View Full Version : building gunite koi pond
hi, we're building a pond this year out of gunite and plan to keep koi
in it. are there issues we should be aware of with respect to toxicity
(or anything harmful)? we plan to paint the pond black and have
several water plants.
thanks
~Roy~
March 17th 05, 09:02 PM
Not promoting the product or anything but have you checked into the
sprayed polyurea ponds........no painting needed as it can be colored
to whatever color you want. I would think it would be on par pricewise
as gunite.
On 17 Mar 2005 12:20:44 -0800, wrote:
>===<>hi, we're building a pond this year out of gunite and plan to keep koi
>===<>in it. are there issues we should be aware of with respect to toxicity
>===<>(or anything harmful)? we plan to paint the pond black and have
>===<>several water plants.
>===<>
>===<>thanks
==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
Sean Dinh
March 17th 05, 09:23 PM
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
A fresh gunite or concrete pond leach out quite a bit of chemicals in the
water. Since you will paint it, there is no need to worry.
wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>hi, we're building a pond this year out of gunite
and plan to keep koi
<br>in it. are there issues we should be aware of with respect to
toxicity
<br>(or anything harmful)? we plan to paint the pond black and have
<br>several water plants.
<p>thanks</blockquote>
</html>
~Roy~
March 17th 05, 10:08 PM
There is a way to artificially age the concrete, so that most of
everything that will leach out is removed. Other than that method, it
just takes a long time to get the concrete / gunite to a stage that it
will efectively hold paint thats applied to it. I certainly would not
want a routine of having to paint any pond. Yes, there is paints and
finishes that will stay on a concrete surface, even less that will do
a good job of staying on a submerged concrete surface.........so to me
a concrete painted surface sounds like too much work overall in the
long run.
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:23:28 -0800, Sean Dinh >
wrote:
>===<>
==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
sorry, am a bit slow... if i'm reading the comments correctly, there is
an issue with gunite/concrete leaching chems. what are the measures to
correctly make a gunite pond "safe" for koi?
~Roy~
March 18th 05, 01:05 AM
On 17 Mar 2005 16:31:55 -0800, wrote:
>===<>sorry, am a bit slow... if i'm reading the comments correctly, there is
>===<>an issue with gunite/concrete leaching chems. what are the measures to
>===<>correctly make a gunite pond "safe" for koi?
Yes, any concrete product (lime) will make your ponds GH and PH go off
the scale in the alkaline range. It takes time for all the exposed and
excess lime to leech out of the cement. This time frame can range
from weeks to months and even years..... Coating "green" concrete
products with a coating before they are aged usually leads to the
product not adhering well, which results in peeling and bubbling of
the coating.......so there again it takes time for a concrete pond to
cure sufficiently before its coated. Paint or specialty coverings will
have a recomended method of time for cure before applying products,
and a lot of them also state to etch concrete with an acid based
product to get rid of any loose or potential for any stuff to leech
and make the coating loose in the process.
Here is a link to how to treat your concrete / gunite pond before
adding fish or painting it.
You will have to sign up on this individuals board, but its easy and
not a problem. This individual knows the ins and outs of doing this
and his method can be trusted as can any other info on his website.
http://www.click2roark.com
What your looking for is on the left side of the page under the TECH
info area....Leeching Concrete.
Don;t mind this fellows gruff attitude with words, he is just trying
to get his point accross to lots of hard headed folks, and he is
rather a pretty well laid back individual that knows his stuff.
Hope this sheds some light on what needs to be done with concrete when
used in a pond.
==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
~Roy~
March 18th 05, 12:31 PM
Polyurea is a spray on liner.....There are quite a few different brand
names for the stuff but its all polyurea. A lot fdepends on the soil
its applied to. Some soils need a geotextile backing material, others
do not.
I know of a lot of folks that have had polyureas ponds made and they
all like it........Be sure to do you r homework on the company that
you choose for one however. While it seems the material itself is the
same, there are many many methods for application of the material. At
present there really is no set of standards that apply, only the
references from folks that have them and the company itself in regards
to its reputation.
There is quite a bit of info regarding polyureas spray in liner ponds
on koiphen.com. Well worth looking at if your interested in a poly
pond.
On 18 Mar 2005 02:45:59 -0800, wrote:
>===<>hi, has anyone had any success with spray on liners. is this something
>===<>an installer needs to do or is it a diyer? if the former, any recs for
>===<>someone to be able to do this in the Northern VA (DC) area?. i assume
>===<>a gunite shell (or similar) would still need to be made before applying
>===<>this spray on liner.
