Am I Getting Hosed?

[Tom Burns]

So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
tons of great stuff.

I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".

Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
appreciated.

BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.

Heres the tale of the tape:

AG Modern cherry canopy
ag. flo. starip 48" black
ag glass top
ag 90 gal w/overflow
ag cherry stand
ag modern cherry overflow
$1499.00
CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
$1249.99
SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
$349.00
BIOBALLS PER GALLON
10 X $9.99=$99.00
HI TECH
$150.00
BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
$299.00
RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
$99.99
CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
2 FOR $89.98
RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
$289.00
LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
$349.99
22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
$649.99
RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
$36.99
CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
$149.99
AM SOLENOID VALVE
$129.00
AM CO2 REGULATOR
$179.99
PINPOINT PH MONITOR
$189.99
RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
$249.99
AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
$116
PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
$279.99
IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
$39.99
RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
$59.99
CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
$39.99
ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
SAL****ER TEST KIT
$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99

GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32


?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????

[Marc Levenson]

Okay, I know that the conversion rate for U.S.D. wasn't included in your post,
but I think you are getting "hosed".

If you've never had a sal****er tank, please read this first:
http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm

Now, about the stuff you will need, I'll list them and you can see some prices
that I'd expect to pay, typically online rather than the LFS. Also, I will
mention some of the items you do not want or need.

90g Tank (glass & reef ready) - $200 to $350
Stand and Canopy - could cost little or a lot depending on what you want in your
home. $150 to $600?
100gpd 5-stage RO/DI unit - $150
Ebo Jager 200w heater - $25 to $40
pH Pinpoint Monitor - $90
Refractometer (for salinity readings) - $50 to $70
Calcium Reactor - $250 to $400 plus:
CO2 tank - $75
Regulator & Auto shut off solenoid - $125 (reef fanatic.com)
200g Kent Sea Salt - $50 to $70
Aragonite Substrate 300 lbs worth - don't know... Southdown Playsand is your
cheapest option, if you can get it.
125 lbs of Live Rock - if ordered online, probably $450 or so.
Test kits (Salifert) - $100
MH Lighting - $450 to $500 for dual 250w Ushio 10,000K bulbs and ballasts, and
reflectors.
Actinic VHO supplementation - $200 with IceCap 430 ballast and 2 URI VHO 110w
bulbs.
Sump $200 or so.
Aqua C EV-120 (or 180) Protein Skimmer - $350 to $400
Mag 9.5 return pump - $60 to $80
Grounding Probe - $20 - $25
Total not including sand - less than $4000, with all new items. My math was
with the high side of all the numbers listed above.

NO BIOBALLS - they create nitrates!
NO RIO POWERHEADS - they can fail (especially the 2100 and 2500 models) and
short out, frying a tank!

If you can find some of these items used, you'll save a lot. Some people sell
entire setups for half of retail, because they are moving or getting out of the
hobby.

Marc


Tom Burns wrote:

> So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
> total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
> tons of great stuff.
>
> I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
> stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
> long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
> than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
> quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
> week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
> Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
> start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
> the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
> stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
> credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
> instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
> because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
> got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
> quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
> obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".
>
> Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
> insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
> Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
> yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.
>
> Heres the tale of the tape:
>
> AG Modern cherry canopy
> ag. flo. starip 48" black
> ag glass top
> ag 90 gal w/overflow
> ag cherry stand
> ag modern cherry overflow
> $1499.00
> CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
> $1249.99
> SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
> $349.00
> BIOBALLS PER GALLON
> 10 X $9.99=$99.00
> HI TECH
> $150.00
> BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
> $299.00
> RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
> $99.99
> CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
> 2 FOR $89.98
> RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
> $289.00
> LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
> $349.99
> 22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
> $649.99
> RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
> $36.99
> CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
> $149.99
> AM SOLENOID VALVE
> $129.00
> AM CO2 REGULATOR
> $179.99
> PINPOINT PH MONITOR
> $189.99
> RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
> $249.99
> AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
> $116
> PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
> $279.99
> IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
> $39.99
> RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
> $59.99
> CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
> $39.99
> ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
> SAL****ER TEST KIT
> $ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99
>
> GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32
>
> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[David McKay]

