Clown Loaches--sick?

[Jamie Drilling]

I named them Skitter and Scatter, because they are neurotically shy.
They have developed a new hobby, or they are slowly dying, of laying on
their sides together behind a planter. Slightly worried. Last night I
assumed one was dying, then this morning when I went to scoop out its
corpse (sadly, because this is fast becoming my favorite species of
fish) it was fine. Now they are doing it again. Any opinions?

Jamie

55 gal, planted
3 watts/gal

2 clown loaches, approx 3"
3 angelfish, 1" to 3"
2 otocinclus
3 harlequin rasboras
1 betta, Tony

[Koi-lo]

"Jamie Drilling" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I named them Skitter and Scatter, because they are neurotically shy.
> They have developed a new hobby, or they are slowly dying, of laying on
> their sides together behind a planter. Slightly worried. Last night I
> assumed one was dying, then this morning when I went to scoop out its
> corpse (sadly, because this is fast becoming my favorite species of
> fish) it was fine. Now they are doing it again. Any opinions?
============================
Clowns will sleep this way. They are not dying. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
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Reading Headers:
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~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
Jamie Drilling wrote:
> I named them Skitter and Scatter, because they are neurotically shy.
> They have developed a new hobby, or they are slowly dying, of laying
> on their sides together behind a planter. Slightly worried. Last
> night I assumed one was dying, then this morning when I went to scoop
> out its corpse (sadly, because this is fast becoming my favorite
> species of fish) it was fine. Now they are doing it again. Any
> opinions?
>
> Jamie
>
> 55 gal, planted
> 3 watts/gal
>
> 2 clown loaches, approx 3"
> 3 angelfish, 1" to 3"
> 2 otocinclus
> 3 harlequin rasboras
> 1 betta, Tony

I'm betting your clowns are playing dead (messing with your head), they are
"clowns" after all and from what I've read are great comedians! Good luck
and later!

[Dick]

On 29 Jan 2006 22:01:09 -0800, "Jamie Drilling"
> wrote:

>I named them Skitter and Scatter, because they are neurotically shy.
>They have developed a new hobby, or they are slowly dying, of laying on
>their sides together behind a planter. Slightly worried. Last night I
>assumed one was dying, then this morning when I went to scoop out its
>corpse (sadly, because this is fast becoming my favorite species of
>fish) it was fine. Now they are doing it again. Any opinions?
>
>Jamie
>
>55 gal, planted
>3 watts/gal
>
>2 clown loaches, approx 3"
>3 angelfish, 1" to 3"
>2 otocinclus
>3 harlequin rasboras
>1 betta, Tony

Clowns die many times before their bodies are dead! <g> I have 11 in
3 tanks. I worried the first few weeks over their lifeless "looking"
bodies. Now they have hideouts and I miss seeing their deadly antics.

dick

[Elaine T]

Jamie Drilling wrote:
> I named them Skitter and Scatter, because they are neurotically shy.
> They have developed a new hobby, or they are slowly dying, of laying on
> their sides together behind a planter. Slightly worried. Last night I
> assumed one was dying, then this morning when I went to scoop out its
> corpse (sadly, because this is fast becoming my favorite species of
> fish) it was fine. Now they are doing it again. Any opinions?
>
> Jamie
>
> 55 gal, planted
> 3 watts/gal
>
> 2 clown loaches, approx 3"
> 3 angelfish, 1" to 3"
> 2 otocinclus
> 3 harlequin rasboras
> 1 betta, Tony
>

That's the "Clown Pile" you might have seen mentioned. It's perfectly
normal behavior, believe it or not.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[dc]

"Jamie Drilling" > wrote in
oups.com:

> I named them Skitter and Scatter, because they are neurotically shy.
> They have developed a new hobby, or they are slowly dying, of laying on
> their sides together behind a planter. Slightly worried. Last night I

Clown loaches are very social fish. The more of them you have the less
stressed they will be and they more you will see them.

How long have you had them in your tank? Sometimes they can take a quite
while to get used to a new tank. Give them as many single entrance caves
and hideaways as you can. Eventually they should calm down.

