goldfish question

[[email protected]]

Hi everyone, new to the group.

I have a feeder goldfish, about 1.5" long, very healthy appetite and
energetic when it wants to be. Hey gotta start somewhere right? I
picked up a 3-gallon Marineland Eclipse 3 with the bio-wheel filter
'cause it got pretty decent reviews on some sites I looked at and
decided anything with a filter in it is better than (gasp) a bowl (heh,
i read the big eruption about the lady who understandably didn't want
to pay $500 for pet deposit to keep two small fish in a bowl), bought a
5lb bag of gravel, rinsed it all over, set up the tank, let the water
sit for a good while, got some plant bulbs but after 2 weeks nothing
has grown so stuck a dozen stems of anacharis in there too, got a nice
decorative rock with a hole in it, and my goldfish loved the tank and
swims through the hole in the rock, etc. I feed sinking pellets in the
morning, and a few flakes at night. Water was tap water treated with
AMQuel+ (nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, chloride, chloramine), and is
typically 75F without a heater installed.

I've cleaned the water in the tank after a week (changed about 25% of
the water) using a typical gravel cleaning hose, worked great.

All of this sits on my desk at work. Coworkers love it, they ask lots
of questions prompting me to go learn more. My wife has a 10gal
freshwater tank at home and she's been a good source for info (she's
kept a tank for many years)

Few questions/thoughts I have:

I put a 3-day disolvable feeder in the tank Friday before I left work,
came back in Monday and saw it was mostly dissolved, which meant the
fish was well fed - but the water was pretty murky after that, which
prompted the 25% water change which I was told I only really needed
once a month, not what will turn into a weekly chore if I keep using
the 3-day feeders. A pet shop staff member said that goldfish are
pretty hardy and as long as they're normally fed on Friday (not
overfed), they'd be fine until Monday morning - I've seen other sites
suggesting that making your fish fast now and then is healthy for them
- is this true?

For the last two days though, and again today, he's been content to
swim around a little, then rest right on the gravel on the bed of the
tank. he/she/it flattens its dorsel fin against its body, and just sits
there. I know it's breathing 'cause every time it happens, I watch
intently to see what's going on. After a few minutes, it'll swim around
a little, might hide up in the top-back-left corner of the tank behind
the filter tube, but still drifts down to the bottom a few times a day
and just 'sits' on the gravel. I can't imagine that's normal behavior
for a goldfish... He doesn't tip over, he's not swimming crooked or
anything, he's perfectly vertical while swimming around, but he just
sits right at the bottom of the tank. Very odd in my opinion, but then
I'm not anything close to an expert so figured I'd ask you guys.

This morning, I noticed a few little white spots on its right side near
the anal fin, but as the day went on they seem to have gone away. He's
been swiming fine, eating fine, loves to siphon the gravel for
leftovers, but then he'll pause, stop, sink to the gravel, and sit
there. There are no other spots on him, his scales are bight shiney
orange, his fins look okay (no red, no rips etc)

Is this really normal behavior, or should I just consider that a $0.20
feeder goldfish really isn't meant as a long-term aquatic pet? Should I
look at getting a pair of tetras or something else instead?

Thanks,
Ian

[Koi-lo]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi everyone, new to the group.
>
> I have a feeder goldfish, about 1.5" long, very healthy appetite and
> energetic when it wants to be. Hey gotta start somewhere right? I
> picked up a 3-gallon Marineland Eclipse 3 with the bio-wheel
> filter..........

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

> I put a 3-day disolvable feeder in the tank Friday before I left work,
> came back in Monday and saw it was mostly dissolved, which meant the
> fish was well fed - but the water was pretty murky after that, which
> prompted the 25% water change which I was told I only really needed
> once a month,

Don't use those feeder blocks. They foul the water and contain almost no
food. It's almost all filler. Your goldfish will do fine with no food over
the weekends. Feed him a 3rd time when you get back to work on Monday. I
had a tank on my desk at work as well (before I retired). :-)

not what will turn into a weekly chore if I keep using
> the 3-day feeders. A pet shop staff member said that goldfish are
> pretty hardy and as long as they're normally fed on Friday (not
> overfed), they'd be fine until Monday morning -

Exactly! My goldfish at the office were fine even over a 3 day weekend.

I've seen other sites
> suggesting that making your fish fast now and then is healthy for them
> - is this true?

Not to my knowledge.

.... He doesn't tip over, he's not swimming crooked or
> anything, he's perfectly vertical while swimming around, but he just
> sits right at the bottom of the tank. Very odd in my opinion, but then
> I'm not anything close to an expert so figured I'd ask you guys....

What is the ammonia reading in this tank? How about the nitrite levels?
You do dechlorinate the water you add I hope.

> This morning, I noticed a few little white spots on its right side near
> the anal fin, but as the day went on they seem to have gone away. He's
> been swiming fine, eating fine, loves to siphon the gravel for
> leftovers, but then he'll pause, stop, sink to the gravel, and sit
> there. There are no other spots on him, his scales are bight shiney
> orange, his fins look okay (no red, no rips etc)

Usually feeders aren't the healthiest fish in the store. No one cares about
them because most will go as food to some predator someone keeps. White
spots can be ick. You can Google Goldfish and come up with more info than
you can read.

> Is this really normal behavior, or should I just consider that a $0.20
> feeder goldfish really isn't meant as a long-term aquatic pet? Should I
> look at getting a pair of tetras or something else instead?

Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Eric]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:03:28 -0600, wrote
(in article om>):


> I've cleaned the water in the tank after a week (changed about 25% of
> the water) using a typical gravel cleaning hose, worked great.

Goldfish are messy. You may be doing this a lot.

> I put a 3-day disolvable feeder in the tank Friday before I left work,
> came back in Monday and saw it was mostly dissolved, which meant the
> fish was well fed - but the water was pretty murky after that, which
> prompted the 25% water change which I was told I only really needed
> once a month, not what will turn into a weekly chore if I keep using
> the 3-day feeders. A pet shop staff member said that goldfish are
> pretty hardy and as long as they're normally fed on Friday (not
> overfed), they'd be fine until Monday morning - I've seen other sites
> suggesting that making your fish fast now and then is healthy for them
> - is this true?

An occasional fast is certainly not unhealthy. I think it actually improves
their diet by forcing them to scavange the tank. In any event, I think thee
day feeders are more likely to cause more problems than they solve.


> For the last two days though, and again today, he's been content to
> swim around a little, then rest right on the gravel on the bed of the
> tank. he/she/it flattens its dorsel fin against its body, and just sits
> there. I know it's breathing 'cause every time it happens, I watch
> intently to see what's going on. After a few minutes, it'll swim around
> a little, might hide up in the top-back-left corner of the tank behind
> the filter tube, but still drifts down to the bottom a few times a day
> and just 'sits' on the gravel. I can't imagine that's normal behavior
> for a goldfish... He doesn't tip over, he's not swimming crooked or
> anything, he's perfectly vertical while swimming around, but he just
> sits right at the bottom of the tank. Very odd in my opinion, but then
> I'm not anything close to an expert so figured I'd ask you guys.

If he's holding his fins up most of the time and can swim vigorously I
wouldn't be too worried.

> This morning, I noticed a few little white spots on its right side near
> the anal fin, but as the day went on they seem to have gone away. He's
> been swiming fine, eating fine, loves to siphon the gravel for
> leftovers, but then he'll pause, stop, sink to the gravel, and sit
> there. There are no other spots on him, his scales are bight shiney
> orange, his fins look okay (no red, no rips etc)

Continue to look for little white spots. Did they look like salt crystals? If
so, it's likely ich.

> Is this really normal behavior, or should I just consider that a $0.20
> feeder goldfish really isn't meant as a long-term aquatic pet? Should I
> look at getting a pair of tetras or something else instead?

Feeders are shipped under appalling conditions, and sometimes a batch will be
so bad off that many die. Nevertheless, quite healthy fish can come from the
feeder tank.

As for your second question, ultimately this fish will become so big that he
strains your tank's ecology. He might reach reach that equilibrium that some
call "growing to fit the tank" which really means that he is chronically ill.
You might have a lot of problems at that point. I think that you might do
better with a few small tropicals. White clouds are my favorite small tank
fish. I've spawned a pair in a gallon.

-E

[[email protected]]

(going to reply to both reply messages here)

> Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Yeah, probably. Just not sure it's worth it for a $0.20 goldfish
though, unless I step up to other types of schooling fish like tetras
or guppies or something else simple? I'm admittedly new to this, so I'm
not going to rush out and buy freshwater angelfish or anything ;o)

> What is the ammonia reading in this tank? How about the nitrite levels?
> You do dechlorinate the water you add I hope.

Well, only being into this hobby for 2.5 weeks, I haven't purchased any
testing kits, so I have no idea what the levels are. As mentioned in my
previous post, I've been treating all water with AmQuel+ which helps
manage chloramine, cloride, nitrate, nitrite and ammonia levels,
although I haven't followed up as much on how those levels are affected
by the addative other than the chloramine and chloride levels being
lowered if not elimited. I suppose I could pick up a testing kit at
lunch and have a look.

> If he's holding his fins up most of the time and can swim vigorously I
> wouldn't be too worried.

Yeah, he's holding his fin up right now, and swims around, he's going
through all levels of the water (top, mid, low) and then settles back
down on the bottom. My wife, who has kept an aquairum for a while
thinks that maybe he's stressed or tired?

> Feeders are shipped under appalling conditions, and sometimes a batch will be
> so bad off that many die

When I started two weeks ago, I bought two feeder goldfish, and one
died within 24 hours after looking *very* lethargic, and was removed
within 10 seconds of dying - I was keeping a very close eye on it. The
remaining fish has lasted, like I said, two weeks, and has a healthy
appetite and swims just fine, it just seems very odd to me that it'd
rest on the gravel in the tank... didn't seem like normal fish behavior
to me.

