Red Growth

[Disney Trivia Ron]

I have been getting a lotof red growth on my LR in my reef tank that has been
set up for about 1.5 yrs now. It doesnt appear to be red hair algae but more
of a reddish fuzzz. Any ideas? Water levels are:

temp: 78
PH 8.2
Nirtites 0
Nitrates (been ranging between 40 & 80)
Ammonia 0

[Dinky]

"Disney Trivia Ron" > wrote in message
...
| I have been getting a lotof red growth on my LR in my reef tank
that has been
| set up for about 1.5 yrs now. It doesnt appear to be red hair
algae but more
| of a reddish fuzzz. Any ideas? Water levels are:
|
| temp: 78
| PH 8.2
| Nirtites 0
| Nitrates (been ranging between 40 & 80)
| Ammonia 0
|
|

I have that red fuzz, too, so I'm hoping someone answeres, but why
are you permitting such High nitrate levels?? I wouldn't even allow
that in my freshwater tanks.



--

billy
--
Need tech help?
news://news.winextra.com

[Bill and Kat]

Hi, any ideas yet? I also have had a recent uprising of red fuzz. Im also
battleing my nitrates to get them down. at 40 now, have done 3 water
changes in last 2 weeks and gotten it down from 60. (I have a 90 gal tank
with 60ish gallons in sump filter in basement. I always assumed the red
algae is from the nitrates but any other info let me know


"Disney Trivia Ron" > wrote in message
...
> I have been getting a lotof red growth on my LR in my reef tank that has
been
> set up for about 1.5 yrs now. It doesnt appear to be red hair algae but
more
> of a reddish fuzzz. Any ideas? Water levels are:
>
> temp: 78
> PH 8.2
> Nirtites 0
> Nitrates (been ranging between 40 & 80)
> Ammonia 0
>
>

[Phil O'Connor]

Oh thank god!!! I've struggled with red fuzz forever, and I've never gotten
anyone on here to even acknowledge it. It was like it existed only in my tank
and no one else ever heard of it. I do get red slime, and assumed the fuzz was
the start of a slime bloom.

Everyone always tells me to increase circulation and that WILL fix my problem.
But it doesnt. The fuzz is right in strong current and you can see it
waving,but it clings to the substrate regardless.

I'm just relieved I'm not the only one. A diagnosis and recommendation would be
too much to hope for :-)


Disney Trivia Ron wrote:

> I have been getting a lotof red growth on my LR in my reef tank that has been
> set up for about 1.5 yrs now. It doesnt appear to be red hair algae but more
> of a reddish fuzzz. Any ideas? Water levels are:
>
> temp: 78
> PH 8.2
> Nirtites 0
> Nitrates (been ranging between 40 & 80)
> Ammonia 0

[CapFusion]

"Phil O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Oh thank god!!! I've struggled with red fuzz forever, and I've never
gotten
> anyone on here to even acknowledge it. It was like it existed only in my
tank
> and no one else ever heard of it. I do get red slime, and assumed the
fuzz was
> the start of a slime bloom.
>
> Everyone always tells me to increase circulation and that WILL fix my
problem.
> But it doesnt. The fuzz is right in strong current and you can see it
> waving,but it clings to the substrate regardless.
>
> I'm just relieved I'm not the only one. A diagnosis and recommendation
would be
> too much to hope for :-)
>

Every tank will have Red [and other color] algae. I have some very small
spot but will be gone eventually. I welcome red and other color algae to be
growth so it can be feed to my shrimps and tangs and clown. But in your case
is different since you probably have an abunden of them. My guess is your
have alot of nutrient in your water which feed your algae. These nutrient
can be from the food you feed to your fish. Double check how you feed your
fish and what food you feed them. Some food will leak extra nutrient to the
water instead of consume by your fish. The other thing will encourage your
algae growth is the light spectrum. Good lamp will not promote since within
the spectrim range. How long have you use that lamp? Next is to look what
type of filter you are using or effecient enough. In marine tank, you will
be looking at Live Rock / Live Sand / Protein Skimmer / janitoral crew
[shrimp/snail etc]. Protein Skimmer is very important since it will gather
and filter out any floating nutrient / floating particale from the water
circulation. Anything that is heavy, will sink down to the bottom [sand] or
to the Rock and will consume by those janitoral crew. And if those food is
miss, it will decay and release nutrient. Bacteria from the sand and Protein
Skimmer will finish that off.

Check if you overfeed.
Or the food you put in.
Check your lamp and how long it been use.
Check your PS is working properly.
Check your cleanup crew [janitoral] is there or enough.
Check your sand if it trap debris. If it does, it maybe decaying some meat
or food.

Check if anything is eating your algae. If it can not consume enough to be
incheck, you will need to manually remove it yourself by sipon or suck it
out. Not recommend just simply pull it or cut it since you going to release
nutrient during that process.

Whatever color algae you have, the general requirement for it to grow is the
basically the same.
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aboutjanitors/a/aa043099_2.htm
http://www.melevsreef.com/gha.html

CapFusion,...

[Phil O'Connor]

Cap,

Thanks for the input. My biggest frustration is just wanting to know what the
h the stuff is. I thought it was slime (which does exist) but I've been told
here beyond any doubt the slime will not adhere to the substrate under current.
Whereas this stuff clearly hangs on with the current blowing right on it. And
it is fuzzy. But I have 2 problems, the red slime, and then more recently an
orange fuzz/slime that people here have deemed dinoflaggelates. Actually, the
red seems to be subsiding, but the orange happily marches on.

As for the issues you bring up:

I have a 46 bowfront FOWLR. I run an aqua C Remora which should be
sufficient.

I have an Emperor filter (i forget the model number, its the double) which is
rated for that size tank.

Live rock, I dont have much. Certainly not enough for filtration, just some for
shelter, decoration, and food source. probably only 15lbs.

Crushed coral substrate.

My humu trigger eats all my snails and crabs, so no janitorial crew to speak
of. Some have survived (dunno why), but I've stopped replacing them, as the
trigger starts snacking the minute I put new ones in. Perhaps this is the area
I need to rethink.

I stay on top of the lamps, those are fresh and current. (Coralife 10000K)

My RO filter may be lacking. I have my own unit. I always figured it was fine
since my 7 gal nano reef uses the same water source but has had none of these
problems. But just recently, I see some green hair and diatoms in the nano reef
for the first time ever (2 year old). So I just replaced my membrane and
prefilters. Perhaps the other tank was symptomatic earlier for some reason, but
same cause. Just starting to work in the new water now....too early to tell.

I have 3 powerheads, 2 of them down near the substrate. No dead spots at all.
very strong current.

