Effect of too many fish

[Jim Morcombe]

Comments invited. Do I have this right?

I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.

When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are
quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly.

After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria that
convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and
for the levels of nitrites to increase.

Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are
the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in anything).

When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce
ammonia.

If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of
bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough
bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish
quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish.

As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites
into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from Nitrites
to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead
before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the
Nitrite levels.

All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish.

Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it oftens
appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing
fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead at
an incredible rate.

This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over the
time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the excess
fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly begins
to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden, the
Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia level
has dropped to normal - and death strikes.

The solution (other than not over-stocking) is:
1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded. This
means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the increase
in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum.
2. daily water changes while over stocked
3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been removed.

Jim

[Dick]

My freshwater tanks are constantly above the one fish-inch per gallon
density. I change 20% of my water weekly. I keep the bottom full of
live plants and scavangers. I change filter bags rarely, but once a
month or two I clean out the bulk of the captured stuff with tank
temperature water. I change charcoal maybe in 3 months.

In short by not over feeding ( I feed all my fish with "Tetra Min"
flakes), having healthy live plants, regular water changes and keeping
the water temperature between 78 and 80 degrees.

I am very happy with my fish. They sometimes bunch up in swarms and
other times I have to look for them as they swim in the vegetation.
No bullying, good color and too many fry.

I really question "common knowledge" but do keep a close eye for signs
that I am being too careless. I have 5 tanks ranging from 10 to 75
gallons. The 75 gallon I have had over one year, the others around 9
months. The tanks went through the cycling woes, a bit of early ich,
but nothing bad in the last 6 months.



On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:03:39 +0800, "Jim Morcombe"
> wrote:

>Comments invited. Do I have this right?
>
>I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.
>
>When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are
>quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly.
>
>After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria that
>convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and
>for the levels of nitrites to increase.
>
>Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are
>the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in anything).
>
>When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce
>ammonia.
>
>If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of
>bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough
>bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish
>quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish.
>
>As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites
>into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from Nitrites
>to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead
>before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the
>Nitrite levels.
>
>All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish.
>
>Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it oftens
>appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing
>fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead at
>an incredible rate.
>
>This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over the
>time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the excess
>fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly begins
>to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden, the
>Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia level
>has dropped to normal - and death strikes.
>
>The solution (other than not over-stocking) is:
>1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded. This
>means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the increase
>in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum.
>2. daily water changes while over stocked
>3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been removed.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>

[NetMax]

"Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
...
> Comments invited. Do I have this right?
>
> I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.
>
> When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish
are
> quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead
quickly.
>
> After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria
that
> convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish
and
> for the levels of nitrites to increase.
>
> Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't
are
> the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in
anything).
>
> When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and
produce
> ammonia.
>
> If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of
> bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough
> bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish
> quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish.
>
> As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts
Nitrites
> into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from
Nitrites
> to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be
dead
> before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering
the
> Nitrite levels.
>
> All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish.
>
> Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it
oftens
> appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and
killing
> fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead
at
> an incredible rate.
>
> This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over
the
> time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the
excess
> fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly
begins
> to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden,
the
> Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia
level
> has dropped to normal - and death strikes.
>
> The solution (other than not over-stocking) is:
> 1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded.
This
> means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the
increase
> in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum.
> 2. daily water changes while over stocked
> 3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been
removed.
>
> Jim

I think you have this reasonably correct. There are also bacteria
seeding products, ammonia locking products and aquarium salt will help
fish deal with nitrites. I'd add that the amount of nitrifying bacteria
is directly functional to the amount of food being dropped in (the fish
are just a middleman, processing it to their waste products), so if you
double your fish load, but still feed the same amount, your nitrogen
chain is still very stable. Also the nitrites are being processed into
NO3 (nitrates). Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to
water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of
discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will be
fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other disease.
Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish are
fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day.

NetMax

[Jim Morcombe]

Dick

I have firmly reached the opinion that a stable over-stocked aquaroum is far
better than an aquarium that has a variable level of stocking.

I think that if you slowly raise the number of fish, the tank will slowly
grow to cope with it.