You're getting hosed. Looks like Big Al's strikes again. The prices on many
of those items - especially the lighting - are roughly double what you
should be paying in Canada. They're also selling you more stuff than you'll
need, and not selling you other stuff - like live rock - that you'll need.
Plus, some of the components are crappy - if you're going to spend that kind
of money, get the best.

Just an example of the overpricing, on the Pinpoint monitors:

PH Monitor - your quote $189.99, price at J&L $129.99
Salinity Monitor - your quote $279.99, price at J&L $169.50

You can check out the J&L web site at www.jlaquatics.com They're located in
B.C. I've ordered a bunch of stuff from them, and it arrived here in Ottawa
within a few days. Before I found them, I too got hosed on several items at
Big Al's.

Regards,

Dave.

"Tom Burns" > wrote in message
...
> So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
> total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
> tons of great stuff.
>
> I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
> stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
> long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
> than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
> quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
> week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
> Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
> start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
> the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
> stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
> credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
> instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
> because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
> got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
> quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
> obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".
>
> Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
> insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
> Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
> yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.
>
> Heres the tale of the tape:
>
> AG Modern cherry canopy
> ag. flo. starip 48" black
> ag glass top
> ag 90 gal w/overflow
> ag cherry stand
> ag modern cherry overflow
> $1499.00
> CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
> $1249.99
> SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
> $349.00
> BIOBALLS PER GALLON
> 10 X $9.99=$99.00
> HI TECH
> $150.00
> BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
> $299.00
> RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
> $99.99
> CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
> 2 FOR $89.98
> RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
> $289.00
> LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
> $349.99
> 22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
> $649.99
> RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
> $36.99
> CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
> $149.99
> AM SOLENOID VALVE
> $129.00
> AM CO2 REGULATOR
> $179.99
> PINPOINT PH MONITOR
> $189.99
> RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
> $249.99
> AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
> $116
> PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
> $279.99
> IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
> $39.99
> RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
> $59.99
> CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
> $39.99
> ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
> SAL****ER TEST KIT
> $ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99
>
> GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32
>
>
> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????
>

[Thomas Bishop]

"Tom Burns" > wrote in message

Yeah, you're getting hosed. I'll break it down for you and others can chime
in too.

> Heres the tale of the tape:
>
> AG Modern cherry canopy
> ag. flo. starip 48" black
> ag glass top

These are usually included with a tank. See if he can take the strip light
and canopy out. You won't need it with the halide bulbs and hood below.

> ag 90 gal w/overflow
> ag cherry stand
> ag modern cherry overflow
> $1499.00

That sounds WAY too expensive. If it's reef ready (predrilled with
overflow), as it seems to be, it will boost the price. But it shouldn't be
that much. For what you have listed so far I paid about $250 for (of course
in 55 gallons, not 90 and not reef ready).

> CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
> $1249.99

If I was quoted a price like that for lights then I would never go back in
the store. Check out www.ahsupply.com for aquarium lighting. Metal halide
is a good choice, but that price and that low wattage is awful.

> SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
> $349.00
> BIOBALLS PER GALLON
> 10 X $9.99=$99.00
> HI TECH
> $150.00

I don't know what the MultiReer or Hi Tech is, but lose the bioballs. Do a
Google search to find out why.

> BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
> $299.00
> RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
> $99.99

I don't know about the price of the skimmer, but you can find that by
searching the Web. A lot of people have had problems with Rios, but mine
has worked just fine.

> CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
> 2 FOR $89.98
> RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
> $289.00

VHO actinic light usually suppliments metal halide and that seems like a
fair price. I don't know what the "Rainbow" is, but for $289 I can tell you
that you won't need it that badly.

> LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
> $349.99
> 22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
> $649.99
> RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
> $36.99
> CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
> $149.99
> AM SOLENOID VALVE
> $129.00
> AM CO2 REGULATOR
> $179.99

Lose the calcium reactor and all things above related to it. Do a Google
search for Kalkwasser and save yourself some money. Of course, if you have
the money for a calcium reactor, go for it.

> PINPOINT PH MONITOR
> $189.99
> RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
> $249.99
> AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
> $116
> PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
> $279.99

Lose the fancy monitors. You've got the test kits below. A little extra
time and old fashioned, but it works and doesn't cost much. The wavemaker
and another powerhead is good but you can do without a wavemaker if you
want. They are nice, though.

> IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
> $39.99
> RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
> $59.99
> CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
> $39.99

Again, lose the fancy gadgets, unless you have the cash. Put a stick-on
thermometer on the outside glass. You do need a heater, though, and that
looks like a good price.

> ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
> SAL****ER TEST KIT
> $ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99

That seems about right. Do a search for DSB and Southdown. That will not
only give you a great source of biological filtration, but save you some
money (by buying Southdown).

[Thomas Bishop]

"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message...
> Okay, I know that the conversion rate for U.S.D. wasn't included in your
post,
> but I think you are getting "hosed".

Ontario! That would explain why the prices seemed EXTREMELY outrageous. Oh
well, they're still probably too high, judging by David's post.

[Richard Reynolds]

I agree w/o doing the math, your getting hozed !

> If you've never had a sal****er tank, please read this first:
> http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm

to make a few mods to marc's wise advise, also in USD


> Refractometer (for salinity readings) - $50 to $70

IMO skip it now, buy it later if you feel the need, a $10(usd) swingarm can be good
enough, and IF you can calibrate it with a good refract IMO its even better as your more
inclined to test often, and not skip testing.

> Calcium Reactor - $250 to $400 plus:
you can find new reactors good for 90gal tanks for around $150

> CO2 tank - $75
buy this at a welding place, a used one in good shape will only set you back about $40

> Regulator & Auto shut off solenoid - $125 (reef fanatic.com)
IF your welding place will get it for you, you can get these for as low as $50 for dual
gauge regulator/ solenoid / bubble counter / needle valve, the tank guage for co2 is next
to worthless but it wont hurt anything :)

> Aqua C EV-120 (or 180) Protein Skimmer - $350 to $400
I am a needle wheel fan so T-1000 or euroreef :)

> If you can find some of these items used, you'll save a lot. Some people sell
> entire setups for half of retail, because they are moving or getting out of the
> hobby.

:)

> Marc

--
Richard Reynolds

[area 51]

"Tom Burns" > wrote in message
...
> So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as
a
> total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons
and
> tons of great stuff

<BIG SNIP>
With all that money to spend you are heading for a total disaster.
All you need to spend is a few pounds on a decent book and research on
the web.
Read read read, and don't be in such a almighty hurry.
If you are the impatient sort, *wrong* pastime.

[Tom Burns]

Thanks for the info.
BTW-I've read just about eveything on your site. It's excellent. Thanks
for maintaining a great site too.