Feeding: I normally feed some Formula One pellets (actually the orange slime
appeared right around the time I switched to this food source), for the tang
and damsels, plus some sundried baby shrimp for the trigger. once a day. Then
some seaweed (nori) later in the day. Occaisionally, I'll feed frozen
(sal****er multipak) for variety, and some fresh squid for the trigger. so
once a day some food, and once a day some nori. they seem to consume it all.
Generally a pellet or two will hit the ground and be forgotten, with no
janitors, but shouldnt my filtration be able to handle that?

There is nothing eating my algae to my knowledge. My naso tang will nibble it
from the glass on occaision, but certainly not as regular practice.

Again, thanks for the help, and if anything here is setting a red light off,
let me know.
Phil







CapFusion wrote:


> >
>
> Every tank will have Red [and other color] algae. I have some very small
> spot but will be gone eventually. I welcome red and other color algae to be
> growth so it can be feed to my shrimps and tangs and clown. But in your case
> is different since you probably have an abunden of them. My guess is your
> have alot of nutrient in your water which feed your algae. These nutrient
> can be from the food you feed to your fish. Double check how you feed your
> fish and what food you feed them. Some food will leak extra nutrient to the
> water instead of consume by your fish. The other thing will encourage your
> algae growth is the light spectrum. Good lamp will not promote since within
> the spectrim range. How long have you use that lamp? Next is to look what
> type of filter you are using or effecient enough. In marine tank, you will
> be looking at Live Rock / Live Sand / Protein Skimmer / janitoral crew
> [shrimp/snail etc]. Protein Skimmer is very important since it will gather
> and filter out any floating nutrient / floating particale from the water
> circulation. Anything that is heavy, will sink down to the bottom [sand] or
> to the Rock and will consume by those janitoral crew. And if those food is
> miss, it will decay and release nutrient. Bacteria from the sand and Protein
> Skimmer will finish that off.
>
> Check if you overfeed.
> Or the food you put in.
> Check your lamp and how long it been use.
> Check your PS is working properly.
> Check your cleanup crew [janitoral] is there or enough.
> Check your sand if it trap debris. If it does, it maybe decaying some meat
> or food.
>
> Check if anything is eating your algae. If it can not consume enough to be
> incheck, you will need to manually remove it yourself by sipon or suck it
> out. Not recommend just simply pull it or cut it since you going to release
> nutrient during that process.
>
> Whatever color algae you have, the general requirement for it to grow is the
> basically the same.
> http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aboutjanitors/a/aa043099_2.htm
> http://www.melevsreef.com/gha.html
>
> CapFusion,...

[Marc Levenson]

A picture would be nice. There are a couple of possibilities.

Here's one:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/nftt/index.htm

Or does it look like this?

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/macna15/sp_redalgae.jpg

Marc


Phil O'Connor wrote:

> Cap,
>
> Thanks for the input. My biggest frustration is just wanting to know what the
> h the stuff is. I thought it was slime (which does exist) but I've been told
> here beyond any doubt the slime will not adhere to the substrate under current.
> Whereas this stuff clearly hangs on with the current blowing right on it. And
> it is fuzzy. But I have 2 problems, the red slime, and then more recently an
> orange fuzz/slime that people here have deemed dinoflaggelates. Actually, the
> red seems to be subsiding, but the orange happily marches on.
>
> As for the issues you bring up:
>
> I have a 46 bowfront FOWLR. I run an aqua C Remora which should be
> sufficient.
>
> I have an Emperor filter (i forget the model number, its the double) which is
> rated for that size tank.
>
> Live rock, I dont have much. Certainly not enough for filtration, just some for
> shelter, decoration, and food source. probably only 15lbs.
>
> Crushed coral substrate.
>
> My humu trigger eats all my snails and crabs, so no janitorial crew to speak
> of. Some have survived (dunno why), but I've stopped replacing them, as the
> trigger starts snacking the minute I put new ones in. Perhaps this is the area
> I need to rethink.
>
> I stay on top of the lamps, those are fresh and current. (Coralife 10000K)
>
> My RO filter may be lacking. I have my own unit. I always figured it was fine
> since my 7 gal nano reef uses the same water source but has had none of these
> problems. But just recently, I see some green hair and diatoms in the nano reef
> for the first time ever (2 year old). So I just replaced my membrane and
> prefilters. Perhaps the other tank was symptomatic earlier for some reason, but
> same cause. Just starting to work in the new water now....too early to tell.
>
> I have 3 powerheads, 2 of them down near the substrate. No dead spots at all.
> very strong current.
>
> Feeding: I normally feed some Formula One pellets (actually the orange slime
> appeared right around the time I switched to this food source), for the tang
> and damsels, plus some sundried baby shrimp for the trigger. once a day. Then
> some seaweed (nori) later in the day. Occaisionally, I'll feed frozen
> (sal****er multipak) for variety, and some fresh squid for the trigger. so
> once a day some food, and once a day some nori. they seem to consume it all.
> Generally a pellet or two will hit the ground and be forgotten, with no
> janitors, but shouldnt my filtration be able to handle that?
>
> There is nothing eating my algae to my knowledge. My naso tang will nibble it
> from the glass on occaision, but certainly not as regular practice.
>
> Again, thanks for the help, and if anything here is setting a red light off,
> let me know.
> Phil
>
> CapFusion wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > Every tank will have Red [and other color] algae. I have some very small
> > spot but will be gone eventually. I welcome red and other color algae to be
> > growth so it can be feed to my shrimps and tangs and clown. But in your case
> > is different since you probably have an abunden of them. My guess is your
> > have alot of nutrient in your water which feed your algae. These nutrient
> > can be from the food you feed to your fish. Double check how you feed your
> > fish and what food you feed them. Some food will leak extra nutrient to the
> > water instead of consume by your fish. The other thing will encourage your
> > algae growth is the light spectrum. Good lamp will not promote since within
> > the spectrim range. How long have you use that lamp? Next is to look what
> > type of filter you are using or effecient enough. In marine tank, you will
> > be looking at Live Rock / Live Sand / Protein Skimmer / janitoral crew
> > [shrimp/snail etc]. Protein Skimmer is very important since it will gather
> > and filter out any floating nutrient / floating particale from the water
> > circulation. Anything that is heavy, will sink down to the bottom [sand] or
> > to the Rock and will consume by those janitoral crew. And if those food is
> > miss, it will decay and release nutrient. Bacteria from the sand and Protein
> > Skimmer will finish that off.
> >
> > Check if you overfeed.
> > Or the food you put in.
> > Check your lamp and how long it been use.
> > Check your PS is working properly.
> > Check your cleanup crew [janitoral] is there or enough.
> > Check your sand if it trap debris. If it does, it maybe decaying some meat
> > or food.
> >
> > Check if anything is eating your algae. If it can not consume enough to be
> > incheck, you will need to manually remove it yourself by sipon or suck it
> > out. Not recommend just simply pull it or cut it since you going to release
> > nutrient during that process.
> >
> > Whatever color algae you have, the general requirement for it to grow is the
> > basically the same.
> > http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aboutjanitors/a/aa043099_2.htm
> > http://www.melevsreef.com/gha.html
> >
> > CapFusion,...

