Cycling a 29g tank

[Rodney M]

I haven't had an aquarium since I was a kid but for the past 6 months
I have been reading the newsgroups and various books on tropical fish
and got the itch to get a tank going again. There was a 29 gallon
tank with stand at the LFS by my house that I really liked. My wife
surprised me on our 2 year anniversary and bought it for me. After
doing some research, I bought the following for it:

* Marineland Emperor 280 HOB filter with bio-wheel
* Marineland Visi-Therm Stealth 100 submersible heater
* Estes' Ultra Reef black marine sand (says safe for fresh or salt
water)
* Couple of fake pieces of wood and plants

Here is a picture of my tank the night I filled it up with water for
the first time (the picture was taken before I setup the Emperor
filter):

http://www.debaser.net/v1.5/images/fish_tank.jpg

I conditioned the water with Jungle Water Safe Plus and let the tank
run for a couple of days. I tested my water with those Jungle 5 in 1
quick dip test strips and it showed the following: pH at 7.8,
alkalinity (KH) at 180ppm and hardness (GH) at 150ppm. I set the
heater to 76 and had it mounted on a 45 degree angle under the filter
near the bottom of the tank. I was having problems with the
temperature of the water moving up and down 1-2 degrees so I mounted
the heater vertically under the filter to the left a little and the
temperature stays right at 76 degrees now.

I decided I ultimately wanted to have a species tank with tiger barbs
so I picked up 3 green tiger barbs to cycle the tank. The fish were
loving the tank and having a good time. There was one that was
definately leader of the pack and would chase the other two around. I
should have been keeping a better eye on them because after about two
weeks, two of the barbs had there fins nipped really bad. One was so
bad that it's pelvic fins were just these white puffs and his caudal
fin was in rough shape too. The other one had his caudal fin nipped
but was still in ok shape. During these two weeks, I had been
checking my ammonia and nothing seemed to be showing up yet. My water
had a cloudy look to it which I believe was from the backteria
starting to grow. In fearing for my fish, I decided to get 3 albino
tiger barbs to add to the tank, thinking the leader of the pack would
have other fish to distract him. Unfortunately, it was too late and
the one green tiger barb with the bad pelvic fins died soon after. A
couple of days later, the other green tiger barb died. I decided I
didn't want my 3 albino's to suffer the same fate so I took out the
last green tiger barb out of the 29g tank.

Shortly after adding the 3 albino's, I started seeing my ammonia level
come up to about .25ppm. Around this same time, one of my albino's
got some kind of eye infection. His right eye was really cloudy and
enlarged. A couple of days later, he died. After I removed him from
the tank, I did my first water change, which was around 20%. This was
about 3 weeks after I initially setup the tank. At the same time, I
also removed quite a bit of the sand to get it down to about an inch
deep since I added too much initially. This probably wasn't a good
thing to do as I'm sure it set back my cycling.

I bought a Python to do my water changes and was doing a 20% water
changes every 3 days after the first water change. The first couple
water changes, I was adding the water directly to the tank and then
putting in a capful of AquaPlus to remove the chlorine. I felt like I
was wasting a ton of water with the Python and didn't really like the
idea of adding untreated tap water directly to the tank so I bought a
cheap syphon and a 5 gallon bucket to do water changes. I actually
like this alot better than the Python.

It's been 6 weeks since I initially setup my tank and it is only
showing somewhere between .25 and .50ppm of ammonia and no signs of
nitrite. My other levels are still the same (pH 7.8, KH 180ppm and GH
at 150ppm). The two remaining albino's seems to be doing fine, tho
one does get picked on by the other but I've been keeping an eye on
his fins and they are fine. They actually like it when I do water
changes and one of them swims right up to the hose as the water comes
into the tank. My water still has a faint cloudy look to it.

Should I continuing doing 20% water changes every 3 days until my tank
is cycled? I was talking to a guy who seemed knowledgeable at the LFS
tonight and he recommended I put some Hagen Cycle in my tank to help
speed up the cycling process and that I cut back on water changes to
once a week. What do you guys think? Also, should I replace the
filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
delay my tank cycling even longer. Also, the bio-wheel still seems to
be moving pretty fast, no matter which way I turn the spray bar. It
doesn't seem to be too discolored yet either. Speaking of spray bar,
what position do you guys who have one of these filters put the spray
bar and does it really matter?

Sorry for the long winded post. I just wanted to make sure I included
enough info about what has been going on with my tank for the past 6
weeks. Any input would be appreciate. Thanks.

Rodney

[slylittlei]

Rodney M muttered darkly:
> I haven't had an aquarium since I was a kid but for the past 6 months
> I have been reading the newsgroups and various books on tropical fish
> and got the itch to get a tank going again. There was a 29 gallon
> tank with stand at the LFS by my house that I really liked. My wife
> surprised me on our 2 year anniversary and bought it for me. After
> doing some research, I bought the following for it:
>
> * Marineland Emperor 280 HOB filter with bio-wheel
> * Marineland Visi-Therm Stealth 100 submersible heater
> * Estes' Ultra Reef black marine sand (says safe for fresh or salt
> water)
> * Couple of fake pieces of wood and plants
>
> Here is a picture of my tank the night I filled it up with water for
> the first time (the picture was taken before I setup the Emperor
> filter):
>
> http://www.debaser.net/v1.5/images/fish_tank.jpg
>
> I conditioned the water with Jungle Water Safe Plus and let the tank
> run for a couple of days. I tested my water with those Jungle 5 in 1
> quick dip test strips and it showed the following: pH at 7.8,
> alkalinity (KH) at 180ppm and hardness (GH) at 150ppm. I set the
> heater to 76 and had it mounted on a 45 degree angle under the filter
> near the bottom of the tank. I was having problems with the
> temperature of the water moving up and down 1-2 degrees so I mounted
> the heater vertically under the filter to the left a little and the
> temperature stays right at 76 degrees now.
>
> I decided I ultimately wanted to have a species tank with tiger barbs
> so I picked up 3 green tiger barbs to cycle the tank. The fish were
> loving the tank and having a good time. There was one that was
> definately leader of the pack and would chase the other two around. I
> should have been keeping a better eye on them because after about two
> weeks, two of the barbs had there fins nipped really bad. One was so
> bad that it's pelvic fins were just these white puffs and his caudal
> fin was in rough shape too. The other one had his caudal fin nipped
> but was still in ok shape. During these two weeks, I had been
> checking my ammonia and nothing seemed to be showing up yet. My water
> had a cloudy look to it which I believe was from the backteria
> starting to grow. In fearing for my fish, I decided to get 3 albino
> tiger barbs to add to the tank, thinking the leader of the pack would
> have other fish to distract him. Unfortunately, it was too late and
> the one green tiger barb with the bad pelvic fins died soon after. A
> couple of days later, the other green tiger barb died. I decided I
> didn't want my 3 albino's to suffer the same fate so I took out the
> last green tiger barb out of the 29g tank.
>
> Shortly after adding the 3 albino's, I started seeing my ammonia level
> come up to about .25ppm. Around this same time, one of my albino's
> got some kind of eye infection. His right eye was really cloudy and
> enlarged. A couple of days later, he died. After I removed him from
> the tank, I did my first water change, which was around 20%. This was
> about 3 weeks after I initially setup the tank. At the same time, I
> also removed quite a bit of the sand to get it down to about an inch
> deep since I added too much initially. This probably wasn't a good
> thing to do as I'm sure it set back my cycling.
>
> I bought a Python to do my water changes and was doing a 20% water
> changes every 3 days after the first water change. The first couple
> water changes, I was adding the water directly to the tank and then
> putting in a capful of AquaPlus to remove the chlorine. I felt like I
> was wasting a ton of water with the Python and didn't really like the
> idea of adding untreated tap water directly to the tank so I bought a
> cheap syphon and a 5 gallon bucket to do water changes. I actually
> like this alot better than the Python.
>
> It's been 6 weeks since I initially setup my tank and it is only
> showing somewhere between .25 and .50ppm of ammonia and no signs of
> nitrite. My other levels are still the same (pH 7.8, KH 180ppm and GH
> at 150ppm). The two remaining albino's seems to be doing fine, tho
> one does get picked on by the other but I've been keeping an eye on
> his fins and they are fine. They actually like it when I do water
> changes and one of them swims right up to the hose as the water comes
> into the tank. My water still has a faint cloudy look to it.
>
> Should I continuing doing 20% water changes every 3 days until my tank
> is cycled? I was talking to a guy who seemed knowledgeable at the LFS
> tonight and he recommended I put some Hagen Cycle in my tank to help
> speed up the cycling process and that I cut back on water changes to
> once a week. What do you guys think? Also, should I replace the
> filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
> every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
> delay my tank cycling even longer. Also, the bio-wheel still seems to
> be moving pretty fast, no matter which way I turn the spray bar. It
> doesn't seem to be too discolored yet either. Speaking of spray bar,
> what position do you guys who have one of these filters put the spray
> bar and does it really matter?
>
> Sorry for the long winded post. I just wanted to make sure I included
> enough info about what has been going on with my tank for the past 6
> weeks. Any input would be appreciate. Thanks.
>
> Rodney

I'm sure you'll get a lot of replies to this one Rodney, but here's my two
penn'orth:
IMHO you've made the common & understandable error of being a bit too keen
to get fish in there - I'd have waited for at least a couple of weeks before
introducing any fish at all, to give the tank a chance to cycle.
If at all possible it's best to use some water / gravel / filter media from
an already established tank when setting up yours (I'm sure others will
expand on this theme).
You obviously like Tiger barbs, but introducing such a small number was
probably not a great idea - they really need to be in a group of at least 6,
otherwise their natural nippy tendencies get concentrated on the weakest
link, as you saw - in a larger group, this behaviour gets "diluted".
As to the water changes, and the gravel removal, I'd agree that you've
delayed the proper cycling of the tank - doing 20% changes every 3 days
it'll never get a chance to settle down! Also, don't even think about
replacing your filter media yet...
Best of luck, & patience, patience! ;-)