>===<>
>===<>thanks!
==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
~ jan JJsPond.us
March 19th 05, 07:13 AM
>On 18 Mar 2005 02:45:59 -0800, wrote:
>
>>===<>hi, has anyone had any success with spray on liners.
There was a good article on these in KOI USA, I think it was the Jan/Feb
issue. You want someone who knows what they're doing, that's for sure.
~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
anyone know what they're doing in DC/No VA area? :-)
small fish
March 19th 05, 03:41 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> hi, we're building a pond this year out of gunite and plan to keep koi
> in it. are there issues we should be aware of with respect to toxicity
> (or anything harmful)? we plan to paint the pond black and have
> several water plants.
How does the price of gunite compare to an EPDM liner? Specifically, if
all the prep such as rebar and mesh is already in place. I have concerns
about a certain swimming yard mammal and her claws if I just use a liner.
~ jan JJsPond.us
March 19th 05, 07:51 PM
> How does the price of gunite compare to an EPDM liner? Specifically, if
>all the prep such as rebar and mesh is already in place. I have concerns
>about a certain swimming yard mammal and her claws if I just use a liner.
The Koi USA article was in the Nov/Dec issue. "Polyurea Elastomer Spray
Liners: Wow!" by Nancy Moore & Lucy Macneil. Tim Zuber is the VP of Applied
Resin Technology, Inc., in Woodinville, WA he can be reached at
(425-483-0323) or
As far as durability, "The strength and elasticity of the product do make
it nearly immune to damage." Then they talk about the time they went to set
a 7,000+ lb. granite rock and the track hoe operator, at full extension of
his machine, lost control of the stone and it dropped 9'. The rounded end
landing in an area approx. 12"X18", punching a crater in the substrate
(gravel over the liner) a foot deep, the liner was unharmed. There is a
picture of this, btw. One of the few times having rocks (as a cushion) on
the bottom of the pond was a good thing. There was no water in the pond, so
thankfully no critters either. ~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
~Roy~
March 19th 05, 10:24 PM
I know a fellow who did a lot of reasearch and spent a ot of time on
building his pond. He went with spray on polyurea, and lives in
Virginia........Guess its oging on its second year now, and its great
looking. This felllow is quite a nit picker and he is satisfied. I
know he posted the entire deal from start to finish on koiphen.com,
but do not know if he has a website (sort of doubt he does) but the
info is still available on Koiphen.com
On 19 Mar 2005 02:37:08 -0800, wrote:
>===<>anyone know what they're doing in DC/No VA area? :-)
==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
Captain Blood
March 19th 05, 10:45 PM
If you want to see the schematics of the President of the Midwest Koi
Club's pond you can go here: http://www.pondkoi.com/opp_0001.htm
You can also email him and he loves to help.
small fish
March 19th 05, 11:42 PM
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> > How does the price of gunite compare to an EPDM liner? Specifically,
if
> >all the prep such as rebar and mesh is already in place. I have concerns
> >about a certain swimming yard mammal and her claws if I just use a liner.
>
> The Koi USA article was in the Nov/Dec issue. "Polyurea Elastomer Spray
> Liners: Wow!" by Nancy Moore & Lucy Macneil. Tim Zuber is the VP of
Applied
> Resin Technology, Inc., in Woodinville, WA he can be reached at
> (425-483-0323) or
>
> As far as durability, "The strength and elasticity of the product do make
> it nearly immune to damage." Then they talk about the time they went to
set
> a 7,000+ lb. granite rock and the track hoe operator, at full extension of
> his machine, lost control of the stone and it dropped 9'. The rounded end
> landing in an area approx. 12"X18", punching a crater in the substrate
> (gravel over the liner) a foot deep, the liner was unharmed. There is a
> picture of this, btw. One of the few times having rocks (as a cushion) on
> the bottom of the pond was a good thing. There was no water in the pond,
so
> thankfully no critters either. ~ jan
I guess my question was confusing considering the thread drift to two
different spray-on products and the comparison to EPDM irrelevant. I should
have just asked how expensive a gunite installation was, which is the
concrete spray-on stuff.
