Betta fins suddenly shredded

[Elaine T]

Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.

I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.

Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
pretty normally, and nobody's talking.

What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
> woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
> total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
> immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
> ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
> extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
> months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
> moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.
>
> I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
> coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
> wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
> nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.
>
> Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
> glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
> back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
> fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
> pretty normally, and nobody's talking.
>
> What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
> fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
> feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
> damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Hi Elaine,
Didn't one of your bettas shred his own tail after seeing a mirror....or
maybe that was someone else. Perhaps an explanation....

Gill

[IDzine01]

Hmm.

You got me stumped Elaine. I can't answer the cyanobacteria toxin
question without some research. So, my first guess is...

1. cleaning the filter and doing 50% water changes could cause a mini
cycle. If your tests are old or if you're using dip stick tests you
might not be getting accurate readings. Perhaps there's a problem with
the test. (I'm totally reaching here and I don't think this so
probable, but ya never know)

2. Maybe they did just what you said... jumped... fought and jumped
back. It's TOTALLY not impossible. I lost a betta once. It jumped out
of a whole the size of a quarter. A QUARTER! They can maneuver through
impossible spaces. Plus, they both are showing signs of tattered fins.
Chances are if it were fin rot, one would show signs first then the
other.

Like you, I use clean water and TLC to heal shredded fins. I don't
indorse salt baths or Melafix. Others really like Melafix and find it
helpful when healing fin damage not caused by fin rot (bacterial). I
have heard of allergic reactions and possible damage that could be done
to the labyrinth organ though, so I don't bother with it.

[Daniel Morrow]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
> woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
> total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
> immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
> ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
> extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
> months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
> moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.
>
> I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
> coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
> wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
> nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.
>
> Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
> glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
> back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
> fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
> pretty normally, and nobody's talking.
>
> What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
> fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
> feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
> damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

That happened to my male betta once and the only other fish in with it was a
female betta. It seemed to happen overnight and there was practically no
fins left. I chalked it up to the female attacking him in the dark and he
seemed relatively unaffected by it despite the fin damage. I did absolutely
nothing and he healed so well I couldn't notice any sign of it ever
happening. The only worry I would have if I were you elaine is if you were
going to enter your bettas in a show that judges on the quality of the fins,
and after they heal you still might not have any problem. But if you want to
treat the wounds just in case I don't see any reason why you couldn't as
long as it isn't too extreme and risky. Do you have a gravel substrate in
the tank? If you do I am beginning to wonder about yours and mine
experiences as caused by male bettas dragging their tales in the dark on
some gravel? Just an idea as it's important to find out the root cause of
the problem to try and prevent it from ever happening again. Good luck and
keep your cool, later Dan!

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
>>woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
>>total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
>>immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
>>ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
>>extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
>>months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
>>moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.
>>
>>I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
>>coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
>>wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
>>nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.
>>
>>Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
>>glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
>>back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
>>fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
>>pretty normally, and nobody's talking.
>>
>>What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
>>fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
>>feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
>>damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> Hi Elaine,
> Didn't one of your bettas shred his own tail after seeing a mirror....or
> maybe that was someone else. Perhaps an explanation....
>
> Gill
>
>
One did, but he only got his tail, and it was finally growing out. This
is far worse.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

IDzine01 wrote:
> Hmm.
>
> You got me stumped Elaine. I can't answer the cyanobacteria toxin
> question without some research. So, my first guess is...
>
> 1. cleaning the filter and doing 50% water changes could cause a mini
> cycle. If your tests are old or if you're using dip stick tests you
> might not be getting accurate readings. Perhaps there's a problem with
> the test. (I'm totally reaching here and I don't think this so
> probable, but ya never know)

I only cleaned the filter after the fins shredded to be sure it was
working. Seemed fine, but that's when I found all the cyanobacter. It
was just a 50% water change this weekend. My test is dry-tab and
usually works. *scratching head*