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[CapFusion]

I see couple thing I do not really like.
Crush Coral
Emperor Filter
Janitoral Crew

Other -
Food get trap in substrate which will decay - While being decay, it will
release nutrient.
No Janitoral crew to pick up any trash [sense of speaking] or scavaging

Double check your RO unit again with a TDS to see what the product water
rated at. Since you did not indicate any phospate so I am not to sure if RO
may contribute to it.

If I can remember from your previous post, you have like over 40ppm nitrate.
This will contribute food for algae.

I should have gave this link earlier but since Marc provide now.
Try this link -
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/nftt/index.htm
Try putting some Mexican Turbo snail and hopefully your Trigger will not
make a meal out of it. During that meantime, you will need to manual prume
and siphon out.

General speaking, I do not see your tank have much filter to remove excess
nutrient. But I do see as mechanical type filter due to your canister to
remove waste only and not really effecient enough. Your nitrate is your
obvious biggest problem. Canister / crush coral / decaying food are your
contributor. Your Protein Skimmer will not effeciently enough to remove it.
PS can not remove anything if it get stuck in your substrate until it
release and floating about in your current for it to remove it. That maybe
the reason why your subtrate and rock have algae.

CapFusion,...


"Phil O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Cap,
>
> Thanks for the input. My biggest frustration is just wanting to know what
the
> h the stuff is. I thought it was slime (which does exist) but I've been
told
> here beyond any doubt the slime will not adhere to the substrate under
current.
> Whereas this stuff clearly hangs on with the current blowing right on it.
And
> it is fuzzy. But I have 2 problems, the red slime, and then more recently
an
> orange fuzz/slime that people here have deemed dinoflaggelates. Actually,
the
> red seems to be subsiding, but the orange happily marches on.
>
> As for the issues you bring up:
>
> I have a 46 bowfront FOWLR. I run an aqua C Remora which should be
> sufficient.
>
> I have an Emperor filter (i forget the model number, its the double) which
is
> rated for that size tank.
>
> Live rock, I dont have much. Certainly not enough for filtration, just
some for
> shelter, decoration, and food source. probably only 15lbs.
>
> Crushed coral substrate.
>
> My humu trigger eats all my snails and crabs, so no janitorial crew to
speak
> of. Some have survived (dunno why), but I've stopped replacing them, as
the
> trigger starts snacking the minute I put new ones in. Perhaps this is the
area
> I need to rethink.
>
> I stay on top of the lamps, those are fresh and current. (Coralife 10000K)
>
> My RO filter may be lacking. I have my own unit. I always figured it was
fine
> since my 7 gal nano reef uses the same water source but has had none of
these
> problems. But just recently, I see some green hair and diatoms in the nano
reef
> for the first time ever (2 year old). So I just replaced my membrane and
> prefilters. Perhaps the other tank was symptomatic earlier for some
reason, but
> same cause. Just starting to work in the new water now....too early to
tell.
>
> I have 3 powerheads, 2 of them down near the substrate. No dead spots at
all.
> very strong current.
>
> Feeding: I normally feed some Formula One pellets (actually the orange
slime
> appeared right around the time I switched to this food source), for the
tang
> and damsels, plus some sundried baby shrimp for the trigger. once a day.
Then
> some seaweed (nori) later in the day. Occaisionally, I'll feed frozen
> (sal****er multipak) for variety, and some fresh squid for the trigger.
so
> once a day some food, and once a day some nori. they seem to consume it
all.
> Generally a pellet or two will hit the ground and be forgotten, with no
> janitors, but shouldnt my filtration be able to handle that?
>
> There is nothing eating my algae to my knowledge. My naso tang will
nibble it
> from the glass on occaision, but certainly not as regular practice.
>
> Again, thanks for the help, and if anything here is setting a red light
off,
> let me know.
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> CapFusion wrote:
>
>
> > >
> >
> > Every tank will have Red [and other color] algae. I have some very small
> > spot but will be gone eventually. I welcome red and other color algae to
be
> > growth so it can be feed to my shrimps and tangs and clown. But in your
case
> > is different since you probably have an abunden of them. My guess is
your
> > have alot of nutrient in your water which feed your algae. These
nutrient
> > can be from the food you feed to your fish. Double check how you feed
your
> > fish and what food you feed them. Some food will leak extra nutrient to
the
> > water instead of consume by your fish. The other thing will encourage
your
> > algae growth is the light spectrum. Good lamp will not promote since
within
> > the spectrim range. How long have you use that lamp? Next is to look
what
> > type of filter you are using or effecient enough. In marine tank, you
will
> > be looking at Live Rock / Live Sand / Protein Skimmer / janitoral crew
> > [shrimp/snail etc]. Protein Skimmer is very important since it will
gather
> > and filter out any floating nutrient / floating particale from the water
> > circulation. Anything that is heavy, will sink down to the bottom [sand]
or
> > to the Rock and will consume by those janitoral crew. And if those food
is
> > miss, it will decay and release nutrient. Bacteria from the sand and
Protein
> > Skimmer will finish that off.
> >
> > Check if you overfeed.
> > Or the food you put in.
> > Check your lamp and how long it been use.
> > Check your PS is working properly.
> > Check your cleanup crew [janitoral] is there or enough.
> > Check your sand if it trap debris. If it does, it maybe decaying some
meat
> > or food.
> >
> > Check if anything is eating your algae. If it can not consume enough to
be
> > incheck, you will need to manually remove it yourself by sipon or suck
it
> > out. Not recommend just simply pull it or cut it since you going to
release
> > nutrient during that process.
> >
> > Whatever color algae you have, the general requirement for it to grow is
the
> > basically the same.
> > http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aboutjanitors/a/aa043099_2.htm
> > http://www.melevsreef.com/gha.html
> >
> > CapFusion,...
>

[Phil O'Connor]

My Emperor filter is not a canister, but a hang-on-back powerfilter with
biowheels. Admittedly, I dont change the filter pads often enough, and I'm sure
they become nitrate booms. Thats an area I can improve. And I will repopulate
the janitorial crew. Good suggestions.

But I'm confused about your remark that I dont have enough filtration to remove
nutrients. My biological filter (be it the biowheels, liverock, or both) is
sufficent enough to keep ammonia and nitrate to zero. That just leaves
denitrification. And all I can do there is water changes, which is very slow,
and cant elimiate nitrates altogether. I cant put in a DSB at this point. I
could scale up my liverock, but the liverock in my nano reef fails to denitrify
at all, so I'm skeptical that it would be successful in my big tank.

Or do you mean that, for instance, a janitorial crew is part of a 'filter' to
remove nutrients? That I can understand.