Thanks for the followup!

ian

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Hi everyone, new to the group.
>
> I have a feeder goldfish, about 1.5" long, very healthy appetite and
> energetic when it wants to be. Hey gotta start somewhere right? I
> picked up a 3-gallon Marineland Eclipse 3 with the bio-wheel filter
> 'cause it got pretty decent reviews on some sites I looked at and
> decided anything with a filter in it is better than (gasp) a bowl (heh,
> i read the big eruption about the lady who understandably didn't want
> to pay $500 for pet deposit to keep two small fish in a bowl), bought a
> 5lb bag of gravel, rinsed it all over, set up the tank, let the water
> sit for a good while, got some plant bulbs but after 2 weeks nothing
> has grown so stuck a dozen stems of anacharis in there too, got a nice
> decorative rock with a hole in it, and my goldfish loved the tank and
> swims through the hole in the rock, etc. I feed sinking pellets in the
> morning, and a few flakes at night. Water was tap water treated with
> AMQuel+ (nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, chloride, chloramine), and is
> typically 75F without a heater installed.
>
> I've cleaned the water in the tank after a week (changed about 25% of
> the water) using a typical gravel cleaning hose, worked great.
>
> All of this sits on my desk at work. Coworkers love it, they ask lots
> of questions prompting me to go learn more. My wife has a 10gal
> freshwater tank at home and she's been a good source for info (she's
> kept a tank for many years)
>
> Few questions/thoughts I have:
>
> I put a 3-day disolvable feeder in the tank Friday before I left work,
> came back in Monday and saw it was mostly dissolved, which meant the
> fish was well fed - but the water was pretty murky after that, which
> prompted the 25% water change which I was told I only really needed
> once a month, not what will turn into a weekly chore if I keep using
> the 3-day feeders. A pet shop staff member said that goldfish are
> pretty hardy and as long as they're normally fed on Friday (not
> overfed), they'd be fine until Monday morning - I've seen other sites
> suggesting that making your fish fast now and then is healthy for them
> - is this true?
>
> For the last two days though, and again today, he's been content to
> swim around a little, then rest right on the gravel on the bed of the
> tank. he/she/it flattens its dorsel fin against its body, and just sits
> there. I know it's breathing 'cause every time it happens, I watch
> intently to see what's going on. After a few minutes, it'll swim around
> a little, might hide up in the top-back-left corner of the tank behind
> the filter tube, but still drifts down to the bottom a few times a day
> and just 'sits' on the gravel. I can't imagine that's normal behavior
> for a goldfish... He doesn't tip over, he's not swimming crooked or
> anything, he's perfectly vertical while swimming around, but he just
> sits right at the bottom of the tank. Very odd in my opinion, but then
> I'm not anything close to an expert so figured I'd ask you guys.
>
> This morning, I noticed a few little white spots on its right side near
> the anal fin, but as the day went on they seem to have gone away. He's
> been swiming fine, eating fine, loves to siphon the gravel for
> leftovers, but then he'll pause, stop, sink to the gravel, and sit
> there. There are no other spots on him, his scales are bight shiney
> orange, his fins look okay (no red, no rips etc)
>
> Is this really normal behavior, or should I just consider that a $0.20
> feeder goldfish really isn't meant as a long-term aquatic pet? Should I
> look at getting a pair of tetras or something else instead?
>
> Thanks,
> Ian

Not normal behavior. The fin clamping is particularly worrisome. Your
2.5 week old tank is probably cycling and you worsened the situation by
using a weekend feeder. See http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html
for more information. Test for ammonia and nitrite and change some more
water if either is high. I'm guessing you have a nitrite spike.

Your fish will be fine over a weekend without any food, and will nibble
on the anacharis if it gets really hungry.

If your goldfish dies, consider a fish that won't outgrow the tank.
Goldfish can get really big if you care for them well. Since your tank
is at tropical temperatures, you could have a group of any small tetra,
danio or rasbora, or a male betta.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Koi-lo]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
I was keeping a very close eye on it. The
> remaining fish has lasted, like I said, two weeks, and has a healthy
> appetite and swims just fine, it just seems very odd to me that it'd
> rest on the gravel in the tank... didn't seem like normal fish behavior
> to me.
========================
With the products you're using I don't know how your kits will read
(accurately or not) or if a healthy nitrogen cycle and develop. Resting on
the gravel isn't really a good sign as healthy GF are usually moving about
the tank as long as it's light enough to see. I'm going to suggest you do
some partial water changes using ONLY a product that removes chloramines and
chlorine. Then watch to see if there's an ammonia problem.... others may
have other ideas.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NetMax]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi everyone, new to the group.
<snip>

> Is this really normal behavior, or should I just consider that a $0.20
> feeder goldfish really isn't meant as a long-term aquatic pet? Should I
> look at getting a pair of tetras or something else instead?
>
> Thanks,
> Ian


I think most of your questions have been answered
tank too small
feeder blocks bad
tank is cycling, probably getting toxic, do water changes
Ich, clamped fins bad
gravel sitting not good etc etc
...so I'll limit myself to responding on what wasn't commented on.

The value of the 'pet' really has little to do with the purchase cost
(something I had to teach new young employees). This is particularly
acute with Comets (feeder goldfish), because although their purchase
price is next to nothing, they can easily live 8-10 years (outliving any
tetra I know of) and more (20 years is probably their max. life
expectancy).

After many years of having a pet fish, your financial investment is
certainly there (ie: food), your time invested is significant (ie:
maintenance), and an emotional 'value' develops, far beyond a vague
recollection of what you actually paid for it.

I've sold expensive aquarium setups to upgrade the 'family' Comet which
simply grew up with the kids and *was* part of the family. Typically
there was one parent muttering in the background about all this money for
a 'feeder' but he/she was usually smacked into submission by the rest of
the family ;~).

I've also rescued 6" Comets out of a 5g tank because the owners simply
refused to spend any money on a 'feeder fish' which had only cost them 25
cents, but at least they knew it was time to do something when the fish
was too long to feed from the surface (tank was too shallow). Takes all
kinds.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[dc]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in
:

> I'm going to suggest you do some partial water changes using ONLY a
> product that removes chloramines and chlorine. Then watch to see if
> there's an ammonia problem.... others may have other ideas.

A sal****er (two part) ammonia tester that is not based on the Nessler
method should measure the presence of ammonia despite the use of
detoxifying agents.

[Koi-lo]

"dc" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Koi-lo" > wrote in
> :
>
>> I'm going to suggest you do some partial water changes using ONLY a
>> product that removes chloramines and chlorine. Then watch to see if
>> there's an ammonia problem.... others may have other ideas.
>
> A sal****er (two part) ammonia tester that is not based on the Nessler
> method should measure the presence of ammonia despite the use of
> detoxifying agents.
========================
I see. I was just wondering if these products were screwing up the nitrogen
cycle.

Thank you.......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Hi everyone, new to the group.
> >
> > I have a feeder goldfish, about 1.5" long, very healthy appetite and
> > energetic when it wants to be. Hey gotta start somewhere right? I
> > picked up a 3-gallon Marineland Eclipse 3 with the bio-wheel
> > filter..........
>
> Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g tank is
> much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?
>
> > I put a 3-day disolvable feeder in the tank Friday before I left work,
> > came back in Monday and saw it was mostly dissolved, which meant the
> > fish was well fed - but the water was pretty murky after that, which
> > prompted the 25% water change which I was told I only really needed
> > once a month,
>
> Don't use those feeder blocks. They foul the water and contain almost no
> food. It's almost all filler. Your goldfish will do fine with no food over
> the weekends. Feed him a 3rd time when you get back to work on Monday. I
> had a tank on my desk at work as well (before I retired). :-)
>
> not what will turn into a weekly chore if I keep using
> > the 3-day feeders. A pet shop staff member said that goldfish are
> > pretty hardy and as long as they're normally fed on Friday (not
> > overfed), they'd be fine until Monday morning -
>
> Exactly! My goldfish at the office were fine even over a 3 day weekend.
>
> I've seen other sites
> > suggesting that making your fish fast now and then is healthy for them
> > - is this true?
>
> Not to my knowledge.
>
> ... He doesn't tip over, he's not swimming crooked or
> > anything, he's perfectly vertical while swimming around, but he just
> > sits right at the bottom of the tank. Very odd in my opinion, but then
> > I'm not anything close to an expert so figured I'd ask you guys....
>
> What is the ammonia reading in this tank? How about the nitrite levels?
> You do dechlorinate the water you add I hope.
>
> > This morning, I noticed a few little white spots on its right side near
> > the anal fin, but as the day went on they seem to have gone away. He's
> > been swiming fine, eating fine, loves to siphon the gravel for
> > leftovers, but then he'll pause, stop, sink to the gravel, and sit
> > there. There are no other spots on him, his scales are bight shiney
> > orange, his fins look okay (no red, no rips etc)
>
> Usually feeders aren't the healthiest fish in the store. No one cares about
> them because most will go as food to some predator someone keeps. White
> spots can be ick. You can Google Goldfish and come up with more info than
> you can read.
>
> > Is this really normal behavior, or should I just consider that a $0.20
> > feeder goldfish really isn't meant as a long-term aquatic pet? Should I
> > look at getting a pair of tetras or something else instead?
>
> Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Koi-Lo wrote:

<<> Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
> much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?>>>


Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??
Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.
The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.
Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

To the original poster:

NEVER use those feeder blocks. They contain mostly plaster. This screws
up the water chemistry of your tank. They should really be taken off
the market, seeing how much harm they cause a tank.
It's perfectly fine to leave a fish without food over the weekend. Do
not over feed before leaving work on Fridays either. You'll only foul
the water quality.
And yes..you heard correct. Fasting a fish for a day a week is a good
thing.
Many seasoned aquarists fast their fish once weekly. It gives the
fish's body time to clean out and not get backed up.

As for the Goldfish in a 3g tank...not going to happen for much longer.
You have an infant fish. Put your hands 12" and then 16" aprt. That's
how large that fish can grow.
Goldies put out much more waste than the average community type fish
and you will need to do extra water changes as well.
Do not add any other types of fish to a Goldie tank, as they are not
compatible. Only Goldies should go with Goldies and you need to tank
space to do so.
For the 3g Eclipse (I love these and have 2 of them, and recommend them
all the time for Betta keepers) the Goldie cannot live it for much
longer and you'll either have to buy a 20g or larger tank for it, or
exchange it for something that can survive in a small tank.
A single male Betta would be wonderful (of course I would suggest such
a fish, as I'm a Betta breeder lol), b ut other fish such as 6 Neon
tetras, or a trio of fancy Guppies (get all males or you'll be overun
with babies), something that stays around an 1" - 1 1/2" long and has a
thin body mass, or somthing that can be kept alone, such as a male
Betta or Paradise Gourami.
Other than that there's not really much you can house in a 3g in
numbers.
Tetras are schooling fish and most grow too large to have a small
school in a 3g tank.
The Neons stay pretty small, so you could get away with a small school
of them.
Tiger Barbs get too large (body mass, not legnth) and need to be in
schools of 6 or more. So they're out too.
The odd behavior of your fish is either due to poor water conditions
(IE having a feeder block over the weekend in there or simply from the
goldie putting out more waste than you are removing with water
changes), or disease. My bet is on the water quality though.
Please do some research before buying a fish.
They don't all have the same needs and you cannot use that old,
outdated, useless "rule" about one inch of fish per gallon. That only
applies to 1-1 1/2" slim bodied fish..and no others in the hobby.
Some fish need territories, some have more body mass and need more
space than other fish of the same size, etc. There are so many reasons
why that old rule is a myth and has no place in this hobby anymore.
You are going to realize that there is so much bad info out there and
much of it coming from pet shop employees. = O
There are some wonderful shops out there with knowledgeable people
working in them, but they are sadly rare now a days. (NetMax's store
obviously not included in the bad ones). = ) He's a rare gem.
So go into a shop armed with knowledge before you go. Know the animal
you are thinking about before buying it. That way in the future you
won't run into the type of trouble that you are now in.
Don't get me wrong...you have a little time to figure out what to do
(water changes not included! Do them weekly), but not that long. It's
already 1 1/2".