> 2. Maybe they did just what you said... jumped... fought and jumped
> back. It's TOTALLY not impossible. I lost a betta once. It jumped out
> of a whole the size of a quarter. A QUARTER! They can maneuver through
> impossible spaces. Plus, they both are showing signs of tattered fins.
> Chances are if it were fin rot, one would show signs first then the
> other.
>
> Like you, I use clean water and TLC to heal shredded fins. I don't
> indorse salt baths or Melafix. Others really like Melafix and find it
> helpful when healing fin damage not caused by fin rot (bacterial). I
> have heard of allergic reactions and possible damage that could be done
> to the labyrinth organ though, so I don't bother with it.
>
Thanks. You really know bettas so I feel better. I'm suspicious of the
carriers that make the water all bubbly in Melafix anyway.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Daniel Morrow wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
>>woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
>>total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
>>immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
>>ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
>>extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
>>months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
>>moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.
>>
>>I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
>>coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
>>wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
>>nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.
>>
>>Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
>>glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
>>back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
>>fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
>>pretty normally, and nobody's talking.
>>
>>What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
>>fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
>>feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
>>damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> That happened to my male betta once and the only other fish in with it was a
> female betta. It seemed to happen overnight and there was practically no
> fins left. I chalked it up to the female attacking him in the dark and he
> seemed relatively unaffected by it despite the fin damage. I did absolutely
> nothing and he healed so well I couldn't notice any sign of it ever
> happening. The only worry I would have if I were you elaine is if you were
> going to enter your bettas in a show that judges on the quality of the fins,
> and after they heal you still might not have any problem. But if you want to
> treat the wounds just in case I don't see any reason why you couldn't as
> long as it isn't too extreme and risky. Do you have a gravel substrate in
> the tank? If you do I am beginning to wonder about yours and mine
> experiences as caused by male bettas dragging their tales in the dark on
> some gravel? Just an idea as it's important to find out the root cause of
> the problem to try and prevent it from ever happening again. Good luck and
> keep your cool, later Dan!
>
>
There's no gravel in the tank, and only java moss and floating
watersprite so nothing they could tear fins on. This sounds just like
your male betta - shredded overnight and half the fins gone. *poof* I
wasn't planning on showing these fish. I'd just like to see the fish
healthy again.

I'm going to test the water daily for a while and do 25% changes every
other day. More important, I've got the place where they maybe could
have jumped across covered.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[IDzine01]

Oh, I also wanted to mention that I have had major shredded fins occur
when I'm not carful with ph testing. My tap water is more alkaline then
my tank water so if I'm not careful and change too much water (50%) the
pH levels fluctuate more then the .2 safe range. That's when I notice
shredding on my old betta.

I actually haven't heard anyone verify that pH fluctuations can cause
shredded fins so I can't say for sure if this is true, but I have seen
it a few times now and it's consistant with pH fluctuations.

Maybe someone can verify or discount this theory for me. I'd like to
know.

Thanks,
christie

[Elaine T]

IDzine01 wrote:
> Oh, I also wanted to mention that I have had major shredded fins occur
> when I'm not carful with ph testing. My tap water is more alkaline then
> my tank water so if I'm not careful and change too much water (50%) the
> pH levels fluctuate more then the .2 safe range. That's when I notice
> shredding on my old betta.
>
> I actually haven't heard anyone verify that pH fluctuations can cause
> shredded fins so I can't say for sure if this is true, but I have seen
> it a few times now and it's consistant with pH fluctuations.
>
> Maybe someone can verify or discount this theory for me. I'd like to
> know.
>
> Thanks,
> christie
>
Really? I did big water changes Friday and Sunday since I've been
battling algae growing on the java moss. I wanted to lower phosphates.
Seems like Sunday to Wednesday is kind of a long gap but that makes
more sense than anything else I've come up with. My tap water is
alkaline and variable - I've tested it as high as pH 8. The pH of the
betta tank usually stays fairly close because there's no gravel to trap
anything but I didn't test this time.

Does the shredding you take a few days after the pH change and then
happen literally overnight?

Happily, the little guys are looking fine in every other way.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Derek Benson]

On Wed, 18 May 2005 19:00:28 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
>woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
>total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
>immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
>ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
>extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
>months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
>moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.
>
>I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
>coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
>wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
>nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.
>
>Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
>glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
>back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
>fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
>pretty normally, and nobody's talking.
>
>What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
>fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
>feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
>damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?