Marc Levenson wrote:
> Okay, I know that the conversion rate for U.S.D. wasn't included in your post,
> but I think you are getting "hosed".
>
> If you've never had a sal****er tank, please read this first:
> http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm
>
> Now, about the stuff you will need, I'll list them and you can see some prices
> that I'd expect to pay, typically online rather than the LFS. Also, I will
> mention some of the items you do not want or need.
>
> 90g Tank (glass & reef ready) - $200 to $350
> Stand and Canopy - could cost little or a lot depending on what you want in your
> home. $150 to $600?
> 100gpd 5-stage RO/DI unit - $150
> Ebo Jager 200w heater - $25 to $40
> pH Pinpoint Monitor - $90
> Refractometer (for salinity readings) - $50 to $70
> Calcium Reactor - $250 to $400 plus:
> CO2 tank - $75
> Regulator & Auto shut off solenoid - $125 (reef fanatic.com)
> 200g Kent Sea Salt - $50 to $70
> Aragonite Substrate 300 lbs worth - don't know... Southdown Playsand is your
> cheapest option, if you can get it.
> 125 lbs of Live Rock - if ordered online, probably $450 or so.
> Test kits (Salifert) - $100
> MH Lighting - $450 to $500 for dual 250w Ushio 10,000K bulbs and ballasts, and
> reflectors.
> Actinic VHO supplementation - $200 with IceCap 430 ballast and 2 URI VHO 110w
> bulbs.
> Sump $200 or so.
> Aqua C EV-120 (or 180) Protein Skimmer - $350 to $400
> Mag 9.5 return pump - $60 to $80
> Grounding Probe - $20 - $25
> Total not including sand - less than $4000, with all new items. My math was
> with the high side of all the numbers listed above.
>
> NO BIOBALLS - they create nitrates!
> NO RIO POWERHEADS - they can fail (especially the 2100 and 2500 models) and
> short out, frying a tank!
>
> If you can find some of these items used, you'll save a lot. Some people sell
> entire setups for half of retail, because they are moving or getting out of the
> hobby.
>
> Marc
>
>
> Tom Burns wrote:
>
>
>>So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
>>total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
>>tons of great stuff.
>>
>>I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
>>stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
>>long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
>>than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
>>quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
>>week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
>>Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
>>start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
>>the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
>>stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
>>credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
>>instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
>>because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
>>got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
>>quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
>>obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".
>>
>>Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
>>insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
>>appreciated.
>>
>>BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
>>Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
>>yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.
>>
>>Heres the tale of the tape:
>>
>>AG Modern cherry canopy
>>ag. flo. starip 48" black
>>ag glass top
>>ag 90 gal w/overflow
>>ag cherry stand
>>ag modern cherry overflow
>>$1499.00
>>CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
>>$1249.99
>>SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
>>$349.00
>>BIOBALLS PER GALLON
>>10 X $9.99=$99.00
>>HI TECH
>>$150.00
>>BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
>>$299.00
>>RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
>>$99.99
>>CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
>>2 FOR $89.98
>>RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
>>$289.00
>>LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
>>$349.99
>>22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
>>$649.99
>>RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
>>$36.99
>>CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
>>$149.99
>>AM SOLENOID VALVE
>>$129.00
>>AM CO2 REGULATOR
>>$179.99
>>PINPOINT PH MONITOR
>>$189.99
>>RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
>>$249.99
>>AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
>>$116
>>PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
>>$279.99
>>IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
>>$39.99
>>RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
>>$59.99
>>CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
>>$39.99
>>ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
>>SAL****ER TEST KIT
>>$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99
>>
>>GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32
>>
>>?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????
>
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Tom Burns]

area 51 wrote:

> "Tom Burns" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as
>
> a
>
>>total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons
>
> and
>
>>tons of great stuff
>
>
> <BIG SNIP>
> With all that money to spend you are heading for a total disaster.
> All you need to spend is a few pounds on a decent book and research on
> the web.
> Read read read, and don't be in such a almighty hurry.
> If you are the impatient sort, *wrong* pastime.
>
>
I've spent a month already just searching the web, reading books, and
checking our Mark's excellent site. I also have 2 kids, 2 and 4, so this
project will likely take at least 6-12 months before I even put a coral
or fish in the tank.

I just wanted to share with everyone what can happen if you walk into a
store and say "I'm new to this, could you please screw me over?"

Cheers.

[Marc Levenson]

Tom Burns wrote:

> I just wanted to share with everyone what can happen if you walk into a
> store and say "I'm new to this, could you please screw me over?"

