Hurt Betta and Goldfish , Help !!! [Archive]

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Cassie

November 16th 05, 04:12 PM

I had a betta fish who was healthy and happy when I (stupidly) decided that it would be ok to keep it together with a new goldfish in a two gallon tank. I thought the betta would only be aggressive towards other bettas. They were doing fine for almost a month and then when I woke up this morning I noticed my goldfish had red spots on his body and my bettas fins had been nipped all over the place. It basically looks like the webbing is gone from the long fins and what is left are more like pink strands of fin. Can this heal? How can I tell if there is other damage? What should I do about my goldfish? So far I have put them in separate bowls, but I am pretty new to fish keeping and dont know how to help my betta, she looks worse off than the goldfish.

Help me!
Cassie

Koi-lo

November 16th 05, 08:21 PM

"Cassie" > wrote in message
...
>
> I had a betta fish who was healthy and happy when I (stupidly) decided
> that it would be ok to keep it together with a new goldfish in a two
> gallon tank.

## I never trust bettas. They can turn on other fish in a heartbeat. All
my bettas live alone. As for goldfish - the rule is 10 gallons per fish
since they get quite large if healthy. They're big eaters and pass a lot of
waste. A 2 gallon tank is only suitable for a few guppies or a betta.

I thought the betta would only be aggressive towards other
> bettas.

## I have seen them turn aggressive against tankmates they'd been with for
weeks, maybe months.

They were doing fine for almost a month and then when I woke up
> this morning I noticed my goldfish had red spots on his body and my
> bettas fins had been nipped all over the place. It basically looks like
> the webbing is gone from the long fins and what is left are more like
> pink strands of fin. Can this heal?

## If he's healthy and the water is really clean. If infection sets in it
can die.

How can I tell if there is other
> damage? What should I do about my goldfish?

## Buy a tank large enough to keep goldfish. If you have 2 then get a 20
gallon tank, if 3 get a 30L tank and so on.

So far I have put them in
> separate bowls,

## They will suffocate in bowls unless they have some type of filter and
aeration. Please buy a tank for them or find them another home.

but I am pretty new to fish keeping and dont know how
> to help my betta, she looks worse off than the goldfish.

## You can Google goldfish and bettas. There are thousands of webpages to
learn their needs and how to best meet them.

My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Elaine T

November 16th 05, 11:00 PM

Cassie

November 17th 05, 05:33 AM

"Cassie" wrote in message
...

I had a betta fish who was healthy and happy when I (stupidly) decided
that it would be ok to keep it together with a new goldfish in a two
gallon tank.

## I never trust bettas. They can turn on other fish in a heartbeat. All
my bettas live alone. As for goldfish - the rule is 10 gallons per fish
since they get quite large if healthy. They're big eaters and pass a lot of
waste. A 2 gallon tank is only suitable for a few guppies or a betta.

I thought the betta would only be aggressive towards other
bettas.

## I have seen them turn aggressive against tankmates they'd been with for
weeks, maybe months.

They were doing fine for almost a month and then when I woke up
this morning I noticed my goldfish had red spots on his body and my
bettas fins had been nipped all over the place. It basically looks like
the webbing is gone from the long fins and what is left are more like
pink strands of fin. Can this heal?

## If he's healthy and the water is really clean. If infection sets in it
can die.

How can I tell if there is other
damage? What should I do about my goldfish?

## Buy a tank large enough to keep goldfish. If you have 2 then get a 20
gallon tank, if 3 get a 30L tank and so on.

So far I have put them in
separate bowls,

## They will suffocate in bowls unless they have some type of filter and
aeration. Please buy a tank for them or find them another home.

but I am pretty new to fish keeping and dont know how
to help my betta, she looks worse off than the goldfish.

## You can Google goldfish and bettas. There are thousands of webpages to
learn their needs and how to best meet them.

My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

***Update***

Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate you replying so quickly. My betta fish is doing much better. I was wondering if the betta also needs to bubbling air filter.. Obviously the goldfish did. i didnt know that. he had been fine for the past 3 weeks. When i came home from work, he was gasping for air, never had done it before. Before I had time to put in an air filter he died. I am still upset about it, but now I know. No more goldfish until I have room for @ least a 10 gallon tank.I bought some salt to put in the water to assist w/ the healing. Thanks again!

Elaine T

November 17th 05, 05:35 PM

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Cassie wrote:
> ***Update***
>
> Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate you replying so quickly.
> My betta fish is doing much better. I was wondering if the betta also
> needs to bubbling air filter.. Obviously the goldfish did. i didnt know
> that. he had been fine for the past 3 weeks. When i came home from work,
> he was gasping for air, never had done it before. Before I had time to
> put in an air filter he died. I am still upset about it, but now I
> know. No more goldfish until I have room for @ least a 10 gallon tank.I
> bought some salt to put in the water to assist w/ the healing. Thanks
> again!
>
I'm sorry to hear about your goldfish.

Bettas breathe air and can live fine in perfectly still water. In fact,
they prefer water without too much movement so they can maintain their
bubblenests. I think two gallon tanks are perfect for bettas, although
some people like to give a betta more room so it can swim around.

- --
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
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Tynk

November 17th 05, 06:05 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Cassie" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I had a betta fish who was healthy and happy when I (stupidly) decided
> > that it would be ok to keep it together with a new goldfish in a two
> > gallon tank.
>
> ## I never trust bettas. They can turn on other fish in a heartbeat. All
> my bettas live alone. As for goldfish - the rule is 10 gallons per fish
> since they get quite large if healthy. They're big eaters and pass a lot of
> waste. A 2 gallon tank is only suitable for a few guppies or a betta.
>
> I thought the betta would only be aggressive towards other
> > bettas.
>
> ## I have seen them turn aggressive against tankmates they'd been with for
> weeks, maybe months.
>
> They were doing fine for almost a month and then when I woke up
> > this morning I noticed my goldfish had red spots on his body and my
> > bettas fins had been nipped all over the place. It basically looks like
> > the webbing is gone from the long fins and what is left are more like
> > pink strands of fin. Can this heal?
>
> ## If he's healthy and the water is really clean. If infection sets in it
> can die.
>
> How can I tell if there is other
> > damage? What should I do about my goldfish?
>
> ## Buy a tank large enough to keep goldfish. If you have 2 then get a 20
> gallon tank, if 3 get a 30L tank and so on.
>
> So far I have put them in
> > separate bowls,
>
> ## They will suffocate in bowls unless they have some type of filter and
> aeration. Please buy a tank for them or find them another home.
>
> but I am pretty new to fish keeping and dont know how
> > to help my betta, she looks worse off than the goldfish.
>
> ## You can Google goldfish and bettas. There are thousands of webpages to
> learn their needs and how to best meet them.
>
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
Koi-lo wrote:
> ## I never trust bettas. They can turn on other fish in a heartbeat. All
> my bettas live alone. >>

You simply do not understand Bettas.
Bettas don't just "turn" on tank mates. You simply didn't understand
the "why".
(back ground on myself....I have been a Betta fancier for nearly 28 yrs
and have bred them for many of those years)
Each Betta has an individual personality. These fish are aware of their
surroundings too. They really do know who their keeper is. That wiggle
dance they do every time you walk into the room isn't begging for food
all the time. They're also trying to get your attention.
Bettas are also socialble fish. They don't want to be solitary.
Bettas have a hierarchy and right there that shows you that these fish
are not solitary by nature.
Rarely you will find an overly aggressvie Betta that must be kept
isolated, but the majority are fine in a community tank with suitable
tank mates for the Betta, as they are usually the ones getting nipped,
not the other way around.
Many times a male that is put into a community tank may huff and puff
at first, but usually they calm down right away as soon as they realize
these other fish aren't going to harm them.
Many times Bettas that are kept solitary become listless and bored.
Some even go into depression without a flare buddy or tank mates.
I hope you are keeping your solitary males next to each other so that
they can flare with each other.
Another common myth is that they will be stressed too much and die if
housed next to other males permantly. It just isn't so.
They actually need the exercise and stimulation.
The largest myth out there regarding Bettas is that they *prefer* small
tanks without filtration. Absolutely untrue.
Just because they can survive in a small, unfiltered tank doesn't mean
that they enjoy or prefer it, and don't succumb to the affects of dirty
water like regular fish do.
Bettas, like every fish in the world, benefit from filtration.
In smaller tanks (minimum 1gal) their water should be changed 100% 1-2
times weekly in order for them to not suffer from high nitrite/nitrate
and ammonia levels, just like other fish.
Because Bettas can breathe surface air with their labyrinth organ
people mistakingly believe that this means they prefer to live in small
spaces and don't suffer the ill affects of high ammonia or
nirtite/nitrates levels. I'll never understand why folks think this
way.
The myth about them prefering small bowls because they live in small
mud puddles in the wild makes me want to choke the person saying it.
Folks don't undertsand that Rice paddy fileds are NOT small mud
puddles. They're usually about 18" deep and the size of a lake or other
larger body of water.
These are fed fresh water constantly, not stagnant mud puddles like
some would have you beleive.
Nature gave them a labyrinth organ so that they could *survive* the dry
seasons. This is where the myth of them prefering it comes into play.
They can *survive* in tiny, shallow puddles until the rains come again.
Another myth is that the males fight to the death.
In the wild, they hardly ever rip each other to shreds.
They posture, flare, nip and chase. The loser simply swims away.
In a tank they have no place to go. The loser isn't "swimming away" so
the winner continues and then chunks are taken out of the fins, as well
as the body.
The loser usually dies from it's injuries, not that they fought to the
death.
Bettas definately need a certain amount of territory for them selves.
If a tank isn't large enough to house either a male or female Betta
with other tank mates than it feels threatened and will pursue the
"intruder".
Sometimes the tank simply doesn't have enough decorations or plants to
establish proper territories, and hence the Betta feels threatented and
goes after the tank mate.
So please, Koi-Lo, research a bit more about Bettas. They'll be better
for it, and you can also then give out proper advice about them as
well.

