Am I Getting Hosed?

So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
tons of great stuff.

I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".

Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
appreciated.

BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.

Heres the tale of the tape:

AG Modern cherry canopy
ag. flo. starip 48" black
ag glass top
ag 90 gal w/overflow
ag cherry stand
ag modern cherry overflow
$1499.00
CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
$1249.99
SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
$349.00
BIOBALLS PER GALLON
10 X $9.99=$99.00
HI TECH
$150.00
BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
$299.00
RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
$99.99
CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
2 FOR $89.98
RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
$289.00
LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
$349.99
22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
$649.99
RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
$36.99
CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
$149.99
AM SOLENOID VALVE
$129.00
AM CO2 REGULATOR
$179.99
PINPOINT PH MONITOR
$189.99
RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
$249.99
AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
$116
PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
$279.99
IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
$39.99
RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
$59.99
CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
$39.99
ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
SAL****ER TEST KIT
$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99

GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32


?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????

Okay, I know that the conversion rate for U.S.D. wasn't included in your post,
but I think you are getting "hosed".

If you've never had a sal****er tank, please read this first:
http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm

Now, about the stuff you will need, I'll list them and you can see some prices
that I'd expect to pay, typically online rather than the LFS. Also, I will
mention some of the items you do not want or need.

90g Tank (glass & reef ready) - $200 to $350
Stand and Canopy - could cost little or a lot depending on what you want in your
home. $150 to $600?
100gpd 5-stage RO/DI unit - $150
Ebo Jager 200w heater - $25 to $40
pH Pinpoint Monitor - $90
Refractometer (for salinity readings) - $50 to $70
Calcium Reactor - $250 to $400 plus:
CO2 tank - $75
Regulator & Auto shut off solenoid - $125 (reef fanatic.com)
200g Kent Sea Salt - $50 to $70
Aragonite Substrate 300 lbs worth - don't know... Southdown Playsand is your
cheapest option, if you can get it.
125 lbs of Live Rock - if ordered online, probably $450 or so.
Test kits (Salifert) - $100
MH Lighting - $450 to $500 for dual 250w Ushio 10,000K bulbs and ballasts, and
reflectors.
Actinic VHO supplementation - $200 with IceCap 430 ballast and 2 URI VHO 110w
bulbs.
Sump $200 or so.
Aqua C EV-120 (or 180) Protein Skimmer - $350 to $400
Mag 9.5 return pump - $60 to $80
Grounding Probe - $20 - $25
Total not including sand - less than $4000, with all new items. My math was
with the high side of all the numbers listed above.

NO BIOBALLS - they create nitrates!
NO RIO POWERHEADS - they can fail (especially the 2100 and 2500 models) and
short out, frying a tank!

If you can find some of these items used, you'll save a lot. Some people sell
entire setups for half of retail, because they are moving or getting out of the
hobby.

Marc


Tom Burns wrote:

So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
tons of great stuff.

I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".

Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
appreciated.

BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.

Heres the tale of the tape:

AG Modern cherry canopy
ag. flo. starip 48" black
ag glass top
ag 90 gal w/overflow
ag cherry stand
ag modern cherry overflow
$1499.00
CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
$1249.99
SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
$349.00
BIOBALLS PER GALLON
10 X $9.99=$99.00
HI TECH
$150.00
BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
$299.00
RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
$99.99
CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
2 FOR $89.98
RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
$289.00
LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
$349.99
22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
$649.99
RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
$36.99
CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
$149.99
AM SOLENOID VALVE
$129.00
AM CO2 REGULATOR
$179.99
PINPOINT PH MONITOR
$189.99
RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
$249.99
AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
$116
PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
$279.99
IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
$39.99
RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
$59.99
CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
$39.99
ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
SAL****ER TEST KIT
$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99

GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

"Marc Levenson" wrote in message...
Okay, I know that the conversion rate for U.S.D. wasn't included in your
post,
but I think you are getting "hosed".

Ontario! That would explain why the prices seemed EXTREMELY outrageous. Oh
well, they're still probably too high, judging by David's post.

I agree w/o doing the math, your getting hozed !

If you've never had a sal****er tank, please read this first:
http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm

to make a few mods to marc's wise advise, also in USD


Refractometer (for salinity readings) - $50 to $70

IMO skip it now, buy it later if you feel the need, a $10(usd) swingarm can be good
enough, and IF you can calibrate it with a good refract IMO its even better as your more
inclined to test often, and not skip testing.