I always suggest people keep a minimum of three clown loaches. These fish
tend to form a kind of hierarchy amongst themselves in a group, with just
two fish you will always have one dominant and one stressed subservient
fish. Though it is not easy to see the quarreling, it will become evident
with time to the careful observer that one is generally more stressed and
less well fed than the other when you only keep a pair.

Clowns also like a softer slightly acidic water, so check your pH. I have
clown loaches in my Altum angelfish tank, and they are very bold and always
out asking for food, but I also have a mob of least seven of them in there.

Some people have luck with singles or pairs, but it will take longer for
them to calm down and adjust to their surroundings. Most of the clowns
available in the trade are wild caught fish, so it can take a while for
them to adjust to aquarium life.

[dc]

Elaine T > wrote in news:dGtDf.20548$Jd.7178
@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:

> That's the "Clown Pile" you might have seen mentioned. It's perfectly
> normal behavior, believe it or not.

It's not really "normal". Clowns will mob together, but they generally do
it to this extreme when they are very stressed. A happy clown mob will be
active and exploring the tank together, not lying down and cramming
themselves behind a planter.

[Dick]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:07:19 -0600, dc > wrote:

>"Jamie Drilling" > wrote in
oups.com:
>
>> I named them Skitter and Scatter, because they are neurotically shy.
>> They have developed a new hobby, or they are slowly dying, of laying on
>> their sides together behind a planter. Slightly worried. Last night I
>
>Clown loaches are very social fish. The more of them you have the less
>stressed they will be and they more you will see them.
>
>How long have you had them in your tank? Sometimes they can take a quite
>while to get used to a new tank. Give them as many single entrance caves
>and hideaways as you can. Eventually they should calm down.

Share your experience, but be aware there are lots of us with Clowns
that have different experience. If you are addressing "newbies" be
cautious how you state your experience. Passing on politically
correct and oft stated generalities, in my opinion, is less than
worthless. If your advice is followed many fine fish opportunities
will be missed.

>
>I always suggest people keep a minimum of three clown loaches. These fish
>tend to form a kind of hierarchy amongst themselves in a group, with just
>two fish you will always have one dominant and one stressed subservient
>fish. Though it is not easy to see the quarreling, it will become evident
>with time to the careful observer that one is generally more stressed and
>less well fed than the other when you only keep a pair.

It ain't necessarily so! I have yet to see my 11 Clowns quarrel. The
pair in a 10 gallon tank are just as lively at feedings as those in
the larger tanks.
>
>Clowns also like a softer slightly acidic water, so check your pH. I have
>clown loaches in my Altum angelfish tank, and they are very bold and always
>out asking for food, but I also have a mob of least seven of them in there.

I know we seem to get a variety of opinions in the aquatic groups as
to size, behavior, etc of fish. For example, my loaches are in pH of
7.6. Might they be happier in "slightly acidic water"? Who knows, I
am happy with what I have.
>
>Some people have luck with singles or pairs, but it will take longer for
>them to calm down and adjust to their surroundings. Most of the clowns
>available in the trade are wild caught fish, so it can take a while for
>them to adjust to aquarium life.


I have 2 Clown Loaches in a 10 gallon tank along with 1 SAE and
several Platys. They are just as content as the 6 in a 75 gallon and
the 3 in a 29 gallon. I have enjoyed them from their first entry into
my tanks. Their behavior has changed over the years, but I actually
miss the early behavior. If that was stress, perhaps I need to stir
thinks up, but I think plant growth has provided screens and filled
open spaces and thus brought about the behavior change.

The main problem, I have experienced with Clowns is Ich. I order all
my fish, plants, food, etc. over the internet. I received 6 Clowns
that had Ich. It didn't spread to the community, but most died. The
vendor was most apologetic and shipped 7 to me after getting in a
fresh stock and quarantining them for awhile. They arrived fine.

dick

[dc]

Dick > wrote in
:

> Share your experience, but be aware there are lots of us with Clowns
> that have different experience. If you are addressing "newbies" be
> cautious how you state your experience. Passing on politically
> correct and oft stated generalities, in my opinion, is less than
> worthless. If your advice is followed many fine fish opportunities
> will be missed.