Tynk

November 17th 05, 06:23 PM

Cassie wrote:
> I had a betta fish who was healthy and happy when I (stupidly) decided
> that it would be ok to keep it together with a new goldfish in a two
> gallon tank. I thought the betta would only be aggressive towards other
> bettas. They were doing fine for almost a month and then when I woke up
> this morning I noticed my goldfish had red spots on his body and my
> bettas fins had been nipped all over the place. It basically looks like
> the webbing is gone from the long fins and what is left are more like
> pink strands of fin. Can this heal? How can I tell if there is other
> damage? What should I do about my goldfish? So far I have put them in
> separate bowls, but I am pretty new to fish keeping and dont know how
> to help my betta, she looks worse off than the goldfish.
>
> Help me!
> Cassie
>
>
> --
> Cassie

Cassie wrote:
> I had a betta fish who was healthy and happy when I (stupidly) decided
> that it would be ok to keep it together with a new goldfish in a two
> gallon tank.

You should never house Goldfish with tropical fish.
Bascially, only Goldfish can be kept with Goldfish. DoJo loaches are
about the only other tank mates that can go with them other than other
Goldies.
Bettas (pronounced "bet-uh") need to be kept in tanks a minimum of a
gallon, but need heated water, so that's very hard to do in such a
small tank. They also should have filtration as well.
Unless you plan on changing 100% of the water weekl, then use a filter.
Bettas only prefer still waters when spawning.
There's too much false information out there when it comes to Bettas.
Sadly, most of the false info you'll hear will be from the pet shops!
Goldfish, depending in the type need large, filtered tanks. The Oranda
type Goldies that have stocky, fat bodies really need minimum of 10-15
gallons per fish and 15-20 gallons per Goldie when it's the common or
Comet type, as they grow much longer (some up to 16" long). Koi have no
business in home aquariums and should only be kept in large ponds.
They simply grow much too large for the average home aquarium.
In either case, Goldies require extra filtration as they put out a
great deal more waste than the average fish. They also should have
bumped up water changes as well.
A 2 gallon tank is never a good thing for a Goldfish, unless it's
filtered and the fish is an inch long baby.
Goldies also are long lived fish. Their lifespan is about 20 yrs.
Bettas, average about 2-4 yrs. However, if kept under good conditions
they can live over 5. Of course genetics play a part in that as well.
Sorry to hear that your Goldie didn't make it.
Now, how is the Betta doing?
Keep his water clean, and heated to 78-80*f, and fed well and he should
heal quickly.
Bettas, by nature, heal very quickly....as long as they have clean
water and are kept warm.
Bettas in dirty, colder water are suceptible to diseases such Fin Rot
and Fungus when they have been damaged.

Gill Passman

November 17th 05, 06:48 PM

Tynk wrote:
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>>"Cassie" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>I had a betta fish who was healthy and happy when I (stupidly) decided
>>>that it would be ok to keep it together with a new goldfish in a two
>>>gallon tank.
>>
>>## I never trust bettas. They can turn on other fish in a heartbeat. All
>>my bettas live alone. As for goldfish - the rule is 10 gallons per fish
>>since they get quite large if healthy. They're big eaters and pass a lot of
>>waste. A 2 gallon tank is only suitable for a few guppies or a betta.
>>
>>I thought the betta would only be aggressive towards other
>>
>>>bettas.
>>
>>## I have seen them turn aggressive against tankmates they'd been with for
>>weeks, maybe months.
>>
>>They were doing fine for almost a month and then when I woke up
>>
>>>this morning I noticed my goldfish had red spots on his body and my
>>>bettas fins had been nipped all over the place. It basically looks like
>>>the webbing is gone from the long fins and what is left are more like
>>>pink strands of fin. Can this heal?
>>
>>## If he's healthy and the water is really clean. If infection sets in it
>>can die.
>>
>>How can I tell if there is other
>>
>>>damage? What should I do about my goldfish?
>>
>>## Buy a tank large enough to keep goldfish. If you have 2 then get a 20
>>gallon tank, if 3 get a 30L tank and so on.
>>
>>So far I have put them in
>>
>>>separate bowls,
>>
>>## They will suffocate in bowls unless they have some type of filter and
>>aeration. Please buy a tank for them or find them another home.
>>
>>but I am pretty new to fish keeping and dont know how
>>
>>>to help my betta, she looks worse off than the goldfish.
>>
>>## You can Google goldfish and bettas. There are thousands of webpages to
>>learn their needs and how to best meet them.
>>
>>My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>>http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>>~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>>## I never trust bettas. They can turn on other fish in a heartbeat. All
>>my bettas live alone. >>
>
>
> You simply do not understand Bettas.
> Bettas don't just "turn" on tank mates. You simply didn't understand
> the "why".
> (back ground on myself....I have been a Betta fancier for nearly 28 yrs
> and have bred them for many of those years)
> Each Betta has an individual personality. These fish are aware of their
> surroundings too. They really do know who their keeper is. That wiggle
> dance they do every time you walk into the room isn't begging for food
> all the time. They're also trying to get your attention.
> Bettas are also socialble fish. They don't want to be solitary.
> Bettas have a hierarchy and right there that shows you that these fish
> are not solitary by nature.
> Rarely you will find an overly aggressvie Betta that must be kept
> isolated, but the majority are fine in a community tank with suitable
> tank mates for the Betta, as they are usually the ones getting nipped,
> not the other way around.
> Many times a male that is put into a community tank may huff and puff
> at first, but usually they calm down right away as soon as they realize
> these other fish aren't going to harm them.
> Many times Bettas that are kept solitary become listless and bored.
> Some even go into depression without a flare buddy or tank mates.
> I hope you are keeping your solitary males next to each other so that
> they can flare with each other.
> Another common myth is that they will be stressed too much and die if
> housed next to other males permantly. It just isn't so.
> They actually need the exercise and stimulation.
> The largest myth out there regarding Bettas is that they *prefer* small
> tanks without filtration. Absolutely untrue.
> Just because they can survive in a small, unfiltered tank doesn't mean
> that they enjoy or prefer it, and don't succumb to the affects of dirty
> water like regular fish do.
> Bettas, like every fish in the world, benefit from filtration.
> In smaller tanks (minimum 1gal) their water should be changed 100% 1-2
> times weekly in order for them to not suffer from high nitrite/nitrate
> and ammonia levels, just like other fish.
> Because Bettas can breathe surface air with their labyrinth organ
> people mistakingly believe that this means they prefer to live in small
> spaces and don't suffer the ill affects of high ammonia or
> nirtite/nitrates levels. I'll never understand why folks think this
> way.
> The myth about them prefering small bowls because they live in small
> mud puddles in the wild makes me want to choke the person saying it.
> Folks don't undertsand that Rice paddy fileds are NOT small mud
> puddles. They're usually about 18" deep and the size of a lake or other
> larger body of water.
> These are fed fresh water constantly, not stagnant mud puddles like
> some would have you beleive.
> Nature gave them a labyrinth organ so that they could *survive* the dry
> seasons. This is where the myth of them prefering it comes into play.
> They can *survive* in tiny, shallow puddles until the rains come again.
> Another myth is that the males fight to the death.
> In the wild, they hardly ever rip each other to shreds.
> They posture, flare, nip and chase. The loser simply swims away.
> In a tank they have no place to go. The loser isn't "swimming away" so
> the winner continues and then chunks are taken out of the fins, as well
> as the body.
> The loser usually dies from it's injuries, not that they fought to the
> death.
> Bettas definately need a certain amount of territory for them selves.
> If a tank isn't large enough to house either a male or female Betta
> with other tank mates than it feels threatened and will pursue the
> "intruder".
> Sometimes the tank simply doesn't have enough decorations or plants to
> establish proper territories, and hence the Betta feels threatented and
> goes after the tank mate.
> So please, Koi-Lo, research a bit more about Bettas. They'll be better
> for it, and you can also then give out proper advice about them as
> well.
>

Hmmmm, you've given me an idea....I'd never thought of putting the two
betta tanks together - one of them (Bob's tank) is in quite a dark area
so I struggle to keep it pretty for him and was going to be moving it as
soon as I thought of a good location...if he moved next to Boris the
tank would get more light - and I might get some workspace back in the
kitchen :-)

Thanks
Gill

Koi-lo

November 17th 05, 08:36 PM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> ## I never trust bettas. They can turn on other fish in a heartbeat.
>> All
>> my bettas live alone. >>
============================
> You simply do not understand Bettas.
> Bettas don't just "turn" on tank mates. You simply didn't understand
> the "why".
> (back ground on myself....I have been a Betta fancier for nearly 28 yrs
> and have bred them for many of those years)
> Each Betta has an individual personality. These fish are aware of their
> surroundings too. They really do know who their keeper is. That wiggle
> dance they do every time you walk into the room isn't begging for food
> all the time. They're also trying to get your attention.
> Bettas are also socialble fish. They don't want to be solitary.
> Bettas have a hierarchy and right there that shows you that these fish
> are not solitary by nature.
> Rarely you will find an overly aggressvie Betta that must be kept
> isolated, but the majority are fine in a community tank with suitable
> tank mates for the Betta, as they are usually the ones getting nipped,
> not the other way around.
> Many times a male that is put into a community tank may huff and puff
> at first, but usually they calm down right away as soon as they realize
> these other fish aren't going to harm them.

## I agree with most of this but I have seen bettas I raised myself go very
well in a community tank, then for no good reason we could ever see -
suddenly viciously rip another fishes tail or other fins. We didn't just
suspect them of doing it, we saw them do it. :-(

> Many times Bettas that are kept solitary become listless and bored.
> Some even go into depression without a flare buddy or tank mates.
> I hope you are keeping your solitary males next to each other so that
> they can flare with each other.