I also think that it depends on why you keep an aquarium.

If you are trying to breed something, then you need to be careful on
stocking levels.

If you want a good-looking and fun aquarium that is interesting to watch,
then over-stocking is sometimes a good idea. It forces fish to interact in
ways you may not see otherwise.

Jim

Dick > wrote in message
...
> My freshwater tanks are constantly above the one fish-inch per gallon
> density. I change 20% of my water weekly. I keep the bottom full of
> live plants and scavangers. I change filter bags rarely, but once a
> month or two I clean out the bulk of the captured stuff with tank
> temperature water. I change charcoal maybe in 3 months.
>
> In short by not over feeding ( I feed all my fish with "Tetra Min"
> flakes), having healthy live plants, regular water changes and keeping
> the water temperature between 78 and 80 degrees.
>
> I am very happy with my fish. They sometimes bunch up in swarms and
> other times I have to look for them as they swim in the vegetation.
> No bullying, good color and too many fry.
>
> I really question "common knowledge" but do keep a close eye for signs
> that I am being too careless. I have 5 tanks ranging from 10 to 75
> gallons. The 75 gallon I have had over one year, the others around 9
> months. The tanks went through the cycling woes, a bit of early ich,
> but nothing bad in the last 6 months.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:03:39 +0800, "Jim Morcombe"
> > wrote:
>
> >Comments invited. Do I have this right?
> >
> >I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.
> >
> >When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are
> >quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly.
> >
> >After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria
that
> >convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and
> >for the levels of nitrites to increase.
> >
> >Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are
> >the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in
anything).
> >
> >When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce
> >ammonia.
> >
> >If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of
> >bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough
> >bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish
> >quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish.
> >
> >As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites
> >into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from
Nitrites
> >to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead
> >before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the
> >Nitrite levels.
> >
> >All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish.
> >
> >Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it
oftens
> >appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing
> >fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead
at
> >an incredible rate.
> >
> >This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over
the
> >time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the
excess
> >fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly
begins
> >to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden,
the
> >Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia
level
> >has dropped to normal - and death strikes.
> >
> >The solution (other than not over-stocking) is:
> >1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded.
This
> >means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the
increase
> >in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum.
> >2. daily water changes while over stocked
> >3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been
removed.
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[NetMax]

"Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
...
> Dick
>
> I have firmly reached the opinion that a stable over-stocked aquaroum
is far
> better than an aquarium that has a variable level of stocking.
>
> I think that if you slowly raise the number of fish, the tank will
slowly
> grow to cope with it.
>
> I also think that it depends on why you keep an aquarium.
>
> If you are trying to breed something, then you need to be careful on
> stocking levels.
>
> If you want a good-looking and fun aquarium that is interesting to
watch,
> then over-stocking is sometimes a good idea. It forces fish to
interact in
> ways you may not see otherwise.
>
> Jim

oooh, forcing fish interaction....controversial stuff. I'm a firm
believer in that as soon as you get the basics down, research &
experiment, with discretion.

On overstocking, I once filled a 135g with a box of Platys. These are
fish which didn't mind being a little crowded. The tank was aged, lots
of petrified wood (keeping the water a little hard just like Platys
prefer), Java ferns and I kept a bit of salt in the water. Filtration
was with two 404s, connected to UGF plates covered by river stones
(always vacuuming the bottom that way). Platys were about 1-1/2 inches
long when they went in. I lost about 4 to Ich (and they were the only
ones who ever showed any symptoms) and about a dozen to bacterial
infections they brought with them (over about 4 months, symptom was
wasting away). The rest of them were fine, excellent activity, appetite
and tons of babies. Because my change in stocking level was abrupt (I
went from zero to emptying a box of fish in there), we did do a lot of
water changes, and we were testing the water twice a day for a month.

There are 900 Platys in a box, do the math ;~) We emptied the tank when
the Platys were becoming too difficult to catch to sell (there were about
80 left).

ps: this was a commercial tank, under almost continuous observation,
don't try this at home.
NetMax

[Dick]

I worried early on when the tanks grew in population, some due to
surviving babies, some due to stupid ordering. (I buy everything over
the internet) I haven't ordered new fish for over 6 months, so I
think this is part of my tanks' stability. The fry increase in size
slowly probably helps.