That's not a generality, but your assumptions of my statements are.
Your statement on political correctness doesn't make much sense at all,
except to pass off an oddly phrased criticism.

This is an observation based on research and experience. All loaches
enjoy hiding spaces. I've observed they appear to enjoy large single
entrance caves more than any other kind of cover. It appears to calm
them down if they only have to keep watch one entrance. Instead of
piling underneath one another in an attempt not to be seen, the loaches
hang about in a much more relaxed fashion and breathe much less heavily.
The more hideaways they have in a tank, the less likely they are to use
them.

At any one time I am looking after 80 to 300 clown loaches at work, not
to mention the mob of mature loaches I keep in my own personal tank.



> It ain't necessarily so! I have yet to see my 11 Clowns quarrel. The
> pair in a 10 gallon tank are just as lively at feedings as those in
> the larger tanks.

I don't think you really understood what I said. The loaches don't
fight with each other in any obvious manner, but they do generally
establish hierarchies amongst themselves. This has been documented in a
lot of available literature and I agree with it based on my
observations.

These are not aggressive fishes. The most you will ever probably be
able to interpret from their behaviour is a bit of shoving come feeding
time. Less dominate loaches sometimes tend to shy away until the
dominate loaches have gorged themselves. Wait until some of your eleven
loaches get at least 6" long... there should be some very obvious weight
and attitude classes by then.

That all said, it is not universally true. Fish of the same species can
sometimes have radically different personalities which are only more
differentiated via the nurture of their environment.



> I know we seem to get a variety of opinions in the aquatic groups as
> to size, behavior, etc of fish. For example, my loaches are in pH of
> 7.6. Might they be happier in "slightly acidic water"? Who knows, I
> am happy with what I have.

Slightly acidic conditions match the kind of environment they evolved to
live in. Most healthy fish can adapt to very different water
conditions, so long as they aren't too radically different.

A stressed loach with be further stressed by being kept in an improper
pH. Adjusting your pH to suit them can often help a stressed fish
recover from stress faster. A healthy calm loach probably isn't even
phased by slightly alkaline water, and will easily produce a little
extra body slim to compensate.


> my tanks. Their behavior has changed over the years, but I actually
> miss the early behavior. If that was stress, perhaps I need to stir
> thinks up, but I think plant growth has provided screens and filled
> open spaces and thus brought about the behavior change.

That is percisely why building large caves is one of the best thing to
help a stressed loach. They don't like open spaces. Plants take a
while to grow in, a good cave can be built in 30 seconds.


> The main problem, I have experienced with Clowns is Ich. I order all
> my fish, plants, food, etc. over the internet. I received 6 Clowns
> that had Ich. It didn't spread to the community, but most died.

Yes, loaches are extremely susceptible to ich. As you may or may not
know, ich is a stress related disease. The mere presence of the
parasite in the water and substrate is not generally enough for the
disease to manifest itself. A fish with a healthy immune system can
usually easily resist the simple parasite.

Loaches are extremely prone to stress. High stress levels mean high
cortisol levels which eventually leads to immune system fallout, which
is what gives ich the edge over loaches.

Ever since I've been providing newly imported clown loaches with large
well constructed caves I've seen our ich infection rates drop to zero.

[Altum]

> Ever since I've been providing newly imported clown loaches with large
> well constructed caves I've seen our ich infection rates drop to zero.

Now THAT is valuable information. How large relative to the loach and
how do you suggest constructing them? Should the entrance be similar
to the size of the fish or are larger openings OK?

[dc]

"Altum" > wrote in news:1138826741.423702.265590
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

>> Ever since I've been providing newly imported clown loaches with large
>> well constructed caves I've seen our ich infection rates drop to zero.
>
> Now THAT is valuable information. How large relative to the loach and
> how do you suggest constructing them? Should the entrance be similar
> to the size of the fish or are larger openings OK?