[dc]

"Koi-lo" > wrote in
:

> I see. I was just wondering if these products were screwing up the
> nitrogen cycle.

It wouldn't surprise me, but an un-circulated bowl doesn't sound like the
most favorable environment for highly aerobic nitrifying bacteria to form
anyway.

My experience with products like Ammo-Lock is that they may temporarily
prevent sudden death from toxic shock, but they only prolong cause of the
problem. I only use it to temporarily treat fish that have been
transported long distances while acclimatizing them to a clean and healthy
environment.

There other detoxifying products out there that do not appear to have any
negative effect on the nitrogen cycle at all, the tap water conditioner
Prime made by Seachem is a good example of that.

But I think the best solution to the original poster's problem is to
increase the frequency of his water changes to half the bowl twice a week
and decrease feeding to every other day until he can add a proper
functional filter to it. Something that small might be able to get by with
a bubbler and a UGF for one very small goldfish. When the g-fish grows he
will certainly need a new home though.

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
\>> Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
\>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> <<> Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
> tank is
>> much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?>>>
>
> Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
> AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
> to have to buy another larger tank later on??

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

> Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
> Goldfish.

See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you have to
realize.

> The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
> it's self with no other tank mates.

That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty large
and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
fine for awhile.

> Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
> in Goldfish.

Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more than
a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[IDzine01]

IMO, AmQuel+ is one of the best dechlorinators on the market and THE
best for uncycled tanks like Ians. I would continue to use it. It's
meant to be used in conjunction with Kordon's NovAqua though. You'll
want to use them together.

-Christie

[Koi-lo]

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> IMO, AmQuel+ is one of the best dechlorinators on the market and THE
> best for uncycled tanks like Ians. I would continue to use it. It's
> meant to be used in conjunction with Kordon's NovAqua though. You'll
> want to use them together.
=======================
I have so many tanks, pools, tubs and two ponds that we buy Sodium
Thiosulfate by the 10 lb container and make our own dechlor'. Fortunately
we only have chlorine in our water, nothing else. I seed new pools and
tanks from old. All I add is KoiZyme for both koi and goldfish to help
prevent an ulcer outbreak.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> \>> Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
> \>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> > Koi-Lo wrote:
> >
> > <<> Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
> > tank is
> >> much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?>>>
> >
> > Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
> > AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
> > to have to buy another larger tank later on??
>
> Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the money
> for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
> the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
> to the fish by then. :-)
>
> > Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
> > Goldfish.
>
> See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you have to
> realize.
>
> > The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
> > it's self with no other tank mates.
>
> That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty large
> and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
> fine for awhile.
>
> > Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
> > in Goldfish.
>
> Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more than
> a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.
>
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> Troll Information:
> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

<<> Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
the money
> for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
> the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
> to the fish by then. :-)>>>

Hmm.....
So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
first...and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
weren't told this in the first place?
Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
keeper.
Tell them the truth in the first place!
As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
their large tank.
I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
they weren't told the right info in the first place...when they could
have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
had the right set up in the first place.
Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
bullcrap!
If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.
If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...add to
it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
set up in the near future. At least that gives them the chance to buy
the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
this tank is only temporary.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.

[Tynk]

Tynk wrote:
> Koi-lo wrote:
> > "Tynk" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > > Koi-lo wrote:
> > >> > wrote in message
> > >> ups.com...
> > \>> Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
> > \>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> > >
> > > Koi-Lo wrote:
> > >
> > > <<> Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
> > > tank is
> > >> much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?>>>
> > >
> > > Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
> > > AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
> > > to have to buy another larger tank later on??
> >
> > Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the money
> > for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
> > the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
> > to the fish by then. :-)
> >
> > > Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
> > > Goldfish.
> >
> > See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you haveto
> > realize.
> >
> > > The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
> > > it's self with no other tank mates.
> >
> > That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty large
> > and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
> > fine for awhile.
> >
> > > Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
> > > in Goldfish.
> >
> > Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more than
> > a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.
> >
> > --
> > Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> > Aquariums since 1952
> > My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> > http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> > Troll Information:
> > http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> > ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> <<> Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
> the money
> > for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
> > the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
> > to the fish by then. :-)>>>
>
> Hmm.....
> So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
> first...and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
> to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
> weren't told this in the first place?
> Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
> keeper.
> Tell them the truth in the first place!
> As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
> tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
> kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
> their large tank.
> I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
> fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
> they weren't told the right info in the first place...when they could
> have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
> another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
> leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
> had the right set up in the first place.
> Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
> bullcrap!
> If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
> at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.
> If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...add to
> it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
> set up in the near future. At least that gives them the chance to buy
> the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
> this tank is only temporary.
> I cannot understand why don't ge that.
> I cannot understand why don't ge that.
That was supposed to be:
I cannot understand why you don't get that.

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> \>> Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
> \>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> > Koi-Lo wrote:
> >
> > <<> Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
> > tank is
> >> much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?>>>
> >
> > Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
> > AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
> > to have to buy another larger tank later on??
>
> Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the
> money
> for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
> the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're
> attached
> to the fish by then. :-)
>
> > Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
> > Goldfish.
>
> See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you have to
> realize.
>
> > The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
> > it's self with no other tank mates.
>
> That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty
> large
> and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
> fine for awhile.
>
> > Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
> > in Goldfish.
>
> Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more
> than
> a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.
================
<<> Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
the money
> for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
> the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're
> attached
> to the fish by then. :-)>>>

Hmm.....
So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
first...

No, it's better to start them off slowly and let them build up to larger
tanks like most of us do - especially considering the feeder will probably
not live long enough to outgrow the 10g tank. You can't seem to grasp the
fact that people who spend 20 cents on a fish in many cases can't even
afford a 10g tank and all it's trappings, or would not want to if they
could.

and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
weren't told this in the first place?

See above.

Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
keeper.

Sorry. To me it isn't wrong as you can tell them at the time they will
probably need a larger tank if the fish survives with good care and feeding
as I would. I didn't say to LIE to them and tell them a GF will not outgrow
a 10g tank - and many don't. To expect a person to buy a .20 fish then
spend another $80 on a 20g tank is absurd.

Tell them the truth in the first place!

See above.

As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
their large tank.

WOW!!! Big news huh? You can't seem to grasp that these fish will rarely
be alive in a year simply because of poor care and ignorance on the owners
part, or just lack of interest after a few weeks or months. When the
novelty wears off bye bye fish. I've seen it repeatedly over the years.

I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
they weren't told the right info in the first place...

Hundreds of 20 cent fish buyers who bought 10g tanks???? LOL!!! A 10g is
fine to start with (if you can even get them to spend that much on a
feeder) so your story doesn't hold water if you'll pardon my pun. Most
people who buy a .20 fish are not dedicated fish people and will not spend
$80 on a set-up for the .20 fish. I worked in several stores over the years
and know this for a fact. Besides it doesn't matter what I say you will
find some reason to be nasty and disagree. JUST about everyone I knew who
bought a .20 goldfish or betta soon lost interest and either gave the fish
away or neglect killed it. They didn't have it long enough to outgrow a 10g
tank.

when they could
have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
had the right set up in the first place.

See above.

Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
bullcrap!

Stop putting words in my mouth to show off. You're not impressing anyone.
You tell them if the fish lives it *MAY* outgrow the tank. Many GF do not.

If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.

It is correct.

If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...

Telling them they MUST BUY a 20g tank for a .20 feeder is absurd. That as
absurd as telling people they need a 1 or 2g tank for a betta when most are
kept in small bowls. So you're telling them only PART of the truth so don't
sling mulm at me!

add to
it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
set up in the near future.

They will? Since when to we have the RIGHT to dictate to someone else what
they will have to do in the future? The chance the feeder will even be
alive in a few week is almost nil that's what I never coerced them to buy an
$80+ set-up (the stands alone can be another $80) for their .20 fish. Even
the people who buy my GF are told to start small with a 10g tank and see if
they like fish keeping before spending a lot of money. I tell them if this
fish lives and thrives you will need to purchase a 20 or 30L down the road
and leave it up to them to decide what to spend and do.

At least that gives them the chance to buy
the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
this tank is only temporary.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.