So at this point, my plan of attack is more frequent vaccuming/water changes (I
get lazy *blush*), more frequent filter pad replacement, scale up janitorial
crew.

Other than that, I dont believe I'm understanding your objections to my Emperor
filter. And do see any value in putting more live rock in? Like I say, I've
had no success getting liverock to denitrify in my other tank, so I dont know
how to ensure that will work.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the help.
Phil


CapFusion wrote:

> I see couple thing I do not really like.
> Crush Coral
> Emperor Filter
> Janitoral Crew
>
> Other -
> Food get trap in substrate which will decay - While being decay, it will
> release nutrient.
> No Janitoral crew to pick up any trash [sense of speaking] or scavaging
>
> Double check your RO unit again with a TDS to see what the product water
> rated at. Since you did not indicate any phospate so I am not to sure if RO
> may contribute to it.
>
> If I can remember from your previous post, you have like over 40ppm nitrate.
> This will contribute food for algae.
>
> I should have gave this link earlier but since Marc provide now.
> Try this link -
> http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/nftt/index.htm
> Try putting some Mexican Turbo snail and hopefully your Trigger will not
> make a meal out of it. During that meantime, you will need to manual prume
> and siphon out.
>
> General speaking, I do not see your tank have much filter to remove excess
> nutrient. But I do see as mechanical type filter due to your canister to
> remove waste only and not really effecient enough. Your nitrate is your
> obvious biggest problem. Canister / crush coral / decaying food are your
> contributor. Your Protein Skimmer will not effeciently enough to remove it.
> PS can not remove anything if it get stuck in your substrate until it
> release and floating about in your current for it to remove it. That maybe
> the reason why your subtrate and rock have algae.
>
> CapFusion,...
>

[CapFusion]

"Phil O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> My Emperor filter is not a canister, but a hang-on-back powerfilter with
> biowheels. Admittedly, I dont change the filter pads often enough, and I'm
sure
> they become nitrate booms. Thats an area I can improve. And I will
repopulate
> the janitorial crew. Good suggestions.

Sorry, I was thinking of something else. Either way, canister or hangon
filter will produce nitrate and especially with bios-wheel. Maybe at the
time I wrote the message, I did not have enough caffeine.


> But I'm confused about your remark that I dont have enough filtration to
remove
> nutrients. My biological filter (be it the biowheels, liverock, or both)
is
> sufficent enough to keep ammonia and nitrate to zero. That just leaves
> denitrification. And all I can do there is water changes, which is very
slow,
> and cant elimiate nitrates altogether. I cant put in a DSB at this point.
I
> could scale up my liverock, but the liverock in my nano reef fails to
denitrify
> at all, so I'm skeptical that it would be successful in my big tank.
>

Mechnical filter like the filter hangon your tank will trap waste or large
particale. That the purpose of mechnical filter. It just simply filter and
trap large item that go through the media. Any smaller size will simply pass
through it and back to your tank. Those trap particle will be food for
bacteria to break down to nitrate. Nitrate will be the end result of the
cycle. Nothing in your tank or ecosystem will break down nitrate.

Your LR will not be effecient if you only have like 15lb of it for your
tank. Maybe 46lb or more should be consider. You indicate you have Live
Rock, does it have critter living in it or going on it beside algae? Seem
like algae is your friend in your tank to keep your nitrate lower. Without
algae, you may have higher nitrate then you have now.

Water changes is not really denitrification but diluting. You simply remove
a portion of water which may contain nitrate and other and putting in fresh
water without it to your current volume. You will need bacteria that live in
your sandbed to convert any nitrate that obsorb. And especially the decaying
food.

Maybe you should read this to find out about DSB and Denitrification.
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

Since you do not really have senitive critter then nitrate should not be too
much problem regarding the health of your inhibitant. You simply get algae.


> Or do you mean that, for instance, a janitorial crew is part of a 'filter'
to
> remove nutrients? That I can understand.

Yes, you can consider janitoral crew is part of filter. Even your Trigger if
it eat algae regularly.


> So at this point, my plan of attack is more frequent vaccuming/water
changes (I
> get lazy *blush*), more frequent filter pad replacement, scale up
janitorial
> crew.
>

It seem like this maybe only option in your situation.


> Other than that, I dont believe I'm understanding your objections to my
Emperor
> filter. And do see any value in putting more live rock in? Like I say,
I've
> had no success getting liverock to denitrify in my other tank, so I dont
know
> how to ensure that will work.

LR will help clean any debris maybe floating and get trap. Those trapped
debris will get eaten either by bacteria or critter that roam about. It
almost the same as your mechnical filter [emperor] It trap debris that get
caught in it. LR will not be as effecient as DSB.


CapFusion,...

[Marc Levenson]

Biowheels create nitrates 24 hours a day. Dirty filter pads do as well. Plan on
rinsing them well every 3 or 4 days if you want to stay with that system.

My 29g doesn't have any type of filter pad, wheel, sock .. nothing. The water is
crystal clear and people are surprised by this. Particulates trapped in any type
of pad will rot as they break down and nitrates have nowhere to go but up.

http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html

Marc


Phil O'Connor wrote:

> My Emperor filter is not a canister, but a hang-on-back powerfilter with
> biowheels. Admittedly, I dont change the filter pads often enough, and I'm sure
> they become nitrate booms. Thats an area I can improve. And I will repopulate
> the janitorial crew. Good suggestions.
>
> But I'm confused about your remark that I dont have enough filtration to remove
> nutrients. My biological filter (be it the biowheels, liverock, or both) is
> sufficent enough to keep ammonia and nitrate to zero. That just leaves
> denitrification. And all I can do there is water changes, which is very slow,
> and cant elimiate nitrates altogether. I cant put in a DSB at this point. I
> could scale up my liverock, but the liverock in my nano reef fails to denitrify
> at all, so I'm skeptical that it would be successful in my big tank.
>
> Or do you mean that, for instance, a janitorial crew is part of a 'filter' to
> remove nutrients? That I can understand.
>
> So at this point, my plan of attack is more frequent vaccuming/water changes (I
> get lazy *blush*), more frequent filter pad replacement, scale up janitorial
> crew.
>
> Other than that, I dont believe I'm understanding your objections to my Emperor
> filter. And do see any value in putting more live rock in? Like I say, I've
> had no success getting liverock to denitrify in my other tank, so I dont know
> how to ensure that will work.
>
> Thanks again, I really appreciate the help.
> Phil
>
> CapFusion wrote:
>
> > I see couple thing I do not really like.
> > Crush Coral
> > Emperor Filter
> > Janitoral Crew
> >
> > Other -
> > Food get trap in substrate which will decay - While being decay, it will
> > release nutrient.
> > No Janitoral crew to pick up any trash [sense of speaking] or scavaging
> >
> > Double check your RO unit again with a TDS to see what the product water
> > rated at. Since you did not indicate any phospate so I am not to sure if RO
> > may contribute to it.
> >
> > If I can remember from your previous post, you have like over 40ppm nitrate.
> > This will contribute food for algae.
> >
> > I should have gave this link earlier but since Marc provide now.
> > Try this link -
> > http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/nftt/index.htm
> > Try putting some Mexican Turbo snail and hopefully your Trigger will not
> > make a meal out of it. During that meantime, you will need to manual prume
> > and siphon out.
> >
> > General speaking, I do not see your tank have much filter to remove excess
> > nutrient. But I do see as mechanical type filter due to your canister to
> > remove waste only and not really effecient enough. Your nitrate is your
> > obvious biggest problem. Canister / crush coral / decaying food are your
> > contributor. Your Protein Skimmer will not effeciently enough to remove it.
> > PS can not remove anything if it get stuck in your substrate until it
> > release and floating about in your current for it to remove it. That maybe
> > the reason why your subtrate and rock have algae.
> >
> > CapFusion,...
> >