[Rodney M]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:25:46 GMT, "slylittlei"
> wrote:

>Rodney M muttered darkly:
>> I haven't had an aquarium since I was a kid but for the past 6 months
>> I have been reading the newsgroups and various books on tropical fish
>> and got the itch to get a tank going again. There was a 29 gallon
>> tank with stand at the LFS by my house that I really liked. My wife
>> surprised me on our 2 year anniversary and bought it for me. After
>> doing some research, I bought the following for it:
>>
>> * Marineland Emperor 280 HOB filter with bio-wheel
>> * Marineland Visi-Therm Stealth 100 submersible heater
>> * Estes' Ultra Reef black marine sand (says safe for fresh or salt
>> water)
>> * Couple of fake pieces of wood and plants
>>
>> Here is a picture of my tank the night I filled it up with water for
>> the first time (the picture was taken before I setup the Emperor
>> filter):
>>
>> http://www.debaser.net/v1.5/images/fish_tank.jpg
>>
>> I conditioned the water with Jungle Water Safe Plus and let the tank
>> run for a couple of days. I tested my water with those Jungle 5 in 1
>> quick dip test strips and it showed the following: pH at 7.8,
>> alkalinity (KH) at 180ppm and hardness (GH) at 150ppm. I set the
>> heater to 76 and had it mounted on a 45 degree angle under the filter
>> near the bottom of the tank. I was having problems with the
>> temperature of the water moving up and down 1-2 degrees so I mounted
>> the heater vertically under the filter to the left a little and the
>> temperature stays right at 76 degrees now.
>>
>> I decided I ultimately wanted to have a species tank with tiger barbs
>> so I picked up 3 green tiger barbs to cycle the tank. The fish were
>> loving the tank and having a good time. There was one that was
>> definately leader of the pack and would chase the other two around. I
>> should have been keeping a better eye on them because after about two
>> weeks, two of the barbs had there fins nipped really bad. One was so
>> bad that it's pelvic fins were just these white puffs and his caudal
>> fin was in rough shape too. The other one had his caudal fin nipped
>> but was still in ok shape. During these two weeks, I had been
>> checking my ammonia and nothing seemed to be showing up yet. My water
>> had a cloudy look to it which I believe was from the backteria
>> starting to grow. In fearing for my fish, I decided to get 3 albino
>> tiger barbs to add to the tank, thinking the leader of the pack would
>> have other fish to distract him. Unfortunately, it was too late and
>> the one green tiger barb with the bad pelvic fins died soon after. A
>> couple of days later, the other green tiger barb died. I decided I
>> didn't want my 3 albino's to suffer the same fate so I took out the
>> last green tiger barb out of the 29g tank.
>>
>> Shortly after adding the 3 albino's, I started seeing my ammonia level
>> come up to about .25ppm. Around this same time, one of my albino's
>> got some kind of eye infection. His right eye was really cloudy and
>> enlarged. A couple of days later, he died. After I removed him from
>> the tank, I did my first water change, which was around 20%. This was
>> about 3 weeks after I initially setup the tank. At the same time, I
>> also removed quite a bit of the sand to get it down to about an inch
>> deep since I added too much initially. This probably wasn't a good
>> thing to do as I'm sure it set back my cycling.
>>
>> I bought a Python to do my water changes and was doing a 20% water
>> changes every 3 days after the first water change. The first couple
>> water changes, I was adding the water directly to the tank and then
>> putting in a capful of AquaPlus to remove the chlorine. I felt like I
>> was wasting a ton of water with the Python and didn't really like the
>> idea of adding untreated tap water directly to the tank so I bought a
>> cheap syphon and a 5 gallon bucket to do water changes. I actually
>> like this alot better than the Python.
>>
>> It's been 6 weeks since I initially setup my tank and it is only
>> showing somewhere between .25 and .50ppm of ammonia and no signs of
>> nitrite. My other levels are still the same (pH 7.8, KH 180ppm and GH
>> at 150ppm). The two remaining albino's seems to be doing fine, tho
>> one does get picked on by the other but I've been keeping an eye on
>> his fins and they are fine. They actually like it when I do water
>> changes and one of them swims right up to the hose as the water comes
>> into the tank. My water still has a faint cloudy look to it.
>>
>> Should I continuing doing 20% water changes every 3 days until my tank
>> is cycled? I was talking to a guy who seemed knowledgeable at the LFS
>> tonight and he recommended I put some Hagen Cycle in my tank to help
>> speed up the cycling process and that I cut back on water changes to
>> once a week. What do you guys think? Also, should I replace the
>> filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
>> every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
>> delay my tank cycling even longer. Also, the bio-wheel still seems to
>> be moving pretty fast, no matter which way I turn the spray bar. It
>> doesn't seem to be too discolored yet either. Speaking of spray bar,
>> what position do you guys who have one of these filters put the spray
>> bar and does it really matter?
>>
>> Sorry for the long winded post. I just wanted to make sure I included
>> enough info about what has been going on with my tank for the past 6
>> weeks. Any input would be appreciate. Thanks.
>>
>> Rodney
>
>I'm sure you'll get a lot of replies to this one Rodney, but here's my two
>penn'orth:
>IMHO you've made the common & understandable error of being a bit too keen
>to get fish in there - I'd have waited for at least a couple of weeks before
>introducing any fish at all, to give the tank a chance to cycle.

Everything that I've read says to start with a couple of hardy fish to
cycle your tank. How is the tank going to cycle with no fish (use
something like Cycle)?

>If at all possible it's best to use some water / gravel / filter media from
>an already established tank when setting up yours (I'm sure others will
>expand on this theme).

Unfortunately this was something I couldn't do since I don't have any
friends with tanks and I'm not sure the LFS would be willing to give
me any fitler media or gravel from one of their tanks, tho I never did
ask them.

>You obviously like Tiger barbs, but introducing such a small number was
>probably not a great idea - they really need to be in a group of at least 6,
>otherwise their natural nippy tendencies get concentrated on the weakest
>link, as you saw - in a larger group, this behaviour gets "diluted".

Your right, I found this out the hard way. :(

>As to the water changes, and the gravel removal, I'd agree that you've
>delayed the proper cycling of the tank - doing 20% changes every 3 days
>it'll never get a chance to settle down! Also, don't even think about
>replacing your filter media yet...

So how often should I be doing water changes during the cycling
period, if at all? Do I wait for the ammonia levels to get high
before changing the water? Websites like
http://www.firsttankguide.net/cycle.php say to do a 10%-15% water
change every couple of days during the cycling process.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml says during the
cycling process, don't have many fish, feed sparingly and do lots of
water changes.

>Best of luck, & patience, patience! ;-)

Thanks for the info and I'll continue to be patient. Take care.

Rodney

[Koi-lo]

"Rodney M" > wrote in message
...
>
> I haven't had an aquarium since I was a kid but for the past 6 months
> I have been reading the newsgroups and various books on tropical fish
> and got the itch to get a tank going again. There was a 29 gallon
> tank with stand at the LFS by my house that I really liked. My wife
> surprised me on our 2 year anniversary and bought it for me. After
> doing some research, I bought the following for it:

=====================brevity snip!

Sometimes a tank takes awhile to "cycle." Be patient. I have a 10g with 2
small goldfish that is taking forever to cycle even thought the filter has 2
"used and seeded" sponges in it. Other tanks with seeded sponges either
never show an ammonia surge, or show a very reading for a few days. Go
figure! :-)

As for the tiger barbs. You couldn't pay me to have this fish in any of my
tanks. You really need to purchase about 8 to 10 of them to keep them from
nipping each other to death. And they do get large if well fed and cared
for. If you really like them buy at least 10 and add them to your tank all
at the same time (after it cycles). Hope for the best. Watch for torn fins
and infection anyway........ good luck!
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Steve]

Rodney M wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:25:46 GMT, "slylittlei"
> > wrote:
>
>
> So how often should I be doing water changes during the cycling
> period, if at all? Do I wait for the ammonia levels to get high
> before changing the water? Websites like
> http://www.firsttankguide.net/cycle.php say to do a 10%-15% water
> change every couple of days during the cycling process.
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml says during the
> cycling process, don't have many fish, feed sparingly and do lots of
> water changes.
>
>
>>Best of luck, & patience, patience! ;-)
>
>
> Thanks for the info and I'll continue to be patient. Take care.
>
> Rodney

I had cycling problems many years ago in setting up my 90 gallon
aquarium. I did not use test kits (no internet to recomend them) and
wasn't really aware of the cycling process, although the Hagen filter
literature described the nitrogen (handling) cycle. I went through green
and cloudy water. I also lost a couple of fish apparently due to
disease, but almost certainly from cycling stress.

I'll give my answer to your question, for what it's worth. By all means
do regular, even daily, partial water changes during the cycle if you
have fish and the ammonia or nitrite are approaching stressful/ harmful
levels. The water changes may help you keep conditions tolerable for the
fish, and the cycle should complete anyway.

Once my big aquarium settled down it became incredibly stable and
healthy. Good luck with yours :) !

