goldfish question

Hi everyone, new to the group.

I have a feeder goldfish, about 1.5" long, very healthy appetite and
energetic when it wants to be. Hey gotta start somewhere right? I
picked up a 3-gallon Marineland Eclipse 3 with the bio-wheel filter
'cause it got pretty decent reviews on some sites I looked at and
decided anything with a filter in it is better than (gasp) a bowl (heh,
i read the big eruption about the lady who understandably didn't want
to pay $500 for pet deposit to keep two small fish in a bowl), bought a
5lb bag of gravel, rinsed it all over, set up the tank, let the water
sit for a good while, got some plant bulbs but after 2 weeks nothing
has grown so stuck a dozen stems of anacharis in there too, got a nice
decorative rock with a hole in it, and my goldfish loved the tank and
swims through the hole in the rock, etc. I feed sinking pellets in the
morning, and a few flakes at night. Water was tap water treated with
AMQuel+ (nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, chloride, chloramine), and is
typically 75F without a heater installed.

I've cleaned the water in the tank after a week (changed about 25% of
the water) using a typical gravel cleaning hose, worked great.

All of this sits on my desk at work. Coworkers love it, they ask lots
of questions prompting me to go learn more. My wife has a 10gal
freshwater tank at home and she's been a good source for info (she's
kept a tank for many years)

Few questions/thoughts I have:

I put a 3-day disolvable feeder in the tank Friday before I left work,
came back in Monday and saw it was mostly dissolved, which meant the
fish was well fed - but the water was pretty murky after that, which
prompted the 25% water change which I was told I only really needed
once a month, not what will turn into a weekly chore if I keep using
the 3-day feeders. A pet shop staff member said that goldfish are
pretty hardy and as long as they're normally fed on Friday (not
overfed), they'd be fine until Monday morning - I've seen other sites
suggesting that making your fish fast now and then is healthy for them
- is this true?

For the last two days though, and again today, he's been content to
swim around a little, then rest right on the gravel on the bed of the
tank. he/she/it flattens its dorsel fin against its body, and just sits
there. I know it's breathing 'cause every time it happens, I watch
intently to see what's going on. After a few minutes, it'll swim around
a little, might hide up in the top-back-left corner of the tank behind
the filter tube, but still drifts down to the bottom a few times a day
and just 'sits' on the gravel. I can't imagine that's normal behavior
for a goldfish... He doesn't tip over, he's not swimming crooked or
anything, he's perfectly vertical while swimming around, but he just
sits right at the bottom of the tank. Very odd in my opinion, but then
I'm not anything close to an expert so figured I'd ask you guys.

This morning, I noticed a few little white spots on its right side near
the anal fin, but as the day went on they seem to have gone away. He's
been swiming fine, eating fine, loves to siphon the gravel for
leftovers, but then he'll pause, stop, sink to the gravel, and sit
there. There are no other spots on him, his scales are bight shiney
orange, his fins look okay (no red, no rips etc)

Is this really normal behavior, or should I just consider that a $0.20
feeder goldfish really isn't meant as a long-term aquatic pet? Should I
look at getting a pair of tetras or something else instead?

Thanks,
Ian

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi everyone, new to the group.

I have a feeder goldfish, about 1.5" long, very healthy appetite and
energetic when it wants to be. Hey gotta start somewhere right? I
picked up a 3-gallon Marineland Eclipse 3 with the bio-wheel
filter..........

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

I put a 3-day disolvable feeder in the tank Friday before I left work,
came back in Monday and saw it was mostly dissolved, which meant the
fish was well fed - but the water was pretty murky after that, which
prompted the 25% water change which I was told I only really needed
once a month,

Don't use those feeder blocks. They foul the water and contain almost no
food. It's almost all filler. Your goldfish will do fine with no food over
the weekends. Feed him a 3rd time when you get back to work on Monday. I
had a tank on my desk at work as well (before I retired). :-)

not what will turn into a weekly chore if I keep using
the 3-day feeders. A pet shop staff member said that goldfish are
pretty hardy and as long as they're normally fed on Friday (not
overfed), they'd be fine until Monday morning -

Exactly! My goldfish at the office were fine even over a 3 day weekend.

I've seen other sites
suggesting that making your fish fast now and then is healthy for them
- is this true?

Not to my knowledge.

.... He doesn't tip over, he's not swimming crooked or
anything, he's perfectly vertical while swimming around, but he just
sits right at the bottom of the tank. Very odd in my opinion, but then
I'm not anything close to an expert so figured I'd ask you guys....

What is the ammonia reading in this tank? How about the nitrite levels?
You do dechlorinate the water you add I hope.

This morning, I noticed a few little white spots on its right side near
the anal fin, but as the day went on they seem to have gone away. He's
been swiming fine, eating fine, loves to siphon the gravel for
leftovers, but then he'll pause, stop, sink to the gravel, and sit
there. There are no other spots on him, his scales are bight shiney
orange, his fins look okay (no red, no rips etc)

Usually feeders aren't the healthiest fish in the store. No one cares about
them because most will go as food to some predator someone keeps. White
spots can be ick. You can Google Goldfish and come up with more info than
you can read.