Calcium Reactor - $250 to $400 plus:
you can find new reactors good for 90gal tanks for around $150

CO2 tank - $75
buy this at a welding place, a used one in good shape will only set you back about $40

Regulator & Auto shut off solenoid - $125 (reef fanatic.com)
IF your welding place will get it for you, you can get these for as low as $50 for dual
gauge regulator/ solenoid / bubble counter / needle valve, the tank guage for co2 is next
to worthless but it wont hurt anything

Aqua C EV-120 (or 180) Protein Skimmer - $350 to $400
I am a needle wheel fan so T-1000 or euroreef

If you can find some of these items used, you'll save a lot. Some people sell
entire setups for half of retail, because they are moving or getting out of the
hobby.



Marc

--
Richard Reynolds

Thanks for the info.
BTW-I've read just about eveything on your site. It's excellent. Thanks
for maintaining a great site too.



Marc Levenson wrote:
Okay, I know that the conversion rate for U.S.D. wasn't included in your post,
but I think you are getting "hosed".

If you've never had a sal****er tank, please read this first:
http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm

Now, about the stuff you will need, I'll list them and you can see some prices
that I'd expect to pay, typically online rather than the LFS. Also, I will
mention some of the items you do not want or need.

90g Tank (glass & reef ready) - $200 to $350
Stand and Canopy - could cost little or a lot depending on what you want in your
home. $150 to $600?
100gpd 5-stage RO/DI unit - $150
Ebo Jager 200w heater - $25 to $40
pH Pinpoint Monitor - $90
Refractometer (for salinity readings) - $50 to $70
Calcium Reactor - $250 to $400 plus:
CO2 tank - $75
Regulator & Auto shut off solenoid - $125 (reef fanatic.com)
200g Kent Sea Salt - $50 to $70
Aragonite Substrate 300 lbs worth - don't know... Southdown Playsand is your
cheapest option, if you can get it.
125 lbs of Live Rock - if ordered online, probably $450 or so.
Test kits (Salifert) - $100
MH Lighting - $450 to $500 for dual 250w Ushio 10,000K bulbs and ballasts, and
reflectors.
Actinic VHO supplementation - $200 with IceCap 430 ballast and 2 URI VHO 110w
bulbs.
Sump $200 or so.
Aqua C EV-120 (or 180) Protein Skimmer - $350 to $400
Mag 9.5 return pump - $60 to $80
Grounding Probe - $20 - $25
Total not including sand - less than $4000, with all new items. My math was
with the high side of all the numbers listed above.

NO BIOBALLS - they create nitrates!
NO RIO POWERHEADS - they can fail (especially the 2100 and 2500 models) and
short out, frying a tank!

If you can find some of these items used, you'll save a lot. Some people sell
entire setups for half of retail, because they are moving or getting out of the
hobby.

Marc


Tom Burns wrote:


So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
tons of great stuff.

I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".

Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
appreciated.

BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.

Heres the tale of the tape:

AG Modern cherry canopy
ag. flo. starip 48" black
ag glass top
ag 90 gal w/overflow
ag cherry stand
ag modern cherry overflow
$1499.00
CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
$1249.99
SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
$349.00
BIOBALLS PER GALLON
10 X $9.99=$99.00
HI TECH
$150.00
BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
$299.00
RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
$99.99
CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
2 FOR $89.98
RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
$289.00
LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
$349.99
22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
$649.99
RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
$36.99
CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
$149.99
AM SOLENOID VALVE
$129.00
AM CO2 REGULATOR
$179.99
PINPOINT PH MONITOR
$189.99
RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
$249.99
AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
$116
PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
$279.99
IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
$39.99
RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
$59.99
CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
$39.99
ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
SAL****ER TEST KIT
$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99

GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32

???????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????


--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

You're getting hosed. Looks like Big Al's strikes again. The prices on many
of those items - especially the lighting - are roughly double what you
should be paying in Canada. They're also selling you more stuff than you'll
need, and not selling you other stuff - like live rock - that you'll need.
Plus, some of the components are crappy - if you're going to spend that kind
of money, get the best.

Just an example of the overpricing, on the Pinpoint monitors:

PH Monitor - your quote $189.99, price at J&L $129.99
Salinity Monitor - your quote $279.99, price at J&L $169.50

You can check out the J&L web site at www.jlaquatics.com They're located in
B.C. I've ordered a bunch of stuff from them, and it arrived here in Ottawa
within a few days. Before I found them, I too got hosed on several items at
Big Al's.

Regards,

Dave.

"Tom Burns" wrote in message
...
So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
tons of great stuff.

I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".

Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
appreciated.

BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.