Steve

[Tynk]

Rodney M wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:25:46 GMT, "slylittlei"
> > wrote:
>
> >Rodney M muttered darkly:
> >> I haven't had an aquarium since I was a kid but for the past 6 months
> >> I have been reading the newsgroups and various books on tropical fish
> >> and got the itch to get a tank going again. There was a 29 gallon
> >> tank with stand at the LFS by my house that I really liked. My wife
> >> surprised me on our 2 year anniversary and bought it for me. After
> >> doing some research, I bought the following for it:
> >>
> >> * Marineland Emperor 280 HOB filter with bio-wheel
> >> * Marineland Visi-Therm Stealth 100 submersible heater
> >> * Estes' Ultra Reef black marine sand (says safe for fresh or salt
> >> water)
> >> * Couple of fake pieces of wood and plants
> >>
> >> Here is a picture of my tank the night I filled it up with water for
> >> the first time (the picture was taken before I setup the Emperor
> >> filter):
> >>
> >> http://www.debaser.net/v1.5/images/fish_tank.jpg
> >>
> >> I conditioned the water with Jungle Water Safe Plus and let the tank
> >> run for a couple of days. I tested my water with those Jungle 5 in 1
> >> quick dip test strips and it showed the following: pH at 7.8,
> >> alkalinity (KH) at 180ppm and hardness (GH) at 150ppm. I set the
> >> heater to 76 and had it mounted on a 45 degree angle under the filter
> >> near the bottom of the tank. I was having problems with the
> >> temperature of the water moving up and down 1-2 degrees so I mounted
> >> the heater vertically under the filter to the left a little and the
> >> temperature stays right at 76 degrees now.
> >>
> >> I decided I ultimately wanted to have a species tank with tiger barbs
> >> so I picked up 3 green tiger barbs to cycle the tank. The fish were
> >> loving the tank and having a good time. There was one that was
> >> definately leader of the pack and would chase the other two around. I
> >> should have been keeping a better eye on them because after about two
> >> weeks, two of the barbs had there fins nipped really bad. One was so
> >> bad that it's pelvic fins were just these white puffs and his caudal
> >> fin was in rough shape too. The other one had his caudal fin nipped
> >> but was still in ok shape. During these two weeks, I had been
> >> checking my ammonia and nothing seemed to be showing up yet. My water
> >> had a cloudy look to it which I believe was from the backteria
> >> starting to grow. In fearing for my fish, I decided to get 3 albino
> >> tiger barbs to add to the tank, thinking the leader of the pack would
> >> have other fish to distract him. Unfortunately, it was too late and
> >> the one green tiger barb with the bad pelvic fins died soon after. A
> >> couple of days later, the other green tiger barb died. I decided I
> >> didn't want my 3 albino's to suffer the same fate so I took out the
> >> last green tiger barb out of the 29g tank.
> >>
> >> Shortly after adding the 3 albino's, I started seeing my ammonia level
> >> come up to about .25ppm. Around this same time, one of my albino's
> >> got some kind of eye infection. His right eye was really cloudy and
> >> enlarged. A couple of days later, he died. After I removed him from
> >> the tank, I did my first water change, which was around 20%. This was
> >> about 3 weeks after I initially setup the tank. At the same time, I
> >> also removed quite a bit of the sand to get it down to about an inch
> >> deep since I added too much initially. This probably wasn't a good
> >> thing to do as I'm sure it set back my cycling.
> >>
> >> I bought a Python to do my water changes and was doing a 20% water
> >> changes every 3 days after the first water change. The first couple
> >> water changes, I was adding the water directly to the tank and then
> >> putting in a capful of AquaPlus to remove the chlorine. I felt like I
> >> was wasting a ton of water with the Python and didn't really like the
> >> idea of adding untreated tap water directly to the tank so I bought a
> >> cheap syphon and a 5 gallon bucket to do water changes. I actually
> >> like this alot better than the Python.
> >>
> >> It's been 6 weeks since I initially setup my tank and it is only
> >> showing somewhere between .25 and .50ppm of ammonia and no signs of
> >> nitrite. My other levels are still the same (pH 7.8, KH 180ppm and GH
> >> at 150ppm). The two remaining albino's seems to be doing fine, tho
> >> one does get picked on by the other but I've been keeping an eye on
> >> his fins and they are fine. They actually like it when I do water
> >> changes and one of them swims right up to the hose as the water comes
> >> into the tank. My water still has a faint cloudy look to it.
> >>
> >> Should I continuing doing 20% water changes every 3 days until my tank
> >> is cycled? I was talking to a guy who seemed knowledgeable at the LFS
> >> tonight and he recommended I put some Hagen Cycle in my tank to help
> >> speed up the cycling process and that I cut back on water changes to
> >> once a week. What do you guys think? Also, should I replace the
> >> filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
> >> every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
> >> delay my tank cycling even longer. Also, the bio-wheel still seems to
> >> be moving pretty fast, no matter which way I turn the spray bar. It
> >> doesn't seem to be too discolored yet either. Speaking of spray bar,
> >> what position do you guys who have one of these filters put the spray
> >> bar and does it really matter?
> >>
> >> Sorry for the long winded post. I just wanted to make sure I included
> >> enough info about what has been going on with my tank for the past 6
> >> weeks. Any input would be appreciate. Thanks.
> >>
> >> Rodney
> >
> >I'm sure you'll get a lot of replies to this one Rodney, but here's my two
> >penn'orth:
> >IMHO you've made the common & understandable error of being a bit too keen
> >to get fish in there - I'd have waited for at least a couple of weeks before
> >introducing any fish at all, to give the tank a chance to cycle.
>
> Everything that I've read says to start with a couple of hardy fish to
> cycle your tank. How is the tank going to cycle with no fish (use
> something like Cycle)?
>
> >If at all possible it's best to use some water / gravel / filter media from
> >an already established tank when setting up yours (I'm sure others will
> >expand on this theme).
>
> Unfortunately this was something I couldn't do since I don't have any
> friends with tanks and I'm not sure the LFS would be willing to give
> me any fitler media or gravel from one of their tanks, tho I never did
> ask them.
>
> >You obviously like Tiger barbs, but introducing such a small number was
> >probably not a great idea - they really need to be in a group of at least 6,
> >otherwise their natural nippy tendencies get concentrated on the weakest
> >link, as you saw - in a larger group, this behaviour gets "diluted".
>
> Your right, I found this out the hard way. :(
>
> >As to the water changes, and the gravel removal, I'd agree that you've
> >delayed the proper cycling of the tank - doing 20% changes every 3 days
> >it'll never get a chance to settle down! Also, don't even think about
> >replacing your filter media yet...
>
> So how often should I be doing water changes during the cycling
> period, if at all? Do I wait for the ammonia levels to get high
> before changing the water? Websites like
> http://www.firsttankguide.net/cycle.php say to do a 10%-15% water
> change every couple of days during the cycling process.
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml says during the
> cycling process, don't have many fish, feed sparingly and do lots of
> water changes.
>
> >Best of luck, & patience, patience! ;-)
>
> Thanks for the info and I'll continue to be patient. Take care.
>
> Rodney


> Everything that I've read says to start with a couple of hardy fish to
> cycle your tank. How is the tank going to cycle with no fish (use
> something like Cycle)?
The procuct Cycle is just going to waste your money, and not cycle your
tank. It's not even going to help it get started. One of those bogus
produtcs out there.
You can, however, use a product called Bio Spira to cycle a tank in 24
hours.
It's the only one with the correct bacteria in it. It also needs to be
kept inthe frige, so you do need to ask is they carry it. (It's not
always obvious if they have the frige in the backroom).
You can also fishless cycle using unscented, household ammonia (there's
a recipe and directions if you need it).
However, you can't do this since you already have the fish.
Call around for the BioSpira though. I believe you'll be be fine with
the 1 oz pack, but if they only have the 3oz, no problem. You can't use
too much, only too little.
As for the water changes during the cycling period..of course you still
do them. However, go to a once a week, 20% change. Now if the ammonia
levels are in a danger area, go to twice weekly, same %.
I'd leave to the gravel vacuuming until a couple weeks have passed.
The ammonia level would have increased anyway in your tank. Besides
being *in* the cycling period already, you added the Cories....putting
more strain on the nitrifying bacteria that were trying to grow numbers
to handle the bio load of the existing fish load..then you added the
Cories, bio load increased, not enough bacteria in the first place,
ammonia levels rise, fish stress and die easily.
This is what happens when cycling with fish, and adding more too soon.
Too late to say don't do that, but at least you are here asking how to
do things. = )
All you can do now is keep up with doing water changed during the
cycling period with the fish you already have.
The nirtrifying bacteria do not float in the water, they stick to all
the surfaces and gravel in the tank, so doing water changes isn't
going to remove them during the cycling period.
This is a common myth.... that if you remove any water during the
cycling, you're taking out too many of the bacteria colony. Not so.
They're the gooey stuff that you feel on the surfaces of everything in
the tank. That slimey stuff are the bacteria. During the cycling period
I only clean off the front glass. After the cycling period is over, I
also clean the rest of the tank walls during a normal water change.
Now, If you can find BioSpira, NO problem!
Just do a water change, add BioSpira, no problem. Your tank's good to
go in 24 hours.
However, that is the only product you can do that with.
The other products that do not work (wrong bacteria) StressZyme,
BioZyme, Cycle, and Kent has one out there too..so does Seachem.
If you have a PetLand near you, they seem to carry BioSpira the most.

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> http://www.debaser.net/v1.5/images/fish_tank.jpg
[...]

Sorry, that photo shows IMHO no interior arrangement for
tiger barbs. A 29 gallon tank is IMHO the (lowest) limit to
keep tiger barbs at all. So you are limited to keep a small
group tiger barbs (5-7), only. In smaller groups hunting or
biting might be a problem.

They need space to swimm around, more interior or plants to
hide behind while playing hide an seek all day long.