LOL!

Marc

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Michelle Leonard]

I havent' read all the posts yet, but just wanted to say that I just bought
the modern series cherry cabinet, canopy and a 125 gallon tank to replace an
old setup when I moved, this included the corners strips - and the tank was
pre/drilled in the corners and included the overflow kits -- Total cost
$1250. You don't need a glass top...

Okay, I just glanced at the list. RUN FORREST RUN!


"Tom Burns" > wrote in message
...
> So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
> total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
> tons of great stuff.
>
> I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
> stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
> long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
> than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
> quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
> week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
> Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
> start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
> the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
> stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
> credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
> instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
> because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
> got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
> quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
> obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".
>
> Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
> insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
> Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
> yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.
>
> Heres the tale of the tape:
>
> AG Modern cherry canopy
> ag. flo. starip 48" black
> ag glass top
> ag 90 gal w/overflow
> ag cherry stand
> ag modern cherry overflow
> $1499.00
> CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
> $1249.99
> SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
> $349.00
> BIOBALLS PER GALLON
> 10 X $9.99=$99.00
> HI TECH
> $150.00
> BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
> $299.00
> RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
> $99.99
> CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
> 2 FOR $89.98
> RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
> $289.00
> LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
> $349.99
> 22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
> $649.99
> RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
> $36.99
> CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
> $149.99
> AM SOLENOID VALVE
> $129.00
> AM CO2 REGULATOR
> $179.99
> PINPOINT PH MONITOR
> $189.99
> RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
> $249.99
> AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
> $116
> PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
> $279.99
> IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
> $39.99
> RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
> $59.99
> CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
> $39.99
> ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
> SAL****ER TEST KIT
> $ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99
>
> GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32
>
>
> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????
>
>

[C]

Southern Ontario here as well (London)
Dont get burned dbl check prices then check them again.
Thats a lot of $ to jump right in. Take things slow. A few retail
outlets will try to sell you un-needed equiptment just to raise the
final sale.
I have a used 40 complete setup for $300. Canadian. cycled and ready
for livestock.

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:40:54 -0400, Tom Burns >
wrote:

>So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
>total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
>tons of great stuff.
>
>I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
>stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
>long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
>than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
>quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
>week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
>Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
>start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
>the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
>stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
>credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
>instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
>because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
>got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
>quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
>obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".
>
>Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
>insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
>appreciated.
>
>BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
>Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
>yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.
>
>Heres the tale of the tape:
>
>AG Modern cherry canopy
>ag. flo. starip 48" black
>ag glass top
>ag 90 gal w/overflow
>ag cherry stand
>ag modern cherry overflow
>$1499.00
>CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
>$1249.99
>SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
>$349.00
>BIOBALLS PER GALLON
>10 X $9.99=$99.00
>HI TECH
>$150.00
>BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
>$299.00
>RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
>$99.99
>CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
>2 FOR $89.98
>RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
>$289.00
>LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
>$349.99
>22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
>$649.99
>RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
>$36.99
>CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
>$149.99
>AM SOLENOID VALVE
>$129.00
>AM CO2 REGULATOR
>$179.99
>PINPOINT PH MONITOR
>$189.99
>RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
>$249.99
>AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
>$116
>PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
>$279.99
>IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
>$39.99
>RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
>$59.99
>CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
>$39.99
>ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
>SAL****ER TEST KIT
>$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99
>
>GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32
>
>
>?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????

[Jimmy Chen]

> So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
> total newbie.