I can't understand why you can't grasp that someone spending .20 for a
feeder fish will *NOT* cough up another $80 to $160 for a set-up for the
fish, especially when the fish is for a child. In most cases of feeders it
was! I was happy to see them buy the 10g rather than a bowl that meant
certain death.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
> > "Tynk" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > > Koi-lo wrote:
> > >> > wrote in message
> > >> ups.com...
> > \>> Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
> > \>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> > >
> > > Koi-Lo wrote:
> > >
> > > <<> Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
> > > tank is
> > >> much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?>>>
> > >
> > > Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
> > > AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
> > > to have to buy another larger tank later on??
> >
> > Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the
> > money
> > for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
> > the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're
> > attached
> > to the fish by then. :-)
> >
> > > Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
> > > Goldfish.
> >
> > See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you haveto
> > realize.
> >
> > > The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
> > > it's self with no other tank mates.
> >
> > That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty
> > large
> > and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
> > fine for awhile.
> >
> > > Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
> > > in Goldfish.
> >
> > Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more
> > than
> > a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.
> ================
> <<> Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
> the money
> > for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
> > the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're
> > attached
> > to the fish by then. :-)>>>
>
> Hmm.....
> So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
> first...
>
> No, it's better to start them off slowly and let them build up to larger
> tanks like most of us do - especially considering the feeder will probably
> not live long enough to outgrow the 10g tank. You can't seem to grasp the
> fact that people who spend 20 cents on a fish in many cases can't even
> afford a 10g tank and all it's trappings, or would not want to if they
> could.
>
> and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
> to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
> weren't told this in the first place?
>
> See above.
>
> Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
> keeper.
>
> Sorry. To me it isn't wrong as you can tell them at the time they will
> probably need a larger tank if the fish survives with good care and feeding
> as I would. I didn't say to LIE to them and tell them a GF will not outgrow
> a 10g tank - and many don't. To expect a person to buy a .20 fish then
> spend another $80 on a 20g tank is absurd.
>
> Tell them the truth in the first place!
>
> See above.
>
> As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
> tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
> kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
> their large tank.
>
> WOW!!! Big news huh? You can't seem to grasp that these fish will rarely
> be alive in a year simply because of poor care and ignorance on the owners
> part, or just lack of interest after a few weeks or months. When the
> novelty wears off bye bye fish. I've seen it repeatedly over the years.
>
> I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
> fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
> they weren't told the right info in the first place...
>
> Hundreds of 20 cent fish buyers who bought 10g tanks???? LOL!!! A 10g is
> fine to start with (if you can even get them to spend that much on a
> feeder) so your story doesn't hold water if you'll pardon my pun. Most
> people who buy a .20 fish are not dedicated fish people and will not spend
> $80 on a set-up for the .20 fish. I worked in several stores over the years
> and know this for a fact. Besides it doesn't matter what I say you will
> find some reason to be nasty and disagree. JUST about everyone I knew who
> bought a .20 goldfish or betta soon lost interest and either gave the fish
> away or neglect killed it. They didn't have it long enough to outgrow a 10g
> tank.
>
> when they could
> have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
> another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
> leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
> had the right set up in the first place.
>
> See above.
>
> Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
> bullcrap!
>
> Stop putting words in my mouth to show off. You're not impressing anyone.
> You tell them if the fish lives it *MAY* outgrow the tank. Many GF do not.
>
> If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
> at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.
>
> It is correct.
>
> If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...
>
> Telling them they MUST BUY a 20g tank for a .20 feeder is absurd. That as
> absurd as telling people they need a 1 or 2g tank for a betta when most are
> kept in small bowls. So you're telling them only PART of the truth so don't
> sling mulm at me!
>
> add to
> it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
> set up in the near future.
>
> They will? Since when to we have the RIGHT to dictate to someone else what
> they will have to do in the future? The chance the feeder will even be
> alive in a few week is almost nil that's what I never coerced them to buyan
> $80+ set-up (the stands alone can be another $80) for their .20 fish. Even
> the people who buy my GF are told to start small with a 10g tank and see if
> they like fish keeping before spending a lot of money. I tell them if this
> fish lives and thrives you will need to purchase a 20 or 30L down the road
> and leave it up to them to decide what to spend and do.
>
> At least that gives them the chance to buy
> the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
> this tank is only temporary.
> I cannot understand why don't ge that.
>
> I can't understand why you can't grasp that someone spending .20 for a
> feeder fish will *NOT* cough up another $80 to $160 for a set-up for the
> fish, especially when the fish is for a child. In most cases of feeders it
> was! I was happy to see them buy the 10g rather than a bowl that meant
> certain death.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> Troll Information:
> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

You missed the entire point of telling them the whole truth first.

Koi-Lo wrote:

<<Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g tank
is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?>>

You're telling a person who has a common Goldie, which reach between
14-16" long, have good sized body mass, to get a 10g tank. You made no
mention what so ever about needing a larger in the near future.
Hence the point of my problem with what you told them.
Why not tell them the entire truth?
You seem to have an issue with somebody paying $.20 for a Goldie. Some
of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
for them properly.
It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
treatment and proper housing!!
This is something you don't agree with.
Same with your treatment of Bettas. It doesn't matter how many idiots
house them in tiny bowls, it doesn't make it right for that fish!!
It cruel for them to be kept in such tiny bowls.
It's deadly to house a Goldfish in something too small. (either death
by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.
That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.
It's not. It's cruel treatment.
It makes no difference what the poor thing cost.

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...

You're telling a person who has a common Goldie, which reach between
14-16" long, have good sized body mass, to get a 10g tank. You made no
mention what so ever about needing a larger in the near future.
Hence the point of my problem with what you told them.
Why not tell them the entire truth?

Why keep harassing me over it? I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long. Perhaps
one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank.

You seem to have an issue with somebody paying $.20 for a Goldie.

You seem to have an issue on what people should tell others. For all I
care they can buy a 150g tank for a 10 cent feeder. That's their decision
to make. Not mine and not yours.

Some
of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
for them properly.

Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision. When I
tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the person say, "Oh
Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."

It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
treatment and proper housing!!
This is something you don't agree with.

No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You think
everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say here,.... and
that's not going to happen.

Same with your treatment of Bettas. It doesn't matter how many idiots
house them in tiny bowls, it doesn't make it right for that fish!!

No one said it did. Once the person buys the fish you and I have nothing to
say about what they do with it. They will do as they please.

It cruel for them to be kept in such tiny bowls.
It's deadly to house a Goldfish in something too small.

Which is a complete LIE since. Maybe you need to expend you energy getting
laws passed which dictate what size tank people must purchase before they
buy even 10 cent fish. You wont change the world here.

(either death
by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.

Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.

That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.

No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel you're
right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.

It's not. It's cruel treatment.

Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must also
purchase a 20g or 30g tank.

It makes no difference what the poor thing cost.

Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be breeding
fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things" act on me.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> You're telling a person who has a common Goldie, which reach between
> 14-16" long, have good sized body mass, to get a 10g tank. You made no
> mention what so ever about needing a larger in the near future.
> Hence the point of my problem with what you told them.
> Why not tell them the entire truth?
>
> Why keep harassing me over it? I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
> reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long. Perhaps
> one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank.
>
> You seem to have an issue with somebody paying $.20 for a Goldie.
>
> You seem to have an issue on what people should tell others. For all I
> care they can buy a 150g tank for a 10 cent feeder. That's their decision
> to make. Not mine and not yours.
>
> Some
> of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
> for them properly.
>
> Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision. When I
> tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the person say, "Oh
> Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."
>
> It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
> treatment and proper housing!!
> This is something you don't agree with.
>
> No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You think
> everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say here,.... and
> that's not going to happen.
>
> Same with your treatment of Bettas. It doesn't matter how many idiots
> house them in tiny bowls, it doesn't make it right for that fish!!
>
> No one said it did. Once the person buys the fish you and I have nothing to
> say about what they do with it. They will do as they please.
>
> It cruel for them to be kept in such tiny bowls.
> It's deadly to house a Goldfish in something too small.
>
> Which is a complete LIE since. Maybe you need to expend you energy getting
> laws passed which dictate what size tank people must purchase before they
> buy even 10 cent fish. You wont change the world here.
>
> (either death
> by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.
>
> Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.
>
> That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
> organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
> wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.
>
> No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel you're
> right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.
>
> It's not. It's cruel treatment.
>
> Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must also
> purchase a 20g or 30g tank.
>
> It makes no difference what the poor thing cost.
>
> Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be breeding
> fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things" act on me.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> Troll Information:
> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
> reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long. Perhaps
> one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank

And why is that?
Because of people telling them bad, bogus, false or misleading
information about their proper care.

> It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
> treatment and proper housing!!
> This is something you don't agree with.
>
> No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You think
> everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say here,.... and
> that's not going to happen.

I don't think everyone should do as I say. That's just silly.
I do however, have a problem with people giving out bad or bogus
information, or half truths when it comes to the proper care of fish.
You keep missing that point. Anyone can do the research and see what
I'm saying is the truth.
It's important that you tell them the entire truth right off the bat,
not half the proper care, but all of it.

> Some
> of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
> for them properly.
>
> Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision. When I
> tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the person say, "Oh
> Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."

Of course they're going to do what they want to do anyway.
However, if more people actually told them the proper care and housing
in the FIRST PLACE there wouldn't be so many Goldfish, as well as other
species, being kept in such horrible conditions.

You didn't tell the original poster that they'll need a much larger
tank than a 10g soon.
Don't you think they might have wanted to know that in the first place?
Of course they would!!
I've heard it too many times....well why didn't they tell me that when
I bought the thing.
In a way, you are adding to the problem.
Now if this person took your advice and bought the Goldie a 10g, then
finds out it was really too small of a tank in the first place and now
they've got to go out and buy another entire set up, you don't think
that's going to make them ticked off, or worse....ticked off and say
forget it and leave the poor thing to die from being stunted.
That's why telling people only some of the tank requirments isn't
right.
I guess that's lost on you.

>
> It cruel for them to be kept in such tiny bowls.
> It's deadly to house a Goldfish in something too small.
>
> Which is a complete LIE since. Maybe you need to expend you energy getting
> laws passed which dictate what size tank people must purchase before they
> buy even 10 cent fish. You wont change the world here.
>
> (either death
> by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.
>
> Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.

Well duh. Anyone knows that can happen with a polluted tank, but it's
surely not going to stunt a goldie living in a 120g. That was just a
silly, hot headed response which meant nothing. You cannot compare a
Goldie living in a 3g tank vs. a 120g. Ridiculous.

Do you undestand what happens to a fish that has been stunted because
it's been stuffed into a tank that's way too small, no matter much
water is changed weekly?

To say that stunting a fish isn't deadly, that it's a complete lie, is
also ridiculous.
I hope you will research the subject and learn more about it.
If a fish's growth is stunted, it dies much earlier than it's normal
lifespan. That is *deadly*.
You claim this is a lie. There is proof on the subject. Please,
research this so that you can understand what actually happens to them.
They don't just stay smaller.
Stunting will eventually kill them.

>
> That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
> organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
> wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.
>
> No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel you're
> right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.

Explain how I'm putting words into somebody's mouth? This enitre
statement made no sense in regard to what you are replying to.

> It's not. It's cruel treatment.
>
> Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must also
> purchase a 20g or 30g tank.

You know what...there should be laws regarding proper care for every
animal, not just 4 legged animals.

> Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be breeding
> fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things" act on me.