Do you live alone, or are there other people in your household? If
you're not alone, after you went to bed someone else moved one of the
bettas to the other side because they wanted to see a fight. After the
fighting the betta was moved back.

Otherwise one of your bettas jumped over the partition in that 2 cm
area and then jumped back. This isn't unlikely at all, except for the
fact that it had to jump back the way it came, which does seem a bit
weird. How high was the water level compared to this 2cm space? Like
1cm from the water up to that area, or 5 cm? 1 or 2 cm can't be any
problem for a betta to jump, even though it has to hit that specific
small area.

I won't believe for one second that cyanobacteria or ammonia or pH
variations or anything else similar will cause a bettas fins to tatter
overnight. It sounds from your description that the fins are
physically ripped apart; these other "chemical" types of things, if
they are so bad as to cause a problem, would be likely to cause fins
to rot away over time, as if the fish has fin and tail rot, don't you
think?

Bettas fins always grow back out by themselves, don't do anything
different than what you usually do with the bettas.

-Derek

[Alpha]

"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 18 May 2005 19:00:28 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
>>Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
>>woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
>>total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
>>immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
>>ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
>>extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
>>months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
>>moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.
>>
>>I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
>>coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
>>wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
>>nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.
>>
>>Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
>>glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
>>back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
>>fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
>>pretty normally, and nobody's talking.
>>
>>What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
>>fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
>>feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
>>damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?
>
> Do you live alone, or are there other people in your household? If
> you're not alone, after you went to bed someone else moved one of the
> bettas to the other side because they wanted to see a fight. After the
> fighting the betta was moved back.
>
> Otherwise one of your bettas jumped over the partition in that 2 cm
> area and then jumped back. This isn't unlikely at all, except for the
> fact that it had to jump back the way it came, which does seem a bit
> weird. How high was the water level compared to this 2cm space? Like
> 1cm from the water up to that area, or 5 cm? 1 or 2 cm can't be any
> problem for a betta to jump, even though it has to hit that specific
> small area.
>
> I won't believe for one second that cyanobacteria or ammonia or pH
> variations or anything else similar will cause a bettas fins to tatter
> overnight. It sounds from your description that the fins are
> physically ripped apart; these other "chemical" types of things, if
> they are so bad as to cause a problem, would be likely to cause fins
> to rot away over time, as if the fish has fin and tail rot, don't you
> think?
>
> Bettas fins always grow back out by themselves, don't do anything
> different than what you usually do with the bettas.
>
> -Derek

I have a betta alone in an Eclipse and had the same overnight shredding.
There is gravel and the intake for the eclipse, but no plants or other
objects. It always mystified me as it happens whenever I get a betta. I
have never seen the betta rub on the gravel.....

[Derek Benson]

On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:06:46 -0700, "Alpha" > wrote:

>I have a betta alone in an Eclipse and had the same overnight shredding.
>There is gravel and the intake for the eclipse, but no plants or other
>objects. It always mystified me as it happens whenever I get a betta. I
>have never seen the betta rub on the gravel.....
>
>
I don't know what an Eclipse is, but could it have been sucked onto
the intake to the filter, shredding the fins?

-Derek

[Elaine T]

Derek Benson wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2005 19:00:28 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
>>woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
>>total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
>>immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
>>ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
>>extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
>>months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
>>moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.
>>
>>I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
>>coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
>>wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
>>nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.
>>
>>Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
>>glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
>>back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
>>fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
>>pretty normally, and nobody's talking.
>>
>>What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
>>fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
>>feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
>>damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?
>
>
> Do you live alone, or are there other people in your household? If
> you're not alone, after you went to bed someone else moved one of the
> bettas to the other side because they wanted to see a fight. After the
> fighting the betta was moved back.
>
> Otherwise one of your bettas jumped over the partition in that 2 cm
> area and then jumped back. This isn't unlikely at all, except for the
> fact that it had to jump back the way it came, which does seem a bit
> weird. How high was the water level compared to this 2cm space? Like
> 1cm from the water up to that area, or 5 cm? 1 or 2 cm can't be any
> problem for a betta to jump, even though it has to hit that specific
> small area.
>
> I won't believe for one second that cyanobacteria or ammonia or pH
> variations or anything else similar will cause a bettas fins to tatter
> overnight. It sounds from your description that the fins are
> physically ripped apart; these other "chemical" types of things, if
> they are so bad as to cause a problem, would be likely to cause fins
> to rot away over time, as if the fish has fin and tail rot, don't you
> think?
>
> Bettas fins always grow back out by themselves, don't do anything
> different than what you usually do with the bettas.
>
> -Derek