## I agree with this as well. I keep mine next to each other on a
windowsill. They seem to enjoy watching what's going on outside, each other
and what we're doing. :-)

> Another common myth is that they will be stressed too much and die if
> housed next to other males permantly. It just isn't so.
> They actually need the exercise and stimulation.
> The largest myth out there regarding Bettas is that they *prefer* small
> tanks without filtration. Absolutely untrue.

## Agreed! Each of mine has a bowl or small tank complete with gravel and
at least one live plant. They live up to 4 years. I haven't bred them here
because I'd have to do too much work on our hard alkaline water. In NYC it
was a softer acid water and they'd breed like crazy.

> Just because they can survive in a small, unfiltered tank doesn't mean
> that they enjoy or prefer it, and don't succumb to the affects of dirty
> water like regular fish do.
> Bettas, like every fish in the world, benefit from filtration.
> In smaller tanks (minimum 1gal) their water should be changed 100% 1-2
> times weekly in order for them to not suffer from high nitrite/nitrate
> and ammonia levels, just like other fish.

## You can help Prevent that with a small amount of gravel and one floating
water lettuce. WL doesn't get large in bowls and tanks but sure sucks up
the phosphates and nitrates.

> Because Bettas can breathe surface air with their labyrinth organ
> people mistakingly believe that this means they prefer to live in small
> spaces and don't suffer the ill affects of high ammonia or
> nirtite/nitrates levels. I'll never understand why folks think this
> way.

## They simply don't know any better.

> Sometimes the tank simply doesn't have enough decorations or plants to
> establish proper territories, and hence the Betta feels threatented and
> goes after the tank mate.

## All my tanks are full of plants and natural rocks. Nothing artificial.
Why some of these males take exception to tankmates they've been with and
start shredding their fins we'll never know for sure. I simply removed them
to gallon pickle jars when caught in the act.

> So please, Koi-Lo, research a bit more about Bettas. They'll be better
> for it, and you can also then give out proper advice about them as
> well.

## I stand by what I said since I caught them in the act. There was no
reason that we could see for them to suddenly come up next to another fish
and quickly and viciously rip it's fins..... no bubble nests were present.
The other fish were no threat to them in any way. The only other
explanation was they may have been a particularly aggressive strain of
bettas. To this day I don't keep them in community tanks. If a betta is
added to a community and suddenly you start seeing ripped fins - he's the
one to watch . :-) And yes, I will always keep bettas as I love them to
death. I just bought a female for $3.49 because of her beauty and
perfection. Who knows,... maybe I will try breeding them in our water.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 17th 05, 08:41 PM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hmmmm, you've given me an idea....I'd never thought of putting the two
> betta tanks together - one of them (Bob's tank) is in quite a dark area so
> I struggle to keep it pretty for him and was going to be moving it as soon
> as I thought of a good location...if he moved next to Boris the tank would
> get more light - and I might get some workspace back in the kitchen :-)
=======================
Most of my bettas are on my sunny kitchen windowsill. They're next to each
other in an assortment of bowls with gravel and a water lettuce in each.
The window is a double-pane but on really cold nights I move them to the
counter. Two are in my sunroom. One beauty is in a filtered 2 gallon tank
and an aged no longer attractive male is in a gallon pickle jar amid the
tropical houseplants. You can say he's in retirement.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 17th 05, 08:51 PM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Bettas in dirty, colder water are suceptible to diseases such Fin Rot
> and Fungus when they have been damaged.
================
My dream is to have a row of 2 gallon heated and filtered tanks in my
sunroom, each with a beautiful male betta of a different color..........
we all have our dreams. :-) Actually I do have 2 gallon tanks with those
clear glass betta dividers. Unfortunately I can't get parts for the special
filters needed. The middle sucks up the water and it's returned to the 2
outer compartments. They can't be filtered with anything else that I have
seen. An UGF raised the dividers too much and makes too much current in the
return section. Cleaning them weekly is too much.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Tynk

November 17th 05, 08:58 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> ## I never trust bettas. They can turn on other fish in a heartbeat.
> >> All
> >> my bettas live alone. >>
> ============================
> > You simply do not understand Bettas.
> > Bettas don't just "turn" on tank mates. You simply didn't understand
> > the "why".
> > (back ground on myself....I have been a Betta fancier for nearly 28 yrs
> > and have bred them for many of those years)
> > Each Betta has an individual personality. These fish are aware of their
> > surroundings too. They really do know who their keeper is. That wiggle
> > dance they do every time you walk into the room isn't begging for food
> > all the time. They're also trying to get your attention.
> > Bettas are also socialble fish. They don't want to be solitary.
> > Bettas have a hierarchy and right there that shows you that these fish
> > are not solitary by nature.
> > Rarely you will find an overly aggressvie Betta that must be kept
> > isolated, but the majority are fine in a community tank with suitable
> > tank mates for the Betta, as they are usually the ones getting nipped,
> > not the other way around.
> > Many times a male that is put into a community tank may huff and puff
> > at first, but usually they calm down right away as soon as they realize
> > these other fish aren't going to harm them.
>
> ## I agree with most of this but I have seen bettas I raised myself go very
> well in a community tank, then for no good reason we could ever see -
> suddenly viciously rip another fishes tail or other fins. We didn't just
> suspect them of doing it, we saw them do it. :-(
>
> > Many times Bettas that are kept solitary become listless and bored.
> > Some even go into depression without a flare buddy or tank mates.
> > I hope you are keeping your solitary males next to each other so that
> > they can flare with each other.
>
> ## I agree with this as well. I keep mine next to each other on a
> windowsill. They seem to enjoy watching what's going on outside, each other
> and what we're doing. :-)
>
> > Another common myth is that they will be stressed too much and die if
> > housed next to other males permantly. It just isn't so.
> > They actually need the exercise and stimulation.
> > The largest myth out there regarding Bettas is that they *prefer* small
> > tanks without filtration. Absolutely untrue.
>
> ## Agreed! Each of mine has a bowl or small tank complete with gravel and
> at least one live plant. They live up to 4 years. I haven't bred them here
> because I'd have to do too much work on our hard alkaline water. In NYC it
> was a softer acid water and they'd breed like crazy.
>
> > Just because they can survive in a small, unfiltered tank doesn't mean
> > that they enjoy or prefer it, and don't succumb to the affects of dirty
> > water like regular fish do.
> > Bettas, like every fish in the world, benefit from filtration.
> > In smaller tanks (minimum 1gal) their water should be changed 100% 1-2
> > times weekly in order for them to not suffer from high nitrite/nitrate
> > and ammonia levels, just like other fish.
>
> ## You can help Prevent that with a small amount of gravel and one floating
> water lettuce. WL doesn't get large in bowls and tanks but sure sucks up
> the phosphates and nitrates.
>
> > Because Bettas can breathe surface air with their labyrinth organ
> > people mistakingly believe that this means they prefer to live in small
> > spaces and don't suffer the ill affects of high ammonia or
> > nirtite/nitrates levels. I'll never understand why folks think this
> > way.
>
> ## They simply don't know any better.
>
> > Sometimes the tank simply doesn't have enough decorations or plants to
> > establish proper territories, and hence the Betta feels threatented and
> > goes after the tank mate.
>
> ## All my tanks are full of plants and natural rocks. Nothing artificial.
> Why some of these males take exception to tankmates they've been with and
> start shredding their fins we'll never know for sure. I simply removed them
> to gallon pickle jars when caught in the act.
>
> > So please, Koi-Lo, research a bit more about Bettas. They'll be better
> > for it, and you can also then give out proper advice about them as
> > well.
>
> ## I stand by what I said since I caught them in the act. There was no
> reason that we could see for them to suddenly come up next to another fish
> and quickly and viciously rip it's fins..... no bubble nests were present.
> The other fish were no threat to them in any way. The only other
> explanation was they may have been a particularly aggressive strain of
> bettas. To this day I don't keep them in community tanks. If a betta is
> added to a community and suddenly you start seeing ripped fins - he's the
> one to watch . :-) And yes, I will always keep bettas as I love them to
> death. I just bought a female for $3.49 because of her beauty and
> perfection. Who knows,... maybe I will try breeding them in our water.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
Koi-Lo...
Please explain how you are keeping their water temp where it needs to
be (78-80*f) at a constant temp when you are housing them in pickle
jars on your wondow sill?
Their temp would be going up and down constantly.
You never want the water temp to bounce up and down.
Also, you mention you never saw a reason for your male to nip a tank
mate.
What tank mates were these fish and what size tank was it?
You need to also remember that Bettas are thinking fish. There are
valid reasons for what they do.
If you had an aggressive strain going, then they would be overly
aggressive from the start.
I never spawn overly aggressive fish (not saying you do or did) because
that is absolutely passed down.
When I spawn I go for a more peaceful Betta. They also have to have a
perfect body type that I'm going for, fin formation and particular
color. If not, they're not worthy.
So how many Betta spawns have had and what types/colors were you
working?

Tynk

November 17th 05, 09:01 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Bettas in dirty, colder water are suceptible to diseases such Fin Rot
> > and Fungus when they have been damaged.
> ================
> My dream is to have a row of 2 gallon heated and filtered tanks in my
> sunroom, each with a beautiful male betta of a different color..........
> we all have our dreams. :-) Actually I do have 2 gallon tanks with those
> clear glass betta dividers. Unfortunately I can't get parts for the special
> filters needed. The middle sucks up the water and it's returned to the 2
> outer compartments. They can't be filtered with anything else that I have
> seen. An UGF raised the dividers too much and makes too much current in the
> return section. Cleaning them weekly is too much.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
Koi-Lo wrote:
Actually I do have 2 gallon tanks with those
> clear glass betta dividers. Unfortunately I can't get parts for the special
> filters needed.
Simple.
Don't divide them. Give each male the 2 gallon tank and use a small
submersible heater, and either a small sponge filter or even a mini
power filter. They have them and are not hard to f ind.

