic CO2 concentration, skyhigh
> kH, and dead fish.
>
> So, that either imposes on me the duty to watch the foregoing system
> like a hawk and withdraw the coral when kH is right, OR I'll just have
> to get reagent-grade powdered chemicals to add in known quantities.

The advantage of using natural modifiers (dolomite, limestone, tufa,
marble, coral etc) over chemical modifiers is their self-adjusting and
progressive rate of influence. For example, the rate at which coral
breaks down releasing carbonates is a non-linear function dependant on
the acidity of the water. The more acidic the water, the more active the
coral, and in high pH/alkaline conditions, the coral approaches an inert
decoration. The minerals may not completely (or initially) do the job
needed, so some chemicals are used (to prop the kH) but the general
objective is to reach a sustainable chemical-free operation.

> > Yes and no. On the surface, yes, as every change or risk of
imbalance is
> > magnified by a greater fishload (smaller tank), and larger tanks
(100g+)
> > move (parametrically) very slowly, almost establishing their own
> > biotope-like balance if allowed to, but (there is always a but)....
If
> > it takes more time to 'affect' a larger tank, they also have much
more
> > momentum, so that the intitial correctve actions often appears
> > ineffective. Coupled with the hobbyist's more relaxed approach with
> > larger tanks (and who can blame us after so many test results appear
so
> > constant), that we sometimes get caught unawares ;~).
>
> The proper way to approach this large-tank complacency, then, is to
> use really precise (and accurate) test kits, and use them frequently.
> Key, too, is to produce a log and/or graphical representation of the
> parameters. With really fastidious data collection, I think one
> stands a better chance of seeing if a smal variation in a test result
> is within the "noise" to be expected.

That is one of several ways to achieve good results. Another method is
to very slowly increase your bio-load while monitoring the parameters
less agressively. Another method is to stabilize on a relatively small
(non-breeding) fish-load with a moderately high plant load, whose growth
rate will parallel the fish growth *and* the rate of detritus
accumulation to achieve a balance. Another method is to ignore
parameters and follow an agressive water changing routine. Another
method is an agressive removal of all solid wastes through maintenence
and filtration coupled with a water change routine designed to maintain a
minimum kH. Another is to routinely add something like sodium
bicarbonate to the change water.

A planted soft-water tetra tank lends itself to a combination of the well
planted / low fish-load / low-breeding probability / overfiltered
solution with regular water changes, and monitoring the kH to stay above
a described minimum (using natural modifiers), or using tannic acids
(driftwoods, peat etc) to achieve a simialr stabilization.

Keep in mind that my biased opinions are rooted in
i) I'm lazy, so I'll do lots of front-end research and work to achieve
the lowest possible running maintenence
ii) I want it to look natural, a cross-section of nature
iii) I want to maximize fish health by minimizing water-parameter bounce

> > > > [snippety-snip]
>
>
> > <snip>
> > > If I target a pH of, say, 6 (and my gut feeling is that it can
safely
> > > be done) I'm not too worried about affecting the fishies adversely.
> > > I'll bet that within reason dissolved C02 won't displace dissolved
O2,
> > > and the Cards will be fine.
> >
> > Yes, I've also read that O2 displacement by CO2 does not
significantly
> > occur in these applications. If your interest has you curious, would
> > using a nitrogen/CO2 mix be more advantageous? I wonder what the
plants
> > would think of that? It would be a more natural mixture (as a ratio
to
> > CO2, not O2).
>
> First, it would seem that my gut feeling, while technically correct,
> would not have left me much wiggle room at all. At pH6, CO2 between
> 10-25 ppm (18ppm) you need to maintain kH of 0.6 (which I can't get,
> even with my water, without diluting with RO). I certainly would NOT
> want to play with kH=0.6 water in other than a quite large and
> understocked tank.

My understanding is that the chemical properties at work do not strictly
follow the formula. The carbonic-acid induced balance very quickly
normalizes when the CO2 injection is removed, causing the pH to bounce
back to the true equilibrium. The way I look at it, the objective is to
achieve a non-CO2 working balance, and then add CO2 for entertainment
purposes (and achieve your new artificial balance). Achieving a
*working* balance with injected CO2 seems somewhat precarious, and best
left to experienced hobbyists running more than one tank. imo, if you
only have one tank to play with, get your working balance established and
then you can tweak with a bit of CO2 as you become more comfortable with
the processes taking place (just general advice and not particularly
directed at anyone).

> Next, as to the idea of using an N2/CO2 mix for carbon dioxide
> injection: I can think of a few reasons it mightn't be advantageous at
> all. First, the tank water at large is already saturated with N2 from
> the air, and available nitrogen *as nitrogen* is not important to a
> system where nitrogen fixation is not taking place (e.g.
> Rhizobium-using legumes in the terrestrial context). Second, a ten
> pound tank of N2/CO2 contains less CO2, and I'd have to change it out
> at a faster rate reflecting the proportion less than 100% of CO2 in
> the mix.

re: N2, oh well, it was just an idea :o). Thanks for the entertaining,
educational and engaging post Trapper.
cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Later, gator!
> --Trapper