Is this really normal behavior, or should I just consider that a $0.20
feeder goldfish really isn't meant as a long-term aquatic pet? Should I
look at getting a pair of tetras or something else instead?

Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

(going to reply to both reply messages here)

Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Yeah, probably. Just not sure it's worth it for a $0.20 goldfish
though, unless I step up to other types of schooling fish like tetras
or guppies or something else simple? I'm admittedly new to this, so I'm
not going to rush out and buy freshwater angelfish or anything ;o)

What is the ammonia reading in this tank? How about the nitrite levels?
You do dechlorinate the water you add I hope.

Well, only being into this hobby for 2.5 weeks, I haven't purchased any
testing kits, so I have no idea what the levels are. As mentioned in my
previous post, I've been treating all water with AmQuel+ which helps
manage chloramine, cloride, nitrate, nitrite and ammonia levels,
although I haven't followed up as much on how those levels are affected
by the addative other than the chloramine and chloride levels being
lowered if not elimited. I suppose I could pick up a testing kit at
lunch and have a look.

If he's holding his fins up most of the time and can swim vigorously I
wouldn't be too worried.

Yeah, he's holding his fin up right now, and swims around, he's going
through all levels of the water (top, mid, low) and then settles back
down on the bottom. My wife, who has kept an aquairum for a while
thinks that maybe he's stressed or tired?

Feeders are shipped under appalling conditions, and sometimes a batch will be
so bad off that many die

When I started two weeks ago, I bought two feeder goldfish, and one
died within 24 hours after looking *very* lethargic, and was removed
within 10 seconds of dying - I was keeping a very close eye on it. The
remaining fish has lasted, like I said, two weeks, and has a healthy
appetite and swims just fine, it just seems very odd to me that it'd
rest on the gravel in the tank... didn't seem like normal fish behavior
to me.

Thanks for the followup!

ian

wrote in message
oups.com...
I was keeping a very close eye on it. The
remaining fish has lasted, like I said, two weeks, and has a healthy
appetite and swims just fine, it just seems very odd to me that it'd
rest on the gravel in the tank... didn't seem like normal fish behavior
to me.
========================
With the products you're using I don't know how your kits will read
(accurately or not) or if a healthy nitrogen cycle and develop. Resting on
the gravel isn't really a good sign as healthy GF are usually moving about
the tank as long as it's light enough to see. I'm going to suggest you do
some partial water changes using ONLY a product that removes chloramines and
chlorine. Then watch to see if there's an ammonia problem.... others may
have other ideas.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Koi-lo" wrote in
:

I'm going to suggest you do some partial water changes using ONLY a
product that removes chloramines and chlorine. Then watch to see if
there's an ammonia problem.... others may have other ideas.

A sal****er (two part) ammonia tester that is not based on the Nessler
method should measure the presence of ammonia despite the use of
detoxifying agents.

"dc" wrote in message
. ..
"Koi-lo" wrote in
:

I'm going to suggest you do some partial water changes using ONLY a
product that removes chloramines and chlorine. Then watch to see if
there's an ammonia problem.... others may have other ideas.

A sal****er (two part) ammonia tester that is not based on the Nessler
method should measure the presence of ammonia despite the use of
detoxifying agents.
========================
I see. I was just wondering if these products were screwing up the nitrogen
cycle.

Thank you.......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi everyone, new to the group.

I have a feeder goldfish, about 1.5" long, very healthy appetite and
energetic when it wants to be. Hey gotta start somewhere right? I
picked up a 3-gallon Marineland Eclipse 3 with the bio-wheel
filter..........

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

I put a 3-day disolvable feeder in the tank Friday before I left work,
came back in Monday and saw it was mostly dissolved, which meant the
fish was well fed - but the water was pretty murky after that, which
prompted the 25% water change which I was told I only really needed
once a month,

Don't use those feeder blocks. They foul the water and contain almost no
food. It's almost all filler. Your goldfish will do fine with no food over
the weekends. Feed him a 3rd time when you get back to work on Monday. I
had a tank on my desk at work as well (before I retired). :-)

not what will turn into a weekly chore if I keep using
the 3-day feeders. A pet shop staff member said that goldfish are
pretty hardy and as long as they're normally fed on Friday (not
overfed), they'd be fine until Monday morning -

Exactly! My goldfish at the office were fine even over a 3 day weekend.

I've seen other sites
suggesting that making your fish fast now and then is healthy for them
- is this true?

Not to my knowledge.

... He doesn't tip over, he's not swimming crooked or
anything, he's perfectly vertical while swimming around, but he just
sits right at the bottom of the tank. Very odd in my opinion, but then
I'm not anything close to an expert so figured I'd ask you guys....