The more loaches that can fit in the cave the better. The most important
point seems to be keeping the cave relatively dark. The entrance can be
very large, so long as it isn't allowing a lot of light inside. Slate rock
works very well. I try to assemble things so that the cave entrances are
large but low lying.

[Koi-Lo]

"dc" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, loaches are extremely susceptible to ich. As you may or may not
> know, ich is a stress related disease. The mere presence of the
> parasite in the water and substrate is not generally enough for the
> disease to manifest itself. A fish with a healthy immune system can
> usually easily resist the simple parasite.
====================
I'm considering 2 or 3 clowns now that the stores have a fresh new supply
in. What is the BEST and SAFEST product in your opinion should they come
down with ick in the quarantine tank? I use Quick-Cure for other fish but
loaches are sensitive.... any suggestions?
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[NetMax]

"dc" > wrote in message
...
> "Altum" > wrote in
> news:1138826741.423702.265590
> @o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
>
>>> Ever since I've been providing newly imported clown loaches with large
>>> well constructed caves I've seen our ich infection rates drop to zero.
>>
>> Now THAT is valuable information. How large relative to the loach and
>> how do you suggest constructing them? Should the entrance be similar
>> to the size of the fish or are larger openings OK?
>
> The more loaches that can fit in the cave the better. The most important
> point seems to be keeping the cave relatively dark. The entrance can be
> very large, so long as it isn't allowing a lot of light inside. Slate rock
> works very well. I try to assemble things so that the cave entrances are
> large but low lying.

Interesting. It would seem counter-productive. Reducing the incidents of
an external parasite (Ich) which relies on being able to locate prey in
close proximity from where it hatches in the substrate, by promoting a
behaviour (with large caves) causing the fish to remain for extended periods
of time in close proximity to each other, sitting directly on a limited area
of the substrate. (!?!)

This suggests that either the fish's natural defence (slime coat) is
significantly improved by contact with each other, or just the lowering of
their stress level vastly improves their slime coat production (at a faster
rate than I would expect, but fish are full of surprises) - or - you just
got in a batch(s) of healthy disease resistant fish (or your suppliers is
pre-treating them) and you're incorrectly attributing the positive results
to a coincidental change. Your positive results might also be partly due to
whatever diet you have designed for these fish.

Regardless, I applaud your efforts, and please continue reporting your
findings. For my Clown loach tanks, I used reduced lighting (1/2wpg), a
substrate of fine gravel covered by dried leaves, covered with lots of
driftwood chunks. If they got trapped in the wood crevices, the driftwood
was buoyant enough that they could cause the wood to lift into the water.
If I did it again, I think I would switch to a thin layer (3/4") of sand, to
let them burrow a bit, increase the lighting to 3/4wpg and fill the tank
with Hornwort, however I never achieved consistent success with these fish.
The best I did was about 25% with larger specimens (>4"), 75% with 2-1/2" to
4", 95% with the 1-1/2" to 2-1/2", and then 75% with anything smaller than
1-1/2". To summarize, large or too small and my acclimation success rate
dropped significantly!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[dc]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in
:

> I'm considering 2 or 3 clowns now that the stores have a fresh new
> supply in. What is the BEST and SAFEST product in your opinion should
> they come down with ick in the quarantine tank? I use Quick-Cure for
> other fish but loaches are sensitive.... any suggestions?

I use Quick-Cure as well, but I half the dosage for loaches. The key for
getting rid of ich on loaches is calming them down before the infection
gets severe. If you can put the loaches at ease in their environment the
infection usually disappears within three days depending on how early you
observe the parasite.

The only fish that I've seen have a bad reaction to Quick-Cure, even at a
1/4 dose, are the electric fishes like knives.

