African Cichlid Community Tank

[Jamie]

Need a bit of help... I would consider myself a well-versed ichthyologist. I have fully planted aquariums and have breed a wide variety of fish from egg layers to bubble nest builders, but never African Cichlid. I finally have the chance to make the switch, I have maintained them before, just never had them myself, and I thought I had a good handle in what I could put in the tank with them, but someone shook my confidence today at work. I would like to put Tiger Barbs, some Leporanious Facti (sp?) and a variety of your run of the mill African cichlid togeather, thought I had seen it done before. Who has had success with others in their tanks with the African Cichlids? Any suggestions? I am currently in an Eclipse 12 fully planted, but I am also going to be getting a bigger tank, 55gal.

[Margolis]

Go ahead and put the other fish in. The africans will need something to eat
;o)



--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[[email protected]]

Jamie,

You are making the common mistake of assuming African Cichlids are all
the same. There are over a thousand African Cichlids from the smallest
at about one inch to the largest at about three foot. They vary from
algae eaters to super predators. You will need to be more specific to
get an answer to your question.


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Sokar]

I keep 5 Bucktooth Tetras in a 65 gallon tank with 3 Green 8 inch Pike
cichlids and seven Tropheus Duboisi cichlids. I also keep about 10 Debauwi
Catfish in a smaller 30 gallon cichlid tank. There are no hard and fast
rules about mixing different types of fish in a cichlid tank.

When you overcrowd a cichlid tank, it forces a community tank feeling upon
the tankmates.


"Jamie" > wrote in message
...
>
> Need a bit of help... I would consider myself a well-versed
> ichthyologist. I have fully planted aquariums and have breed a wide
> variety of fish from egg layers to bubble nest builders, but never
> African Cichlid. I finally have the chance to make the switch, I have
> maintained them before, just never had them myself, and I thought I had
> a good handle in what I could put in the tank with them, but someone
> shook my confidence today at work. I would like to put Tiger Barbs,
> some Leporanious Facti (sp?) and a variety of your run of the mill
> African cichlid togeather, thought I had seen it done before. Who has
> had success with others in their tanks with the African Cichlids? Any
> suggestions? I am currently in an Eclipse 12 fully planted, but I am
> also going to be getting a bigger tank, 55gal.
>
>
> --
> Jamie

[agent smith]

there most certainly are rules! when you mix lakes, you stress the fish out.
different lakes have different water parameters, not to mention the
different lake fish also have different dietary needs. different lakes
CANNOT be mixed.

--
Be sure to check out http://home.satx.rr.com/satxcichlids
for information on my fishies! also, sign up for a *FREE*
ipod here:
http://www.freeiPods.com/default.aspx?referer=9570045
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewootech/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewoolanos/
http://www.geocities.com/daewoolanoshatchback/
contact info:


remove UNDIES to reply :D

[Sokar]

The local pet stores, Petsmart, ect., do not charge their water parameters
for their cichlid fish, but please note that they want to sell you water
conditioners, pH adjusters for your tank, and special dietary food for your
fish in your "special" African tank.

Marketing rules, "profits are us" rules, are meant to be broken.

"agent smith" > wrote in message
...
> there most certainly are rules! when you mix lakes, you stress the fish
> out. different lakes have different water parameters, not to mention the
> different lake fish also have different dietary needs. different lakes
> CANNOT be mixed.
>
> --
> Be sure to check out http://home.satx.rr.com/satxcichlids
> for information on my fishies! also, sign up for a *FREE*
> ipod here:
> http://www.freeiPods.com/default.aspx?referer=9570045
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewootech/
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewoolanos/
> http://www.geocities.com/daewoolanoshatchback/
> contact info:
>
>
> remove UNDIES to reply :D
>

[Elaine T]

agent smith wrote:
> there most certainly are rules! when you mix lakes, you stress the fish out.
> different lakes have different water parameters, not to mention the
> different lake fish also have different dietary needs. different lakes
> CANNOT be mixed.
>

The cichlid guru at LFS where I worked taught me that most of the Malawi
"haplochromes" are fine with rock dwelling Tanganyikans. They can
live on a similar diet, but occupy a different part of the water column.
This actually makes for a very attractive tank. Malawi fish can adapt
to Tanganyika water and vice-versa, just as neons can adapt to hard
water. The only time you need to be super-careful of water chemistry is
if you're trying to keep wild fish and get F1 progeny.