Glad to have your view.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:13:38 +0800, "Jim Morcombe"
> wrote:

>Dick
>
>I have firmly reached the opinion that a stable over-stocked aquaroum is far
>better than an aquarium that has a variable level of stocking.
>
>I think that if you slowly raise the number of fish, the tank will slowly
>grow to cope with it.
>
>I also think that it depends on why you keep an aquarium.
>
>If you are trying to breed something, then you need to be careful on
>stocking levels.
>
>If you want a good-looking and fun aquarium that is interesting to watch,
>then over-stocking is sometimes a good idea. It forces fish to interact in
>ways you may not see otherwise.
>
>Jim
>
>Dick > wrote in message
...
>> My freshwater tanks are constantly above the one fish-inch per gallon
>> density. I change 20% of my water weekly. I keep the bottom full of
>> live plants and scavangers. I change filter bags rarely, but once a
>> month or two I clean out the bulk of the captured stuff with tank
>> temperature water. I change charcoal maybe in 3 months.
>>
>> In short by not over feeding ( I feed all my fish with "Tetra Min"
>> flakes), having healthy live plants, regular water changes and keeping
>> the water temperature between 78 and 80 degrees.
>>
>> I am very happy with my fish. They sometimes bunch up in swarms and
>> other times I have to look for them as they swim in the vegetation.
>> No bullying, good color and too many fry.
>>
>> I really question "common knowledge" but do keep a close eye for signs
>> that I am being too careless. I have 5 tanks ranging from 10 to 75
>> gallons. The 75 gallon I have had over one year, the others around 9
>> months. The tanks went through the cycling woes, a bit of early ich,
>> but nothing bad in the last 6 months.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:03:39 +0800, "Jim Morcombe"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Comments invited. Do I have this right?
>> >
>> >I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.
>> >
>> >When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are
>> >quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly.
>> >
>> >After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria
>that
>> >convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and
>> >for the levels of nitrites to increase.
>> >
>> >Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are
>> >the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in
>anything).
>> >
>> >When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce
>> >ammonia.
>> >
>> >If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of
>> >bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough
>> >bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish
>> >quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish.
>> >
>> >As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites
>> >into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from
>Nitrites
>> >to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead
>> >before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the
>> >Nitrite levels.
>> >
>> >All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish.
>> >
>> >Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it
>oftens
>> >appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing
>> >fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead
>at
>> >an incredible rate.
>> >
>> >This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over
>the
>> >time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the
>excess
>> >fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly
>begins
>> >to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden,
>the
>> >Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia
>level
>> >has dropped to normal - and death strikes.
>> >
>> >The solution (other than not over-stocking) is:
>> >1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded.
>This
>> >means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the
>increase
>> >in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum.
>> >2. daily water changes while over stocked
>> >3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been
>removed.
>> >
>> >Jim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>

[Michi Henning]

--

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Comments invited. Do I have this right?
> >
> > I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.
> >
> > When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish
> are
> > quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead
> quickly.

Once comment: if you keep the pH below 7.2 or so, almost all
the ammonia is present as ammonium (the NH4+ ion of ammonia) instead
of as "real" ammonia (NH3). Ammonium is much less toxic than ammonia.
But, of course, once the ammonium (or ammonia) get converted to nitrite,
the fish will die of the nitrite spike...

> Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to
> water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of
> discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will be
> fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other disease.
> Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish are
> fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day.


Interesting -- I didn't know that. Might help to explain why I had the
odd inexplicable death among new arrivals. (My tank was at zero nitrates
for quite a while before I wised up and started dosing nitrates -- I
now keep nitrates at around 10-15ppm.) I suspect that 40ppm or more
wouldn't be unusual in many fish shops. I think I'll test the water I bring
the fish home in next time. Might learn something new that way.