[dc]

"NetMax" > wrote in
:

> This suggests that either the fish's natural defence (slime coat) is
> significantly improved by contact with each other, or just the
> lowering of their stress level vastly improves their slime coat
> production (at a faster rate than I would expect, but fish are full of

It's more than just about a slime coating. A fish's immune system has
the basic structure of most other in the animal kingdom, including
humans. High stress levels lead to an overproduction of cortisol by the
adrenal gland, which in turn ramps up the immune system. However the
heightened effect is only temporary, if the stress induced cortisol
levels persist for long the immune system exhausts itself and begins to
fail. There are stats that go along with this stress/health related
phenomenon in the health psychology texts for at least the past 40 years
that I know of.

Ich is not a particularly nasty parasite; it's a simple single celled
organism. A fish usually has to be stressed or in failing health to be
afflicted by the disease, and then it is rarely fatal if you treat the
disease and address whatever third factor has made the fish vulnerable
to it in the first place.


> surprises) - or - you just got in a batch(s) of healthy disease
> resistant fish (or your suppliers is pre-treating them) and you're
> incorrectly attributing the positive results to a coincidental change.
> Your positive results might also be partly due to whatever diet you
> have designed for these fish.

The fish are not pre-treated before they are shipped to us, at least not
for ich. We are in pretty close contact with most of our suppliers.
I'm certain the infection occurs on our premises--I know our tanks well
enough. The only fish I've ever seen come in with ich is the occasional
marine fish... especially box fishes.

I've treated loaches (and most any other fish) for the parasite enough
times to know what works and why. Without getting wrapped up
unnecessarily in the scientific approach--the treatment has even been
run under a simple controls, with loaches split from same shipment both
contracting the disease. Water conditions being equal, the loaches
neglectfully left more exposed took exceedingly long to treat by
comparison, and in fact only completely recovered once they were
provided with adequate cover.

Their diet does not change. Once healthy, these fish are in our tanks
for three weeks at most before they've all been turned over. It's not
worth our while to pamper the diet of a transient fish when it isn't
picky about what it eats.



> findings. For my Clown loach tanks, I used reduced lighting (1/2wpg),
> a substrate of fine gravel covered by dried leaves, covered with lots
> of driftwood chunks. If they got trapped in the wood crevices, the

Sounds like a great setup. If I remember correctly, a muddy bottom with
thick dead leaf and wood cover is similar to their natural wild
environment.

The key is giving them spots to duck out of sight. My main point in
this entire thread was two pronged, 1. good hiding spots calm loaches
down, 2. caves are simple and quick to build.

[Koi-Lo]

"dc" > wrote in message
...
> "Koi-Lo" > wrote in
> :
>
>> I'm considering 2 or 3 clowns now that the stores have a fresh new
>> supply in. What is the BEST and SAFEST product in your opinion should
>> they come down with ick in the quarantine tank? I use Quick-Cure for
>> other fish but loaches are sensitive.... any suggestions?
>
> I use Quick-Cure as well, but I half the dosage for loaches. The key for
> getting rid of ich on loaches is calming them down before the infection
> gets severe. If you can put the loaches at ease in their environment the
> infection usually disappears within three days depending on how early you
> observe the parasite.

Thank you. Would you recommend treating them even if no parasites are seen?
If they spend a lot of time hiding it could be easy to miss an infestation
starting. I read the above messages and will make sure they have lots of
places to hide and feel secure in the Q tank. I'll give them a few platys
as dither fish. The tank itself if off the beaten path in my home so they
should not suffer too much stress.

> The only fish that I've seen have a bad reaction to Quick-Cure, even at a
> 1/4 dose, are the electric fishes like knives.

Thanks again,.... that's good to know.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[dc]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in
:

> Thank you. Would you recommend treating them even if no parasites are
> seen? If they spend a lot of time hiding it could be easy to miss an
> infestation starting. I read the above messages and will make sure
> they have lots of places to hide and feel secure in the Q tank. I'll
> give them a few platys as dither fish. The tank itself if off the
> beaten path in my home so they should not suffer too much stress.

You'd have to judge yourself based on the condition you got the fish in and
what you know about the tank it is going into. I don't like to use
chemicals when they're not necessary, but a single mild dose of quick-cure
in a clean tank doesn't appear to hurt much.