There's just me, fish, shrimp, and snails in the house, so unless the
mystery snail in the next tank over cruised over and moved a betta,
that's not the answer. Sensible idea, though.

The water was high enough for an easy jump. The divider is plastic
canvas to the top of the tank, and the glass cover almost against the
HOB filter intake. If I put it flush, it rattles. I thought the filter
intake was in the way enough to prevent such a mishap. Obviously not.
:-( I have made any further jumping impossible with more canvas.

The damage does look physical, and not at all like fin or tail rot.
That's why I was so shocked by the suddenness of it. With toxic water,
I would expect to see white edges, fairly even damage (the dorsals are
nearly perfect on both fish), and behavioral signs of stress.

Good to know that I can do my usual clean water thing even for fins this
damaged.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Alpha]

"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:06:46 -0700, "Alpha" > wrote:
>
>>I have a betta alone in an Eclipse and had the same overnight shredding.
>>There is gravel and the intake for the eclipse, but no plants or other
>>objects. It always mystified me as it happens whenever I get a betta. I
>>have never seen the betta rub on the gravel.....
>>
>>
> I don't know what an Eclipse is, but could it have been sucked onto
> the intake to the filter, shredding the fins?
>

http://www.marineland.com/products/consumer/con_eclipse.asp



No to your question.

[Daniel Morrow]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> IDzine01 wrote:
> > Oh, I also wanted to mention that I have had major shredded fins occur
> > when I'm not carful with ph testing. My tap water is more alkaline then
> > my tank water so if I'm not careful and change too much water (50%) the
> > pH levels fluctuate more then the .2 safe range. That's when I notice
> > shredding on my old betta.
> >
> > I actually haven't heard anyone verify that pH fluctuations can cause
> > shredded fins so I can't say for sure if this is true, but I have seen
> > it a few times now and it's consistant with pH fluctuations.


That is interesting, I was playing with ph up when that happened to my male
betta over a decade ago, it's possible as I see it that ph fluctuations can
cause this. But I must say - in elaine's case I think it's just very clever
and always surprising bettas, my empty bet is that one of her bettas jumped
the divider, fought with the other one and jumped back or something similar.
I know they can really jump (bettas) as every once in a while when I had my
betta (and female betta at times) it would jump straight up and ram into my
aquarium glass cover with a lot of force and a big banging sound, I think
only the female did this though and I think that's what eventually killed
her by putting her into terminal shock. Good luck, and later!
> > Maybe someone can verify or discount this theory for me. I'd like to
> > know.
> >

I'd like to know too.


> > Thanks,
> > christie
> >
> Really? I did big water changes Friday and Sunday since I've been
> battling algae growing on the java moss. I wanted to lower phosphates.
> Seems like Sunday to Wednesday is kind of a long gap but that makes
> more sense than anything else I've come up with. My tap water is
> alkaline and variable - I've tested it as high as pH 8. The pH of the
> betta tank usually stays fairly close because there's no gravel to trap
> anything but I didn't test this time.
>
> Does the shredding you take a few days after the pH change and then
> happen literally overnight?
>
> Happily, the little guys are looking fine in every other way.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
> woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
> total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
> immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
> ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
> extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
> months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
> moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.
>
> I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
> coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and
> was wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
> nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.
>
> Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
> glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
> back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
> fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
> pretty normally, and nobody's talking.
>
> What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
> fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
> feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
> damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><


Self-induced damage from a fit of posturing at each other? Disease won't
usually cause synchronized symptoms. Even water parameters take some
time unless at a real extreme.