Following his advice, I had a pair of S. ahli in with small rock
dwelling tanganyikans in Tanganyika chemistry. All the Tanganyikans
promptly set up breeding colonies. The S. ahli also had great color and
bred, and the male lived for 7 years (he killed his mate and I left him
solo). I never saw signs of water chemistry related stress in any fish.

Agreed that mbuna would be difficult to mix with micropredatory
Tanganyikans. The diets are very different and the mbuna would probably
succumb to Malawi bloat.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Amateur Cichlids]

"Sokar" > wrote in message
...
> The local pet stores, Petsmart, ect., do not charge their water parameters
> for their cichlid fish, but please note that they want to sell you water
> conditioners, pH adjusters for your tank, and special dietary food for
> your fish in your "special" African tank.
>
> Marketing rules, "profits are us" rules, are meant to be broken.
>

I personally don't buy fish from shops like Wal*Mart, or any other shop
that sells "Mixed Africans". When N. leleupi were first imported, they were
kept in soft water. None of the imported fish lived longer than a year. The
people here thought they required the same water conditions as the West
African cichlids they'd imported in the past.
Hardier fish like many of the Mbuna can be acclimated to different water
conditions and be mixed with other fish. And if you feed them the wrong
thing and they die, well that's a four dollar fish dead. If you buy a
Cyathopharynx foae and mix it with the wrong fish and it gets stressed and
dies, well now you've killed a hundred dollar fish. Your views on water
conditions and mixing may change a bit. These are fish you'll not find
currently at places like Wal*mart.
If you're so sure it's only a marketing ploy, I think we should conduct
a test. Go purchase yourself some Xenotilapia sp "papilio" from Lake
Tanganyika and acclimate them to a tank with a pH of about 6 and a hardness
below three. Then toss a few Melanochromis in the tank. By your thinking,
you'll have nothing to worry about, the fish will thrive and be happy so
long as you pack enough fish in there. If you can get them to live say 6 X.
sp "papilio" and 6 M. auratus in a 55 gallon tank with no deaths for a year,
I'd be willing to pay for the fish. ;-)
Being uneducated in the interactions between certain species and having
a few fish live together for more than a month, does not make you an expert.
I don't claim to be an expert myself, but I've lost fish when I started by
mixing incompatible species, and I've lost fish to improper water
parameters. I prefer to research now and keep my fish in their proper
environments to protect my investment.
Tim
www.fishaholics.org

[Sokar]

All of the Tropical Fish Stores in my Metropolitan Area (300,000+
population) do not adjust the water parameters of their water for African
cichlids. Also, all of these Tropical/Marine fish stores sell their fish
from at least one tank called mixed cichlids. I suspect that Petsmart, which
has about six stores in this area, sells about 10 times more fish than all
of these smaller tropical fish stores combined.

What economic advantage is it to them (Petsmart) to keep their fish in poor,
life threatening, water conditions, as you claim they are doing.

For the record, I do buffer my cichlid's water with Seachem's
Malawi/Victoria Buffer, but the freshwater fish who swim in the same tank
with them, seem to be a healthy lot, dispite my misguided efforts on their
behalf.

"Amateur Cichlids" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Sokar" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The local pet stores, Petsmart, ect., do not charge their water
>> parameters for their cichlid fish, but please note that they want to sell
>> you water conditioners, pH adjusters for your tank, and special dietary
>> food for your fish in your "special" African tank.
>>
>> Marketing rules, "profits are us" rules, are meant to be broken.
>>
>
> I personally don't buy fish from shops like Wal*Mart, or any other shop
> that sells "Mixed Africans". When N. leleupi were first imported, they
> were kept in soft water. None of the imported fish lived longer than a
> year. The people here thought they required the same water conditions as
> the West African cichlids they'd imported in the past.
> Hardier fish like many of the Mbuna can be acclimated to different
> water conditions and be mixed with other fish. And if you feed them the
> wrong thing and they die, well that's a four dollar fish dead. If you buy
> a Cyathopharynx foae and mix it with the wrong fish and it gets stressed
> and dies, well now you've killed a hundred dollar fish. Your views on
> water conditions and mixing may change a bit. These are fish you'll not
> find currently at places like Wal*mart.
> If you're so sure it's only a marketing ploy, I think we should conduct
> a test. Go purchase yourself some Xenotilapia sp "papilio" from Lake
> Tanganyika and acclimate them to a tank with a pH of about 6 and a
> hardness below three. Then toss a few Melanochromis in the tank. By your
> thinking, you'll have nothing to worry about, the fish will thrive and be
> happy so long as you pack enough fish in there. If you can get them to
> live say 6 X. sp "papilio" and 6 M. auratus in a 55 gallon tank with no
> deaths for a year, I'd be willing to pay for the fish. ;-)
> Being uneducated in the interactions between certain species and having
> a few fish live together for more than a month, does not make you an
> expert. I don't claim to be an expert myself, but I've lost fish when I
> started by mixing incompatible species, and I've lost fish to improper
> water parameters. I prefer to research now and keep my fish in their
> proper environments to protect my investment.
> Tim
> www.fishaholics.org
>
>