Now, here is the real question: say I just bought a bunch of fish
and they are swimming in 60ppm nitrate. Now, how do I get those
into my 10ppm tank without killing them? I normally acclimatise
new arrivals over about an hour, gradually adding small amounts
of tank water to the bag and then transfer the fish. But I suspect
that an hour is too short to overcome a 50ppm change in nitrates...

Cheers,

Michi.

[NetMax]

"Michi Henning" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> --
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Comments invited. Do I have this right?
> > >
> > > I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.
> > >
> > > When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most
fish
> > are
> > > quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead
> > quickly.
>
> Once comment: if you keep the pH below 7.2 or so, almost all
> the ammonia is present as ammonium (the NH4+ ion of ammonia) instead
> of as "real" ammonia (NH3). Ammonium is much less toxic than ammonia.
> But, of course, once the ammonium (or ammonia) get converted to
nitrite,
> the fish will die of the nitrite spike...
>
> > Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to
> > water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of
> > discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will
be
> > fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other
disease.
> > Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish
are
> > fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day.
>
>
> Interesting -- I didn't know that. Might help to explain why I had the
> odd inexplicable death among new arrivals. (My tank was at zero
nitrates
> for quite a while before I wised up and started dosing nitrates -- I
> now keep nitrates at around 10-15ppm.) I suspect that 40ppm or more
> wouldn't be unusual in many fish shops. I think I'll test the water I
bring
> the fish home in next time. Might learn something new that way.
>
> Now, here is the real question: say I just bought a bunch of fish
> and they are swimming in 60ppm nitrate. Now, how do I get those
> into my 10ppm tank without killing them? I normally acclimatise
> new arrivals over about an hour, gradually adding small amounts
> of tank water to the bag and then transfer the fish. But I suspect
> that an hour is too short to overcome a 50ppm change in nitrates...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michi.

Good question. A lot depends on the cost of the fish, the size of the
fish and the difference in water parameters. The smaller or more
expensive, or the greater the difference, the slower you want to
acclimate them. Also the conversion from hard water to soft water is
harder than the reverse.

If I'm buying a $100 fish, I show up with a styrofoam box. Inside the
box they put 1 bag of water with the fish, and 3 or 4 bags of only water.
The extra water bags helps keep the temperature uniform while travelling,
and I use it to fill a small aquarium about 50%. This quarantine
aquarium has a small submerged filter, and a small submerged heater (this
allows me to have the water level as low as I like, which often happens
when I'm using partial LFS water to acclimate. Be sure to water test the
LFS water when you get home (from the bag with no fish, as the fish bag
will be skewed due to the CO2 and ammonia released). For 2-3 days, I try
to do nothing, then over the next few days, I start adding my tank/source
water. Your % of tank/source water depends on your tank conditions and
where you want to eventually end up. Laborious.. yes, and it needs the
patience of a saint, but it is very successful. I hope this gives you
some ideas.

cheers
NetMax

[Michi Henning]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .

> If I'm buying a $100 fish, I show up with a styrofoam box. Inside the
> box they put 1 bag of water with the fish, and 3 or 4 bags of only water.
> The extra water bags helps keep the temperature uniform while travelling,
> and I use it to fill a small aquarium about 50%. This quarantine
> aquarium has a small submerged filter, and a small submerged heater (this
> allows me to have the water level as low as I like, which often happens
> when I'm using partial LFS water to acclimate. Be sure to water test the
> LFS water when you get home (from the bag with no fish, as the fish bag
> will be skewed due to the CO2 and ammonia released). For 2-3 days, I try
> to do nothing, then over the next few days, I start adding my tank/source
> water. Your % of tank/source water depends on your tank conditions and
> where you want to eventually end up. Laborious.. yes, and it needs the
> patience of a saint, but it is very successful. I hope this gives you
> some ideas.

Yes it does, thanks! Now all I have to do is work out whether I'm enough
of a saint to actually to this... :-)

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Jim Morcombe]

I always keep as many plants in a tank as I can. This seems to help with
the nitrates, but not with the nitrites.

I do this because I like plants and the fish like the plants.

I have bought fish from people that call themselves breeders and they have
completely empty tanks except for the fish. I couldn't ever do this.