If one had paid his neighbour a visit, it's too bad that you didn't find
them in opposite sides ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tynk]

It's very possible for male Bettas to hop from side to side for fight
and then flip back over into his own side.
This is main reason I don't keep divided male Betta tanks. I keep them
in either 1g's, 2 1/2g's, or 3g's by themsleves.
The females I keep in my 75g with my Angelfish.
I've seen Bettas jump through the smallest of openings.
It's amazing how good their aim is when flopping out of the water,
through a hole or wriggling through a space to have either a fight or
to spawn, and then find their way back again.

[Richard Sexton]

>I won't believe for one second that cyanobacteria or ammonia or pH
>variations or anything else similar will cause a bettas fins to tatter
>overnight. It sounds from your description that the fins are
>physically ripped apart; these other "chemical" types of things, if
>they are so bad as to cause a problem, would be likely to cause fins
>to rot away over time, as if the fish has fin and tail rot, don't you
>think?

Cyanobacteria is caused by high ammonia and low nitrate. By the time you
have a bynch of it it's used the ammonia so it'll test 0. But with ammonia
in the tank anyprotozoal disease can take over very quickly. It's easyt to
miss the beginnings of this and they can seeeminly overnight go from
what looked like a perfect fish to a tattered mess.

Acriflavine cures this 99% of the time. Anything similar should
work. An of these owuld work too:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/alternatives/



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[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>I won't believe for one second that cyanobacteria or ammonia or pH
>>variations or anything else similar will cause a bettas fins to tatter
>>overnight. It sounds from your description that the fins are
>>physically ripped apart; these other "chemical" types of things, if
>>they are so bad as to cause a problem, would be likely to cause fins
>>to rot away over time, as if the fish has fin and tail rot, don't you
>>think?
>
>
> Cyanobacteria is caused by high ammonia and low nitrate. By the time you
> have a bynch of it it's used the ammonia so it'll test 0. But with ammonia
> in the tank anyprotozoal disease can take over very quickly. It's easyt to
> miss the beginnings of this and they can seeeminly overnight go from
> what looked like a perfect fish to a tattered mess.
>
> Acriflavine cures this 99% of the time. Anything similar should
> work. An of these owuld work too:
>
> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/alternatives/
>
>
>
That makes more sense than a fish jumping across, fighting to less than
the death, and jumping back. And nitrates are low because of the clumps
of java moss and floating watersprite in the tank.

Funny you should post this today. I was actually thinking of adding
copper, formalin/malachite, or permanganate this morning because I just
wasn't quite convinced it was a fight. I almost bought acriflavine at
the pet store today and decided against it because I didn't want to kill
all the nitrifying bacteria in the tank.

I'll go with formalin/malachite since it won't trash my filter, I have
it around, and it works for most protozoans. Hopefully it won't inhibit
fin regrowth if it was a fight.

Thanks!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Tynk]

Elaine T May 18, 3:00 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
From: Elaine T > - Find messages by this author

Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:00:28 GMT
Local: Wed,May 18 2005 3:00 pm
Subject: Betta fins suddenly shredded
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original | Report Abuse

Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking

total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night.


Hi Elaine. I reposted your original post that explained what you found
the next morning.
Fine the night before, and absolutely shredded by morning does sound
like one hopped over divider.
Don't dismiss that so lightly. It is *very* possible and the main
reason i do NOT divide male Betta tanks, as well have lids on any of
them that are next to one another.
These fish are very capable at aiming their bodies through a very small
place...and getting back.