Koi-lo

November 18th 05, 01:38 AM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Koi-Lo...
> Please explain how you are keeping their water temp where it needs to
> be (78-80*f) at a constant temp when you are housing them in pickle
> jars on your wondow sill?

## I've been keeping bettas on and off since I'm a teenager and seldom had
a heater in the tank unless I was breeding them. My sunroom doesn't drop
below 74F. At that temp bettas will live up to 4 years. At least most of
mine do.

> Their temp would be going up and down constantly.

## As it does in nature.

> You never want the water temp to bounce up and down.

## The temps where bettas come from do not stay the same 24/7. If it was a
problem they wouldn't live for 4 years.

> Also, you mention you never saw a reason for your male to nip a tank
> mate.
> What tank mates were these fish and what size tank was it?

## Standard 10s, 20L and 30Ls in those days, fully planted, shale rocks and
and an assortment of tropicals with the exception of known fin nippers such
as Tiger barbs.

> You need to also remember that Bettas are thinking fish. There are
> valid reasons for what they do.
> If you had an aggressive strain going, then they would be overly
> aggressive from the start.

## But we can't know that until we put them in a community tank. And yes,
I know some males don't bother other fish all their lives under community
conditions - but these did!

> I never spawn overly aggressive fish (not saying you do or did) because
> that is absolutely passed down.
> When I spawn I go for a more peaceful Betta. They also have to have a
> perfect body type that I'm going for, fin formation and particular
> color. If not, they're not worthy.

## Since I was selling them to local pet shops at the time I bred the best
I could get or breed myself. They were mainly the true reds, deep midnight
blues and one strain was as green as you could find back then.

> So how many Betta spawns have had and what types/colors were you
> working?

## Back in the 1960s and 70s = 3, see above. But working a full time job
and having so many jars to clean finally made it impractical, and after a
few years I gave it up. I would leave the males together as long as
possible. Females were a problem getting rid of as the stores would only
take a few each time. I would never get into it like that again. I had
similar problems with my African Cichlids - not enough market for the young
produced. This year I'm overloaded with shubunkin goldfish and assorted
koi.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 18th 05, 01:41 AM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
> Actually I do have 2 gallon tanks with those
>> clear glass betta dividers. Unfortunately I can't get parts for the
>> special
>> filters needed.
===================
> Simple.
> Don't divide them. Give each male the 2 gallon tank and use a small
> submersible heater, and either a small sponge filter or even a mini
> power filter. They have them and are not hard to f ind.
========
Not quite that simple. I don't have the space to give each a 2 gallon tank.
There's only so many tanks that room will hold.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Tynk

November 18th 05, 05:24 AM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> > Actually I do have 2 gallon tanks with those
> >> clear glass betta dividers. Unfortunately I can't get parts for the
> >> special
> >> filters needed.
> ===================
> > Simple.
> > Don't divide them. Give each male the 2 gallon tank and use a small
> > submersible heater, and either a small sponge filter or even a mini
> > power filter. They have them and are not hard to f ind.
> ========
> Not quite that simple. I don't have the space to give each a 2 gallon tank.
> There's only so many tanks that room will hold.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> > Simple.
> > Don't divide them. Give each male the 2 gallon tank and use a small
> > submersible heater, and either a small sponge filter or even a mini
> > power filter. They have them and are not hard to f ind.
> ========
> Not quite that simple. I don't have the space to give each a 2 gallon tank.
> There's only so many tanks that room will hold.

Well, I still say it is that simple. Just don't house more than what
can go into appropriate sized tanks.
I would much rather keep less of them and house them properly.

Koi-lo

November 18th 05, 05:48 AM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> Not quite that simple. I don't have the space to give each a 2 gallon
>> tank.
>> There's only so many tanks that room will hold.
================
> Well, I still say it is that simple. Just don't house more than what
> can go into appropriate sized tanks.
> I would much rather keep less of them and house them properly.
===========
To each his (or her) own. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Karen Garza

November 18th 05, 02:22 PM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> Bettas are also socialble fish. They don't want to be solitary.
> Bettas have a hierarchy and right there that shows you that these fish
> are not solitary by nature

> Bettas definately need a certain amount of territory for them selves.
> If a tank isn't large enough to house either a male or female Betta
> with other tank mates than it feels threatened and will pursue the
> "intruder".

I don't have any Bettas, but I am thinking about getting one. I want to know
the facts first though. So what is a suitable size tank for a Betta and a
few tank mates? And which fish are suitable tank mates for a Betta? Is it
good to keep a male and female together? What food is suitable? Does it need
to be live food, or would dried or frozen work just as well?
Do you know of any good websites about Bettas?
Hmm...I think I need to do a google search.

Karen

Cassie

November 18th 05, 02:23 PM

Yeah... My betta had a bubble nest and for some reason my goldfish was eating it. He was popping the bubbles. But that was like 2 weeks ago. i guess she finally got ****ed off and battled w/ him over night. I think he died both from not having enough air and his injuries. Looked like he was itnernally bleeding r something...My bettas fins are growing back more quickly than I thought. But he started thrashing around in the water today for nothing and I got really scared so I turned on the air pump I have...I know they breathe from the atmosphere but that was the same thing the goldfish was doing right before he died, and I am totally in love with my betta so I dont want him to die too. Can anyone tell me why he was thrashing around @ nothing? When he did little pieces of his fin started to come off again- that was upsetting. And he used to have a huge appetite, still really isnt eating, this was 3 days ago..Also looks depressed, not nearly as active as before. Is this normal? If so how long should it last before I get really concerned? Thanks for all the answers and help!

Tynk

November 18th 05, 04:18 PM

Karen Garza wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>
> > Bettas are also socialble fish. They don't want to be solitary.
> > Bettas have a hierarchy and right there that shows you that these fish
> > are not solitary by nature
>
> > Bettas definately need a certain amount of territory for them selves.
> > If a tank isn't large enough to house either a male or female Betta
> > with other tank mates than it feels threatened and will pursue the
> > "intruder".
>
>
> I don't have any Bettas, but I am thinking about getting one. I want to know
> the facts first though. So what is a suitable size tank for a Betta and a
> few tank mates? And which fish are suitable tank mates for a Betta? Is it
> good to keep a male and female together? What food is suitable? Does it need
> to be live food, or would dried or frozen work just as well?
> Do you know of any good websites about Bettas?
> Hmm...I think I need to do a google search.
>
> Karen
> I don't have any Bettas, but I am thinking about getting one. I want to know
> the facts first though. So what is a suitable size tank for a Betta and a
> few tank mates? And which fish are suitable tank mates for a Betta? Is it
> good to keep a male and female together? What food is suitable? Does it need
> to be live food, or would dried or frozen work just as well?
> Do you know of any good websites about Bettas?
> Hmm...I think I need to do a google search.
>
> Karen