Mind you, its pretty hard to catch fish in my tanks. It becomes quite a
game with many people involved everytime we want to catch something.
Invariably someone gets excited and destroys a plant or something just to
catch the fish.

Jim


NetMax > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Comments invited. Do I have this right?
> >
> > I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.
> >
> > When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish
> are
> > quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead
> quickly.
> >
> > After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria
> that
> > convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish
> and
> > for the levels of nitrites to increase.
> >
> > Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't
> are
> > the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in
> anything).
> >
> > When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and
> produce
> > ammonia.
> >
> > If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of
> > bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough
> > bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish
> > quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish.
> >
> > As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts
> Nitrites
> > into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from
> Nitrites
> > to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be
> dead
> > before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering
> the
> > Nitrite levels.
> >
> > All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish.
> >
> > Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it
> oftens
> > appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and
> killing
> > fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead
> at
> > an incredible rate.
> >
> > This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over
> the
> > time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the
> excess
> > fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly
> begins
> > to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden,
> the
> > Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia
> level
> > has dropped to normal - and death strikes.
> >
> > The solution (other than not over-stocking) is:
> > 1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded.
> This
> > means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the
> increase
> > in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum.
> > 2. daily water changes while over stocked
> > 3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been
> removed.
> >
> > Jim
>
> I think you have this reasonably correct. There are also bacteria
> seeding products, ammonia locking products and aquarium salt will help
> fish deal with nitrites. I'd add that the amount of nitrifying bacteria
> is directly functional to the amount of food being dropped in (the fish
> are just a middleman, processing it to their waste products), so if you
> double your fish load, but still feed the same amount, your nitrogen
> chain is still very stable. Also the nitrites are being processed into
> NO3 (nitrates). Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to
> water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of
> discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will be
> fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other disease.
> Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish are
> fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day.
>
> NetMax
>
>

[Jim Morcombe]

NetMax

That sounds like great advice.

How small is your "small" aquarium.
Does the LFS ever give you lip about the empty bags?

Jim


NetMax > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Michi Henning" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > >
> > > "Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Comments invited. Do I have this right?
> > > >
> > > > I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.
> > > >
> > > > When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most
> fish
> > > are
> > > > quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead
> > > quickly.
> >
> > Once comment: if you keep the pH below 7.2 or so, almost all
> > the ammonia is present as ammonium (the NH4+ ion of ammonia) instead
> > of as "real" ammonia (NH3). Ammonium is much less toxic than ammonia.
> > But, of course, once the ammonium (or ammonia) get converted to
> nitrite,
> > the fish will die of the nitrite spike...
> >
> > > Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to
> > > water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of
> > > discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will
> be
> > > fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other
> disease.
> > > Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish
> are
> > > fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day.
> >
> >
> > Interesting -- I didn't know that. Might help to explain why I had the
> > odd inexplicable death among new arrivals. (My tank was at zero
> nitrates
> > for quite a while before I wised up and started dosing nitrates -- I
> > now keep nitrates at around 10-15ppm.) I suspect that 40ppm or more
> > wouldn't be unusual in many fish shops. I think I'll test the water I
> bring
> > the fish home in next time. Might learn something new that way.
> >
> > Now, here is the real question: say I just bought a bunch of fish
> > and they are swimming in 60ppm nitrate. Now, how do I get those
> > into my 10ppm tank without killing them? I normally acclimatise
> > new arrivals over about an hour, gradually adding small amounts
> > of tank water to the bag and then transfer the fish. But I suspect
> > that an hour is too short to overcome a 50ppm change in nitrates...
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Michi.
>
> Good question. A lot depends on the cost of the fish, the size of the
> fish and the difference in water parameters. The smaller or more
> expensive, or the greater the difference, the slower you want to
> acclimate them. Also the conversion from hard water to soft water is
> harder than the reverse.
>
> If I'm buying a $100 fish, I show up with a styrofoam box. Inside the
> box they put 1 bag of water with the fish, and 3 or 4 bags of only water.
> The extra water bags helps keep the temperature uniform while travelling,
> and I use it to fill a small aquarium about 50%. This quarantine
> aquarium has a small submerged filter, and a small submerged heater (this
> allows me to have the water level as low as I like, which often happens
> when I'm using partial LFS water to acclimate. Be sure to water test the
> LFS water when you get home (from the bag with no fish, as the fish bag
> will be skewed due to the CO2 and ammonia released). For 2-3 days, I try
> to do nothing, then over the next few days, I start adding my tank/source
> water. Your % of tank/source water depends on your tank conditions and
> where you want to eventually end up. Laborious.. yes, and it needs the
> patience of a saint, but it is very successful. I hope this gives you
> some ideas.
>
> cheers
> NetMax
>
>