[Tynk]

I remember I had this new male in quarantine.
I keep the quarantine fish away from all my other fish.
I was in the kitchen and kept hearing plunk...clunk, plink, plunk,
bonk, etc....repeatedly.
Turns out it was one of the new males trying to get out of his
quarantine container. He was hitting the underside of the lid.
2 yr ago one of my lovely white males jumped through a hole no bigger
than 1/2" wide and little longer. He happened to jump right in front of
sleeping cat. He was "tasted" a bit and then left.
Good thing I found him when I did. He was just laying there, a few
holes in him where the cat had tasted him, bloody and almost all dried
out.
He survived his injuries, amazingly and never jumped through that hole
again! lol
(I didn't punish the cat as she did nonthing wrong. I mean heck, a fish
falls out of the sky and all, hehe.
She could have eaten him, or killed him, but she didn't. She just had a
taste and then went back to sleep. = )~

[Elaine T]

Tynk wrote:
> Elaine T May 18, 3:00 pm show options
>
> Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
> From: Elaine T > - Find messages by this author
>
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:00:28 GMT
> Local: Wed,May 18 2005 3:00 pm
> Subject: Betta fins suddenly shredded
> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
> original | Report Abuse
>
> Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
> woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
>
> total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night.
>
>
> Hi Elaine. I reposted your original post that explained what you found
> the next morning.
> Fine the night before, and absolutely shredded by morning does sound
> like one hopped over divider.
> Don't dismiss that so lightly. It is *very* possible and the main
> reason i do NOT divide male Betta tanks, as well have lids on any of
> them that are next to one another.
> These fish are very capable at aiming their bodies through a very small
> place...and getting back.
>
I sure wish I could have seen what happened. Well...a round of
formalin/malachite won't hurt anything and Richard's idea fits too.
There is NO gap now in the divider so they cannot do it again. I guess
that's what I get for rescuing too many bettas. :-(

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Tynk]

Nah....you can never, ever, ever have too many Bettas.
I mean, I don't even really understand that whole thing..too many, LOL.
= )~
Now on the other hand, my Hubby may tell you a different story. = )

Just do like me...get more tanks. = )
Also...if you have tanks that have a cabinet stand...that's usuable
tank space. I have 2 1/2g's (regular shaped, AllGlass brand tanks) in
rows under my 75g. I also had one in the 29g's cabinet.
Kitchen counters are great too. (Hubby put his foot down on that one
when I'm not spawning Bettas, so I only have the 3g Eclipse tank in the
corner of the counter. It was dead space anyway, as it went pretty deep
back there, and nothing ever looked right back there. That was until I
put the 3g Eclipse there. It looks as if it were made for that spot.
Even the Hubby likes it. That says a lot!
However, when I have Betta fry I keep them in 2 1/2g tanks on the
counter for the first few weeks. I like to keep a close eye on them,
watch the temp closely and feeding them several times a day, is made so
much easier when they're right there. Tried it with them inside the
tank cabinet and forget it. Got a "crick" in my neck checking on them
so often, lol.

[Elaine T]

The bettas' fins are growing back much more rapidly than I had hoped
with generous feedings and frequent small water changes. I also treated
with formalin/malachite just to be sure there wasn't a protozoal
disease. Of course, I have made absolutely sure that there is no way
the bettas could get to each other now.

I've found that floating water sprite will grow on ambient light in that
tank, so now the tank has both java moss and water sprite. I'm hoping
that having more plants and adequate nitrate levels will stop the
cyanobacter from growing on the off chance it's a problem.

Thanks for all the advice and help,
Elaine

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[lia]

Oh, I also wanted to mention that I have had major shredded fins occur
when I'm not carful with ph testing. My tap water is more alkaline then
my tank water so if I'm not careful and change too much water (50%) the
pH levels fluctuate more then the .2 safe range. That's when I notice
shredding on my old betta.

I actually haven't heard anyone verify that pH fluctuations can cause
shredded fins so I can't say for sure if this is true, but I have seen
it a few times now and it's consistant with pH fluctuations.

Maybe someone can verify or discount this theory for me. I'd like to
know.

Thanks,
christie

Hi Christie, I just noticed that my betta fish, Cyril has the beginnings of shredding on the top edge of his tail. (so it can't be from dragging his tail on gravel at night.) I just did a 20% water change yesterday and now that I am testing the water I see that it is very alkaline. I freaked out and started googling immediately, which is how I found your post. I think I may be experiencing the same thing you are. Did your fish heal? what did you do to fix the situation? Thanks!
Lia