The fish keeper's primary directive is to keep the fish
healthy.

Cyling a tank while keeping _fish_ (-> worst case) means:
1: Daily NO2 tests
2: If NO2 == yes -> change water, 60-80%, daily, as long as
NO2 is present. The swollen eye signals bad water.

NO2 or bacteria that cloud water means stress, and stress
weakens the immune system, so please remember to the fish
keeper's primary derective.. ;-)

Good luck!

cu
Marco

[NetMax]

"Rodney M" > wrote in message
...
>
> I haven't had an aquarium since I was a kid but for the past 6 months
> I have been reading the newsgroups and various books on tropical fish
> and got the itch to get a tank going again. There was a 29 gallon
> tank with stand at the LFS by my house that I really liked. My wife
> surprised me on our 2 year anniversary and bought it for me. After
> doing some research, I bought the following for it:

Welcome back to the hobby :o).

> * Marineland Emperor 280 HOB filter with bio-wheel
> * Marineland Visi-Therm Stealth 100 submersible heater
> * Estes' Ultra Reef black marine sand (says safe for fresh or salt
> water)
> * Couple of fake pieces of wood and plants

Nothing too problematic in there. The Emp's filters are proprietary ($),
but the bio-wheel is a nice addition to the filtering process. The solid
colour of the gravel has some cosmetic issues, which you will have to decide
if they matter or not (solid colours show detritus more quickly).

> Here is a picture of my tank the night I filled it up with water for
> the first time (the picture was taken before I setup the Emperor
> filter):
>
> http://www.debaser.net/v1.5/images/fish_tank.jpg

Very nice.

> I conditioned the water with Jungle Water Safe Plus and let the tank
> run for a couple of days. I tested my water with those Jungle 5 in 1
> quick dip test strips and it showed the following: pH at 7.8,
> alkalinity (KH) at 180ppm and hardness (GH) at 150ppm. I set the
> heater to 76 and had it mounted on a 45 degree angle under the filter
> near the bottom of the tank. I was having problems with the
> temperature of the water moving up and down 1-2 degrees so I mounted
> the heater vertically under the filter to the left a little and the
> temperature stays right at 76 degrees now.

ok, 76F, 7.8pH, 10dkH, 8dgH, left to outgass for a couple of days, sounds
good!!

> I decided I ultimately wanted to have a species tank with tiger barbs
> so I picked up 3 green tiger barbs to cycle the tank. The fish were
> loving the tank and having a good time. There was one that was
> definately leader of the pack and would chase the other two around. I
> should have been keeping a better eye on them because after about two
> weeks, two of the barbs had there fins nipped really bad. One was so
> bad that it's pelvic fins were just these white puffs and his caudal
> fin was in rough shape too. The other one had his caudal fin nipped
> but was still in ok shape. During these two weeks, I had been
> checking my ammonia and nothing seemed to be showing up yet. My water
> had a cloudy look to it which I believe was from the backteria
> starting to grow. In fearing for my fish, I decided to get 3 albino
> tiger barbs to add to the tank, thinking the leader of the pack would
> have other fish to distract him. Unfortunately, it was too late and
> the one green tiger barb with the bad pelvic fins died soon after. A
> couple of days later, the other green tiger barb died. I decided I
> didn't want my 3 albino's to suffer the same fate so I took out the
> last green tiger barb out of the 29g tank.
>
> Shortly after adding the 3 albino's, I started seeing my ammonia level
> come up to about .25ppm. Around this same time, one of my albino's
> got some kind of eye infection. His right eye was really cloudy and
> enlarged. A couple of days later, he died. After I removed him from
> the tank, I did my first water change, which was around 20%. This was
> about 3 weeks after I initially setup the tank. At the same time, I
> also removed quite a bit of the sand to get it down to about an inch
> deep since I added too much initially. This probably wasn't a good
> thing to do as I'm sure it set back my cycling.

Probably not too badly. Your problem is cycling and settling in.

> I bought a Python to do my water changes and was doing a 20% water
> changes every 3 days after the first water change. The first couple
> water changes, I was adding the water directly to the tank and then
> putting in a capful of AquaPlus to remove the chlorine. I felt like I
> was wasting a ton of water with the Python and didn't really like the
> idea of adding untreated tap water directly to the tank so I bought a
> cheap syphon and a 5 gallon bucket to do water changes. I actually
> like this alot better than the Python.

Having used both, there is definitely pros/cons to either system.

> It's been 6 weeks since I initially setup my tank and it is only
> showing somewhere between .25 and .50ppm of ammonia and no signs of
> nitrite. My other levels are still the same (pH 7.8, KH 180ppm and GH
> at 150ppm). The two remaining albino's seems to be doing fine, tho
> one does get picked on by the other but I've been keeping an eye on
> his fins and they are fine. They actually like it when I do water
> changes and one of them swims right up to the hose as the water comes
> into the tank. My water still has a faint cloudy look to it.

Until your ammonia/nitrite is zero, I wouldn't worry about the cloudiness.
You frequent water changes are keeping the ammonia levels low (good), and I
really don't think will affect the cycling. I think the presence of ammonia
causes the bacteria to reproduce, not the concentration. There are actually
situations when growth is negatively affected by concentrations being too
high.

> Should I continuing doing 20% water changes every 3 days until my tank
> is cycled? I was talking to a guy who seemed knowledgeable at the LFS
> tonight and he recommended I put some Hagen Cycle in my tank to help
> speed up the cycling process and that I cut back on water changes to
> once a week. What do you guys think?

Yes (on water changes) and the Hagen Cycle is up to you. It is better than
nothing, but a bit slow (in my experience, and assuming they haven't changed
the formula in the last 1-1/2 years). Your basic problem is that the tank
is cycling very slowly, which drags it out, but if you don't mind then the
fish won't either. The water changes keeps everything to safer low
concentrations (imho).

Also, should I replace the
> filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
> every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
> delay my tank cycling even longer.

As long as water travels through the filter, I would not mess with it, other
than to give it a quick rinse in tank water in a pail.

> Also, the bio-wheel still seems to
> be moving pretty fast, no matter which way I turn the spray bar. It
> doesn't seem to be too discolored yet either. Speaking of spray bar,
> what position do you guys who have one of these filters put the spray
> bar and does it really matter?

Spray bar orientation is very application specific, either to keep the
surface clear of the protein layer which can accumulate, or to direct the
water in a circulation pattern to keep the temperature uniform, or to
provide or isolate fish which like/dislike water turbulence.

> Sorry for the long winded post. I just wanted to make sure I included
> enough info about what has been going on with my tank for the past 6
> weeks. Any input would be appreciate. Thanks.

Doesn't sound like you are doing too too badly, considering the trouble
brand new tanks can cause. Some of your barb problems might have been
outside of your control (weak stock) and partially to tank size. I've run
Tiger barb species tanks (and they were great), but I'd used a 60g tank. A
30g might be manageable with enough hiding spots, dither, and starting with
about 6-8 small Tigers. They are not an easy fish to manage sometimes.
--
www.NetMax.tk


> Rodney

[Elaine T]

slylittlei wrote:

> I'm sure you'll get a lot of replies to this one Rodney, but here's my two
> penn'orth:
> IMHO you've made the common & understandable error of being a bit too keen
> to get fish in there - I'd have waited for at least a couple of weeks before
> introducing any fish at all, to give the tank a chance to cycle.
> If at all possible it's best to use some water / gravel / filter media from
> an already established tank when setting up yours (I'm sure others will
> expand on this theme).

Not adding fish to a tank for a couple of weeks is a common myth. Tanks
without a source of ammonia (fish) and a source of nitrifying bacteria
(often the fishes slimecoat) do not cycle. Seeding from an established
tank works great, but any bacteria added on gravel/filter media without
an ammonia source will die in a matter of hours to days. You can try to
cycle fishless, but judging by what I've read here, it's not as reliable
as one would hope.

It is good to set up a new tank for a day or two before adding fish to
check for leaks, make sure the filter works right, and stabilize the
temperature. Once you are sure the equipment works, add any bacteria
(from another tank or purchased) and fish at the same time.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:06:37 -0500, NetMax wrote:

> Also, should I replace the
>> filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
>> every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
>> delay my tank cycling even longer.
>
> As long as water travels through the filter, I would not mess with it,
> other than to give it a quick rinse in tank water in a pail.

But if you've got carbon in there, take it out and toss it. It really
isn't needed and will do more ham than good if left in too long.

[NetMax]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:06:37 -0500, NetMax wrote:
>
>> Also, should I replace the
>>> filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
>>> every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
>>> delay my tank cycling even longer.
>>
>> As long as water travels through the filter, I would not mess with it,
>> other than to give it a quick rinse in tank water in a pail.
>
> But if you've got carbon in there, take it out and toss it. It really
> isn't needed and will do more ham than good if left in too long.

Welllllll, sort-of. Ordinarily I'd agree, but in this particular case:

On one hand, nitrifying bacteria have been colonizing the carbon as well
as the filter material, so you shouldn't be doing anything to upset the
culture (imo).

On the other hand, the best time to use carbon is with a new tank (new
plastic parts which were manufactured with release agents and solvent
cleaners), and the carbon will saturate quickly, and if not removed, will
start to release the chemicals which had been adsorbed.

Because I don't think the carbon will start dropping stuff back into the
water so quickly (probably take months, but I'm not sure), I'd tend to
leave the carbon in until the tank was cycled (to help keep the cycling
on track).

jmo
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.