[NetMax]

"Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
...
> I always keep as many plants in a tank as I can. This seems to help
with
> the nitrates, but not with the nitrites.
>
> I do this because I like plants and the fish like the plants.
>
> I have bought fish from people that call themselves breeders and they
have
> completely empty tanks except for the fish. I couldn't ever do this.
>
> Mind you, its pretty hard to catch fish in my tanks. It becomes quite
a
> game with many people involved everytime we want to catch something.
> Invariably someone gets excited and destroys a plant or something just
to
> catch the fish.
>
> Jim
<snip>

The technique (I use) to catching fish in planted tanks is to use 2 nets.
Enter both nets very slowly into the tank. Position the first net
between the glass and a natural obstacle (rock, plant, driftwood etc),
and keep it absolutely still. The 2nd net is the chaser, and it slowly
manoeuvres the fish into a small crowd. Push the fish forwards around
the back of the obstacle and around the front of the tank. When the
corralled fish at the front see the 2nd waiting net, gently wiggle the
chaser net behind them to push them forward. This cause the fish in the
back of the corral, to rush forward, so the whole crowd gets the extra
urgency to move forwards. Fish will always react to the moving net, and
when bunched up, will tend to continue moving as a group, because to
escape from the group can be a greater risk. Too fast and they all
scatter, too slow and they catch on, but at the right speed, you can push
most of the contents of your tank right into the waiting net. I
regularly do this at work, scooping a dozen Neons or other tetras at a
time. There are other ways (dropping your water level, using a pail and
traps, etc), everyone has their favourite techniques.

NetMax

[Dick]

I float plants with lead weights in my Q tank. My community tanks
have open space in front. So, to not ravage my plants, I use a probe
to flush the wanted fish to the front. It takes patients, but I don't
damage the plants. I like my plants almost as much as my fish.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:09:24 +0800, "Jim Morcombe"
> wrote:

>I always keep as many plants in a tank as I can. This seems to help with
>the nitrates, but not with the nitrites.
>
>I do this because I like plants and the fish like the plants.
>
>I have bought fish from people that call themselves breeders and they have
>completely empty tanks except for the fish. I couldn't ever do this.
>
>Mind you, its pretty hard to catch fish in my tanks. It becomes quite a
>game with many people involved everytime we want to catch something.
>Invariably someone gets excited and destroys a plant or something just to
>catch the fish.
>
>Jim
>
>
>NetMax > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>> "Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Comments invited. Do I have this right?
>> >
>> > I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while.
>> >
>> > When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish
>> are
>> > quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead
>> quickly.
>> >
>> > After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria
>> that
>> > convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish
>> and
>> > for the levels of nitrites to increase.
>> >
>> > Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't
>> are
>> > the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in
>> anything).
>> >
>> > When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and
>> produce
>> > ammonia.
>> >
>> > If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of
>> > bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough
>> > bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish
>> > quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish.
>> >
>> > As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts
>> Nitrites
>> > into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from
>> Nitrites
>> > to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be
>> dead
>> > before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering
>> the
>> > Nitrite levels.
>> >
>> > All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish.
>> >
>> > Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it
>> oftens
>> > appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and
>> killing
>> > fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead
>> at
>> > an incredible rate.
>> >
>> > This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over
>> the
>> > time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the
>> excess
>> > fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly
>> begins
>> > to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden,
>> the
>> > Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia
>> level
>> > has dropped to normal - and death strikes.
>> >
>> > The solution (other than not over-stocking) is:
>> > 1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded.
>> This
>> > means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the
>> increase
>> > in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum.
>> > 2. daily water changes while over stocked
>> > 3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been
>> removed.
>> >
>> > Jim
>>
>> I think you have this reasonably correct. There are also bacteria
>> seeding products, ammonia locking products and aquarium salt will help
>> fish deal with nitrites. I'd add that the amount of nitrifying bacteria
>> is directly functional to the amount of food being dropped in (the fish
>> are just a middleman, processing it to their waste products), so if you
>> double your fish load, but still feed the same amount, your nitrogen
>> chain is still very stable. Also the nitrites are being processed into
>> NO3 (nitrates). Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to
>> water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of
>> discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will be
>> fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other disease.
>> Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish are
>> fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day.
>>
>> NetMax
>>
>>
>