--
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[Phil]

Marc,

So how do you maintain crystal clear water with no mechanical filtration?
During vaccuming and water changes, lots of particulates get kicked up,
and I cringe until my mechanical filter clears the water again.

What confuses me is, yes, biowheels create nitrates 24/7, but so does any
biological filter, no? Thats what its there for. And you need that. Or is
the issue that live rock performs more efficiently as a biofilter, and
produces fewer nitrates? Or are you saying biowheels sustain nitrate
production even when the cycle is not being fed with DOCs, whereas
liverock wont.

I like how you've converted a trickle filter into a sump. Actually, you
have me thinking very seriously about installing a sump/refugium, and
employing DSB and macroalgae for denitrification. I'm very nervous about
yanking my biowheels, since thats my established biofilter. I may
consider slowly ramping up the liverock until thats active, and then
axing the biowheels. Do I need strong lighting to use liverock as my
primary biofilter? I have only 30w now.

In anycase, that will be a slow migration. Meantime, I think I'd like to
take on a sump and get denitrification happening.

Thanks,
Phil


Marc Levenson > wrote in
:

> Biowheels create nitrates 24 hours a day. Dirty filter pads do as
> well. Plan on rinsing them well every 3 or 4 days if you want to stay
> with that system.
>
> My 29g doesn't have any type of filter pad, wheel, sock .. nothing.
> The water is crystal clear and people are surprised by this.
> Particulates trapped in any type of pad will rot as they break down
> and nitrates have nowhere to go but up.
>
> http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html
>
> Marc
>
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

Hi Phil,

The water remains crystal clear as long as I keep my hands out of the tank. The
oils on my skin affect water tension, as does a water change or new top off
water, as does feeding the tank.

The stuff that blows around in the tank ends up being food for something, so I
have no reason to trap and remove it. All that is in there I put there,
including daily food. The clean up crew, the microfauna and the livestock help
eat up what is edible (on some level).

During a water change and/or siphoning of the gravel, the water will get dirty,
but it clears up within an hour or two. If you have corals, that is typically
the time they'll feed on the floating detritus. Some guys on ReefCentral.com
even intentionally blow all the stuff that landed in the sump, getting it back
into the water so their livestock can have another chance and consuming it. The
skimmer will pull out what is in the water as well.

The biological filter can only deal with a specific amount of pollutants, and
once they get too high LR & LS can't keep up. By getting those levels down,
success is attainable.

I did convert a trickle filter into a sump, and used it for about 6 weeks until
I built a brand new sump that had room and volume. It makes caring for my 55g a
real breeze.

LR doesn't depend on lighting, that I'm aware of. I do believe a DSB does,
because I've seen bubbles formed on the substrate during the day time (nitrates
coverted to nitrogen gas bubbles) which rise and pop. I've never noticed this
occuring during lights out.

You can make the conversion slowly. As soon as you have the sump and refugium
in place, that would be the perfect time to pull out the biowheels. You can put
additional LR in the sump if you don't want it in the display tank.

Marc


Phil wrote:

> Marc,
>
> So how do you maintain crystal clear water with no mechanical filtration?
> During vaccuming and water changes, lots of particulates get kicked up,
> and I cringe until my mechanical filter clears the water again.
>
> What confuses me is, yes, biowheels create nitrates 24/7, but so does any
> biological filter, no? Thats what its there for. And you need that. Or is
> the issue that live rock performs more efficiently as a biofilter, and
> produces fewer nitrates? Or are you saying biowheels sustain nitrate
> production even when the cycle is not being fed with DOCs, whereas
> liverock wont.
>
> I like how you've converted a trickle filter into a sump. Actually, you
> have me thinking very seriously about installing a sump/refugium, and
> employing DSB and macroalgae for denitrification. I'm very nervous about
> yanking my biowheels, since thats my established biofilter. I may
> consider slowly ramping up the liverock until thats active, and then
> axing the biowheels. Do I need strong lighting to use liverock as my
> primary biofilter? I have only 30w now.
>
> In anycase, that will be a slow migration. Meantime, I think I'd like to
> take on a sump and get denitrification happening.
>
> Thanks,
> Phil
>
> Marc Levenson > wrote in
> :
>
> > Biowheels create nitrates 24 hours a day. Dirty filter pads do as
> > well. Plan on rinsing them well every 3 or 4 days if you want to stay
> > with that system.
> >
> > My 29g doesn't have any type of filter pad, wheel, sock .. nothing.
> > The water is crystal clear and people are surprised by this.
> > Particulates trapped in any type of pad will rot as they break down
> > and nitrates have nowhere to go but up.
> >
> > http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> >

--
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Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Rod]

>What confuses me is, yes, biowheels create nitrates 24/7, but so does any
>biological filter, no? Thats what its there for. And you need that. Or is
>the issue that live rock performs more efficiently as a biofilter, and
>produces fewer nitrates? Or are you saying biowheels sustain nitrate
>production even when the cycle is not being fed with DOCs, whereas
>liverock wont.
>
>

Bio-wheels, bio-balls, canisters, etc. are great at convertin the Amonnia to
nitrite and nitrites to nitrates, but due to the areobic bacteria that is
growing on the media. To convert the nitrates to a harmless gas you need anoxic
(low oxygen ) zones for anaerobic bacteria to colonize. These bacteria
(anaerobic) colonize in deep sand beds and deep within the live rock. Running
filrtermedia (bio-wheels) and liverock/DSB just causes compitition within the 2
types of bacteria, and none of them get up to their full potential of doing
what they are meant to do.
Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

[Phil]

(Rod) wrote in
:
>
> Bio-wheels, bio-balls, canisters, etc. are great at convertin the
> Amonnia to nitrite and nitrites to nitrates, but due to the areobic
> bacteria that is growing on the media. To convert the nitrates to a
> harmless gas you need anoxic (low oxygen ) zones for anaerobic
> bacteria to colonize. These bacteria (anaerobic) colonize in deep sand
> beds and deep within the live rock.