But, thanks for the info on the polyurea application. I prefer less
plastic, more natural, but it does sound like this stuff is tough. It also
ties in with kathy's link to natural swimming pools, as I can't imagine
staying out of the water when temperatures get hot here, as well as the
swimming dog.
hey roy, do you have a link or name? i tried searching the forums at
koiphen with little success.
thanks
~Roy~
March 20th 05, 01:24 AM
Its BillOTMS.........The pond itself starts here:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12
But the initial start of spraying poly etc starts somewhere around
post number #35 or so......Its a long long thread lots of good pics
too. Title of post is: "Loch Liam - The Legend Continues"
Another link with Polyurea content and pics is titled:
GAtor Guard update
On 19 Mar 2005 15:46:01 -0800, wrote:
>===<>hey roy, do you have a link or name? i tried searching the forums at
>===<>koiphen with little success.
>===<>
>===<>thanks
==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
RichToyBox
March 20th 05, 02:03 AM
Look at the MAKC Web page http://www.makc.com/ and there is a link on the
right of executive members and committees. I personally know Wayne, Art,
David and Floyd are knowledgeable about the members with concrete ponds in
the Northern Virginia Area, the problems and benefits, and most of the
installers. These should be good sources. I listed first names only, but
they are the only ones with those first names.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"small fish" > wrote in message
news:1111275769.db623e4a640d82a5778a51269a3eb826@t eranews...
>
> "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > How does the price of gunite compare to an EPDM liner? Specifically,
> if
>> >all the prep such as rebar and mesh is already in place. I have concerns
>> >about a certain swimming yard mammal and her claws if I just use a
>> >liner.
>>
>> The Koi USA article was in the Nov/Dec issue. "Polyurea Elastomer Spray
>> Liners: Wow!" by Nancy Moore & Lucy Macneil. Tim Zuber is the VP of
> Applied
>> Resin Technology, Inc., in Woodinville, WA he can be reached at
>> (425-483-0323) or
>>
>> As far as durability, "The strength and elasticity of the product do make
>> it nearly immune to damage." Then they talk about the time they went to
> set
>> a 7,000+ lb. granite rock and the track hoe operator, at full extension
>> of
>> his machine, lost control of the stone and it dropped 9'. The rounded end
>> landing in an area approx. 12"X18", punching a crater in the substrate
>> (gravel over the liner) a foot deep, the liner was unharmed. There is a
>> picture of this, btw. One of the few times having rocks (as a cushion) on
>> the bottom of the pond was a good thing. There was no water in the pond,
> so
>> thankfully no critters either. ~ jan
>
> I guess my question was confusing considering the thread drift to two
> different spray-on products and the comparison to EPDM irrelevant. I
> should
> have just asked how expensive a gunite installation was, which is the
> concrete spray-on stuff.
> But, thanks for the info on the polyurea application. I prefer less
> plastic, more natural, but it does sound like this stuff is tough. It also
> ties in with kathy's link to natural swimming pools, as I can't imagine
> staying out of the water when temperatures get hot here, as well as the
> swimming dog.
>
>
small fish
March 20th 05, 02:45 AM
Thanks for the link. The "How Much Does It Cost To Build a Proper Koi
Pond" article was very enlightening. They have some other great articles to
read, as well.
I am reminded again that I will stick with a water garden pond, and have
been vacillating between EPDM and concrete. The pond that my sister and I
built years ago for our mother, before any info was available, was a classic
example of mistakes and fixes.
So, my pond will take all that and the info here into consideration. The
gunite offers an intriguing option. I'll see what they have to say.
"RichToyBox" > wrote in message
...
> Look at the MAKC Web page http://www.makc.com/ and there is a link on the
> right of executive members and committees. I personally know Wayne, Art,
> David and Floyd are knowledgeable about the members with concrete ponds in
> the Northern Virginia Area, the problems and benefits, and most of the
> installers. These should be good sources. I listed first names only, but
> they are the only ones with those first names.
> --
> RichToyBox
> http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
>
> "small fish" > wrote in message
> news:1111275769.db623e4a640d82a5778a51269a3eb826@t eranews...
> >
> > "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> > How does the price of gunite compare to an EPDM liner?
Specifically,
> > if
> >> >all the prep such as rebar and mesh is already in place. I have
concerns
> >> >about a certain swimming yard mammal and her claws if I just use a
> >> >liner.