Heres the tale of the tape:

AG Modern cherry canopy
ag. flo. starip 48" black
ag glass top
ag 90 gal w/overflow
ag cherry stand
ag modern cherry overflow
$1499.00
CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
$1249.99
SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
$349.00
BIOBALLS PER GALLON
10 X $9.99=$99.00
HI TECH
$150.00
BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
$299.00
RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
$99.99
CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
2 FOR $89.98
RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
$289.00
LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
$349.99
22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
$649.99
RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
$36.99
CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
$149.99
AM SOLENOID VALVE
$129.00
AM CO2 REGULATOR
$179.99
PINPOINT PH MONITOR
$189.99
RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
$249.99
AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
$116
PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
$279.99
IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
$39.99
RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
$59.99
CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
$39.99
ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
SAL****ER TEST KIT
$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99

GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32


?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????

"Tom Burns" wrote in message

Yeah, you're getting hosed. I'll break it down for you and others can chime
in too.

Heres the tale of the tape:

AG Modern cherry canopy
ag. flo. starip 48" black
ag glass top

These are usually included with a tank. See if he can take the strip light
and canopy out. You won't need it with the halide bulbs and hood below.

ag 90 gal w/overflow
ag cherry stand
ag modern cherry overflow
$1499.00

That sounds WAY too expensive. If it's reef ready (predrilled with
overflow), as it seems to be, it will boost the price. But it shouldn't be
that much. For what you have listed so far I paid about $250 for (of course
in 55 gallons, not 90 and not reef ready).

CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
$1249.99

If I was quoted a price like that for lights then I would never go back in
the store. Check out www.ahsupply.com for aquarium lighting. Metal halide
is a good choice, but that price and that low wattage is awful.

SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
$349.00
BIOBALLS PER GALLON
10 X $9.99=$99.00
HI TECH
$150.00

I don't know what the MultiReer or Hi Tech is, but lose the bioballs. Do a
Google search to find out why.

BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
$299.00
RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
$99.99

I don't know about the price of the skimmer, but you can find that by
searching the Web. A lot of people have had problems with Rios, but mine
has worked just fine.

CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
2 FOR $89.98
RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
$289.00

VHO actinic light usually suppliments metal halide and that seems like a
fair price. I don't know what the "Rainbow" is, but for $289 I can tell you
that you won't need it that badly.

LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
$349.99
22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
$649.99
RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
$36.99
CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
$149.99
AM SOLENOID VALVE
$129.00
AM CO2 REGULATOR
$179.99

Lose the calcium reactor and all things above related to it. Do a Google
search for Kalkwasser and save yourself some money. Of course, if you have
the money for a calcium reactor, go for it.

PINPOINT PH MONITOR
$189.99
RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
$249.99
AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
$116
PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
$279.99

Lose the fancy monitors. You've got the test kits below. A little extra
time and old fashioned, but it works and doesn't cost much. The wavemaker
and another powerhead is good but you can do without a wavemaker if you
want. They are nice, though.

IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
$39.99
RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
$59.99
CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
$39.99

Again, lose the fancy gadgets, unless you have the cash. Put a stick-on
thermometer on the outside glass. You do need a heater, though, and that
looks like a good price.

ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
SAL****ER TEST KIT
$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99

That seems about right. Do a search for DSB and Southdown. That will not
only give you a great source of biological filtration, but save you some
money (by buying Southdown).

"Tom Burns" wrote in message
...
So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as
a
total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons
and
tons of great stuff

BIG SNIP
With all that money to spend you are heading for a total disaster.
All you need to spend is a few pounds on a decent book and research on
the web.
Read read read, and don't be in such a almighty hurry.
If you are the impatient sort, *wrong* pastime.

area 51 wrote:

"Tom Burns" wrote in message
...

So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as

a

total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons

and

tons of great stuff


BIG SNIP
With all that money to spend you are heading for a total disaster.
All you need to spend is a few pounds on a decent book and research on
the web.
Read read read, and don't be in such a almighty hurry.
If you are the impatient sort, *wrong* pastime.


I've spent a month already just searching the web, reading books, and
checking our Mark's excellent site. I also have 2 kids, 2 and 4, so this
project will likely take at least 6-12 months before I even put a coral
or fish in the tank.

I just wanted to share with everyone what can happen if you walk into a
store and say "I'm new to this, could you please screw me over?"

Cheers.

Tom Burns wrote:

I just wanted to share with everyone what can happen if you walk into a
store and say "I'm new to this, could you please screw me over?"

LOL!

Marc

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com