Sweetie...You know nothing of my breeding program.
I don't breed for profit, for quantity, or just because I have a male
and female.
You've never asked me how often I breed, or know anything about my
breeding program.
Again...ridiculous to pounce on me for it.
I haven't bred in over 9 yrs because 1...either the stock wasn't worthy
to breed, but were worthy to keep as pets, or 2. the *worthy* pair
didn't spawn and I refuse to spawn just to spawn them. It's about
fixing a line, or making it better, or simply because the line is so
worthy of breeding.
Several yrs back I had 4 White Opaques from Bonnie McKinnley's line.
Gorgeous fish.
However, out of the 2 pairs only 1 m & f were worthy of spawning. The
male did not have a clue and refused to spawn. I wanted so badly to
have a White Opaque line going, but I do have a set of breeding ethics
that I stand by firmly.
The shops I sold to yrs back (2 different ones) sold them to folks that
had the proper set ups. Now this was before they became so popular and
all the Betta/vase/peaceLily disaster started. So people back then
actually kept them properly.
You couldn't find an Ivy bowl in a pet shop to save your life!
15 + or - yrs ago their popularity increased (as well as the
mispronunciation of Betta to "bait-uh") and so did the poor conditions
for them. Thanks mainly to the chain stores, and then the local stores
that opened that just wanted to make more money instead of actually
being truthful to hobbyists.
Then came the idiot with the Betta and peace Lily in a vase and told
people that they eat algae off the roots of the Lily. Duh. These fish
are carnivores. Do you think I sat by and did nothing?
Absolutely NOT. I have worked long and hard for yrs about getting the
proper care of these fish out there, as well as other fish, and you
aren't going to say anything to sway me not to.
I will correct bogus information every time I see it.
If you don't want me correcting something that you've said that's
incorrect, or even harmful to a fish, then don't say it. Pretty simple.
If somebody else corrects you it's fine..no worries....yet when I do
you have a flaming fit and call me a liar.
Why don't you simply filter me out. That way you won't have to get your
panties in a bunch when I do. = )

[NetMax]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> "Tynk" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
<snip>

>...That way you won't have to get your
> panties in a bunch when I do. = )

While I personally think it's awesome how passionate you both are about
the fish's welfare, the image of the two of you with your panties in a
bunch was just too much for me to handle ;~).

--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tynk]

NetMax wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-lo wrote:
> >> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> <snip>
>
> >...That way you won't have to get your
> > panties in a bunch when I do. = )
>
> While I personally think it's awesome how passionate you both are about
> the fish's welfare, the image of the two of you with your panties in a
> bunch was just too much for me to handle ;~).
>
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
> While I personally think it's awesome how passionate you both are about
> the fish's welfare, the image of the two of you with your panties in a
> bunch was just too much for me to handle ;~).

Who said i wear panites?
ROFL
Just kidding. Or am I? = )~

[Tynk]

Koi-Lo....I responded to your post in the airation thread about your
bettas in larger tanks. Yea!!!
I'm so happy I'm doing the Betta wigglebutt dance.

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
>> reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long.
>> Perhaps
>> one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank
>
> And why is that?
> Because of people telling them bad, bogus, false or misleading
> information about their proper care.

Have laws passed then forcing everyone to do as YOU say they should do.

>> It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
>> treatment and proper housing!!
>> This is something you don't agree with.

>> No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You think
>> everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say here,.... and
>> that's not going to happen.

> I don't think everyone should do as I say. That's just silly.

Oh really, yet you BEAT it death.

> I do however, have a problem with people giving out bad or bogus
> information,

So do I. SURPRISE!!!!

or half truths when it comes to the proper care of fish.
> You keep missing that point.

You miss the point that you are not GOD and you have no idea what people
will do with a fish once they bring it home no matter how large the tank
someone sold them.

Anyone can do the research and see what
> I'm saying is the truth.

Yawn..........

> It's important that you tell them the entire truth right off the bat,
> not half the proper care, but all of it.

Telling them the fish can reach a foot long is a half truth? Anyone who
comes here can SEE for themselves how large GF can get. There is nothing
wrong with starting with a 10g for a small GF. Most of us started with a 5
or 10 for our first goldfish. I'd rather see them in that than a bowl =
certain death.

>
>> Some
>> of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
>> for them properly.
>>
>> Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision. When I
>> tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the person say, "Oh
>> Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."

> Of course they're going to do what they want to do anyway.
> However, if more people actually told them the proper care and housing
> in the FIRST PLACE there wouldn't be so many Goldfish, as well as other
> species, being kept in such horrible conditions.

Like those small ivy bowls most of the bettes being bred and sold are doomed
to live in - right?

> You didn't tell the original poster that they'll need a much larger
> tank than a 10g soon.

Then you tell them. No one's stopping you.

> Don't you think they might have wanted to know that in the first place?
> Of course they would!!

Now you're a mind reader and know what people are thinking?

> I've heard it too many times....well why didn't they tell me that when
> I bought the thing.

They know a fish getting 12" long if it survives will necessitate a larger
tank. You insult people's intelligence. Give people some credit for having
some common sense.

> In a way, you are adding to the problem.

In a way you are as well so we're even..........

> Now if this person took your advice and bought the Goldie a 10g, then
> finds out it was really too small of a tank in the first place and now
> they've got to go out and buy another entire set up, you don't think
> that's going to make them ticked off, or worse....

When they were told a fish can get 12" long they could have decided to get
the larger tank to begin with. You must live in a neighborhood of
millionaires when people will whip out up to $180 for a tank set-up for a
goldfish.

ticked off and say
> forget it and leave the poor thing to die from being stunted.

Why don't you get honest for 2 minutes - if even one of those feeders (or
even a more expensive GF) survives more than a few weeks it's a miracle.
Even GF people pay $25, $50 for are often left to languish after the novelty
wears off. I don't hear you whining about those left behind to be fed to
snakes, frogs and Oscars. Do you hound the Managers of the stores where you
live on their welfare? Better in a 10g tank in someone's home where someone
may give it some care then being shredded and eaten by some pet predator or
to die of filth and overcrowding at the pet store. When the fish gets
larger common sense will tell a person with even an average IQ that they
need to get a lager tank or give the fish away. By then they will know if
this hobby is for them or not. When I worked in the pet shop in town people
would bring in unwanted fish all the time and give them to us. Sometimes
they'd even offer us the tank for free to "give to some poor person's
child."

> That's why telling people only some of the tank requirments isn't
> right.
> I guess that's lost on you.

Everything is lost on you.

>> (either death
>> by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.
>>
>> Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.

> Well duh. Anyone knows that can happen with a polluted tank, but it's
> surely not going to stunt a goldie living in a 120g.

It will just KILL him or her after some days or weeks of suffering.......

That was just a
> silly, hot headed response which meant nothing. You cannot compare a
> Goldie living in a 3g tank vs. a 120g. Ridiculous.

What 3g tank?

> Do you undestand what happens to a fish that has been stunted because
> it's been stuffed into a tank that's way too small, no matter much
> water is changed weekly?

Do you? How does one *STUFF* a 2 to 3" fish into a 10g tank? Is your 10g
tanks only 4" by 4" in size?

> To say that stunting a fish isn't deadly, that it's a complete lie, is
> also ridiculous.

You said, not me! Don't put words in other people's mouths because they
disagree with you.

> I hope you will research the subject and learn more about it.

That's what you need to do. The net is full of info on GF.

> If a fish's growth is stunted, it dies much earlier than it's normal
> lifespan. That is *deadly*.
> You claim this is a lie. There is proof on the subject.
Please,
> research this so that you can understand what actually happens to them.
> They don't just stay smaller.
> Stunting will eventually kill them.

So you mean they should keep the GF in the 10g tank forever until they stunt
it? You mean they'd be too stupid to realize the tank is too small? That
only YOU have enough intelligence to see a bigger tank is needed? Everyone
else is an idiot?

>> That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
>> organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
>> wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.

>> No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel you're
>> right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.

> Explain how I'm putting words into somebody's mouth?

You're using the old BS technique of telling ME that I'm saying as thought
you were GOD and can read minds.

This enitre
> statement made no sense in regard to what you are replying to.
>> It's not. It's cruel treatment.

>> Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must also
>> purchase a 20g or 30g tank.

> You know what...there should be laws regarding proper care for every
> animal, not just 4 legged animals.

Proper care by who's standards? Better a well loved young GF in a 10g rank
than a neglected one in a 20g tank. If it lives give others the credit of
having some sense that they'll either give it away or get another tank.

>> Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be breeding
>> fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things" act on me.

> Sweetie...You know nothing of my breeding program.
> I don't breed for profit, for quantity, or just because I have a male
> and female.
> You've never asked me how often I breed, or know anything about my
> breeding program.
> Again...ridiculous to pounce on me for it.

To you everyone is ridiculous but yourself. You're really stuck on yourself
for some reason.

> I haven't bred in over 9 yrs because 1...either the stock wasn't worthy
> to breed, but were worthy to keep as pets, or 2. the *worthy* pair
> didn't spawn and I refuse to spawn just to spawn them.

Do you want a pat on the back for that?

It's about
> fixing a line, or making it better, or simply because the line is so
> worthy of breeding.
> Several yrs back I had 4 White Opaques from Bonnie McKinnley's line.
> Gorgeous fish.
> However, out of the 2 pairs only 1 m & f were worthy of spawning. The
> male did not have a clue and refused to spawn. I wanted so badly to
> have a White Opaque line going, but I do have a set of breeding ethics
> that I stand by firmly.

Well good for you.

> The shops I sold to yrs back (2 different ones) sold them to folks that
> had the proper set ups.

And next you'll claim they paid someone to check out everyone's setup at
their homes - to sell them a $3 to $5 fish.

Now this was before they became so popular and
> all the Betta/vase/peaceLily disaster started. So people back then
> actually kept them properly.

I never knew any store to send an employee to someone's home to check out
their set-ups before selling them fish.

> You couldn't find an Ivy bowl in a pet shop to save your life!
> 15 + or - yrs ago their popularity increased (as well as the
> mispronunciation of Betta to "bait-uh") and so did the poor conditions
> for them. Thanks mainly to the chain stores, and then the local stores
> that opened that just wanted to make more money instead of actually
> being truthful to hobbyists.
> Then came the idiot with the Betta and peace Lily in a vase and told
> people that they eat algae off the roots of the Lily. Duh. These fish
> are carnivores. Do you think I sat by and did nothing?

I'm sure you went before congress and had it all stopped. No more batta
abuse. Do the goldfish next. Demand the person buy a 20g tank set-up for
any GF they're sold. Outlaw bowls and anything under 20g tanks.... ;-)
Keeping in mind the person usually has to buy a stand as well because of the
WEIGHT of a 20g tank. See how many people pull out their $150 to $180 for a
20g tank.

> Absolutely NOT. I have worked long and hard for yrs about getting the
> proper care of these fish out there, as well as other fish, and you
> aren't going to say anything to sway me not to.

You must be paranoid!!!! I couldn't care less what you tell people. Tell
them all GF need 50 each for all I care. You wont be hurting my business
any.

> I will correct bogus information every time I see it.