I'm with you so far....

>Running filrtermedia (bio-wheels)
> and liverock/DSB just causes compitition within the 2
> types of bacteria, and none of them get up to their full potential of
> doing
> what they are meant to do.

Here I'm lost again. I dont understand how they are in competition with
each other when they feed on different things. The aerobic bacteria feeds
on ammonia and nitrite,and the anaerobic bacteria fees on nitrates, so
wheres the competition? Or are there other components that they have in
common? And even if so, why would that competition not also be the case
with the different types of bacteria on LR alone?

According to Marc's post, LR is a more suitable medium for aerobic
bacteria than filtermedia, apparently due to nitrate production. This is
what I'm not clear on why.

Hope I dont appear argumentative (I've been mistaken as such before) I
just get frustrated when I dont understand :-)

Thanks for bearing with me.
Phil

[CapFusion]

"Phil" > wrote in message
. ..
> Marc,
>

> So how do you maintain crystal clear water with no mechanical filtration?
> During vaccuming and water changes, lots of particulates get kicked up,
> and I cringe until my mechanical filter clears the water again.
>

Mechnanical filter can do so much. You can inspect how your filter work.
Next time you stir up those pollutant, not all get suck up by your filter
but settle down on your substrate or whatever it land on - especially the
heavy or big one. BUT what if you have a natural filteration that will
remove those land on your substrate and rock. There will be too many
decaying thing laying around and less nutrient to be release. Think about
it. I believe you using "Fresh Water" method on how to clean / filter your
Fresh Water Tank.


> What confuses me is, yes, biowheels create nitrates 24/7, but so does any
> biological filter, no? Thats what its there for. And you need that. Or is
> the issue that live rock performs more efficiently as a biofilter, and
> produces fewer nitrates? Or are you saying biowheels sustain nitrate
> production even when the cycle is not being fed with DOCs, whereas
> liverock wont.

BiosFIlter job is to trap prolllutant or particle that can be stuck in those
coarse hole. That the reason biosfilter is 24/7 nitrate factory. Bacterial
convert to nitrate but nothing will convert to nitrogen gas to be less toxic
and be release. It will stay there until you either remove it or it get
decay and release itself.

Your whole Marine tank is consider a filter. You need everyone including
bacteria to do their part.


> I like how you've converted a trickle filter into a sump. Actually, you
> have me thinking very seriously about installing a sump/refugium, and
> employing DSB and macroalgae for denitrification. I'm very nervous about
> yanking my biowheels, since thats my established biofilter. I may
> consider slowly ramping up the liverock until thats active, and then
> axing the biowheels. Do I need strong lighting to use liverock as my
> primary biofilter? I have only 30w now.
>

Remove the Bio-ball or media where it house very effecient bacteria where it
live and convert to nitrate.
You will need to slowly convert from trickle to DSB sump or Refugium. Normal
light will be ok for macro algae.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

Maybe the word "competition" maybe not the word to use. Those bacteria that
convert to nitrate IS much more effecient depending where they live. In
trickle sump type, they live in open air where water pass-through but in
submerge like in a gravel / crush coral it will not that effecient but
enough that ananerobic bacteria from DSB can not catch up. Maybe this
general idea will help.

CapFusion,...


"Phil" > wrote in message
. ..
> (Rod) wrote in
> :
> >
> > Bio-wheels, bio-balls, canisters, etc. are great at convertin the
> > Amonnia to nitrite and nitrites to nitrates, but due to the areobic
> > bacteria that is growing on the media. To convert the nitrates to a
> > harmless gas you need anoxic (low oxygen ) zones for anaerobic
> > bacteria to colonize. These bacteria (anaerobic) colonize in deep sand
> > beds and deep within the live rock.
>
> I'm with you so far....
>
> >Running filrtermedia (bio-wheels)
> > and liverock/DSB just causes compitition within the 2
> > types of bacteria, and none of them get up to their full potential of
> > doing
> > what they are meant to do.
>
> Here I'm lost again. I dont understand how they are in competition with
> each other when they feed on different things. The aerobic bacteria feeds
> on ammonia and nitrite,and the anaerobic bacteria fees on nitrates, so
> wheres the competition? Or are there other components that they have in
> common? And even if so, why would that competition not also be the case
> with the different types of bacteria on LR alone?
>
> According to Marc's post, LR is a more suitable medium for aerobic
> bacteria than filtermedia, apparently due to nitrate production. This is
> what I'm not clear on why.
>
> Hope I dont appear argumentative (I've been mistaken as such before) I
> just get frustrated when I dont understand :-)
>
> Thanks for bearing with me.
> Phil
>
>

[Phil O'Connor]

CapFusion wrote:

> Maybe the word "competition" maybe not the word to use. Those bacteria that
> convert to nitrate IS much more effecient depending where they live. In
> trickle sump type, they live in open air where water pass-through but in
> submerge like in a gravel / crush coral it will not that effecient but
> enough that ananerobic bacteria from DSB can not catch up. Maybe this
> general idea will help.
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what 'efficient' means. Is efficient BAD? (meaning
higher nitrate production per DOC input) I guess that makes sense.
Therefore, filter media, being more efficient, is undesirable. Do I have that
right?

Phil (still me, just posting from my work)

[Phil O'Connor]

CapFusion wrote:

> "
> [/snip]
> Mechnanical filter can do so much. You can inspect how your filter work.
> Next time you stir up those pollutant, not all get suck up by your filter
> but settle down on your substrate or whatever it land on - especially the
> heavy or big one. BUT what if you have a natural filteration that will
> remove those land on your substrate and rock. There will be too many
> decaying thing laying around and less nutrient to be release. Think about
> it. I believe you using "Fresh Water" method on how to clean / filter your
> Fresh Water Tank.

But everything I see in marine tank instruction and/or sales always includes
all three filters: mechnical, chemical, bio. Although I can understand how
some may adopt an alternate philosophy do to away with mechanical (as explained
here), its not actually considered 'wrong' for marine tanks, is it? Its still
the conventional wisdom for marine, no?

And we havent even talked about chemical. I see Marc has done away with that
too. Whats the theory behind that? Chemical is just for odor elimination, isnt
it? So there's no danger without it, just smells. So, Marc, are you living
with tank odors, or does your system handle that naturally too?

>
>
>
> Remove the Bio-ball or media where it house very effecient bacteria where it
> live and convert to nitrate.
> You will need to slowly convert from trickle to DSB sump or Refugium. Normal
> light will be ok for macro algae.

Does DSB house ALL types of necessary bacteria? So it can stand alone as
biofilter? Or is LR needed with it?