--
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"Rodney M" > wrote in message
...
>
> I haven't had an aquarium since I was a kid but for the past 6 months
> I have been reading the newsgroups and various books on tropical fish
> and got the itch to get a tank going again. There was a 29 gallon
> tank with stand at the LFS by my house that I really liked. My wife
> surprised me on our 2 year anniversary and bought it for me. After
> doing some research, I bought the following for it:
>
> * Marineland Emperor 280 HOB filter with bio-wheel
> * Marineland Visi-Therm Stealth 100 submersible heater
> * Estes' Ultra Reef black marine sand (says safe for fresh or salt
> water)
> * Couple of fake pieces of wood and plants
>
> Here is a picture of my tank the night I filled it up with water for
> the first time (the picture was taken before I setup the Emperor
> filter):
>
> http://www.debaser.net/v1.5/images/fish_tank.jpg
>
> I conditioned the water with Jungle Water Safe Plus and let the tank
> run for a couple of days. I tested my water with those Jungle 5 in 1
> quick dip test strips and it showed the following: pH at 7.8,
> alkalinity (KH) at 180ppm and hardness (GH) at 150ppm. I set the
> heater to 76 and had it mounted on a 45 degree angle under the filter
> near the bottom of the tank. I was having problems with the
> temperature of the water moving up and down 1-2 degrees so I mounted
> the heater vertically under the filter to the left a little and the
> temperature stays right at 76 degrees now.
>
> I decided I ultimately wanted to have a species tank with tiger barbs
> so I picked up 3 green tiger barbs to cycle the tank. The fish were
> loving the tank and having a good time. There was one that was
> definately leader of the pack and would chase the other two around. I
> should have been keeping a better eye on them because after about two
> weeks, two of the barbs had there fins nipped really bad. One was so
> bad that it's pelvic fins were just these white puffs and his caudal
> fin was in rough shape too. The other one had his caudal fin nipped
> but was still in ok shape. During these two weeks, I had been
> checking my ammonia and nothing seemed to be showing up yet. My water
> had a cloudy look to it which I believe was from the backteria
> starting to grow. In fearing for my fish, I decided to get 3 albino
> tiger barbs to add to the tank, thinking the leader of the pack would
> have other fish to distract him. Unfortunately, it was too late and
> the one green tiger barb with the bad pelvic fins died soon after. A
> couple of days later, the other green tiger barb died. I decided I
> didn't want my 3 albino's to suffer the same fate so I took out the
> last green tiger barb out of the 29g tank.
>
> Shortly after adding the 3 albino's, I started seeing my ammonia level
> come up to about .25ppm. Around this same time, one of my albino's
> got some kind of eye infection. His right eye was really cloudy and
> enlarged. A couple of days later, he died. After I removed him from
> the tank, I did my first water change, which was around 20%. This was
> about 3 weeks after I initially setup the tank. At the same time, I
> also removed quite a bit of the sand to get it down to about an inch
> deep since I added too much initially. This probably wasn't a good
> thing to do as I'm sure it set back my cycling.
>
> I bought a Python to do my water changes and was doing a 20% water
> changes every 3 days after the first water change. The first couple
> water changes, I was adding the water directly to the tank and then
> putting in a capful of AquaPlus to remove the chlorine. I felt like I
> was wasting a ton of water with the Python and didn't really like the
> idea of adding untreated tap water directly to the tank so I bought a
> cheap syphon and a 5 gallon bucket to do water changes. I actually
> like this alot better than the Python.
>
> It's been 6 weeks since I initially setup my tank and it is only
> showing somewhere between .25 and .50ppm of ammonia and no signs of
> nitrite. My other levels are still the same (pH 7.8, KH 180ppm and GH
> at 150ppm). The two remaining albino's seems to be doing fine, tho
> one does get picked on by the other but I've been keeping an eye on
> his fins and they are fine. They actually like it when I do water
> changes and one of them swims right up to the hose as the water comes
> into the tank. My water still has a faint cloudy look to it.
>
> Should I continuing doing 20% water changes every 3 days until my tank
> is cycled? I was talking to a guy who seemed knowledgeable at the LFS
> tonight and he recommended I put some Hagen Cycle in my tank to help
> speed up the cycling process and that I cut back on water changes to
> once a week. What do you guys think? Also, should I replace the
> filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
> every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
> delay my tank cycling even longer. Also, the bio-wheel still seems to
> be moving pretty fast, no matter which way I turn the spray bar. It
> doesn't seem to be too discolored yet either. Speaking of spray bar,
> what position do you guys who have one of these filters put the spray
> bar and does it really matter?

Basically it matters. Turn the spray bar so the water jets are behind the
bio-wheel, then incrementally turn the spray bar the opposite direction from
what you just turned it for until the biowheel rotation slows a little. That
should be it, and by the way I use biowheel pro 60s and this method is what
I developed with them but it should work for you. Doing what I propose will
give the water coming out of the jets optimized exposure to the good
bacteria. I don't have hard proof this method is necessary but it's best to
be safe especially if the cost of being safe is so small, and the benefits
being so large. Good luck and later!


>
> Sorry for the long winded post. I just wanted to make sure I included
> enough info about what has been going on with my tank for the past 6
> weeks. Any input would be appreciate. Thanks.
>
> Rodney

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.

--
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"Rodney M" > wrote in message
...
>
> I haven't had an aquarium since I was a kid but for the past 6 months
> I have been reading the newsgroups and various books on tropical fish
> and got the itch to get a tank going again. There was a 29 gallon
> tank with stand at the LFS by my house that I really liked. My wife
> surprised me on our 2 year anniversary and bought it for me. After
> doing some research, I bought the following for it:
>
> * Marineland Emperor 280 HOB filter with bio-wheel
> * Marineland Visi-Therm Stealth 100 submersible heater
> * Estes' Ultra Reef black marine sand (says safe for fresh or salt
> water)
> * Couple of fake pieces of wood and plants
>
> Here is a picture of my tank the night I filled it up with water for
> the first time (the picture was taken before I setup the Emperor
> filter):
>
> http://www.debaser.net/v1.5/images/fish_tank.jpg
>
> I conditioned the water with Jungle Water Safe Plus and let the tank
> run for a couple of days. I tested my water with those Jungle 5 in 1
> quick dip test strips and it showed the following: pH at 7.8,
> alkalinity (KH) at 180ppm and hardness (GH) at 150ppm. I set the
> heater to 76 and had it mounted on a 45 degree angle under the filter
> near the bottom of the tank. I was having problems with the
> temperature of the water moving up and down 1-2 degrees so I mounted
> the heater vertically under the filter to the left a little and the
> temperature stays right at 76 degrees now.
>
> I decided I ultimately wanted to have a species tank with tiger barbs
> so I picked up 3 green tiger barbs to cycle the tank. The fish were
> loving the tank and having a good time. There was one that was
> definately leader of the pack and would chase the other two around. I
> should have been keeping a better eye on them because after about two
> weeks, two of the barbs had there fins nipped really bad. One was so
> bad that it's pelvic fins were just these white puffs and his caudal
> fin was in rough shape too. The other one had his caudal fin nipped
> but was still in ok shape. During these two weeks, I had been
> checking my ammonia and nothing seemed to be showing up yet. My water
> had a cloudy look to it which I believe was from the backteria
> starting to grow. In fearing for my fish, I decided to get 3 albino
> tiger barbs to add to the tank, thinking the leader of the pack would
> have other fish to distract him. Unfortunately, it was too late and
> the one green tiger barb with the bad pelvic fins died soon after. A
> couple of days later, the other green tiger barb died. I decided I
> didn't want my 3 albino's to suffer the same fate so I took out the
> last green tiger barb out of the 29g tank.
>
> Shortly after adding the 3 albino's, I started seeing my ammonia level
> come up to about .25ppm. Around this same time, one of my albino's
> got some kind of eye infection. His right eye was really cloudy and
> enlarged. A couple of days later, he died. After I removed him from
> the tank, I did my first water change, which was around 20%. This was
> about 3 weeks after I initially setup the tank. At the same time, I
> also removed quite a bit of the sand to get it down to about an inch
> deep since I added too much initially. This probably wasn't a good
> thing to do as I'm sure it set back my cycling.
>
> I bought a Python to do my water changes and was doing a 20% water
> changes every 3 days after the first water change. The first couple
> water changes, I was adding the water directly to the tank and then
> putting in a capful of AquaPlus to remove the chlorine. I felt like I
> was wasting a ton of water with the Python and didn't really like the
> idea of adding untreated tap water directly to the tank so I bought a
> cheap syphon and a 5 gallon bucket to do water changes. I actually
> like this alot better than the Python.

I agree with you about the python - I don't hate it but it wastes too much
water for what it does, and for small tanks doesn't help as much as it's
worth. I mostly use siphon hose and buckets now. Just thought I would put my
2 cents in. Good luck and later!


>
> It's been 6 weeks since I initially setup my tank and it is only
> showing somewhere between .25 and .50ppm of ammonia and no signs of
> nitrite. My other levels are still the same (pH 7.8, KH 180ppm and GH
> at 150ppm). The two remaining albino's seems to be doing fine, tho
> one does get picked on by the other but I've been keeping an eye on
> his fins and they are fine. They actually like it when I do water
> changes and one of them swims right up to the hose as the water comes
> into the tank. My water still has a faint cloudy look to it.
>
> Should I continuing doing 20% water changes every 3 days until my tank
> is cycled? I was talking to a guy who seemed knowledgeable at the LFS
> tonight and he recommended I put some Hagen Cycle in my tank to help
> speed up the cycling process and that I cut back on water changes to
> once a week. What do you guys think? Also, should I replace the
> filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
> every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
> delay my tank cycling even longer. Also, the bio-wheel still seems to
> be moving pretty fast, no matter which way I turn the spray bar. It
> doesn't seem to be too discolored yet either. Speaking of spray bar,
> what position do you guys who have one of these filters put the spray
> bar and does it really matter?
>
> Sorry for the long winded post. I just wanted to make sure I included
> enough info about what has been going on with my tank for the past 6
> weeks. Any input would be appreciate. Thanks.
>
> Rodney

[Rodney M]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:33:37 -0500, Steve > wrote:

>I'll give my answer to your question, for what it's worth. By all means
>do regular, even daily, partial water changes during the cycle if you
>have fish and the ammonia or nitrite are approaching stressful/ harmful
>levels. The water changes may help you keep conditions tolerable for the
>fish, and the cycle should complete anyway.