First question first ... do you have any idea of what kind of
corals/livestock you wish to keep? Unless you have already determined that,
all of these talk about which equipment to purchase is nonsense.

jc

[TW]

Tom

You do not need everything in the begining. First off , until your tank
is setup, cycled and more mature you don't need all the bells and
whistles. I would start with the desired tank, lights, circulation
pumps, good quality skimmer(spend some money here it will pay dividends
for a long time to come) , heaters,DSB, good quality LR, a set of test
kits and good quality salt. I would pass on the deep six hydrometer.
They are not very accurate. Buy a good quality hydrometrer, they are
more accurate.Take your time and add things one at a time as you need
them. You do not need the rest in the begining if ever. Many of the
toys are only needed when you have a more complicated setup with more
demanding or delicate pets. You may soon want a R/O / DI water filter.
It gets to be a pain running to a water store to buy good quality water
all the time. You will need lots of water in this hobby. Good water
makes a big difference
You especially don't need a calc reactor yet. Second off find a new
store. Whoever you are talking about and I have a good guess ( don't
stick your hand in the shark tank) is obvously only interested in making
a sale. There are lots of good sites to get info from on the net.
If you are near Oakville you can try the Oakville reef gallery on Kerr
St. Ask for Tom or Flavio.
I also have had good luck with Big Als in Stoney Creek for fish and dry
goods though most of the staff does not know much about reefs. Larry is
the guy to talk to. Most staff at Big Als in Mississauga have not been
very helpful. There is pretty good store next door called Dragon
Aquarium in the chinese plaza. They often have nice coral but are
generally not the best at giving advice.
As others have pointed out shop on the net before you shop in a store.
There is lots of variation in prices out there.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby

Todd


>

[Stan Peterson]

I'm aware that certain corals and livestock are more difficult to
maintain than others, or require slightly different environmental
parameters, but isn't it pretty much the same equipment/setup? For
example, I know that specific lighting is critical to some corals, but
they will all need lighting, calcium, proper salinity, etc. etc. to thrive.



Jimmy Chen wrote:
>>So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
>>total newbie.
>
>
> First question first ... do you have any idea of what kind of
> corals/livestock you wish to keep? Unless you have already determined that,
> all of these talk about which equipment to purchase is nonsense.
>
> jc
>
>

[Tom Burns]

TW wrote:
> Tom
>
> You do not need everything in the begining. First off , until your tank
> is setup, cycled and more mature you don't need all the bells and
> whistles. I would start with the desired tank, lights, circulation
> pumps, good quality skimmer(spend some money here it will pay dividends
> for a long time to come) , heaters,DSB, good quality LR, a set of test
> kits and good quality salt. I would pass on the deep six hydrometer.
> They are not very accurate. Buy a good quality hydrometrer, they are
> more accurate.Take your time and add things one at a time as you need
> them. You do not need the rest in the begining if ever. Many of the
> toys are only needed when you have a more complicated setup with more
> demanding or delicate pets. You may soon want a R/O / DI water filter.
> It gets to be a pain running to a water store to buy good quality water
> all the time. You will need lots of water in this hobby. Good water
> makes a big difference
> You especially don't need a calc reactor yet. Second off find a new
> store. Whoever you are talking about and I have a good guess ( don't
> stick your hand in the shark tank) is obvously only interested in making
> a sale. There are lots of good sites to get info from on the net.
> If you are near Oakville you can try the Oakville reef gallery on Kerr
> St. Ask for Tom or Flavio.
> I also have had good luck with Big Als in Stoney Creek for fish and dry
> goods though most of the staff does not know much about reefs. Larry is
> the guy to talk to. Most staff at Big Als in Mississauga have not been
> very helpful. There is pretty good store next door called Dragon
> Aquarium in the chinese plaza. They often have nice coral but are
> generally not the best at giving advice.
> As others have pointed out shop on the net before you shop in a store.
> There is lots of variation in prices out there.
>
> Good luck and welcome to the hobby
>
> Todd
>
>
>>
>
Thanks for the great tip. I'd already been in the Dragon store, but
found it exactly as you described.
I went into the Oakville store today and spent over an hour with Tom.
Great guy, good advice, nice place, PLUS- it's so close to me that I
could almost carry a fish in my hand from the store to my house! (-;

I'm still digesting all the information but I think I'm going to go with
a 90 or 120 gall tank, refugium/sump that will have all those plants and
little critters living in it, a halide/VHO lighting system, R/O filter
with auto top up and bulk filtered water reservoir, and a high quality
skimmer. No calcium reactor until the demand warrants it. I'm going to
get the tank going without anything live in it and see what my
temperature fluctuations are, then I'll get a heater or chiller
depending on what I need. I figure that since the indoor temperature of
my house is relatively stable, I should only need one or the other.