[Amateur Cichlids]

"Sokar" > wrote in message
...
> All of the Tropical Fish Stores in my Metropolitan Area (300,000+
> population) do not adjust the water parameters of their water for African
> cichlids. Also, all of these Tropical/Marine fish stores sell their fish
> from at least one tank called mixed cichlids. I suspect that Petsmart,
> which has about six stores in this area, sells about 10 times more fish
> than all of these smaller tropical fish stores combined.
>
> What economic advantage is it to them (Petsmart) to keep their fish in
> poor, life threatening, water conditions, as you claim they are doing.
>
<snip>

I think you may be missing my point completely. Petsmart, Wal*Mart, etc,
etc do not sell expensive tropical fish. They don't carry some of the nicer
fish one may find in Lake Tanganyika, because "They're too aggressive" or
"They're too hard to keep alive.". Much of which is bull, but I've heard it
from numerous shops in my area. These little shops and big chains for their
African cichlids selection, they carry "Mixed Africans" which come from
their supplier that way. These are cheap fish that cost these big chains
little. If they lose a couple fish in the week they spend in the store, it's
not a big loss to the store. As I mentioned with the N. leleupi that were
imported and put in soft water, they died within a year. It's not an instant
death in many cases. These are fish that should be living many, many years.
I enjoy my tanks and I enjoy the programming on my site. If you don't
feel the need to match fish to conditions to prolong their life, that's your
perogative. If you feel your fish will live just as long as mine will, more
power to you. I can only pass on what I've learned and give the point of
view of the biologists and ichthyologists. Either way, it really doesn't
matter to me. Happy fish keeping. =)
Tim

My thoughts on the Mixed Africans can be found in this article.
http://www.fishaholics.org/articles.php?ArtId=1

[bassett]

Also , I think you will agree, that fish in Aquarium's , pet shops, are
only there for a relative short time. It's up to you, the new owner to
provide the correct conditions. and who knows what some of these shops add
to the water, to keep the fish looking good.
bassett


"Amateur Cichlids" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sokar" > wrote in message
> ...
>> All of the Tropical Fish Stores in my Metropolitan Area (300,000+
>> population) do not adjust the water parameters of their water for African
>> cichlids. Also, all of these Tropical/Marine fish stores sell their fish
>> from at least one tank called mixed cichlids. I suspect that Petsmart,
>> which has about six stores in this area, sells about 10 times more fish
>> than all of these smaller tropical fish stores combined.
>>
>> What economic advantage is it to them (Petsmart) to keep their fish in
>> poor, life threatening, water conditions, as you claim they are doing.
>>
> <snip>
>
> I think you may be missing my point completely. Petsmart, Wal*Mart,
> etc, etc do not sell expensive tropical fish. They don't carry some of the
> nicer fish one may find in Lake Tanganyika, because "They're too
> aggressive" or "They're too hard to keep alive.". Much of which is bull,
> but I've heard it from numerous shops in my area. These little shops and
> big chains for their African cichlids selection, they carry "Mixed
> Africans" which come from their supplier that way. These are cheap fish
> that cost these big chains little. If they lose a couple fish in the week
> they spend in the store, it's not a big loss to the store. As I mentioned
> with the N. leleupi that were imported and put in soft water, they died
> within a year. It's not an instant death in many cases. These are fish
> that should be living many, many years.
> I enjoy my tanks and I enjoy the programming on my site. If you don't
> feel the need to match fish to conditions to prolong their life, that's
> your perogative. If you feel your fish will live just as long as mine
> will, more power to you. I can only pass on what I've learned and give the
> point of view of the biologists and ichthyologists. Either way, it really
> doesn't matter to me. Happy fish keeping. =)
> Tim
>
> My thoughts on the Mixed Africans can be found in this article.
> http://www.fishaholics.org/articles.php?ArtId=1
>
>

[Jamie]