What would you consider a stressful/harmful level of ammonia? My
ammonia has been staying steady at around .50ppm for the last two
weeks.

>Once my big aquarium settled down it became incredibly stable and
>healthy. Good luck with yours :) !

Thanks for the info Steve. Take care.

Rodney

[Rodney M]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:19:42 -0600, "Koi-lo" >
wrote:

>Sometimes a tank takes awhile to "cycle." Be patient. I have a 10g with 2
>small goldfish that is taking forever to cycle even thought the filter has 2
>"used and seeded" sponges in it. Other tanks with seeded sponges either
>never show an ammonia surge, or show a very reading for a few days. Go
>figure! :-)
>
>As for the tiger barbs. You couldn't pay me to have this fish in any of my
>tanks. You really need to purchase about 8 to 10 of them to keep them from
>nipping each other to death. And they do get large if well fed and cared
>for. If you really like them buy at least 10 and add them to your tank all
>at the same time (after it cycles). Hope for the best. Watch for torn fins
>and infection anyway........ good luck!

I really should have used different fish to cycle the tank since I'm
seeing that you really need to add tiger barbs 6-8 at a time to a
tank. I really like the tiger barbs as they very active and fun fish
to watch. I don't give up that easily so I'm gonna stick with them
and see how it goes.

Thanks for the info. Take care.

Rodney

[Rodney M]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 18:56:56 +0100, Marco Schwarz
> wrote:

>Hi..
>
>> http://www.debaser.net/v1.5/images/fish_tank.jpg
>[...]
>
>Sorry, that photo shows IMHO no interior arrangement for
>tiger barbs. A 29 gallon tank is IMHO the (lowest) limit to
>keep tiger barbs at all. So you are limited to keep a small
>group tiger barbs (5-7), only. In smaller groups hunting or
>biting might be a problem.
>
>They need space to swimm around, more interior or plants to
>hide behind while playing hide an seek all day long.

I have been thinking about possibly removing the big piece of wood and
putting in some plants instead since I feel like it's taking up too
much room in the tank That big piece of wood does have four different
holes in it for fish to swim in but the holes are a little small for
tiger barbs.

>The fish keeper's primary directive is to keep the fish
>healthy.
>
>Cyling a tank while keeping _fish_ (-> worst case) means:
>1: Daily NO2 tests
>2: If NO2 == yes -> change water, 60-80%, daily, as long as
>NO2 is present. The swollen eye signals bad water.

I've been doing NO2 tests every couple of days and so far there have
been no signs of any.

>NO2 or bacteria that cloud water means stress, and stress
>weakens the immune system, so please remember to the fish
>keeper's primary derective.. ;-)

Thanks for the info Marco. Take care.

Rodney

[Rodney M]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:06:37 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Rodney M" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I haven't had an aquarium since I was a kid but for the past 6 months
>> I have been reading the newsgroups and various books on tropical fish
>> and got the itch to get a tank going again. There was a 29 gallon
>> tank with stand at the LFS by my house that I really liked. My wife
>> surprised me on our 2 year anniversary and bought it for me. After
>> doing some research, I bought the following for it:
>
>Welcome back to the hobby :o).

Thanks! I have a feeling it's going to be like my arcade game
collecting hobby - can't have just one. I started out with 1 arcade
game in my house and now I have 20+ games in my basement along with 5
out in the garage!

>> * Marineland Emperor 280 HOB filter with bio-wheel
>> * Marineland Visi-Therm Stealth 100 submersible heater
>> * Estes' Ultra Reef black marine sand (says safe for fresh or salt
>> water)
>> * Couple of fake pieces of wood and plants
>
>Nothing too problematic in there. The Emp's filters are proprietary ($),
>but the bio-wheel is a nice addition to the filtering process. The solid
>colour of the gravel has some cosmetic issues, which you will have to decide
>if they matter or not (solid colours show detritus more quickly).

I've noticed that the solid color of the sand really shows the
detritus like you said, but it does make it easier to find it and
clean it up. Regarding the filter, instead of using Marineland's
filter cartridges, could I just cut up some of that filter media you
can buy in big squares and put that in the media cartridge instead or
would that not work well?

>> Should I continuing doing 20% water changes every 3 days until my tank
>> is cycled? I was talking to a guy who seemed knowledgeable at the LFS
>> tonight and he recommended I put some Hagen Cycle in my tank to help
>> speed up the cycling process and that I cut back on water changes to
>> once a week. What do you guys think?
>
>Yes (on water changes) and the Hagen Cycle is up to you. It is better than
>nothing, but a bit slow (in my experience, and assuming they haven't changed
>the formula in the last 1-1/2 years). Your basic problem is that the tank
>is cycling very slowly, which drags it out, but if you don't mind then the
>fish won't either. The water changes keeps everything to safer low
>concentrations (imho).

I don't mind but I was hoping it would be cycled by now. The real
bummer is my LFS is having a 25% off all tropical fish but it's only
until the end of December. Not sure if my tank will be cycled by then
or not. Oh well, it's not like we are talking $20/piece fish.

> Also, should I replace the
>> filter in my Emperor? It's been 6 weeks and they say to change these
>> every month. I'm thinking I shouldn't since I don't want to possibly
>> delay my tank cycling even longer.
>
>As long as water travels through the filter, I would not mess with it, other
>than to give it a quick rinse in tank water in a pail.

Will do.

>> Sorry for the long winded post. I just wanted to make sure I included
>> enough info about what has been going on with my tank for the past 6
>> weeks. Any input would be appreciate. Thanks.
>
>Doesn't sound like you are doing too too badly, considering the trouble
>brand new tanks can cause. Some of your barb problems might have been
>outside of your control (weak stock) and partially to tank size. I've run
>Tiger barb species tanks (and they were great), but I'd used a 60g tank. A
>30g might be manageable with enough hiding spots, dither, and starting with
>about 6-8 small Tigers. They are not an easy fish to manage sometimes.

That makes me feel alot better. I think I'm going to remove that big
piece of wood and get some plants to create some hiding spots and more
swimming room upfront. Perhaps I will do this right after my tank
cycles and I add the rest of the barbs to the tank.

Thanks for your help Netmax. Take care.

Rodney

[Rick]

>
> I've noticed that the solid color of the sand really shows the
> detritus like you said, but it does make it easier to find it and
> clean it up. Regarding the filter, instead of using Marineland's
> filter cartridges, could I just cut up some of that filter media you
> can buy in big squares and put that in the media cartridge instead or
> would that not work well

Yes, that is what I do. Rip the old floss off of the cartridge and dump the
charcol then use the plastic backing to support the floss you cut to fit.
Much cheaper, and you don't keep adding charcol.

[NetMax]

"Rodney M" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:06:37 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Rodney M" > wrote in message
...
<snipped for brevity>

>>Nothing too problematic in there. The Emp's filters are proprietary
>>($),
>>but the bio-wheel is a nice addition to the filtering process. The
>>solid
>>colour of the gravel has some cosmetic issues, which you will have to
>>decide
>>if they matter or not (solid colours show detritus more quickly).
>
> I've noticed that the solid color of the sand really shows the
> detritus like you said, but it does make it easier to find it and
> clean it up. Regarding the filter, instead of using Marineland's
> filter cartridges, could I just cut up some of that filter media you
> can buy in big squares and put that in the media cartridge instead or
> would that not work well?

I do the same thing all the time. Generally speaking, you need to be
careful about going from one extreme (very coarse open cell) to another
extreme (very fine closed cell), but otherwise I experiment with
different filter media all the time. I think the bulk sheets you're
using are very similar to what you took out, perhaps a bit more coarse.
A finer filter media has more total surface area for bacterial
colonization, but your biowheel should more than make up the difference.

<snip>

> I don't mind but I was hoping it would be cycled by now. The real
> bummer is my LFS is having a 25% off all tropical fish but it's only
> until the end of December. Not sure if my tank will be cycled by then
> or not. Oh well, it's not like we are talking $20/piece fish.

That brings up an important point (which I think you already know, so
it's not neccesarily applicable to you).

The value of a fish has almost nothing to do with what you pay for a
fish. As consumers, we have the perfectly reasonable reflex of buying at
the lowest cost, because most of our purchases are things. However, when
the purchase is a living thing, the cost calculation is very different.
Buy an Oscar and when it's 10 years old, try to remember what you paid.
Then try to figure out what you invested annually in food, filter
supplies and your maintenance. I've watched people saving a couple of
dollars to buy a common Oscar instead of the Red Tiger Oscar they want (I
used to sell fish).

On the other hand, I've had customers who have been established hobbyists
for many years, who's purchasing priorities are more like (from most
important to least important) species, sex, size, condition, health and
how many they will buy. Once their minds are made up, they ask the price
to do the math and influence the quantity they are buying.

Don't be rushed into buying before you're ready, or buying something you
may not want. All the stores have year end events, monthly sales etc.
Then there are the monthly auctions at aquarium societies, and on-line
purchasing etc etc.