I gotta say, I've been at this over 2 years now, and research constantly, but
every now and then, I get input that reduces me back to feeling like I know
nothing :-)

[CapFusion]

"Phil O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding what 'efficient' means. Is efficient BAD?
(meaning
> higher nitrate production per DOC input) I guess that makes sense.
> Therefore, filter media, being more efficient, is undesirable. Do I have
that
> right?
>
> Phil (still me, just posting from my work)
>
I guess you can put it like that.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Phil O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
>

> But everything I see in marine tank instruction and/or sales always
includes
> all three filters: mechnical, chemical, bio. Although I can understand
how
> some may adopt an alternate philosophy do to away with mechanical (as
explained
> here), its not actually considered 'wrong' for marine tanks, is it? Its
still
> the conventional wisdom for marine, no?

Does that instruction indicate the date? Sales? Do you mean from LFS? As
them again, the one really know about marine tank. For fish only in the tank
and nothing else that would be ok with the mechnical filter since fish can
tolerate certain level of toxic. What is wrong or right way? It all come
down to how you take-care for your inhibant / critter in your tank. The only
mechnical you will need is PS for filtering.


> And we havent even talked about chemical. I see Marc has done away with
that
> too. Whats the theory behind that? Chemical is just for odor elimination,
isnt
> it? So there's no danger without it, just smells. So, Marc, are you
living
> with tank odors, or does your system handle that naturally too?
>

What type of chemical you referring to? Do you mean medication you put in
for sick fish? Or water conditioner? The only oder you will smell is from
your PS from it foam. or waste or nitrogen release from the sand bed. If you
mean the odor from the dead / decaying food odor?

The only method I know is carbon to remove odor or chemical. This carbon is
apply for FS and SW environment. Is this what you mean?


> Does DSB house ALL types of necessary bacteria? So it can stand alone as
> biofilter? Or is LR needed with it?
>

I do not know if DSB have all necessary bacteria. The DSB probably have
million kind and type. But the kind live under a zone where no or less
oxygen that will break down nitrogen compound to nitrogen gas. The bacter
from the LR is not sufficient as the one from the DSB.


> I gotta say, I've been at this over 2 years now, and research constantly,
but
> every now and then, I get input that reduces me back to feeling like I
know
> nothing :-)
>

Everyday there a new method or alternative, just like Trickle sump [Wet/Dry]
before. There probably another way in the future better then natural /
biological filter [LR/LS - DSB /janitoral]. Even algae is part of biological
filter. It obsorb nutrient to live and grow. It will release oxygen gas and
their waste product.

CapFusion,....

[Phil]

"CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in
:

>
>
> [/snip]
> What type of chemical you referring to? Do you mean medication you put
> in for sick fish? Or water conditioner? The only oder you will smell
> is from your PS from it foam. or waste or nitrogen release from the
> sand bed. If you mean the odor from the dead / decaying food odor?
>
> The only method I know is carbon to remove odor or chemical. This
> carbon is apply for FS and SW environment. Is this what you mean?

Yes, I mean carbon. Marc's system is without any carbon. But this seems
less of an issue. But I was just wondering if, when I remove my filter
pads which have the carbon in them, if I should maintain carbon in my
system some other way.

> Everyday there a new method or alternative, <Snip>

Point taken. Thanks for your help, this has been one of the more
productive threads for me.

Cheers.
Phil

>
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

Phil O'Connor wrote:

> But everything I see in marine tank instruction and/or sales always includes
> all three filters: mechnical, chemical, bio. Although I can understand how
> some may adopt an alternate philosophy do to away with mechanical (as explained
> here), its not actually considered 'wrong' for marine tanks, is it? Its still
> the conventional wisdom for marine, no?

Who prints those marine tank instruction booklets? Who's not going to try to sell
you a product that will make life great? It often times comes down to experience
and application to determine what works and what doesn't.

A mechanical filter only works up to a point, but is limited and needs proper
maintenance in a timely fashion. If you want to run mechanical filtration, go for
it. You'll simply need to clean it out every often. I used to run two Magnum 350
canister filters on the 55g setup I bought, and every 3 days I pulled it apart to
rinse the hell out of those sponge foam pads, to get the brown crap out of the
cotton (wool?) media. And that took about 10 minutes per pad. I even resorted to
soaking them in bleach water (10:1) which worked but took longer to rinse well.

You will find that most reef tanks do not use mechanical filtration because it
isn't necessary if the system is set up correctly.

> And we havent even talked about chemical. I see Marc has done away with that
> too. Whats the theory behind that? Chemical is just for odor elimination, isnt
> it? So there's no danger without it, just smells. So, Marc, are you living
> with tank odors, or does your system handle that naturally too?

The only smell I ever smell is when my sump gets too low (evaporation) and LR is
exposed to the air. It should be, but occasionally I forget to top off and the
smell of LR is a great reminder. ;) My living room has two tanks, so it does get
a bit humid in there, but there is no smell.

> Does DSB house ALL types of necessary bacteria? So it can stand alone as
> biofilter? Or is LR needed with it?

To get the best natural filtration, the suggested course is a 4"-6" DSB and
1-1.5lbs per gallon of LR.

> I gotta say, I've been at this over 2 years now, and research constantly, but
> every now and then, I get input that reduces me back to feeling like I know
> nothing :-)

Don't worry about that. We learn more every day, and sometimes find out what we
thought was a good idea has proven to be a bad course of action. We adjust, and
move forward and help others avoid those pitfalls too.

Marc



--
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[Phil]

Thanks Marc, I appreciate the input.

And just so my name isnt synomymous with frustration and problems :-),
allow me to boast my nano reef is doing remarkably well, with very little
maintenance at all. What I just realized the other day is that I havent
scraped algae of the glass of that nano in about a year and a half!!!
Never had hair, never had slime, glass is crystal clear naturally. And my
torch coral is so healthy its taking over the whole tank.

Looks like I do in fact have some denitrification finally occuring in
there. Nitrates arent zero, but they entirely under control (with no
skimmer!). So I do have some success under my belt :-)

Cheers,
Phil

[Marc Levenson]

Phil, can you post some links to a few pictures perhaps? I clean the glass on
my tanks every 3 or 4 days, so I can enjoy my livestock. Plus, coralline will
build up if I'm not vigilant.

Marc


Phil wrote:

> Thanks Marc, I appreciate the input.
>
> And just so my name isnt synomymous with frustration and problems :-),
> allow me to boast my nano reef is doing remarkably well, with very little
> maintenance at all. What I just realized the other day is that I havent
> scraped algae of the glass of that nano in about a year and a half!!!
> Never had hair, never had slime, glass is crystal clear naturally. And my
> torch coral is so healthy its taking over the whole tank.
>
> Looks like I do in fact have some denitrification finally occuring in
> there. Nitrates arent zero, but they entirely under control (with no
> skimmer!). So I do have some success under my belt :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Phil

--
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Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Phil]

I really gotta get with this century and get a digital camera. Sorry, no
pics at this time. But I was curious about why that glass would be
maintenance free, so I spent some time investigating/contemplating last
night. I found the answer. Janitorial crew! :-)

That tank had a boom of snail births a long time ago. The thing is hugely
populated with tiny little pebble sized snails. I can count over one
hundred in plain view very easily, so there's probably at least 10 times
that many hidden in the rockwork (in a 7g nano!). There's 22 on the
glass right now, and you dont even notice them, they're so small. So when
I look closely at the glass, I do indeed see a light dusting of algae
with thousands of little snail lick marks taking it away.