Ok, this is more of the answer I was looking for, I understand that there are many varieties of chlids out there, I am going to start off slow and rescue a few from my local Petco. I am partial to the Tiger Barbs, always wanted some but felt they were too aggressive for fish I was keeping at the time. I know that the ones that are currently at my local Petco are sick but I also know that the "Aquatic Specialist" there is an idiot so I plan on rescuing them as well... I wish I could rescue them all in fact.
:(

So sad. Wish I had the will power to boycott them all together…




I keep 5 Bucktooth Tetras in a 65 gallon tank with 3 Green 8 inch Pike
cichlids and seven Tropheus Duboisi cichlids. I also keep about 10 Debauwi
Catfish in a smaller 30 gallon cichlid tank. There are no hard and fast
rules about mixing different types of fish in a cichlid tank.

When you overcrowd a cichlid tank, it forces a community tank feeling upon
the tankmates.


"Jamie" wrote in message
...

Need a bit of help... I would consider myself a well-versed
ichthyologist. I have fully planted aquariums and have breed a wide
variety of fish from egg layers to bubble nest builders, but never
African Cichlid. I finally have the chance to make the switch, I have
maintained them before, just never had them myself, and I thought I had
a good handle in what I could put in the tank with them, but someone
shook my confidence today at work. I would like to put Tiger Barbs,
some Leporanious Facti (sp?) and a variety of your run of the mill
African cichlid togeather, thought I had seen it done before. Who has
had success with others in their tanks with the African Cichlids? Any
suggestions? I am currently in an Eclipse 12 fully planted, but I am
also going to be getting a bigger tank, 55gal.


--
Jamie

[Jamie]

You are correct, pet stores, Petsmart, etc. do not change their water parameters, for anything, they also do weekly water changes (or should do) and generally the people in those beginner pet places barely know anything...

What most people do not know is that the breeders don't do not change their water parameters either... the more chemicals you dump in your tank make it harder on your fish, with the ups and downs in pH and the like, I to have found fish are happy when you do frequent water changes. People do not believe me when I tell them how long my fish live (recently lost my oldest fish my mommy corycat that was over 10 years old – she had a good run)

The only exception I make is when you’re setting up the tank and water changes, I use the cycling aids like biozyme help a bunch, salt and de-chlorinator.


The local pet stores, Petsmart, ect., do not charge their water parameters
for their cichlid fish, but please note that they want to sell you water
conditioners, pH adjusters for your tank, and special dietary food for your
fish in your "special" African tank.

Marketing rules, "profits are us" rules, are meant to be broken.

"agent smith" wrote in message
...
there most certainly are rules! when you mix lakes, you stress the fish
out. different lakes have different water parameters, not to mention the
different lake fish also have different dietary needs. different lakes
CANNOT be mixed.

--
Be sure to check out http://home.satx.rr.com/satxcichlids
for information on my fishies! also, sign up for a *FREE*
ipod he
http://www.freeiPods.com/default.aspx?referer=9570045
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewootech/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewoolanos/
http://www.geocities.com/daewoolanoshatchback/
contact info:


remove UNDIES to reply :D

[LoisLaneTX]

Are you in San Antonio, Texas??

LoisLaneTX


"agent smith" > wrote in message
...
> there most certainly are rules! when you mix lakes, you stress the fish
> out. different lakes have different water parameters, not to mention the
> different lake fish also have different dietary needs. different lakes
> CANNOT be mixed.
>
> --
> Be sure to check out http://home.satx.rr.com/satxcichlids
> for information on my fishies! also, sign up for a *FREE*
> ipod here:
> http://www.freeiPods.com/default.aspx?referer=9570045
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewootech/
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewoolanos/
> http://www.geocities.com/daewoolanoshatchback/
> contact info:
>
>
> remove UNDIES to reply :D
>

[Jamie]

No, I am near Houston.
=)
Would like to add that I have purchased the 5 tiger barbs, 5 red zebra mbuna and 2 kenyis and they all are doing fine togeather... they are not even eating my plants as much as i thought they would. bought some base rock and they really seem to love hiding in all the noocks and crannies, still have plenty of room in my tank, i was even thinking of getting maybe some more kenyis and maybe some (yellow) labs.

my thought is that if I over load it (doing frequent water changes) the fish won't know who to fight with... or eat.




Are you in San Antonio, Texas??

LoisLaneTX

[/i][/color]

[Deepseafisher]

Yeah, its called overstocking for aggression, and is a generally good
idea. You don't want to push the biological limit on your tank too much,
but with enough fish, there will be no big problems with aggression. Its
one of those things that are hard to understand, but work none the less.



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