> >>
> >> The Koi USA article was in the Nov/Dec issue. "Polyurea Elastomer Spray
> >> Liners: Wow!" by Nancy Moore & Lucy Macneil. Tim Zuber is the VP of
> > Applied
> >> Resin Technology, Inc., in Woodinville, WA he can be reached at
> >> (425-483-0323) or
> >>
> >> As far as durability, "The strength and elasticity of the product do
make
> >> it nearly immune to damage." Then they talk about the time they went to
> > set
> >> a 7,000+ lb. granite rock and the track hoe operator, at full extension
> >> of
> >> his machine, lost control of the stone and it dropped 9'. The rounded
end
> >> landing in an area approx. 12"X18", punching a crater in the substrate
> >> (gravel over the liner) a foot deep, the liner was unharmed. There is a
> >> picture of this, btw. One of the few times having rocks (as a cushion)
on
> >> the bottom of the pond was a good thing. There was no water in the
pond,
> > so
> >> thankfully no critters either. ~ jan
> >
> > I guess my question was confusing considering the thread drift to two
> > different spray-on products and the comparison to EPDM irrelevant. I
> > should
> > have just asked how expensive a gunite installation was, which is the
> > concrete spray-on stuff.
> > But, thanks for the info on the polyurea application. I prefer less
> > plastic, more natural, but it does sound like this stuff is tough. It
also
> > ties in with kathy's link to natural swimming pools, as I can't imagine
> > staying out of the water when temperatures get hot here, as well as the
> > swimming dog.
> >
> >
>
>
~ jan JJsPond.us
March 20th 05, 07:31 AM
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:24:17 GMT, (~Roy~) wrote:
>Its BillOTMS.........The pond itself starts here:
>http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12
Wow, great pictures. Of interest are those Flow Forms he used for the water
fall. I was wondering if anyone has ever seen one of these in person, or a
US dealer that sells them? Or something similar in a plastic or resin form?
~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
~Roy~
March 20th 05, 02:29 PM
Yepper, Bill has spent many many a long hour researching on building a
pond right from the start and it came out first class. I know that
thread is a very very long thread, but its a most interesting thread
to see that pond evolve from a "nekid" back yard to what it is
today......
I have seem what resemble large seashells look like a clam shell or
scallop type shell that was made out of resin, that that could be
used for the same thing. The local concrete ornamental place here has
some various forms in concrete as well.....so I would think they are
available , just have to find them in your area.
One really nice thing about polyurea ponds is the pond can be altered
at any time, by making it smller or larger or changing its shape,
without the worry of it leaking at the joints, such as is a problem
like trying to get concrete to seal to previously hardened concrete,
or seaming a liner.......and you can get it in a solid through and
through choice of colors.
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:31:24 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote:
>===<>On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:24:17 GMT, (~Roy~) wrote:
>===<>
>===<>>Its BillOTMS.........The pond itself starts here:
>===<>>http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12
>===<>
>===<>Wow, great pictures. Of interest are those Flow Forms he used for the water
>===<>fall. I was wondering if anyone has ever seen one of these in person, or a
>===<>US dealer that sells them? Or something similar in a plastic or resin form?
>===<>~ jan
>===<>
>===<> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
PondFactory.com
March 29th 05, 07:55 AM
There are also paint-on water based latex liners that can be directly
applied to concrete that seal out the lime that leeches back into the
water.
It's relativly cheap, looks a LOT better than a 'tarp' liner, and is
actually LEGAL in all 50 states. Out here in California there are a lot
of EPA guidelines etc... that make the toxic based illegal (not that
you should be using them anyway).
I've used them and their not much worse than plain latex. Liquid latex
uses amonia to make it set. It's a bit stinky, but it's not all that
bad compared.
If you want to know more, please drop me a line.
what the heck is gunite anyway?
webmaster
http://www.pondkoi.com
RichToyBox
March 29th 05, 08:02 PM
Gunite or shot-crete is pneumatically placed concrete, where it is sprayed
against the soil, or against a form, trimmed to shape and finished. No
major formwork required. Also allows for more natural curves than plywood
does.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> what the heck is gunite anyway?
>
> webmaster
> http://www.pondkoi.com
>
Derek Broughton
March 29th 05, 08:49 PM
RichToyBox wrote:
> Gunite or shot-crete is pneumatically placed concrete, where it is sprayed
> against the soil, or against a form, trimmed to shape and finished. No
> major formwork required. Also allows for more natural curves than plywood
> does.
Well, duh! I've known for years _what_ gunite was, but it never occurred to
me that it actually was called that because of the use of a "gun". Really,
language doesn't _have_ to be complex! Thanks, Rich.
--
derek
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