First I want to say YIPPY - YEA for you!!! Asking first.
You'll soon find out how very cool these little fish are.
I guess people like Koi-Lo aren't into what's best for the fish, just
what's best for them and that isn't right IMO.
The smallest tank you should ever house a Betta in would be 1g.
However, unless it's in a heated fish room it really isn't going to
work, as the room temp rises and falls (this is what's happening in
Kio-Lo's Betta jars and the reason for my comments on it). This is very
stressful on any fish. That's why heaters are a must.
They do make small, pre-set ones that have no thermostat in them. Not a
good thing because the temp will rise above the pre-set temp during the
day when a tank light it is, or the house warms up, etc. Again, you'd
have rising and falling temps.
I recommend for single Bettas something like an Eclipse 3 (called
system 3). It's a 3 gallon that comes with a fluorescent light, filter,
bio-wheel, and the motor actually heats the water temp to keep them
toasty. It's large enough to house either a few Pygmy Cories (mini
Cories), or a couple of Otocinclus cats (Oto's for short).
When tank mates are wanted, then you need to go into a larger tank.
I would say nothing smaller than a 10g if you wanted other fish in the
tank with him.
Obviously, the larger the tank, the better.
Do not believe the bunk about Bettas prefering small spaces. They
don't.
Male Bettas are so often kept in tiny isolation cups/jars and look
terrified when put into a large tank. It's simply because they are a
little overwhelmed at first. Give them anywhere from a few mintues, to
a few days and they're claiming every inch of that tank....no matter
how large it is.
I like to alternate my males into the 75g. They absolutely love it.
They cover every inch of it, all day and night.
People also tend to think of Bettas as slow moving fish and that they
cannot swim fast because of their long, flowing fins. Hogwash!
Some have been cooped up in tiny spaces from about the age of 2-3
months old and honestly don't know how to swim. They actually have to
learn. Once they do though, you'd never call a Betta a slow moving fish
again. They can move fast when they want to, and especially at feeding
time.
People often think that Bettas will rip apart tank mates. It's usually
the Betta that is getting nipped when put in with the wrong tank types
of fish.
The cardinal rule with Bettas is that each one is different. They all
have individual personalities, likes and disklikes. This needs to be
taken into consideration with each and every Betta. When I list tank
mates, it is in general, and some Bettas may not tolerate certain ones,
some may even go after certain species of fish, and some even certain
colors of fish. So rememeber this when trying out any Betta. = )
Obviously, the size tank dictates how many and what type of tank mates
you can try, so I'm just going to give a small example.
Neon or Cardinal Tetras are fine, as long as they are large. When
small, they're snacks.
I've heard Cherry barbs are usually ok, but Barb's are usually way too
nippy for male Bettas, so check on the Cherrys.
African Dwarf Frogs.
Cories ..depending on the species per size of the adults. Cories need
to be kept in schools, so their adult size dictates which type you can
have in the size tank you have and the bio load already in it.
Platies
Variatus
Gouramis are generally a No No, as they are too closely related and
quarrel, but I have found Pearls and Powder Blue's peaceful enough to
be housed with Bettas.
Angelfish...this depends on both the Betta and the Angels. Both have
individual personalities, so this must be done with care.
I house Angelfish with all my female Bettas and a resident male in the
75g all the time.
They ignore each other, unless the Angel are spawning or about to. I
have had a male a timeor two that was nipping at the ventral fins of
the Angels and I have 2 Angelfish that have shredded a male Betta here
and there, but it's not the norm. Most will say I'm crazy for housing
Angelfish and Bettas together, but I have found them to be perfectly
fine for 98% of the time (close to 28 yrs of doing it).
Mollies, and Swords can be iffy...some are too nippy for a male Betta,
but many times they're fine. So if you went this route they must be
watched. If your male Betta turns up with fin damage, it's them. I
choose to not house them together because of how many times I've tried
it and they (either a Molly or a Swordtail) have nipped up a male.
Females don't generally have these probs, unless they're long finned
females, but they are not as common in shops.
Any snails are fine.
Most of the Loach family is fine. DoJo's, Clown, Khuli, etc. (tank size
dictates again).
Goldfish are NOT compatible.
Guppies...are usually fine. There is the occasonal male Betta that will
go after a male Fancy Gup, but I've not had problems with this combo
for most of the time.
I have a male that wanted to kill male Fancy Guppies of the same color
as he was, and another that simply thought it was too similar to a male
Betta, but it always depends on the individual Betta. Again, female
Bettas do not have to be watched in this situation.
Female Bettas....this is where it gets a little tricky.
The tank must be larger enough, have enough plants, hiding places, etc
and both the male and female's personality must allow for it.
I always keep a resident male in with my females.
I have the occasional male over the years that wouldn't tolerate
females in the tank, but most of those were overly aggressive and went
after any tank mates, so needed to be in isolation. This is on the rare
side though, as most huff and puff for a few hours, to a few days and
then simply ignore each other for the most part.
However, take that same batch of females (should be kept in 3 or
more...as they form a hierarchy and it is incomplete if only 2 are
together and the alpha would constantly pick on the lesser in rank) and
remove the decorations and plants and they go after each other like
they're on drugs. It's amazing how absolutely necessary enough plants
and hiding places are when keeping both sexes together. They also need
enough tank space to figure out their own little territories. When all
of that is done right, their persoanlities must allow for it as well.
Some females will not tolerate a male and will shred him to pieces, and
vice versa. You don't know how the individuals are unless you try it
out, but before doing so you must have a back up plan in case it
doesn't.
When first put together there is usually posturing, fin flashing,
chasing and even some nips here and there. (this is the same thing when
putting females together. They are figuring the hierarchy out and when
their places are figured out, all is well). This is all normal in the
Betta world and this is where people who don't any better would think
they can't live together and separate them. It's usually a case of the
hobbyist not knowing how Bettas behave naturally.
Even a little bit of a nipped fin is normal at first. However,
shredding and chunks of flesh being taken are not. That is obvious over
aggression and the aggressor, male or female as both can be like this,
needs to be removed. That's where that back up plan comes into play.
A filter is needed and the water temp should be kept at 78-80* f.
Bettas need clean water too. They sometimes need to learn how to swim
with a current, as they are often kept in unfiltered tanks so often
that they need to learn how to use those fins to swim.
I do not use power heads, nor recommend them with male Bettas, as it is
too strong of a current. Most power filters are fine and the fish
learns to either avoid the current, or they actually enjoy swimming in
it. Again, the myth that they prefer still waters is busted with so
many male Bettas seaking out the currents of filters and playing in
them.
It's actually kind of funny to watch, and it's quite obvious that the
fish enjoys it as well.
Of ocurse there are some Bettas that don't like the current and avoid
it.
Being that they are so different with what they like or dislike is why
so much false information is out there...except for the
mispromunciation of Betta...that was Petsmart's fault! I swear, if I
came face to face with the person that made the type o and left it (was
spelled "Beta" in a training manual they gave to their employee's yrs
like 15+ yrs ago), I 'd deck them! These fish deserve to be called by
called by their proper (common) name..
Bet-uh, not bait-uh. Forget about that "Tuh-mah-to - tuh-may-to"
reference. It doesn't work, as you would have to change the spelling of
Betta to Beta in order for it to work like that.
Well I think I've covered most of it for ya. Everything from tank size
to the name, hehe.
If I haven't explained something you were wondering about, just ask.
I can go into their body language another time, as I'm getting a little
soar from being at the puter (neck) for a while. Once you learn to
reccognize their body language, and what it all means, it's so cool to
be able to see what they're "saying" to each other.
It's also so easy to realize the "why's" as well. Bettas are thinking
fish, and do things for a reason. Knowing their body language is as
important to me as having the proper tank conditions.
Have a Betta day! = )~

Koi-lo

November 18th 05, 04:47 PM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Karen
>> I don't have any Bettas, but I am thinking about getting one. I want to
>> know
>> the facts first though. So what is a suitable size tank for a Betta and a
>> few tank mates? And which fish are suitable tank mates for a Betta? Is it
>> good to keep a male and female together? What food is suitable? Does it
>> need
>> to be live food, or would dried or frozen work just as well?
>> Do you know of any good websites about Bettas?
>> Hmm...I think I need to do a google search.
>>
>> Karen
>
> First I want to say YIPPY - YEA for you!!! Asking first.
> You'll soon find out how very cool these little fish are.
> I guess people like Koi-Lo aren't into what's best for the fish, just
> what's best for them and that isn't right IMO.

## When Bettas live as long as 4 years there is nothing wrong with their
care.

> The smallest tank you should ever house a Betta in would be 1g.
> However, unless it's in a heated fish room it really isn't going to
> work, as the room temp rises and falls (this is what's happening in
> Kio-Lo's Betta jars and the reason for my comments on it).

## Which the bettas adapt to as they do in nature and live their full
lifespans. ;-)

This is very
> stressful on any fish. That's why heaters are a must.

## There are no heaters in nature. As long as bettas are kept over 72F they
do fine. For breeding you need a heater to keep the water around 80F.
Everyone's experience is different. I must have a really robust strain of
bettas.

> They do make small, pre-set ones that have no thermostat in them. Not a
> good thing because the temp will rise above the pre-set temp during the
> day when a tank light it is, or the house warms up, etc. Again, you'd
> have rising and falling temps.

## Which happens in nature. Where on earth does the temp stay the same
24/7/365? If varying temps were harmful my bettas wouldn't be living their
full lifespans.

> Obviously, the larger the tank, the better.

## This applies to all fish.

> Do not believe the bunk about Bettas prefering small spaces. They
> don't.

## This is surely true.

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

David Zopf

November 18th 05, 05:03 PM

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...

> This is very
>> stressful on any fish. That's why heaters are a must.
>
> ## There are no heaters in nature.

That's kind of a misleading comment, isn't it? "In nature" the size of the
body of water acts to mitigate temperature changes, even in something the
size of a small pond (compared to a 1-2 gallon fish bowl).

> As long as bettas are kept over 72F they do fine.

I'd say Over 72F _and steady_, and they'll do OK. If your ambient air
temperature is variable or consistently under your target temperature (as it
always is in the fall/winters here in New England), then the heater is
called for. If you live in a more temperate or tropical (or continually
air-conditioned) climate, then it isn't a requirement.

>> They do make small, pre-set ones that have no thermostat in them. Not a
>> good thing because the temp will rise above the pre-set temp during the
>> day when a tank light it is, or the house warms up, etc. Again, you'd
>> have rising and falling temps.
>
> ## Which happens in nature. Where on earth does the temp stay the same
> 24/7/365? If varying temps were harmful my bettas wouldn't be living
> their full lifespans.
>
Rate of change matters. The smaller the body of water, the quicker the
rate of temperature change. As when a young child goes from a warm house to
the chilly outdoors when under-dressed; expect health problems to result
from irresponsible care and rapid changes in environment. The significance
of this to fishkeeping varies significantly by geography and what the
fishkeeper maintains as their ambient air setup in their home (which is why
I suspect you and Tynk are "at odds" on this topic).

Regards
DaveZ
Atom Weaver

Koi-lo

November 18th 05, 07:22 PM

"David Zopf" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Tynk" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>
>> This is very
>>> stressful on any fish. That's why heaters are a must.
>>
>> ## There are no heaters in nature.
>
> That's kind of a misleading comment, isn't it? "In nature" the size of
> the body of water acts to mitigate temperature changes, even in something
> the size of a small pond (compared to a 1-2 gallon fish bowl).

## To some extent this is true. I have two ponds (800g and 2000g) and the
temp varies from day to night, and day to day by several degrees.

>> As long as bettas are kept over 72F they do fine.

> I'd say Over 72F _and steady_, and they'll do OK. If your ambient air
> temperature is variable or consistently under your target temperature (as
> it always is in the fall/winters here in New England), then the heater is
> called for. If you live in a more temperate or tropical (or continually
> air-conditioned) climate, then it isn't a requirement.

## If I were in New England and had a cool house I would then have to do
something about heating the bettas.
I just looked at the thermometer in the middle bowl. It's 74F.

>>> They do make small, pre-set ones that have no thermostat in them. Not a
>>> good thing because the temp will rise above the pre-set temp during the
>>> day when a tank light it is, or the house warms up, etc. Again, you'd
>>> have rising and falling temps.

>> ## Which happens in nature. Where on earth does the temp stay the same
>> 24/7/365? If varying temps were harmful my bettas wouldn't be living
>> their full lifespans.

> Rate of change matters. The smaller the body of water, the quicker the
> rate of temperature change.