OK, I'm climbing off my soapbox now. You'll get used to me, I can get
preachy and long-winded ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

<snip>

[Steve]

Rodney M wrote:

>
> What would you consider a stressful/harmful level of ammonia? My
> ammonia has been staying steady at around .50ppm for the last two
> weeks.
>

My ammonia test kit says 0 ppm is ok, and 0.5 to 1 ppm ammonia causes
fish stress. I guess the trouble is that the test colors are not that
precise. It sounds like you're right around the upper tolerable limit
for ammonia, and it may be good to change some water daily to keep the
ammonia from becoming more concentrated.

My nitrite test kit says that fish can tolerate up to 0.5 mg/l (ppm)
nitrite.

In my established aquarium, nitrite and ammonia are undetectable using
the test kits. Tolerance to these compounds probably varies among fish
species too. I think barbs (your fish?) may be fairly tolerant of these
compounds, compared to other fish. Ammonia toxicity apparently also
varies with pH, and it's supposed to be more toxic with higher pH above
7.0 (above neutral, i.e. more alkaline).

Posters with more experience in these matters may have further comment.

Steve

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:51:16 -0500, NetMax wrote:

> On the other hand, the best time to use carbon is with a new tank (new
> plastic parts which were manufactured with release agents and solvent
> cleaners), and the carbon will saturate quickly, and if not removed, will
> start to release the chemicals which had been adsorbed.
>

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. I'll remember to use
carbon for new tank setups from now on.

> Because I don't think the carbon will start dropping stuff back into the
> water so quickly (probably take months, but I'm not sure), I'd tend to
> leave the carbon in until the tank was cycled (to help keep the cycling on
> track).

I read somewhere that it could be as little as 6 weeks, but your
experience outranks my reading :-),

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:03:52 -0800, Daniel Morrow wrote:

> I agree with you about the python - I don't hate it but it wastes too
> much water for what it does, and for small tanks doesn't help as much as
> it's worth. I mostly use siphon hose and buckets now. Just thought I
> would put my 2 cents in. Good luck and later!

I had problems with a bucket with 2 or 3 gallons of water in it when I had
to lift it high enough to siphon. So I bought a small water pump with a
6' lift. Works like a charm. Leaves about an inch of water in the bottom
of the bucket which I can then easily pour into the tank.

[NetMax]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:51:16 -0500, NetMax wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, the best time to use carbon is with a new tank (new
>> plastic parts which were manufactured with release agents and solvent
>> cleaners), and the carbon will saturate quickly, and if not removed,
>> will
>> start to release the chemicals which had been adsorbed.
>>
>
> That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. I'll remember to use
> carbon for new tank setups from now on.
>
>> Because I don't think the carbon will start dropping stuff back into
>> the
>> water so quickly (probably take months, but I'm not sure), I'd tend to
>> leave the carbon in until the tank was cycled (to help keep the
>> cycling on
>> track).
>
> I read somewhere that it could be as little as 6 weeks, but your
> experience outranks my reading :-),

lol, not neccesarily, especially in this case. You might have been
reading something repeated through websites, so the scientific
credibility is questionable. If you're really interested, you can always
email a carbon manufacturer such as www.calgoncarbon.com for technical
support. I'd give you my contact name there, but I'm not so sure he
wants or needs consumer emails ;~). fwiw, I still think the benefits of
leaving it there outweight the other factors. I think that the process
of dropping adsorbed molecules is much slower than adsorbing them to
start with (but note the 'I think' part ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
I think that the process
> of dropping adsorbed molecules is much slower than adsorbing them to start
> with (but note the 'I think' part ;~).
======================
I think there should be some way to tell when carbon is exhausted and
useless. Some of these carbons are expensive and we'd want the most for our
$$$. OTOH we don't want to leave it in so long that it starts to release
the toxins back into the tank. I used to keep some on hand but used it so
seldom I no longer buy it. I depend on water changes to remove dissolved
"stuff" in the water and any medications I may have used (including salt
which carbon doesn't remove).
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NetMax]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> I think that the process
>> of dropping adsorbed molecules is much slower than adsorbing them to
>> start with (but note the 'I think' part ;~).
> ======================
> I think there should be some way to tell when carbon is exhausted and
> useless. Some of these carbons are expensive and we'd want the most
> for our $$$. OTOH we don't want to leave it in so long that it starts
> to release the toxins back into the tank. I used to keep some on hand
> but used it so seldom I no longer buy it. I depend on water changes to
> remove dissolved "stuff" in the water and any medications I may have
> used (including salt which carbon doesn't remove).

There are ways to test carbon. I used a chlorine test to determine the
condition of carbon prefilters on water supply lines. I've been told
that there is a method using methylene blue, but you'd need to google the
web for its details, and probably find other methods in the process.
Generally, I do the same thing as you. Carbon can be used for new tanks
& equipment and to remove old medications, but I mostly rely on water
changes.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Hi Rodney,
I just went throught the same thing with a 20 gallon tank. In my case, the
tank went throught the first part of the cycle, and got stuck in the
nitrite phase. I was doing water changes like mad! Someone in the goldfish
group told me about this stuff called "Bio Spira". It is a fairly new
formulation, based on some solid research and development, and it works
wonders. Three days after adding it to my tank, the cycle is complete and
as clear a crystal. All I have to do now is some water changes to dilute
the Nitrates some. I highly recomend this stuff for one simple reason . .
. It works!

If you want to check into it, and read the research papers etc, do a
google search for "Marineland". Then check out the Doctors section. There
is also a place were you can find a local dealer by putting in your zip
code. I heard there is a mail order place selling Bio Spira, but I don't
recomend that, as this stuff is very perishable, and has to remain
refrigerated. Other than that however, this is very safe and easy to use .
. . and it works.

--
With all due respect
Kevin

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.

--
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:03:52 -0800, Daniel Morrow wrote:
>
> > I agree with you about the python - I don't hate it but it wastes too
> > much water for what it does, and for small tanks doesn't help as much as
> > it's worth. I mostly use siphon hose and buckets now. Just thought I
> > would put my 2 cents in. Good luck and later!
>
> I had problems with a bucket with 2 or 3 gallons of water in it when I had
> to lift it high enough to siphon. So I bought a small water pump with a
> 6' lift. Works like a charm. Leaves about an inch of water in the bottom
> of the bucket which I can then easily pour into the tank.

That's a good idea! I plan on experimenting with using various techniques
together at the same time as one (i.e. use a small 6' lift or greater water
pump and some of a no spill to pump water outside, and use an in kitchen
faucet water pressure no spill hose with adapters to fill - I do the latter
now already but notice at the end of using it the vinyl hose gets plump and
I am quite worried it may rupture and make a big mess on my kitchen floor,
for now I just keep aware of it's condition and we will see what happens -
i.e. if it ever ruptures hopefully I will be able to minimize the damage),
but what really interests me is me getting a magnum 350 deluxe kit so I can
gravel vac and not waste water and not lose any baby fancy guppy fry (by
scooping it out of the transparent magnum 350 filter canister since the
water is "pulled" through the filter cartridge/foam and not "pushed" through
it so no fry can get hurt), and refill using parts of a no spill kit if I
have good long term use of my no spill vinyl hose (i.e. it doesn't rupture).
Good luck and later!

[NetMax]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> Bottom posted.
>
> --
> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:03:52 -0800, Daniel Morrow wrote:
>>
>> > I agree with you about the python - I don't hate it but it wastes
>> > too
>> > much water for what it does, and for small tanks doesn't help as
>> > much as
>> > it's worth. I mostly use siphon hose and buckets now. Just thought I
>> > would put my 2 cents in. Good luck and later!
>>
>> I had problems with a bucket with 2 or 3 gallons of water in it when I
>> had
>> to lift it high enough to siphon. So I bought a small water pump with
>> a
>> 6' lift. Works like a charm. Leaves about an inch of water in the
>> bottom
>> of the bucket which I can then easily pour into the tank.
>
> That's a good idea! I plan on experimenting with using various
> techniques
> together at the same time as one (i.e. use a small 6' lift or greater
> water
> pump and some of a no spill to pump water outside, and use an in
> kitchen
> faucet water pressure no spill hose with adapters to fill - I do the
> latter
> now already but notice at the end of using it the vinyl hose gets plump
> and
> I am quite worried it may rupture and make a big mess on my kitchen
> floor,
> for now I just keep aware of it's condition and we will see what
> happens -
> i.e. if it ever ruptures hopefully I will be able to minimize the
> damage),
> but what really interests me is me getting a magnum 350 deluxe kit so I
> can
> gravel vac and not waste water and not lose any baby fancy guppy fry
> (by
> scooping it out of the transparent magnum 350 filter canister since the
> water is "pulled" through the filter cartridge/foam and not "pushed"
> through
> it so no fry can get hurt), and refill using parts of a no spill kit if
> I
> have good long term use of my no spill vinyl hose (i.e. it doesn't
> rupture).
> Good luck and later!


I've blown apart Pythons with water pressure. They are not designed for
your typical 80-120psi municipal supply.

The disadvantage of the Magnum gravel vacuuming/recycling method is that
you don't dilute the dissolved organic solids and other matter in the
water. You only remove particulate matter. If you use it regularly and
still do water changes, then you're at the same point as doing both at
the same time conventionally with a Python (or similar method).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.