What's BOGUS to you is not BOGUS to someone else. Right now I have 4
*small* lionheads in a 10g tank with plants that are thriving. They're well
fed and get a 50% water change weekly. They'll be in there for at least
another 3 to 4 months. This is a crime of some kind?

> If you don't want me correcting something that you've said that's
> incorrect, or even harmful to a fish, then don't say it. Pretty simple.

Don't tell others what to do or say. You're not the moderator here. MOST
people I have known start with the 10g tank because it's called a starter
tank. It's affordable. It gives them a chance to see if the hobby is for
them without a lot of money lost if it isn't. MOST of them realize no
matter what they buy other than a few guppies or tetras will need a larger
tank in the future. You need to deal with REALITY, not your fantasies of
what you think is best for everyone and every fish.

> If somebody else corrects you it's fine..no worries....yet when I do
> you have a flaming fit and call me a liar.

Maybe it's your rotten attitude and know-it-all approach, ya think? If a
10g gets someone started in a hobby I love I will keep recommending it, with
or without YOUR approval. I give people credit for having some sense which
you do not. I always offer to take the fish back if they change their minds
or when it outgrows the 10g and they decide the hobby isn't for them. It
works for me, the fish and those who purchase them.

> Why don't you simply filter me out. That way you won't have to get your
> panties in a bunch when I do. = )

You aren't getting my panties in a bunch. It's winter and I'm indoors
anyway....... :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Koi-lo wrote:
>>> "Tynk" > wrote in message
>>> oups.com...
> <snip>
>
>>...That way you won't have to get your
>> panties in a bunch when I do. = )
>
> While I personally think it's awesome how passionate you both are about
> the fish's welfare, the image of the two of you with your panties in a
> bunch was just too much for me to handle ;~).
=========================
LOL!!! :-D
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Koi-Lo....I responded to your post in the airation thread about your
> bettas in larger tanks. Yea!!!
> I'm so happy I'm doing the Betta wigglebutt dance.
===================================
Thanks.... I figured you'd be happy to see they were moved into larger
quarters. BTW, that old decrepit blue one is still hanging on.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Tynk]

Koi-lo wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
> >> reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long.
> >> Perhaps
> >> one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank
> >
> > And why is that?
> > Because of people telling them bad, bogus, false or misleading
> > information about their proper care.
>
> Have laws passed then forcing everyone to do as YOU say they should do.
>
> >> It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
> >> treatment and proper housing!!
> >> This is something you don't agree with.
>
> >> No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You think
> >> everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say here,.... and
> >> that's not going to happen.
>
> > I don't think everyone should do as I say. That's just silly.
>
> Oh really, yet you BEAT it death.
>
> > I do however, have a problem with people giving out bad or bogus
> > information,
>
> So do I. SURPRISE!!!!
>
> or half truths when it comes to the proper care of fish.
> > You keep missing that point.
>
> You miss the point that you are not GOD and you have no idea what people
> will do with a fish once they bring it home no matter how large the tank
> someone sold them.
>
> Anyone can do the research and see what
> > I'm saying is the truth.
>
> Yawn..........
>
> > It's important that you tell them the entire truth right off the bat,
> > not half the proper care, but all of it.
>
> Telling them the fish can reach a foot long is a half truth? Anyone who
> comes here can SEE for themselves how large GF can get. There is nothing
> wrong with starting with a 10g for a small GF. Most of us started with a 5
> or 10 for our first goldfish. I'd rather see them in that than a bowl =
> certain death.
>
> >
> >> Some
> >> of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
> >> for them properly.
> >>
> >> Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision. When I
> >> tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the person say, "Oh
> >> Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."
>
> > Of course they're going to do what they want to do anyway.
> > However, if more people actually told them the proper care and housing
> > in the FIRST PLACE there wouldn't be so many Goldfish, as well as other
> > species, being kept in such horrible conditions.
>
> Like those small ivy bowls most of the bettes being bred and sold are doomed
> to live in - right?
>
> > You didn't tell the original poster that they'll need a much larger
> > tank than a 10g soon.
>
> Then you tell them. No one's stopping you.
>
> > Don't you think they might have wanted to know that in the first place?
> > Of course they would!!
>
> Now you're a mind reader and know what people are thinking?
>
> > I've heard it too many times....well why didn't they tell me that when
> > I bought the thing.
>
> They know a fish getting 12" long if it survives will necessitate a larger
> tank. You insult people's intelligence. Give people some credit for having
> some common sense.
>
> > In a way, you are adding to the problem.
>
> In a way you are as well so we're even..........
>
> > Now if this person took your advice and bought the Goldie a 10g, then
> > finds out it was really too small of a tank in the first place and now
> > they've got to go out and buy another entire set up, you don't think
> > that's going to make them ticked off, or worse....
>
> When they were told a fish can get 12" long they could have decided to get
> the larger tank to begin with. You must live in a neighborhood of
> millionaires when people will whip out up to $180 for a tank set-up for a
> goldfish.
>
> ticked off and say
> > forget it and leave the poor thing to die from being stunted.
>
> Why don't you get honest for 2 minutes - if even one of those feeders (or
> even a more expensive GF) survives more than a few weeks it's a miracle.
> Even GF people pay $25, $50 for are often left to languish after the novelty
> wears off. I don't hear you whining about those left behind to be fed to
> snakes, frogs and Oscars. Do you hound the Managers of the stores where you
> live on their welfare? Better in a 10g tank in someone's home where someone
> may give it some care then being shredded and eaten by some pet predator or
> to die of filth and overcrowding at the pet store. When the fish gets
> larger common sense will tell a person with even an average IQ that they
> need to get a lager tank or give the fish away. By then they will know if
> this hobby is for them or not. When I worked in the pet shop in town people
> would bring in unwanted fish all the time and give them to us. Sometimes
> they'd even offer us the tank for free to "give to some poor person's
> child."
>
> > That's why telling people only some of the tank requirments isn't
> > right.
> > I guess that's lost on you.
>
> Everything is lost on you.
>
> >> (either death
> >> by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.
> >>
> >> Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.
>
> > Well duh. Anyone knows that can happen with a polluted tank, but it's
> > surely not going to stunt a goldie living in a 120g.
>
> It will just KILL him or her after some days or weeks of suffering.......
>
> That was just a
> > silly, hot headed response which meant nothing. You cannot compare a
> > Goldie living in a 3g tank vs. a 120g. Ridiculous.
>
> What 3g tank?
>
> > Do you undestand what happens to a fish that has been stunted because
> > it's been stuffed into a tank that's way too small, no matter much
> > water is changed weekly?
>
> Do you? How does one *STUFF* a 2 to 3" fish into a 10g tank? Is your 10g
> tanks only 4" by 4" in size?
>
> > To say that stunting a fish isn't deadly, that it's a complete lie, is
> > also ridiculous.
>
> You said, not me! Don't put words in other people's mouths because they
> disagree with you.
>
> > I hope you will research the subject and learn more about it.
>
> That's what you need to do. The net is full of info on GF.
>
> > If a fish's growth is stunted, it dies much earlier than it's normal
> > lifespan. That is *deadly*.
> > You claim this is a lie. There is proof on the subject.
> Please,
> > research this so that you can understand what actually happens to them.
> > They don't just stay smaller.
> > Stunting will eventually kill them.
>
> So you mean they should keep the GF in the 10g tank forever until they stunt
> it? You mean they'd be too stupid to realize the tank is too small? That
> only YOU have enough intelligence to see a bigger tank is needed? Everyone
> else is an idiot?
>
> >> That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
> >> organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
> >> wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.
>
> >> No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel you're
> >> right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.
>
> > Explain how I'm putting words into somebody's mouth?
>
> You're using the old BS technique of telling ME that I'm saying as thought
> you were GOD and can read minds.
>
> This enitre
> > statement made no sense in regard to what you are replying to.
> >> It's not. It's cruel treatment.
>
> >> Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must also
> >> purchase a 20g or 30g tank.
>
> > You know what...there should be laws regarding proper care for every
> > animal, not just 4 legged animals.
>
> Proper care by who's standards? Better a well loved young GF in a 10g rank
> than a neglected one in a 20g tank. If it lives give others the credit of
> having some sense that they'll either give it away or get another tank.
>
> >> Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be breeding
> >> fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things" act on me.
>
> > Sweetie...You know nothing of my breeding program.
> > I don't breed for profit, for quantity, or just because I have a male
> > and female.
> > You've never asked me how often I breed, or know anything about my
> > breeding program.
> > Again...ridiculous to pounce on me for it.
>
> To you everyone is ridiculous but yourself. You're really stuck on yourself
> for some reason.
>
> > I haven't bred in over 9 yrs because 1...either the stock wasn't worthy
> > to breed, but were worthy to keep as pets, or 2. the *worthy* pair
> > didn't spawn and I refuse to spawn just to spawn them.
>
> Do you want a pat on the back for that?
>
> It's about
> > fixing a line, or making it better, or simply because the line is so
> > worthy of breeding.
> > Several yrs back I had 4 White Opaques from Bonnie McKinnley's line.
> > Gorgeous fish.
> > However, out of the 2 pairs only 1 m & f were worthy of spawning. The
> > male did not have a clue and refused to spawn. I wanted so badly to
> > have a White Opaque line going, but I do have a set of breeding ethics
> > that I stand by firmly.
>
> Well good for you.
>
> > The shops I sold to yrs back (2 different ones) sold them to folks that
> > had the proper set ups.
>
> And next you'll claim they paid someone to check out everyone's setup at
> their homes - to sell them a $3 to $5 fish.
>
> Now this was before they became so popular and
> > all the Betta/vase/peaceLily disaster started. So people back then
> > actually kept them properly.
>
> I never knew any store to send an employee to someone's home to check out
> their set-ups before selling them fish.
>
> > You couldn't find an Ivy bowl in a pet shop to save your life!
> > 15 + or - yrs ago their popularity increased (as well as the
> > mispronunciation of Betta to "bait-uh") and so did the poor conditions
> > for them. Thanks mainly to the chain stores, and then the local stores
> > that opened that just wanted to make more money instead of actually
> > being truthful to hobbyists.
> > Then came the idiot with the Betta and peace Lily in a vase and told
> > people that they eat algae off the roots of the Lily. Duh. These fish
> > are carnivores. Do you think I sat by and did nothing?
>
> I'm sure you went before congress and had it all stopped. No more batta
> abuse. Do the goldfish next. Demand the person buy a 20g tank set-up for
> any GF they're sold. Outlaw bowls and anything under 20g tanks.... ;-)
> Keeping in mind the person usually has to buy a stand as well because of the
> WEIGHT of a 20g tank. See how many people pull out their $150 to $180 for a
> 20g tank.
>
> > Absolutely NOT. I have worked long and hard for yrs about getting the
> > proper care of these fish out there, as well as other fish, and you
> > aren't going to say anything to sway me not to.
>
> You must be paranoid!!!! I couldn't care less what you tell people. Tell
> them all GF need 50 each for all I care. You wont be hurting my business
> any.
>
> > I will correct bogus information every time I see it.
>
> What's BOGUS to you is not BOGUS to someone else. Right now I have 4
> *small* lionheads in a 10g tank with plants that are thriving. They're well
> fed and get a 50% water change weekly. They'll be in there for at least
> another 3 to 4 months. This is a crime of some kind?
>
> > If you don't want me correcting something that you've said that's
> > incorrect, or even harmful to a fish, then don't say it. Pretty simple.
>
> Don't tell others what to do or say. You're not the moderator here. MOST
> people I have known start with the 10g tank because it's called a starter
> tank. It's affordable. It gives them a chance to see if the hobby is for
> them without a lot of money lost if it isn't. MOST of them realize no
> matter what they buy other than a few guppies or tetras will need a larger
> tank in the future. You need to deal with REALITY, not your fantasies of
> what you think is best for everyone and every fish.
>
> > If somebody else corrects you it's fine..no worries....yet when I do
> > you have a flaming fit and call me a liar.
>
> Maybe it's your rotten attitude and know-it-all approach, ya think? If a
> 10g gets someone started in a hobby I love I will keep recommending it, with
> or without YOUR approval. I give people credit for having some sense which
> you do not. I always offer to take the fish back if they change their minds
> or when it outgrows the 10g and they decide the hobby isn't for them. It
> works for me, the fish and those who purchase them.
>
> > Why don't you simply filter me out. That way you won't have to get your
> > panties in a bunch when I do. = )
>
> You aren't getting my panties in a bunch. It's winter and I'm indoors
> anyway....... :-)
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
> Troll Information:
> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Somehow you think the standerds these fish need to be housed in is my
personal opinion that I am trying to force on everyone.
That simply isn't true.
Anyone can check the facts for themselves, yes.
However, they often do not...hence the problem with their care in the
first place.
This is the point of why I say why not tell them the entire truth right
off the bat.
You also forgot we were discussing a Goldie living in a 3g tank...and
you compared that to a 120g. That's where "I got the 3g" from.
I did tell them the proper size tank for housing it in when it's grown
too. From your response, I you missed that as well.
You also have quite the nack for mixing words, or adding completely
different statements that I never said. That is why we go round and
round.