## And bettas live in everything from puddles to flooded paddies. I have
not had a problem with them not adapting to these daily changes.

As when a young child goes from a warm house to
> the chilly outdoors when under-dressed; expect health problems to result
> from irresponsible care and rapid changes in environment.

## There are no rapid changes. Their bowls slowly drop in temperature at
night, then warm up a few degrees in the daytime. They live an average of 4
years. You can't expect much more from a betta.

The significance
> of this to fishkeeping varies significantly by geography and what the
> fishkeeper maintains as their ambient air setup in their home (which is
> why I suspect you and Tynk are "at odds" on this topic).

## I assume the betta owners or those thinking about getting one (or more)
would have a thermometer and use it. If someone keeps their house at 68 to
70F then I would say that is too cool for a tropical betta or any tropical
fish - they need a heater. I find the water in the tanks and bowls is
always a little cooler than the temp of the room. Our house is on the warm
side so even the platties don't have a heater. They too are thriving and
reproducing.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Daniel Morrow

November 19th 05, 12:09 AM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bottom posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"Cassie" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yeah... My betta had a bubble nest and for some reason my goldfish
was
> eating it. He was popping the bubbles. But that was like 2 weeks
ago. i
> guess she finally got ****ed off and battled w/ him over night. I
think
> he died both from not having enough air and his injuries. Looked
like
> he was itnernally bleeding r something...My bettas fins are
growing
> back more quickly than I thought. But he started thrashing around
in
> the water today for nothing and I got really scared so I turned on
the
> air pump I have...I know they breathe from the atmosphere but that
was
> the same thing the goldfish was doing right before he died, and I
am
> totally in love with my betta so I dont want him to die too. Can
anyone
> tell me why he was thrashing around @ nothing? When he did little
pieces
> of his fin started to come off again- that was upsetting. And he
used to
> have a huge appetite, still really isnt eating, this was 3 days
> ago..Also looks depressed, not nearly as active as before. Is this
> normal? If so how long should it last before I get really
concerned?
> Thanks for all the answers and help!
>
>
> --
> Cassie

Cassie - my understanding is that a beta usually breathes oxygen from
the water but CAN breath atmospheric air - which is probably why
bettas are sensitive to water clarity as much as most other fish.
Please be sure his water quality (i.e. ammonia, nitrite, etc.) is
good. If you're proactive enough but don't want to buy test kits and
if you live near a city/town with a pet shop take a sample to your
local fish store and have them test it for you. I can't say any more
than that - good luck and later!

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Tynk

November 19th 05, 03:09 AM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "David Zopf" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > "Koi-lo" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> >
> >> This is very
> >>> stressful on any fish. That's why heaters are a must.
> >>
> >> ## There are no heaters in nature.
> >
> > That's kind of a misleading comment, isn't it? "In nature" the size of
> > the body of water acts to mitigate temperature changes, even in something
> > the size of a small pond (compared to a 1-2 gallon fish bowl).
>
> ## To some extent this is true. I have two ponds (800g and 2000g) and the
> temp varies from day to night, and day to day by several degrees.
>
> >> As long as bettas are kept over 72F they do fine.
>
> > I'd say Over 72F _and steady_, and they'll do OK. If your ambient air
> > temperature is variable or consistently under your target temperature (as
> > it always is in the fall/winters here in New England), then the heater is
> > called for. If you live in a more temperate or tropical (or continually
> > air-conditioned) climate, then it isn't a requirement.
>
> ## If I were in New England and had a cool house I would then have to do
> something about heating the bettas.
> I just looked at the thermometer in the middle bowl. It's 74F.
>
> >>> They do make small, pre-set ones that have no thermostat in them. Not a
> >>> good thing because the temp will rise above the pre-set temp during the
> >>> day when a tank light it is, or the house warms up, etc. Again, you'd
> >>> have rising and falling temps.
>
> >> ## Which happens in nature. Where on earth does the temp stay the same
> >> 24/7/365? If varying temps were harmful my bettas wouldn't be living
> >> their full lifespans.
>
> > Rate of change matters. The smaller the body of water, the quicker the
> > rate of temperature change.
>
> ## And bettas live in everything from puddles to flooded paddies. I have
> not had a problem with them not adapting to these daily changes.
>
> As when a young child goes from a warm house to
> > the chilly outdoors when under-dressed; expect health problems to result
> > from irresponsible care and rapid changes in environment.
>
> ## There are no rapid changes. Their bowls slowly drop in temperature at
> night, then warm up a few degrees in the daytime. They live an average of 4
> years. You can't expect much more from a betta.
>
> The significance
> > of this to fishkeeping varies significantly by geography and what the
> > fishkeeper maintains as their ambient air setup in their home (which is
> > why I suspect you and Tynk are "at odds" on this topic).
>
> ## I assume the betta owners or those thinking about getting one (or more)
> would have a thermometer and use it. If someone keeps their house at 68 to
> 70F then I would say that is too cool for a tropical betta or any tropical
> fish - they need a heater. I find the water in the tanks and bowls is
> always a little cooler than the temp of the room. Our house is on the warm
> side so even the platties don't have a heater. They too are thriving and
> reproducing.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Well, I simply won't bother to argue with anyone not willing to learn
the proper way to house Bettas.
Simply because some of yours are living to 4 yrs of age doesn't mean
they are kept in perfect conditions. 74*f is TOO COLD!
You are just prolonging their chills.
In the wild their water temp is usually around 80*f. Breeding is
82-83*, not 80*f, as you have stated.
Comparing a little jar, to an entire body of water is just silly.
So if you can't get the facts about Bettas correct, don't bother
replying to any Q's about them.
I'll be glad to handle that for you.

Tynk

November 19th 05, 03:34 AM

Cassie wrote:
> Yeah... My betta had a bubble nest and for some reason my goldfish was
> eating it. He was popping the bubbles. But that was like 2 weeks ago. i
> guess she finally got ****ed off and battled w/ him over night. I think
> he died both from not having enough air and his injuries. Looked like
> he was itnernally bleeding r something...My bettas fins are growing
> back more quickly than I thought. But he started thrashing around in
> the water today for nothing and I got really scared so I turned on the
> air pump I have...I know they breathe from the atmosphere but that was
> the same thing the goldfish was doing right before he died, and I am
> totally in love with my betta so I dont want him to die too. Can anyone
> tell me why he was thrashing around @ nothing? When he did little pieces
> of his fin started to come off again- that was upsetting. And he used to
> have a huge appetite, still really isnt eating, this was 3 days
> ago..Also looks depressed, not nearly as active as before. Is this
> normal? If so how long should it last before I get really concerned?
> Thanks for all the answers and help!
>
>
> --
> Cassie
Cassie,
Thrashing about at the surface is usually a sign of poor water
conditions.
Being that there was a goldfish in this tank makes me think it was
terribly polluted.
I would recommed doing a 50% water change right away.
If you have testing kits, I want you to test before and after the water
change.
Check your ammonia levels and the nitrites.
The little pieces of fin falling off while he was thrashing about could
be damaged tissue falling off from his movements, or possibly diseased
tissue falling off.
Hopefully it's just from damaged fin tissue and will heal.
Clean, warm water is necessary for good healing. Melafix would help a
bit too.
By the way....
The Goldfish was gasping at the surface because it was suffocating.
They do not breathe surface air like Bettas and Gouramis do.

Jeff Harris

November 19th 05, 03:38 AM

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Bottom Posted
Tynk wrote:
> Koi-lo wrote:
>
>>"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>>>Bettas in dirty, colder water are suceptible to diseases such Fin Rot
>>>and Fungus when they have been damaged.
>>
>>================
>>My dream is to have a row of 2 gallon heated and filtered tanks in my
>>sunroom, each with a beautiful male betta of a different color..........
>>we all have our dreams. :-) Actually I do have 2 gallon tanks with those
>>clear glass betta dividers. Unfortunately I can't get parts for the special
>>filters needed. The middle sucks up the water and it's returned to the 2
>>outer compartments. They can't be filtered with anything else that I have
>>seen. An UGF raised the dividers too much and makes too much current in the
>>return section. Cleaning them weekly is too much.
>>--
>>Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>>My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>>http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>>~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> Koi-Lo wrote:
> Actually I do have 2 gallon tanks with those
>
>>clear glass betta dividers. Unfortunately I can't get parts for the special
>>filters needed.
>
> Simple.
> Don't divide them. Give each male the 2 gallon tank and use a small
> submersible heater, and either a small sponge filter or even a mini
> power filter. They have them and are not hard to f ind.
>

Or, drill holes in the dividers for the water.
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Koi-lo

November 19th 05, 03:58 AM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> ## I assume the betta owners or those thinking about getting one (or
>> more)
>> would have a thermometer and use it. If someone keeps their house at 68
>> to
>> 70F then I would say that is too cool for a tropical betta or any
>> tropical
>> fish - they need a heater. I find the water in the tanks and bowls is
>> always a little cooler than the temp of the room. Our house is on the
>> warm
>> side so even the platties don't have a heater. They too are thriving and
>> reproducing.
=================================================
> Well, I simply won't bother to argue with anyone not willing to learn
> the proper way to house Bettas.

$$ You mean YOUR WAY to house bettas. When they live their full life span
without sickness or disease then that way works also.

> Simply because some of yours

$$ Excuse me - virtually ALL of mine.

are living to 4 yrs of age doesn't mean
> they are kept in perfect conditions.

$$ Perfect in your estimation and you're entitled to your opinion. But I'm
entitled to mine as well and I've been keeping them for 45 years.

74*f is TOO COLD!
> You are just prolonging their chills.
> In the wild their water temp is usually around 80*f. Breeding is
> 82-83*, not 80*f, as you have stated.

$$ I stated the temp I bred them at, and what worked for me.