[Dick]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:41:50 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>
>"Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
...
>> I always keep as many plants in a tank as I can. This seems to help
>with
>> the nitrates, but not with the nitrites.
>>
>> I do this because I like plants and the fish like the plants.
>>
>> I have bought fish from people that call themselves breeders and they
>have
>> completely empty tanks except for the fish. I couldn't ever do this.
>>
>> Mind you, its pretty hard to catch fish in my tanks. It becomes quite
>a
>> game with many people involved everytime we want to catch something.
>> Invariably someone gets excited and destroys a plant or something just
>to
>> catch the fish.
>>
>> Jim
><snip>
>
>The technique (I use) to catching fish in planted tanks is to use 2 nets.
>Enter both nets very slowly into the tank. Position the first net
>between the glass and a natural obstacle (rock, plant, driftwood etc),
>and keep it absolutely still. The 2nd net is the chaser, and it slowly
>manoeuvres the fish into a small crowd. Push the fish forwards around
>the back of the obstacle and around the front of the tank. When the
>corralled fish at the front see the 2nd waiting net, gently wiggle the
>chaser net behind them to push them forward. This cause the fish in the
>back of the corral, to rush forward, so the whole crowd gets the extra
>urgency to move forwards. Fish will always react to the moving net, and
>when bunched up, will tend to continue moving as a group, because to
>escape from the group can be a greater risk. Too fast and they all
>scatter, too slow and they catch on, but at the right speed, you can push
>most of the contents of your tank right into the waiting net. I
>regularly do this at work, scooping a dozen Neons or other tetras at a
>time. There are other ways (dropping your water level, using a pail and
>traps, etc), everyone has their favourite techniques.
>
>NetMax
>
I think you miss the point, a net is too big to manuever among plants
without damage. A probe can move amongst the plants just pushing
leaves aside. Two nets works if the manuever space is big and the
wanted fish stays out of the "rough". Darn wanted fish always seem to
understand strategy as well as I do.

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:41:50 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I always keep as many plants in a tank as I can. This seems to help
> >with
> >> the nitrates, but not with the nitrites.
> >>
> >> I do this because I like plants and the fish like the plants.
> >>
> >> I have bought fish from people that call themselves breeders and
they
> >have
> >> completely empty tanks except for the fish. I couldn't ever do
this.
> >>
> >> Mind you, its pretty hard to catch fish in my tanks. It becomes
quite
> >a
> >> game with many people involved everytime we want to catch something.
> >> Invariably someone gets excited and destroys a plant or something
just
> >to
> >> catch the fish.
> >>
> >> Jim
> ><snip>
> >
> >The technique (I use) to catching fish in planted tanks is to use 2
nets.
> >Enter both nets very slowly into the tank. Position the first net
> >between the glass and a natural obstacle (rock, plant, driftwood etc),
> >and keep it absolutely still. The 2nd net is the chaser, and it
slowly
> >manoeuvres the fish into a small crowd. Push the fish forwards around
> >the back of the obstacle and around the front of the tank. When the
> >corralled fish at the front see the 2nd waiting net, gently wiggle the
> >chaser net behind them to push them forward. This cause the fish in
the
> >back of the corral, to rush forward, so the whole crowd gets the extra
> >urgency to move forwards. Fish will always react to the moving net,
and
> >when bunched up, will tend to continue moving as a group, because to
> >escape from the group can be a greater risk. Too fast and they all
> >scatter, too slow and they catch on, but at the right speed, you can
push
> >most of the contents of your tank right into the waiting net. I
> >regularly do this at work, scooping a dozen Neons or other tetras at a
> >time. There are other ways (dropping your water level, using a pail
and
> >traps, etc), everyone has their favourite techniques.
> >
> >NetMax
> >
> I think you miss the point, a net is too big to manuever among plants
> without damage. A probe can move amongst the plants just pushing
> leaves aside. Two nets works if the manuever space is big and the
> wanted fish stays out of the "rough". Darn wanted fish always seem to
> understand strategy as well as I do.