Does this sound like a good starting point?

Thanks again to all who have helped me out so far.

Cheers

[Tom Burns]

TW wrote:
> Tom
>
> You do not need everything in the begining. First off , until your tank
> is setup, cycled and more mature you don't need all the bells and
> whistles. I would start with the desired tank, lights, circulation
> pumps, good quality skimmer(spend some money here it will pay dividends
> for a long time to come) , heaters,DSB, good quality LR, a set of test
> kits and good quality salt. I would pass on the deep six hydrometer.
> They are not very accurate. Buy a good quality hydrometrer, they are
> more accurate.Take your time and add things one at a time as you need
> them. You do not need the rest in the begining if ever. Many of the
> toys are only needed when you have a more complicated setup with more
> demanding or delicate pets. You may soon want a R/O / DI water filter.
> It gets to be a pain running to a water store to buy good quality water
> all the time. You will need lots of water in this hobby. Good water
> makes a big difference
> You especially don't need a calc reactor yet. Second off find a new
> store. Whoever you are talking about and I have a good guess ( don't
> stick your hand in the shark tank) is obvously only interested in making
> a sale. There are lots of good sites to get info from on the net.
> If you are near Oakville you can try the Oakville reef gallery on Kerr
> St. Ask for Tom or Flavio.
> I also have had good luck with Big Als in Stoney Creek for fish and dry
> goods though most of the staff does not know much about reefs. Larry is
> the guy to talk to. Most staff at Big Als in Mississauga have not been
> very helpful. There is pretty good store next door called Dragon
> Aquarium in the chinese plaza. They often have nice coral but are
> generally not the best at giving advice.
> As others have pointed out shop on the net before you shop in a store.
> There is lots of variation in prices out there.
>
> Good luck and welcome to the hobby
>
> Todd
>
>
>>
>
Thanks for the great tip. I'd already been in the Dragon store, but
found it exactly as you described.
I went into the Oakville store today and spent over an hour with Tom.
Great guy, good advice, nice place, PLUS- it's so close to me that I
could almost carry a fish in my hand from the store to my house! (-;

I'm still digesting all the information but I think I'm going to go with
a 90 or 120 gall tank, refugium/sump that will have all those plants and
little critters living in it, a halide/VHO lighting system, R/O filter
with auto top up and bulk filtered water reservoir, and a high quality
skimmer. No calcium reactor until the demand warrants it. I'm going to
get the tank going without anything live in it and see what my
temperature fluctuations are, then I'll get a heater or chiller
depending on what I need. I figure that since the indoor temperature of
my house is relatively stable, I should only need one or the other.

Does this sound like a good starting point?

Thanks again to all who have helped me out so far.

Cheers

[Thomas Bishop]

"Tom Burns" > wrote in message
> I'm still digesting all the information but I think I'm going to go with
> a 90 or 120 gall tank, refugium/sump that will have all those plants and
> little critters living in it, a halide/VHO lighting system, R/O filter
> with auto top up and bulk filtered water reservoir, and a high quality
> skimmer. No calcium reactor until the demand warrants it. I'm going to
> get the tank going without anything live in it and see what my
> temperature fluctuations are, then I'll get a heater or chiller
> depending on what I need. I figure that since the indoor temperature of
> my house is relatively stable, I should only need one or the other.
>
> Does this sound like a good starting point?