> You miss the point that you are not GOD and you have no idea what people
> will do with a fish once they bring it home no matter how large the tank
> someone sold them.

No, you missed the point again. The POINT is that it's not my opinion
of what their tank requirements are for living out their lives. That's
just what it is. It has nothing to do with my opinion, yet you keep
saying I'm telling them what I want...it's not what I want, it's just
the simple facts.
The point of telling them that they would eventually need x amount of
gallons per fish is so that they know ahead of time.
People don't do the research.
I wish I had a dollar for every hobbyist who comes here after they've
bought a fish and didn't have a clue about their care and requirements
and then have a problem on their hands.
Anyone can tell you that that happens all the time.
If it didn't, I wouldn't be so adamant about telling folks the whole
picture, not just part of it.
Of course I'm not saying YOU MUST buy that 1.5" Goldie a 20 tank right
now.
I'm saying that a 10g is fine for now, however, it won't be in the near
future and will need a larger tank.
That right there gives the person the CHOICE for them selves to buy the
right set up the first time, or later on, and they have the right
information for their care.
I won't even bother repsonding to the other crap you went on and on
about because it doesn't even deserve one. You twisted things, added
things, etc and it got ridiculous.
Anyone who read my response and then yours can see what you did for
them selves, and why I'm not even going to bother with it.

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
Tynk wrote:
> Koi-lo wrote:
>> "Tynk" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>>
>>> I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
>>>> reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long.
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank
>>>
>>> And why is that?
>>> Because of people telling them bad, bogus, false or misleading
>>> information about their proper care.
>>
>> Have laws passed then forcing everyone to do as YOU say they should
>> do.
>>
>>>> It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
>>>> treatment and proper housing!!
>>>> This is something you don't agree with.
>>
>>>> No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You
>>>> think everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say
>>>> here,.... and that's not going to happen.
>>
>>> I don't think everyone should do as I say. That's just silly.
>>
>> Oh really, yet you BEAT it death.
>>
>>> I do however, have a problem with people giving out bad or bogus
>>> information,
>>
>> So do I. SURPRISE!!!!
>>
>> or half truths when it comes to the proper care of fish.
>>> You keep missing that point.
>>
>> You miss the point that you are not GOD and you have no idea what
>> people will do with a fish once they bring it home no matter how
>> large the tank someone sold them.
>>
>> Anyone can do the research and see what
>>> I'm saying is the truth.
>>
>> Yawn..........
>>
>>> It's important that you tell them the entire truth right off the
>>> bat, not half the proper care, but all of it.
>>
>> Telling them the fish can reach a foot long is a half truth? Anyone
>> who comes here can SEE for themselves how large GF can get. There
>> is nothing wrong with starting with a 10g for a small GF. Most of
>> us started with a 5 or 10 for our first goldfish. I'd rather see
>> them in that than a bowl = certain death.
>>
>>>
>>>> Some
>>>> of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to
>>>> care for them properly.
>>>>
>>>> Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision.
>>>> When I tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the
>>>> person say, "Oh Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."
>>
>>> Of course they're going to do what they want to do anyway.
>>> However, if more people actually told them the proper care and
>>> housing in the FIRST PLACE there wouldn't be so many Goldfish, as
>>> well as other species, being kept in such horrible conditions.
>>
>> Like those small ivy bowls most of the bettes being bred and sold
>> are doomed to live in - right?
>>
>>> You didn't tell the original poster that they'll need a much larger
>>> tank than a 10g soon.
>>
>> Then you tell them. No one's stopping you.
>>
>>> Don't you think they might have wanted to know that in the first
>>> place? Of course they would!!
>>
>> Now you're a mind reader and know what people are thinking?
>>
>>> I've heard it too many times....well why didn't they tell me that
>>> when I bought the thing.
>>
>> They know a fish getting 12" long if it survives will necessitate a
>> larger tank. You insult people's intelligence. Give people some
>> credit for having some common sense.
>>
>>> In a way, you are adding to the problem.
>>
>> In a way you are as well so we're even..........
>>
>>> Now if this person took your advice and bought the Goldie a 10g,
>>> then finds out it was really too small of a tank in the first place
>>> and now they've got to go out and buy another entire set up, you
>>> don't think that's going to make them ticked off, or worse....
>>
>> When they were told a fish can get 12" long they could have decided
>> to get the larger tank to begin with. You must live in a
>> neighborhood of millionaires when people will whip out up to $180
>> for a tank set-up for a goldfish.
>>
>> ticked off and say
>>> forget it and leave the poor thing to die from being stunted.
>>
>> Why don't you get honest for 2 minutes - if even one of those
>> feeders (or even a more expensive GF) survives more than a few weeks
>> it's a miracle. Even GF people pay $25, $50 for are often left to
>> languish after the novelty wears off. I don't hear you whining
>> about those left behind to be fed to snakes, frogs and Oscars. Do
>> you hound the Managers of the stores where you live on their
>> welfare? Better in a 10g tank in someone's home where someone may
>> give it some care then being shredded and eaten by some pet predator
>> or to die of filth and overcrowding at the pet store. When the fish
>> gets larger common sense will tell a person with even an average IQ
>> that they need to get a lager tank or give the fish away. By then
>> they will know if this hobby is for them or not. When I worked in
>> the pet shop in town people would bring in unwanted fish all the
>> time and give them to us. Sometimes they'd even offer us the tank
>> for free to "give to some poor person's child."
>>
>>> That's why telling people only some of the tank requirments isn't
>>> right.
>>> I guess that's lost on you.
>>
>> Everything is lost on you.
>>
>>>> (either death
>>>> by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted
>>>> growth.
>>>>
>>>> Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.
>>
>>> Well duh. Anyone knows that can happen with a polluted tank, but
>>> it's surely not going to stunt a goldie living in a 120g.
>>
>> It will just KILL him or her after some days or weeks of
>> suffering.......
>>
>> That was just a
>>> silly, hot headed response which meant nothing. You cannot compare a
>>> Goldie living in a 3g tank vs. a 120g. Ridiculous.
>>
>> What 3g tank?
>>
>>> Do you undestand what happens to a fish that has been stunted
>>> because it's been stuffed into a tank that's way too small, no
>>> matter much water is changed weekly?
>>
>> Do you? How does one *STUFF* a 2 to 3" fish into a 10g tank? Is
>> your 10g tanks only 4" by 4" in size?
>>
>>> To say that stunting a fish isn't deadly, that it's a complete lie,
>>> is also ridiculous.
>>
>> You said, not me! Don't put words in other people's mouths because
>> they disagree with you.
>>
>>> I hope you will research the subject and learn more about it.
>>
>> That's what you need to do. The net is full of info on GF.
>>
>>> If a fish's growth is stunted, it dies much earlier than it's normal
>>> lifespan. That is *deadly*.
>>> You claim this is a lie. There is proof on the subject.
>> Please,
>>> research this so that you can understand what actually happens to
>>> them. They don't just stay smaller.
>>> Stunting will eventually kill them.
>>
>> So you mean they should keep the GF in the 10g tank forever until
>> they stunt it? You mean they'd be too stupid to realize the tank is
>> too small? That only YOU have enough intelligence to see a bigger
>> tank is needed? Everyone else is an idiot?
>>
>>>> That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their
>>>> internal organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are
>>>> very, very wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.
>>
>>>> No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel
>>>> you're right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.
>>
>>> Explain how I'm putting words into somebody's mouth?
>>
>> You're using the old BS technique of telling ME that I'm saying as
>> thought you were GOD and can read minds.
>>
>> This enitre
>>> statement made no sense in regard to what you are replying to.
>>>> It's not. It's cruel treatment.
>>
>>>> Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must
>>>> also purchase a 20g or 30g tank.
>>
>>> You know what...there should be laws regarding proper care for every
>>> animal, not just 4 legged animals.
>>
>> Proper care by who's standards? Better a well loved young GF in a
>> 10g rank than a neglected one in a 20g tank. If it lives give
>> others the credit of having some sense that they'll either give it
>> away or get another tank.
>>
>>>> Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be
>>>> breeding fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things"
>>>> act on me.
>>
>>> Sweetie...You know nothing of my breeding program.
>>> I don't breed for profit, for quantity, or just because I have a
>>> male and female.
>>> You've never asked me how often I breed, or know anything about my
>>> breeding program.
>>> Again...ridiculous to pounce on me for it.
>>
>> To you everyone is ridiculous but yourself. You're really stuck on
>> yourself for some reason.
>>
>>> I haven't bred in over 9 yrs because 1...either the stock wasn't
>>> worthy to breed, but were worthy to keep as pets, or 2. the
>>> *worthy* pair didn't spawn and I refuse to spawn just to spawn them.
>>
>> Do you want a pat on the back for that?
>>
>> It's about
>>> fixing a line, or making it better, or simply because the line is so
>>> worthy of breeding.
>>> Several yrs back I had 4 White Opaques from Bonnie McKinnley's line.
>>> Gorgeous fish.
>>> However, out of the 2 pairs only 1 m & f were worthy of spawning.
>>> The male did not have a clue and refused to spawn. I wanted so
>>> badly to have a White Opaque line going, but I do have a set of
>>> breeding ethics that I stand by firmly.
>>
>> Well good for you.
>>
>>> The shops I sold to yrs back (2 different ones) sold them to folks
>>> that had the proper set ups.
>>
>> And next you'll claim they paid someone to check out everyone's
>> setup at their homes - to sell them a $3 to $5 fish.
>>
>> Now this was before they became so popular and
>>> all the Betta/vase/peaceLily disaster started. So people back then
>>> actually kept them properly.
>>
>> I never knew any store to send an employee to someone's home to
>> check out their set-ups before selling them fish.
>>
>>> You couldn't find an Ivy bowl in a pet shop to save your life!
>>> 15 + or - yrs ago their popularity increased (as well as the
>>> mispronunciation of Betta to "bait-uh") and so did the poor
>>> conditions for them. Thanks mainly to the chain stores, and then
>>> the local stores that opened that just wanted to make more money
>>> instead of actually being truthful to hobbyists.
>>> Then came the idiot with the Betta and peace Lily in a vase and told
>>> people that they eat algae off the roots of the Lily. Duh. These
>>> fish are carnivores. Do you think I sat by and did nothing?
>>
>> I'm sure you went before congress and had it all stopped. No more
>> batta abuse. Do the goldfish next. Demand the person buy a 20g
>> tank set-up for any GF they're sold. Outlaw bowls and anything
>> under 20g tanks.... ;-) Keeping in mind the person usually has to
>> buy a stand as well because of the WEIGHT of a 20g tank. See how
>> many people pull out their $150 to $180 for a 20g tank.
>>
>>> Absolutely NOT. I have worked long and hard for yrs about getting
>>> the proper care of these fish out there, as well as other fish, and
>>> you aren't going to say anything to sway me not to.
>>
>> You must be paranoid!!!! I couldn't care less what you tell people.
>> Tell them all GF need 50 each for all I care. You wont be hurting
>> my business any.
>>
>>> I will correct bogus information every time I see it.
>>
>> What's BOGUS to you is not BOGUS to someone else. Right now I have 4
>> *small* lionheads in a 10g tank with plants that are thriving.
>> They're well fed and get a 50% water change weekly. They'll be in
>> there for at least another 3 to 4 months. This is a crime of some
>> kind?
>>
>>> If you don't want me correcting something that you've said that's
>>> incorrect, or even harmful to a fish, then don't say it. Pretty
>>> simple.
>>
>> Don't tell others what to do or say. You're not the moderator here.
>> MOST people I have known start with the 10g tank because it's called
>> a starter tank. It's affordable. It gives them a chance to see if
>> the hobby is for them without a lot of money lost if it isn't. MOST
>> of them realize no matter what they buy other than a few guppies or
>> tetras will need a larger tank in the future. You need to deal with
>> REALITY, not your fantasies of what you think is best for everyone
>> and every fish.
>>
>>> If somebody else corrects you it's fine..no worries....yet when I do
>>> you have a flaming fit and call me a liar.
>>
>> Maybe it's your rotten attitude and know-it-all approach, ya think?
>> If a 10g gets someone started in a hobby I love I will keep
>> recommending it, with or without YOUR approval. I give people
>> credit for having some sense which you do not. I always offer to
>> take the fish back if they change their minds or when it outgrows
>> the 10g and they decide the hobby isn't for them. It works for me,
>> the fish and those who purchase them.
>>
>>> Why don't you simply filter me out. That way you won't have to get
>>> your panties in a bunch when I do. = )
>>
>> You aren't getting my panties in a bunch. It's winter and I'm
>> indoors anyway....... :-)
>> --
>> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>> Aquariums since 1952
>> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>> http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
>> Troll Information:
>> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> Somehow you think the standerds these fish need to be housed in is my
> personal opinion that I am trying to force on everyone.
> That simply isn't true.
> Anyone can check the facts for themselves, yes.
> However, they often do not...hence the problem with their care in the
> first place.
> This is the point of why I say why not tell them the entire truth
> right off the bat.
> You also forgot we were discussing a Goldie living in a 3g tank...and
> you compared that to a 120g. That's where "I got the 3g" from.
> I did tell them the proper size tank for housing it in when it's grown
> too. From your response, I you missed that as well.
> You also have quite the nack for mixing words, or adding completely
> different statements that I never said. That is why we go round and
> round.
>
>> You miss the point that you are not GOD and you have no idea what
>> people will do with a fish once they bring it home no matter how
>> large the tank someone sold them.
>
> No, you missed the point again. The POINT is that it's not my opinion
> of what their tank requirements are for living out their lives. That's
> just what it is. It has nothing to do with my opinion, yet you keep
> saying I'm telling them what I want...it's not what I want, it's just
> the simple facts.
> The point of telling them that they would eventually need x amount of
> gallons per fish is so that they know ahead of time.
> People don't do the research.
> I wish I had a dollar for every hobbyist who comes here after they've
> bought a fish and didn't have a clue about their care and requirements
> and then have a problem on their hands.
> Anyone can tell you that that happens all the time.
> If it didn't, I wouldn't be so adamant about telling folks the whole
> picture, not just part of it.
> Of course I'm not saying YOU MUST buy that 1.5" Goldie a 20 tank right
> now.
> I'm saying that a 10g is fine for now, however, it won't be in the
> near future and will need a larger tank.
> That right there gives the person the CHOICE for them selves to buy
> the right set up the first time, or later on, and they have the right
> information for their care.
> I won't even bother repsonding to the other crap you went on and on
> about because it doesn't even deserve one. You twisted things, added
> things, etc and it got ridiculous.
> Anyone who read my response and then yours can see what you did for
> them selves, and why I'm not even going to bother with it.