> Comparing a little jar,

$$ These little jars hold 1/2 gallon of water, gravel and a plant. They're
changed weekly. Do you actually believe that betta breeders have filtered
and heated 1 to 2 gallon tanks for each male they raise to sell? I've been
to other breeders facilities. They all kept them in jars, bottles, whatever
was glass and held water. No gravel and no plants. Today I'm sure they
have water run-through setups, not heated, filtered tanks for each fish.

to an entire body of water is just silly.
> So if you can't get the facts about Bettas correct, don't bother
> replying to any Q's about them.

## Correct in YOUR OPINION. Many many people have bettas for years in
nothing more than a goldfish bowl. Maybe that's not 100% ideal, but nothing
in life is.

> I'll be glad to handle that for you.

## No need to.........
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-lo

November 19th 05, 04:05 AM

"Jeff Harris" > wrote in message
...
> Or, drill holes in the dividers for the water.
================================
We can't. They're made of glass and if we crack or break them they're
costly to replace. Also we would still need those filters as they're the
only ones that circulate the water, holes or no holes in the dividers.
Anything else, like those tiny Azoo's would not circulate the water through
a few holes in the glass divider. Only one compartment would be filtered.
When those filters worked these were the best tanks for bettas I've ever
seen. Oh, they also came with glass canopies to prevent jumping.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Tynk

November 20th 05, 01:48 AM

Obviously, all the information out there on properly housing Bettas is
bogus in the mind of "Koi-Lo" and they are calling it all "My opinion".
It's not my opinion, it's fact. Do the research.
Simply having them live in those conditions for 4 yrs only prolonged
how cold they were/are.
They're tropical fish that shouldn't be housed at room temp. That's a
fact.

Tynk

November 20th 05, 06:00 AM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> ## I assume the betta owners or those thinking about getting one (or
> >> more)
> >> would have a thermometer and use it. If someone keeps their house at 68
> >> to
> >> 70F then I would say that is too cool for a tropical betta or any
> >> tropical
> >> fish - they need a heater. I find the water in the tanks and bowls is
> >> always a little cooler than the temp of the room. Our house is on the
> >> warm
> >> side so even the platties don't have a heater. They too are thriving and
> >> reproducing.
> =================================================
> > Well, I simply won't bother to argue with anyone not willing to learn
> > the proper way to house Bettas.
>
> $$ You mean YOUR WAY to house bettas. When they live their full life span
> without sickness or disease then that way works also.
>
> > Simply because some of yours
>
> $$ Excuse me - virtually ALL of mine.
>
> are living to 4 yrs of age doesn't mean
> > they are kept in perfect conditions.
>
> $$ Perfect in your estimation and you're entitled to your opinion. But I'm
> entitled to mine as well and I've been keeping them for 45 years.
>
> 74*f is TOO COLD!
> > You are just prolonging their chills.
> > In the wild their water temp is usually around 80*f. Breeding is
> > 82-83*, not 80*f, as you have stated.
>
> $$ I stated the temp I bred them at, and what worked for me.
>
> > Comparing a little jar,
>
> $$ These little jars hold 1/2 gallon of water, gravel and a plant. They're
> changed weekly. Do you actually believe that betta breeders have filtered
> and heated 1 to 2 gallon tanks for each male they raise to sell? I've been
> to other breeders facilities. They all kept them in jars, bottles, whatever
> was glass and held water. No gravel and no plants. Today I'm sure they
> have water run-through setups, not heated, filtered tanks for each fish.
>
> to an entire body of water is just silly.
> > So if you can't get the facts about Bettas correct, don't bother
> > replying to any Q's about them.
>
> ## Correct in YOUR OPINION. Many many people have bettas for years in
> nothing more than a goldfish bowl. Maybe that's not 100% ideal, but nothing
> in life is.
>
> > I'll be glad to handle that for you.
>
> ## No need to.........
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
Do you actually believe that betta breeders have filtered
> and heated 1 to 2 gallon tanks for each male they raise to sell? I've been
> to other breeders facilities. They all kept them in jars, bottles, whatever
> was glass and held water. No gravel and no plants. Today I'm sure they
> have water run-through setups, not heated, filtered tanks for each fish.

What you don't know is that I am a Betta breeder.
I have bred them for 19 yrs.
What you don't understand is that Betta breeders do not have heaters in
every half gallon jar, of course not. That would be nuts and is silly
to even say such a thing.
They heat the ENTIRE ROOM!!! The room temp water IS heated to about
80*f!
Their spawning tanks are heated so that the temp goes up and stays at
82 or 83*f.
Your last sentence I quoted is rediculous. Do you even know what a "run
through" set up is? Obvously not, as you stated they have "run through
set ups" that aren't filtered.
Those types of set up ARE FILTERED. Duh.
What do you think they are running through them? Do you think they're
just moving dirty water around? Come on. Use some common sense here.
Breeders also don't keep adult males around for long at all. They keep
them for breeding purposes. Ones that are kept as pets are kept in
proper size tanks for the rest of their lives. The smaller, half gallon
to a gallon containers are used for growing juvie males, and to house
spawning males until being put into the spawning tanks, or until the
juvies are sold.
Comparing a breeder's set up to that of a common hobbyist is also
rediculous. They are entirely different situations.
That was about as silly as when you compared the water temp of a jar to
that of an entire rice paddie. Sheesh.

Koi-lo

November 20th 05, 06:51 AM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What you don't know is that I am a Betta breeder.
> I have bred them for 19 yrs.
> What you don't understand is that Betta breeders do not have heaters in
> every half gallon jar, of course not. That would be nuts and is silly
> to even say such a thing.
> They heat the ENTIRE ROOM!!! The room temp water IS heated to about
> 80*f!

## And yet not everyone I knew heated the entire room yet raised beautiful
healthy fish.

> Their spawning tanks are heated so that the temp goes up and stays at
> 82 or 83*f.
> Your last sentence I quoted is rediculous. Do you even know what a "run
> through" set up is? Obvously not, as you stated they have "run through
> set ups" that aren't filtered.

## Everything you disagree with is ridiculous it seems. Yes, run through
setups where the water slowly runs through special cells each holding one
male betta.

> Those types of set up ARE FILTERED. Duh.

## Duh, filter water that's disposed of.... Duh.

> What do you think they are running through them? Do you think they're
> just moving dirty water around? Come on.

## Are you for real? It's obvious you have no clue what a run-through
is.... the water enters at one place, exists at another, causing a constant
slow current removing waste through the system - and disposing of it.

Use some common sense here.
> Breeders also don't keep adult males around for long at all.

## You use some common sense. They're kept until they're large enough to
sell.

They keep
> them for breeding purposes. Ones that are kept as pets are kept in
> proper size tanks for the rest of their lives. The smaller, half gallon
> to a gallon containers are used for growing juvie males, and to house
> spawning males until being put into the spawning tanks, or until the
> juvies are sold.

## So?

> Comparing a breeder's set up to that of a common hobbyist is also
> rediculous. They are entirely different situations.

## Everything that disagrees with you beliefs is ridiculous. Bettas live
their full lifespans under different conditions in different homes with
different water and fed a variety of diets.

> That was about as silly as when you compared the water temp of a jar to
> that of an entire rice paddie. Sheesh.

## Who said entire rice paddy? Lets not change what people say here. The
temps in my betta bowls change slowly from day to night and yet they live 4
years, just like bettas in fish tanks and over-heated rooms. You're making
them sound like hot-house flowers. Maybe you need a hardier strain to breed
if yours sicken under 80F.
--
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Tynk

November 20th 05, 08:22 PM

Koi-Lo wrote:
Maybe you need a hardier strain to breed
if yours sicken under 80F.

What a nitwit this person is.
I never said my Bettas sicken under 80*f. They've never had the chance
to sicken.
I wouldn't ever keep them under 80* f in the first place because that
is too cold for Bettas.
Stick to what you know. Bettas isn't it.

Koi-lo

November 21st 05, 01:02 AM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
> Maybe you need a hardier strain to breed
> if yours sicken under 80F.
>
>
> What a nitwit this person is.

## What a rude insulting person you are. Some strains of bettas are hardier
than others just like some strains are more aggressive.

> I never said my Bettas sicken under 80*f. They've never had the chance
> to sicken.
> I wouldn't ever keep them under 80* f in the first place because that
> is too cold for Bettas.
> Stick to what you know. Bettas isn't it.

## My bettas do just fine thank you, like millions of other bettas living
with their owners under normal household temperatures. :-)
--
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Tynk

November 21st 05, 07:22 PM

Koi-Lo wrote:

## My bettas do just fine thank you, like millions of other bettas
living
with their owners under normal household temperatures. :-)

Surviving and thriving are 2 very different things.
Please research and find where it tells youthe optimum temp that they
should be kept at.
I'm not talking about the little web pages that anyone and their uncle
can make. I'm talking about professional breeder's pages, etc.
You find where it says that 74* or below is their optimum temp.
You won't be able to.
You seem to keep thinking that this is my personal opinion. It's not.
When I say that the perfect tank for single male Bettas is a 3g
Eclipse....yes...that is my personal opinion.
However, the temp that they should be kept at is not my opinion. It's
fact.