Yes, much better than before. What kind of plants are you talking about? I
recommend that you have about 1-1.5 pounds per gallon of live rock and a
4-6" sand bed. Somebody has probably already told you that, but I'll say it
again. That's the only filtration you'll need. You say that you are going
to hold off on the heater for now. I still don't have a heater and found
that my tank does just fine. But remember, even though your house temp
doesn't fluctuate much, the lights will heat up your tank a great deal.
You'll have to figure out the difference between your tank water with and
without the lights on.

[Thomas Bishop]

"Stan Peterson" > wrote in message
> I'm aware that certain corals and livestock are more difficult to
> maintain than others, or require slightly different environmental
> parameters, but isn't it pretty much the same equipment/setup? For
> example, I know that specific lighting is critical to some corals, but
> they will all need lighting, calcium, proper salinity, etc. etc. to
thrive.

Well, if you're only going to be keeping mushrooms and polyps, not a lot of
current or light is required. But if you plan on getting into SPS corals or
clams, make sure you have plenty of light and current.

[CapFusion]

"Stan Peterson" > wrote in message
...
> I'm aware that certain corals and livestock are more difficult to
> maintain than others, or require slightly different environmental
> parameters, but isn't it pretty much the same equipment/setup? For
> example, I know that specific lighting is critical to some corals, but
> they will all need lighting, calcium, proper salinity, etc. etc. to
thrive.
>


Yes, it all basically the same but "HOW MUCH" is the key. Some coral or
anemone require alot of light but other do not. So do you buy the best
lighting setup? You are basically hosting those critter that you want in
your tank. Find out what you want first then focus on those equipement.

CapFusion,...

[Jimmy Chen]

> I'm aware that certain corals and livestock are more difficult to
> maintain than others, or require slightly different environmental
> parameters, but isn't it pretty much the same equipment/setup?

Nope. Major differences in term of the kind of livestock and how well they
will do in different setups.

If you wish to keep softies, then I would agree with the other posters and
tell you to ditch the Ca reactor and just go with two part solutions, since
Ca level isnt a critical factor. In addition, lighting may not be as
critical as many are more low light demanding, even tho some still rather
perfer strong lights, nor will be your water quality. If you wish to keep
hard corals, such as LPS, or even harder, SPS, then I would say forget other
posters' advices and Ca reactor is a must, as your livestock will require
major Ca input on an on-going basis that no two-part solutions can even keep
up (cheaply). In addition, such a setup will demand strong lighting,
ultra-low organics, aka - kick ass skimmer, and top quality water, aka RO/DI
filter.

So as you can see from the examples above, this is no longer about a tank
with some equipment and add corals. Or to look at it from another POV, a
mistake made here can end up costing you thousands more in equipment
replacement.

jc

[Tom Burns]

Thomas Bishop wrote:

> Yes, much better than before. What kind of plants are you talking about?

There were just some kid or kinds of plants (I forget the names)that
were only in the refugium/sump part below the tank. He said that they
worked very well to eliminate contaminants, as well as little tiny fish
like things (very small down to microsciopic) he said, which also got
rid of stuff and flowed back into the tank to feed other things. To me,
this looked like an excellent all biological / ecological system.

The plants were just kind of floating around, and he said all you need
to do is trim them down when they start to overgrow. I can find out the
names for you if you like.






















I
> recommend that you have about 1-1.5 pounds per gallon of live rock and a
> 4-6" sand bed. Somebody has probably already told you that, but I'll say it
> again. That's the only filtration you'll need. You say that you are going
> to hold off on the heater for now. I still don't have a heater and found
> that my tank does just fine. But remember, even though your house temp
> doesn't fluctuate much, the lights will heat up your tank a great deal.
> You'll have to figure out the difference between your tank water with and
> without the lights on.
>
>

[Rich Conley]

>
>
> The plants were just kind of floating around, and he said all you need
> to do is trim them down when they start to overgrow. I can find out the
> names for you if you like.
>

SOunds like any sort of generic macroalgae.