I remember when that population explosion happened, I got excited
thinking that could be my incubator for supplying snails to my big tank.
But, no, they grow too slowly. I did get 10 mexican turbo snails for my
big tank yesterday. My trigger is already harassing them. I even
sheltered them under rock when I put them in, to give them a safe
orientation period, but he broke thru. I just dont get how to maintain a
janitorial crew in a tank with a predator. There's a few snails and
crabs in there that the trigger has never bothered, dunno why, but new
ones he attacks right away.

Phil



Marc Levenson > wrote in
:

> Phil, can you post some links to a few pictures perhaps? I clean the
> glass on my tanks every 3 or 4 days, so I can enjoy my livestock.
> Plus, coralline will build up if I'm not vigilant.
>
> Marc
>
>
> Phil wrote:
>
>> Thanks Marc, I appreciate the input.
>>
>> And just so my name isnt synomymous with frustration and problems
>> :-), allow me to boast my nano reef is doing remarkably well, with
>> very little maintenance at all. What I just realized the other day is
>> that I havent scraped algae of the glass of that nano in about a year
>> and a half!!! Never had hair, never had slime, glass is crystal clear
>> naturally. And my torch coral is so healthy its taking over the
>> whole tank.
>>
>> Looks like I do in fact have some denitrification finally occuring in
>> there. Nitrates arent zero, but they entirely under control (with no
>> skimmer!). So I do have some success under my belt :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Phil
>
> --
> Personal Page:
> http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page:
> http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist:
> http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>
>

[CapFusion]

"Phil" > wrote in message
...
> I really gotta get with this century and get a digital camera. Sorry, no
> pics at this time. But I was curious about why that glass would be
> maintenance free, so I spent some time investigating/contemplating last
> night. I found the answer. Janitorial crew! :-)
>
> That tank had a boom of snail births a long time ago. The thing is hugely
> populated with tiny little pebble sized snails. I can count over one
> hundred in plain view very easily, so there's probably at least 10 times
> that many hidden in the rockwork (in a 7g nano!). There's 22 on the
> glass right now, and you dont even notice them, they're so small. So when
> I look closely at the glass, I do indeed see a light dusting of algae
> with thousands of little snail lick marks taking it away.
>
> I remember when that population explosion happened, I got excited
> thinking that could be my incubator for supplying snails to my big tank.
> But, no, they grow too slowly. I did get 10 mexican turbo snails for my
> big tank yesterday. My trigger is already harassing them. I even
> sheltered them under rock when I put them in, to give them a safe
> orientation period, but he broke thru. I just dont get how to maintain a
> janitorial crew in a tank with a predator. There's a few snails and
> crabs in there that the trigger has never bothered, dunno why, but new
> ones he attacks right away.
>
Seem like you doing OK except for the algae problem you mention in earlier
post. Maybe considering those algae doing you a favor by obsorbing those
nutrient. I am not what else to add except for those I mention to you.

CapFusion,...

[CapFusion]

"Phil" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks Marc, I appreciate the input.
>
> And just so my name isnt synomymous with frustration and problems :-),
> allow me to boast my nano reef is doing remarkably well, with very little
> maintenance at all. What I just realized the other day is that I havent
> scraped algae of the glass of that nano in about a year and a half!!!
> Never had hair, never had slime, glass is crystal clear naturally. And my
> torch coral is so healthy its taking over the whole tank.

This sound good. Only if those snail will take care of the sand bed and rock
and not just the glass.


> Looks like I do in fact have some denitrification finally occuring in
> there. Nitrates arent zero, but they entirely under control (with no
> skimmer!). So I do have some success under my belt :-)

You might need some scavenager to roam your bottom tank to take out decay or
uneaten food. This probably the answer to your problem of nitrate. Maybe you
might consider a PS.

CapFusion,...

[Phil]

"CapFusion" <CapFusion...@hotmail..,com> wrote in
:

><snip>
>> Looks like I do in fact have some denitrification finally occuring in
>> there. Nitrates arent zero, but they entirely under control (with no
>> skimmer!). So I do have some success under my belt :-)
>
> You might need some scavenager to roam your bottom tank to take out
> decay or uneaten food. This probably the answer to your problem of
> nitrate. Maybe you might consider a PS.
>
> CapFusion,...
>

Actually, I've counted up to 4 peanut worms in my nano reef, and at least
one of them is in the sand bed. I dont find that I have a nitrate
problem in this tank. They used to be higher than they are now, but I
see they've declined naturally, leading me to believe some
denitrification is happening. I have a DSB in this tank, as much as you
can in a 7 gal, and looks like its finally doing something.

No PS on that tank please. The whole reason I went with nano was to
avoid the spiraling costs of a reef. I anticipated disaster, so I wanted
to keep that disaster on a smaller scale. And lo and behold, its a
booming success. If I'm to introduce a skimmer, I'll go with a larger
tank, because my corals have outgrown this one (primarily my torch).
Actually, I've outgrown both tanks, my Naso is really wanting out now as
she's maturing.

But I gotta be firm! Bigger tanks mean thousands more dollars and more
hassles. I need to donate my naso to a better home (but I love her!),
and learn how to frag a torch without shattering its skeleton.

[CapFusion]

"Phil" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Actually, I've counted up to 4 peanut worms in my nano reef, and at least
> one of them is in the sand bed. I dont find that I have a nitrate
> problem in this tank. They used to be higher than they are now, but I
> see they've declined naturally, leading me to believe some
> denitrification is happening. I have a DSB in this tank, as much as you
> can in a 7 gal, and looks like its finally doing something.
>
> No PS on that tank please. The whole reason I went with nano was to
> avoid the spiraling costs of a reef. I anticipated disaster, so I wanted
> to keep that disaster on a smaller scale. And lo and behold, its a
> booming success. If I'm to introduce a skimmer, I'll go with a larger
> tank, because my corals have outgrown this one (primarily my torch).
> Actually, I've outgrown both tanks, my Naso is really wanting out now as
> she's maturing.
>
> But I gotta be firm! Bigger tanks mean thousands more dollars and more
> hassles. I need to donate my naso to a better home (but I love her!),
> and learn how to frag a torch without shattering its skeleton.
>
My tank is skimmerless but it does not mean I do not have PS at hand if it
go out-of-control, especially nano tank. PS is just there as a backup or a
safety-net.

CapFusion,...