Tynk

November 22nd 05, 03:22 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> ## I assume the betta owners or those thinking about getting one (or
> >> more)
> >> would have a thermometer and use it. If someone keeps their house at 68
> >> to
> >> 70F then I would say that is too cool for a tropical betta or any
> >> tropical
> >> fish - they need a heater. I find the water in the tanks and bowls is
> >> always a little cooler than the temp of the room. Our house is on the
> >> warm
> >> side so even the platties don't have a heater. They too are thriving and
> >> reproducing.
> =================================================
> > Well, I simply won't bother to argue with anyone not willing to learn
> > the proper way to house Bettas.
>
> $$ You mean YOUR WAY to house bettas. When they live their full life span
> without sickness or disease then that way works also.
>
> > Simply because some of yours
>
> $$ Excuse me - virtually ALL of mine.
>
> are living to 4 yrs of age doesn't mean
> > they are kept in perfect conditions.
>
> $$ Perfect in your estimation and you're entitled to your opinion. But I'm
> entitled to mine as well and I've been keeping them for 45 years.
>
> 74*f is TOO COLD!
> > You are just prolonging their chills.
> > In the wild their water temp is usually around 80*f. Breeding is
> > 82-83*, not 80*f, as you have stated.
>
> $$ I stated the temp I bred them at, and what worked for me.
>
> > Comparing a little jar,
>
> $$ These little jars hold 1/2 gallon of water, gravel and a plant. They're
> changed weekly. Do you actually believe that betta breeders have filtered
> and heated 1 to 2 gallon tanks for each male they raise to sell? I've been
> to other breeders facilities. They all kept them in jars, bottles, whatever
> was glass and held water. No gravel and no plants. Today I'm sure they
> have water run-through setups, not heated, filtered tanks for each fish.
>
> to an entire body of water is just silly.
> > So if you can't get the facts about Bettas correct, don't bother
> > replying to any Q's about them.
>
> ## Correct in YOUR OPINION. Many many people have bettas for years in
> nothing more than a goldfish bowl. Maybe that's not 100% ideal, but nothing
> in life is.
>
> > I'll be glad to handle that for you.
>
> ## No need to.........
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

> $$ These little jars hold 1/2 gallon of water, gravel and a plant.
I've seen these tiny jars on your "Aquarium" part of the web page
youhave.
I doubt these hold a half gallon of water. They appear to be those tiny
"Ivy" bowls often used in crafts shops to hold potpouri, and in pet
shops to display male bettas until purchasing.
These are absolutley unacceptable as permanent housing.
They're hardly bigger than the males they hold.
I wouldn't house a 2 month old juvie in something so small, let alone a
fully grown male for the rest of it's sad life!

Koi-lo

November 22nd 05, 06:33 PM

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> "Tynk" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> > Koi-lo wrote:
>> >> ## I assume the betta owners or those thinking about getting one (or
>> >> more)
>> >> would have a thermometer and use it. If someone keeps their house at
>> >> 68
>> >> to
>> >> 70F then I would say that is too cool for a tropical betta or any
>> >> tropical
>> >> fish - they need a heater. I find the water in the tanks and bowls is
>> >> always a little cooler than the temp of the room. Our house is on the
>> >> warm
>> >> side so even the platties don't have a heater. They too are thriving
>> >> and
>> >> reproducing.
>> =================================================
>> > Well, I simply won't bother to argue with anyone not willing to learn
>> > the proper way to house Bettas.
>>
>> $$ You mean YOUR WAY to house bettas. When they live their full life
>> span
>> without sickness or disease then that way works also.
>>
>> > Simply because some of yours
>>
>> $$ Excuse me - virtually ALL of mine.
>>
>> are living to 4 yrs of age doesn't mean
>> > they are kept in perfect conditions.
>>
>> $$ Perfect in your estimation and you're entitled to your opinion. But
>> I'm
>> entitled to mine as well and I've been keeping them for 45 years.
>>
>> 74*f is TOO COLD!
>> > You are just prolonging their chills.
>> > In the wild their water temp is usually around 80*f. Breeding is
>> > 82-83*, not 80*f, as you have stated.
>>
>> $$ I stated the temp I bred them at, and what worked for me.
>>
>> > Comparing a little jar,
>>
>> $$ These little jars hold 1/2 gallon of water, gravel and a plant.
>> They're
>> changed weekly. Do you actually believe that betta breeders have filtered
>> and heated 1 to 2 gallon tanks for each male they raise to sell? I've
>> been
>> to other breeders facilities. They all kept them in jars, bottles,
>> whatever
>> was glass and held water. No gravel and no plants. Today I'm sure they
>> have water run-through setups, not heated, filtered tanks for each fish.
>>
>> to an entire body of water is just silly.
>> > So if you can't get the facts about Bettas correct, don't bother
>> > replying to any Q's about them.
>>
>> ## Correct in YOUR OPINION. Many many people have bettas for years in
>> nothing more than a goldfish bowl. Maybe that's not 100% ideal, but
>> nothing
>> in life is.
>>
>> > I'll be glad to handle that for you.
>>
>> ## No need to.........
>> --
>> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>> $$ These little jars hold 1/2 gallon of water, gravel and a plant.

> I've seen these tiny jars on your "Aquarium" part of the web page
> youhave.
> I doubt these hold a half gallon of water. They appear to be those tiny
> "Ivy" bowls often used in crafts shops to hold potpouri, and in pet
> shops to display male bettas until purchasing.

## Wrong, look again. Check the one on the lower left-hand side which is a
close-up of these bowls. Those round bowls hold a little less than 1/2
gallon of water and 1/4 cup of fine gravel. The water is changed every 7
days.

> These are absolutley unacceptable as permanent housing.

## In your opinion. They build bubble nests, eat well, flare at each other,
beg for snacks and live up to 4 years. Seldom does one die sooner.

> They're hardly bigger than the males they hold.
> I wouldn't house a 2 month old juvie in something so small, let alone a
> fully grown male for the rest of it's sad life!

## When I win the lottery I'll buy more 2 gallon tanks with filters and
heaters for each one. As I get 1 gallon jars they're moved to larger
quarters.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Tynk

November 22nd 05, 07:53 PM

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >
> >> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> >> ## I assume the betta owners or those thinking about getting one (or
> >> >> more)
> >> >> would have a thermometer and use it. If someone keeps their house at
> >> >> 68
> >> >> to
> >> >> 70F then I would say that is too cool for a tropical betta or any
> >> >> tropical
> >> >> fish - they need a heater. I find the water in the tanks and bowls is
> >> >> always a little cooler than the temp of the room. Our house is on the
> >> >> warm
> >> >> side so even the platties don't have a heater. They too are thriving
> >> >> and
> >> >> reproducing.
> >> =================================================
> >> > Well, I simply won't bother to argue with anyone not willing to learn
> >> > the proper way to house Bettas.
> >>
> >> $$ You mean YOUR WAY to house bettas. When they live their full life
> >> span
> >> without sickness or disease then that way works also.
> >>
> >> > Simply because some of yours
> >>
> >> $$ Excuse me - virtually ALL of mine.
> >>
> >> are living to 4 yrs of age doesn't mean
> >> > they are kept in perfect conditions.
> >>
> >> $$ Perfect in your estimation and you're entitled to your opinion. But
> >> I'm
> >> entitled to mine as well and I've been keeping them for 45 years.
> >>
> >> 74*f is TOO COLD!
> >> > You are just prolonging their chills.
> >> > In the wild their water temp is usually around 80*f. Breeding is
> >> > 82-83*, not 80*f, as you have stated.
> >>
> >> $$ I stated the temp I bred them at, and what worked for me.
> >>
> >> > Comparing a little jar,
> >>
> >> $$ These little jars hold 1/2 gallon of water, gravel and a plant.
> >> They're
> >> changed weekly. Do you actually believe that betta breeders have filtered
> >> and heated 1 to 2 gallon tanks for each male they raise to sell? I've
> >> been
> >> to other breeders facilities. They all kept them in jars, bottles,
> >> whatever
> >> was glass and held water. No gravel and no plants. Today I'm sure they
> >> have water run-through setups, not heated, filtered tanks for each fish.
> >>
> >> to an entire body of water is just silly.
> >> > So if you can't get the facts about Bettas correct, don't bother
> >> > replying to any Q's about them.
> >>
> >> ## Correct in YOUR OPINION. Many many people have bettas for years in
> >> nothing more than a goldfish bowl. Maybe that's not 100% ideal, but
> >> nothing
> >> in life is.
> >>
> >> > I'll be glad to handle that for you.
> >>
> >> ## No need to.........
> >> --
> >> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> >> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> >> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> >> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> >> $$ These little jars hold 1/2 gallon of water, gravel and a plant.
>
> > I've seen these tiny jars on your "Aquarium" part of the web page
> > youhave.
> > I doubt these hold a half gallon of water. They appear to be those tiny
> > "Ivy" bowls often used in crafts shops to hold potpouri, and in pet
> > shops to display male bettas until purchasing.
>
> ## Wrong, look again. Check the one on the lower left-hand side which is a
> close-up of these bowls. Those round bowls hold a little less than 1/2
> gallon of water and 1/4 cup of fine gravel. The water is changed every 7
> days.
>
> > These are absolutley unacceptable as permanent housing.
>
> ## In your opinion. They build bubble nests, eat well, flare at each other,
> beg for snacks and live up to 4 years. Seldom does one die sooner.
>
> > They're hardly bigger than the males they hold.
> > I wouldn't house a 2 month old juvie in something so small, let alone a
> > fully grown male for the rest of it's sad life!
>
> ## When I win the lottery I'll buy more 2 gallon tanks with filters and
> heaters for each one. As I get 1 gallon jars they're moved to larger
> quarters.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> ## Wrong, look again. Check the one on the lower left-hand side which is a
> close-up of these bowls. Those round bowls hold a little less than 1/2
> gallon of water and 1/4 cup of fine gravel. The water is changed every 7
> days.
>
Oh you are so silly that this is getting to be a joke,
You do realize that in the picture of them lined up in the TINY bowls
in your window that you have other things all around for size
comparison.
First you say they're half gallon bowls, now you say a little less than
a 1/2 a gallon.
Have you ever actually measured how much water those poor fish actually
have after you add the gravel?
Also, something so small should be changed 2 X's weekly if you won't
upgrade them to larger quarters.
It's a gallon that should be changed weekly.
That's a fact, not my opinion.