Proactive people like tynk is what this country (usa) needs more of, not
negative false crap like what spews out of carol's mouth. Good luck and
later!

[Koi-lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-lo wrote:
>>
>> You aren't getting my panties in a bunch. It's winter and I'm indoors
>> anyway....... :-)
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
-==========================-
> Somehow you think the standerds these fish need to be housed in is my
> personal opinion that I am trying to force on everyone.
> That simply isn't true.
> Anyone can check the facts for themselves, yes.
> However, they often do not...hence the problem with their care in the
> first place.
> This is the point of why I say why not tell them the entire truth right
> off the bat.

You do tell them the TRUTH - that the fish, if it survives will need a
larger tank. You don't LIE and tell them GF stay small. You can't force
people to buy something they don't want, or to spend more than they can
afford or are willing to spend. By the time the fish outgrows the small
tank (one in 100 may if the fish is real lucky and lives) they have, the
person will have a good idea if they want to go the money for a larger tank
or give the fish away. But now you have a new hobbyist should they decide
on the bigger tank. If you demand or try to coerce them into spending a
bundle on a larger tank to start with, they will walk away or do as they
please and buy the small cheap set-up. Few will come up with the $180.00
unless they're already into the hobby or you live were the millionaires do.
I've worked in pet shops and seen this happen. You also have to work with
the rules of the store on selling. Our new Pet Supermarket store has
employees ask the customer how large their tank are before they sell them a
goldfish or a pleco. This really surprised me today.

> You also forgot we were discussing a Goldie living in a 3g tank...and
> you compared that to a 120g. That's where "I got the 3g" from.
> I did tell them the proper size tank for housing it in when it's grown
> too. From your response, I you missed that as well.
> You also have quite the nack for mixing words, or adding completely
> different statements that I never said. That is why we go round and
> round.

Well maybe we just have a problem communicating. Anyone who has had GF
would never suggest keeping them in a 3g tank.

> No, you missed the point again. The POINT is that it's not my opinion
> of what their tank requirements are for living out their lives. That's
> just what it is. It has nothing to do with my opinion, yet you keep
> saying I'm telling them what I want...it's not what I want, it's just
> the simple facts.

So what do you suggest? I can't seem to follow what you're trying to say?

> The point of telling them that they would eventually need x amount of
> gallons per fish is so that they know ahead of time.
> People don't do the research.

See above. I'm tired of repeating this over and over. Few people are
willing to spend $180+ for a set up for a GF, even if it's a $9.99 fish, or
a $14.99 fish. Should a store refuse to sell them a fish they will simply
drive to the next pet store and buy one......

> Of course I'm not saying YOU MUST buy that 1.5" Goldie a 20 tank right
> now.
> I'm saying that a 10g is fine for now, however, it won't be in the near
> future and will need a larger tank.

I tell everyone this who gets GF from me. They can see the parents of the
fish they buy and see how large they get.

> That right there gives the person the CHOICE for them selves to buy the
> right set up the first time, or later on, and they have the right
> information for their care.
> I won't even bother repsonding to the other crap you went on and on
> about because it doesn't even deserve one. You twisted things, added
> things, etc and it got ridiculous.

And to me I see how YOU twisted things, claiming I said this, and I said
that, putting your own spin on it. I've never lied to anyone who came here
for fish or about the potential size fish reached when I worked in pet
shops.

-- snip SOS!

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
Reading Headers:
http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-lo]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> Proactive people like tynk is what this country (usa) needs more of, not
> negative false crap like what spews out of carol's mouth. Good luck and
> later!
====================
Look Daniel. Why don't you just come out and say what's on your mind
instead of these childish trollish personal attacks? You admitted your
ignorance and that you had no idea how to check a header, refused to learn
how, are clueless, and choose to believe I am responsible for posts coming
from ISPs all over the country which is literally impossible.

Ignorance is not bliss! Here, *learn something* before attacking someone.
Reading Headers:
http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>