What is the ammonia reading in this tank? How about the nitrite levels?
You do dechlorinate the water you add I hope.

This morning, I noticed a few little white spots on its right side near
the anal fin, but as the day went on they seem to have gone away. He's
been swiming fine, eating fine, loves to siphon the gravel for
leftovers, but then he'll pause, stop, sink to the gravel, and sit
there. There are no other spots on him, his scales are bight shiney
orange, his fins look okay (no red, no rips etc)

Usually feeders aren't the healthiest fish in the store. No one cares about
them because most will go as food to some predator someone keeps. White
spots can be ick. You can Google Goldfish and come up with more info than
you can read.

Is this really normal behavior, or should I just consider that a $0.20
feeder goldfish really isn't meant as a long-term aquatic pet? Should I
look at getting a pair of tetras or something else instead?

Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?


Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??
Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.
The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.
Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

To the original poster:

NEVER use those feeder blocks. They contain mostly plaster. This screws
up the water chemistry of your tank. They should really be taken off
the market, seeing how much harm they cause a tank.
It's perfectly fine to leave a fish without food over the weekend. Do
not over feed before leaving work on Fridays either. You'll only foul
the water quality.
And yes..you heard correct. Fasting a fish for a day a week is a good
thing.
Many seasoned aquarists fast their fish once weekly. It gives the
fish's body time to clean out and not get backed up.

As for the Goldfish in a 3g tank...not going to happen for much longer.
You have an infant fish. Put your hands 12" and then 16" aprt. That's
how large that fish can grow.
Goldies put out much more waste than the average community type fish
and you will need to do extra water changes as well.
Do not add any other types of fish to a Goldie tank, as they are not
compatible. Only Goldies should go with Goldies and you need to tank
space to do so.
For the 3g Eclipse (I love these and have 2 of them, and recommend them
all the time for Betta keepers) the Goldie cannot live it for much
longer and you'll either have to buy a 20g or larger tank for it, or
exchange it for something that can survive in a small tank.
A single male Betta would be wonderful (of course I would suggest such
a fish, as I'm a Betta breeder lol), b ut other fish such as 6 Neon
tetras, or a trio of fancy Guppies (get all males or you'll be overun
with babies), something that stays around an 1" - 1 1/2" long and has a
thin body mass, or somthing that can be kept alone, such as a male
Betta or Paradise Gourami.
Other than that there's not really much you can house in a 3g in
numbers.
Tetras are schooling fish and most grow too large to have a small
school in a 3g tank.
The Neons stay pretty small, so you could get away with a small school
of them.
Tiger Barbs get too large (body mass, not legnth) and need to be in
schools of 6 or more. So they're out too.
The odd behavior of your fish is either due to poor water conditions
(IE having a feeder block over the weekend in there or simply from the
goldie putting out more waste than you are removing with water
changes), or disease. My bet is on the water quality though.
Please do some research before buying a fish.
They don't all have the same needs and you cannot use that old,
outdated, useless "rule" about one inch of fish per gallon. That only
applies to 1-1 1/2" slim bodied fish..and no others in the hobby.
Some fish need territories, some have more body mass and need more
space than other fish of the same size, etc. There are so many reasons
why that old rule is a myth and has no place in this hobby anymore.
You are going to realize that there is so much bad info out there and
much of it coming from pet shop employees. = O
There are some wonderful shops out there with knowledgeable people
working in them, but they are sadly rare now a days. (NetMax's store
obviously not included in the bad ones). = ) He's a rare gem.
So go into a shop armed with knowledge before you go. Know the animal
you are thinking about before buying it. That way in the future you
won't run into the type of trouble that you are now in.
Don't get me wrong...you have a little time to figure out what to do
(water changes not included! Do them weekly), but not that long. It's
already 1 1/2".

"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
\ Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
\ ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.

See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you have to
realize.

The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.

That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty large
and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
fine for awhile.

Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more than
a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-lo wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
\ Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
\ ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.

See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you have to
realize.

The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.

That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty large
and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
fine for awhile.

Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more than
a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Hmm.....
So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
first...and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
weren't told this in the first place?
Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
keeper.
Tell them the truth in the first place!
As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
their large tank.
I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
they weren't told the right info in the first place...when they could
have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
had the right set up in the first place.
Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
bullcrap!
If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.
If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...add to
it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
set up in the near future. At least that gives them the chance to buy
the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
this tank is only temporary.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.

Tynk wrote:
Koi-lo wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
\ Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
\ ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.

See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you haveto
realize.

The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.

That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty large
and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
fine for awhile.

Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more than
a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Hmm.....
So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
first...and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
weren't told this in the first place?
Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
keeper.
Tell them the truth in the first place!
As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
their large tank.
I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
they weren't told the right info in the first place...when they could
have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
had the right set up in the first place.
Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
bullcrap!
If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.
If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...add to
it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
set up in the near future. At least that gives them the chance to buy
the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
this tank is only temporary.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.
That was supposed to be:
I cannot understand why you don't get that.