--
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Bottom posted.
> >
> > --
> > You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
> > "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:03:52 -0800, Daniel Morrow wrote:
> >>
> >> > I agree with you about the python - I don't hate it but it wastes
> >> > too
> >> > much water for what it does, and for small tanks doesn't help as
> >> > much as
> >> > it's worth. I mostly use siphon hose and buckets now. Just thought I
> >> > would put my 2 cents in. Good luck and later!
> >>
> >> I had problems with a bucket with 2 or 3 gallons of water in it when I
> >> had
> >> to lift it high enough to siphon. So I bought a small water pump with
> >> a
> >> 6' lift. Works like a charm. Leaves about an inch of water in the
> >> bottom
> >> of the bucket which I can then easily pour into the tank.
> >
> > That's a good idea! I plan on experimenting with using various
> > techniques
> > together at the same time as one (i.e. use a small 6' lift or greater
> > water
> > pump and some of a no spill to pump water outside, and use an in
> > kitchen
> > faucet water pressure no spill hose with adapters to fill - I do the
> > latter
> > now already but notice at the end of using it the vinyl hose gets plump
> > and
> > I am quite worried it may rupture and make a big mess on my kitchen
> > floor,
> > for now I just keep aware of it's condition and we will see what
> > happens -
> > i.e. if it ever ruptures hopefully I will be able to minimize the
> > damage),
> > but what really interests me is me getting a magnum 350 deluxe kit so I
> > can
> > gravel vac and not waste water and not lose any baby fancy guppy fry
> > (by
> > scooping it out of the transparent magnum 350 filter canister since the
> > water is "pulled" through the filter cartridge/foam and not "pushed"
> > through
> > it so no fry can get hurt), and refill using parts of a no spill kit if
> > I
> > have good long term use of my no spill vinyl hose (i.e. it doesn't
> > rupture).
> > Good luck and later!
>
>
> I've blown apart Pythons with water pressure. They are not designed for
> your typical 80-120psi municipal supply.

Thanks for the answer netmax - I tried asking about this here earlier but
received no response as far as I know. Your answer I think saved me a
disaster! Especially since your answer cam from you yourself (i.e. you are
educated and have experience, etc.). I am going to see what I can do to
improve the water powered water pump's efficiency and use it to prevent a
blowout.


>
> The disadvantage of the Magnum gravel vacuuming/recycling method is that
> you don't dilute the dissolved organic solids and other matter in the
> water. You only remove particulate matter. If you use it regularly and
> still do water changes, then you're at the same point as doing both at
> the same time conventionally with a Python (or similar method).

That's what I meant to say - I would use the magnum to do the gravel vacing
and siphon/pump water out of that tank later. Don't worry - I am not trying
to find a way out of changing the water itself, I am just trying to be more
flexible (i.e. I might do one of my bowl (2 gallon drum) projects and the
magnum would be perfect for it in the previous way as gravity siphons are
not likely to be usable to gravel vac a 2 gallon drum as the water would be
used up almost immediately and I don't want to do 99.9999% water changes
every few days if I go along with the project). I think there might be even
other benefits to using the magnum to gravel vac and later do a faucet to
tank refilling.

Thanks again for the answer netmax - I just wanted to know one way or the
other from a creditable source (you). Good luck and later!


> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

[Rodney M]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:34:03 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Rodney M" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:06:37 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"Rodney M" > wrote in message
...
><snipped for brevity>
>
>>>Nothing too problematic in there. The Emp's filters are proprietary
>>>($),
>>>but the bio-wheel is a nice addition to the filtering process. The
>>>solid
>>>colour of the gravel has some cosmetic issues, which you will have to
>>>decide
>>>if they matter or not (solid colours show detritus more quickly).
>>
>> I've noticed that the solid color of the sand really shows the
>> detritus like you said, but it does make it easier to find it and
>> clean it up. Regarding the filter, instead of using Marineland's
>> filter cartridges, could I just cut up some of that filter media you
>> can buy in big squares and put that in the media cartridge instead or
>> would that not work well?
>
>I do the same thing all the time. Generally speaking, you need to be
>careful about going from one extreme (very coarse open cell) to another
>extreme (very fine closed cell), but otherwise I experiment with
>different filter media all the time. I think the bulk sheets you're
>using are very similar to what you took out, perhaps a bit more coarse.
>A finer filter media has more total surface area for bacterial
>colonization, but your biowheel should more than make up the difference.

Good to know. I will give that a try after I run out of the 4 Emperor
cartridges I bought. I will also try to get filter media that is
close to what the Empreror cartridges use. It will save me some money
in the future and avoid having to use carbon since it's in each of the
Emperor filter cartridges.

>> I don't mind but I was hoping it would be cycled by now. The real
>> bummer is my LFS is having a 25% off all tropical fish but it's only
>> until the end of December. Not sure if my tank will be cycled by then
>> or not. Oh well, it's not like we are talking $20/piece fish.
>
>That brings up an important point (which I think you already know, so
>it's not neccesarily applicable to you).
>
>The value of a fish has almost nothing to do with what you pay for a
>fish. As consumers, we have the perfectly reasonable reflex of buying at
>the lowest cost, because most of our purchases are things. However, when
>the purchase is a living thing, the cost calculation is very different.
>Buy an Oscar and when it's 10 years old, try to remember what you paid.
>Then try to figure out what you invested annually in food, filter
>supplies and your maintenance. I've watched people saving a couple of
>dollars to buy a common Oscar instead of the Red Tiger Oscar they want (I
>used to sell fish).

Very true. You have to think about the the long term costs of the
fish and not just the up front cost of the fish.

>OK, I'm climbing off my soapbox now. You'll get used to me, I can get
>preachy and long-winded ;~).

Hah, no problem I all. I appreciate the advice. Thanks again!

Rodney

[Rodney M]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:04:42 -0800, Larry Blanchard
> wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:03:52 -0800, Daniel Morrow wrote:
>
>> I agree with you about the python - I don't hate it but it wastes too
>> much water for what it does, and for small tanks doesn't help as much as
>> it's worth. I mostly use siphon hose and buckets now. Just thought I
>> would put my 2 cents in. Good luck and later!
>
>I had problems with a bucket with 2 or 3 gallons of water in it when I had
>to lift it high enough to siphon. So I bought a small water pump with a
>6' lift. Works like a charm. Leaves about an inch of water in the bottom
>of the bucket which I can then easily pour into the tank.

A guy at the LFS recommended this for adding water back to the tank
from my 5 gallon bucket. I ended up using a short ladder that I had
to put the 5 gallon bucket on top of, which brings the bucket higher
than the tank but not so high that it's hard to get at. I then use my
siphon to put the water back in the tank after I treat it to remove
the chlorine. Works great.

Rodney

[Rodney M]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:35:22 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
>> Bottom posted.
>>
>> --
>> You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
>> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:03:52 -0800, Daniel Morrow wrote:
>>>
>>> > I agree with you about the python - I don't hate it but it wastes
>>> > too
>>> > much water for what it does, and for small tanks doesn't help as
>>> > much as
>>> > it's worth. I mostly use siphon hose and buckets now. Just thought I
>>> > would put my 2 cents in. Good luck and later!
>>>
>>> I had problems with a bucket with 2 or 3 gallons of water in it when I
>>> had
>>> to lift it high enough to siphon. So I bought a small water pump with
>>> a
>>> 6' lift. Works like a charm. Leaves about an inch of water in the
>>> bottom
>>> of the bucket which I can then easily pour into the tank.
>>
>> That's a good idea! I plan on experimenting with using various
>> techniques
>> together at the same time as one (i.e. use a small 6' lift or greater
>> water
>> pump and some of a no spill to pump water outside, and use an in
>> kitchen
>> faucet water pressure no spill hose with adapters to fill - I do the
>> latter
>> now already but notice at the end of using it the vinyl hose gets plump
>> and
>> I am quite worried it may rupture and make a big mess on my kitchen
>> floor,
>> for now I just keep aware of it's condition and we will see what
>> happens -
>> i.e. if it ever ruptures hopefully I will be able to minimize the
>> damage),
>> but what really interests me is me getting a magnum 350 deluxe kit so I
>> can
>> gravel vac and not waste water and not lose any baby fancy guppy fry
>> (by
>> scooping it out of the transparent magnum 350 filter canister since the
>> water is "pulled" through the filter cartridge/foam and not "pushed"
>> through
>> it so no fry can get hurt), and refill using parts of a no spill kit if
>> I
>> have good long term use of my no spill vinyl hose (i.e. it doesn't
>> rupture).
>> Good luck and later!
>
>
>I've blown apart Pythons with water pressure. They are not designed for
>your typical 80-120psi municipal supply.

That's for sure. I could never use the open/close valve that is near
the siphon on my Python. The water pressure was so great that water
was spraying all over the place at the faucet, even after I replaced
the plastic connector with a brass one.

Rodney

[Rodney M]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:15:24 GMT, wrote:

>Hi Rodney,
> I just went throught the same thing with a 20 gallon tank. In my case, the
> tank went throught the first part of the cycle, and got stuck in the
> nitrite phase. I was doing water changes like mad! Someone in the goldfish
> group told me about this stuff called "Bio Spira". It is a fairly new
> formulation, based on some solid research and development, and it works
> wonders. Three days after adding it to my tank, the cycle is complete and
> as clear a crystal. All I have to do now is some water changes to dilute
> the Nitrates some. I highly recomend this stuff for one simple reason . .
> . It works!
>
> If you want to check into it, and read the research papers etc, do a
> google search for "Marineland". Then check out the Doctors section. There
> is also a place were you can find a local dealer by putting in your zip
> code. I heard there is a mail order place selling Bio Spira, but I don't
> recomend that, as this stuff is very perishable, and has to remain
> refrigerated. Other than that however, this is very safe and easy to use .
> . . and it works.

Hey Kevin,

I've heard from a couple of different people that the Bio Spira works
really good. I think I'm just gonna let my 29g tank cycle the old
fashioned way but if/when I setup a new tank, I might give that a try.

Thanks for the info and take care.

Rodney