I don't have as much luck with a probe (I reverse the net, so the chaser
is a net handle), because when they see the waiting net, it's more of a
threat than the chasing probe. For really difficult fish, be sneaky.
Drop in some ornament with caves, and when the fish (ie: loaches) are in,
cover the opening to the cave and lift the ornament out ;~) I also set
traps. Simplest one is a large net, held horizontally about 2" below the
surface. Leave it there for a day or 2. Always feed directly above the
net. Eventually, the smarter fish (who are the ones you want, but they
avoid the net) figure the dumb fish are getting all the food (because the
dumb fish swim into the net area and eat first), and everyone becomes
bolder. Then it's all in the wrist action. There are also various
sinking traps, home made or sold on the internet, however the traps
usually have very little circulation, so prolonged capture can lead to
suffocation, ymmv.

And some fish seem to view all my futile efforts as just a new form of
entertainment. For them, I've considered dynamite *sigh*.

NetMax

[Michi Henning]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .


> For really difficult fish, be sneaky.
> Drop in some ornament with caves, and when the fish (ie: loaches) are in,
> cover the opening to the cave and lift the ornament out ;~) I also set
> traps. Simplest one is a large net, held horizontally about 2" below the
> surface. Leave it there for a day or 2. Always feed directly above the
> net. Eventually, the smarter fish (who are the ones you want, but they
> avoid the net) figure the dumb fish are getting all the food (because the
> dumb fish swim into the net area and eat first), and everyone becomes
> bolder. Then it's all in the wrist action.

Oh my, the thrill of the chase! :-)

> And some fish seem to view all my futile efforts as just a new form of
> entertainment. For them, I've considered dynamite *sigh*.

Good to see that even the professional hunter can still, on occasion,
be humbled :-)

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Dick]

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 09:56:50 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:41:50 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> I always keep as many plants in a tank as I can. This seems to help
>> >with
>> >> the nitrates, but not with the nitrites.
>> >>
>> >> I do this because I like plants and the fish like the plants.
>> >>
>> >> I have bought fish from people that call themselves breeders and
>they
>> >have
>> >> completely empty tanks except for the fish. I couldn't ever do
>this.
>> >>
>> >> Mind you, its pretty hard to catch fish in my tanks. It becomes
>quite
>> >a
>> >> game with many people involved everytime we want to catch something.
>> >> Invariably someone gets excited and destroys a plant or something
>just
>> >to
>> >> catch the fish.
>> >>
>> >> Jim
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >The technique (I use) to catching fish in planted tanks is to use 2
>nets.
>> >Enter both nets very slowly into the tank. Position the first net
>> >between the glass and a natural obstacle (rock, plant, driftwood etc),
>> >and keep it absolutely still. The 2nd net is the chaser, and it
>slowly
>> >manoeuvres the fish into a small crowd. Push the fish forwards around
>> >the back of the obstacle and around the front of the tank. When the
>> >corralled fish at the front see the 2nd waiting net, gently wiggle the
>> >chaser net behind them to push them forward. This cause the fish in
>the
>> >back of the corral, to rush forward, so the whole crowd gets the extra
>> >urgency to move forwards. Fish will always react to the moving net,
>and
>> >when bunched up, will tend to continue moving as a group, because to
>> >escape from the group can be a greater risk. Too fast and they all
>> >scatter, too slow and they catch on, but at the right speed, you can
>push
>> >most of the contents of your tank right into the waiting net. I
>> >regularly do this at work, scooping a dozen Neons or other tetras at a
>> >time. There are other ways (dropping your water level, using a pail
>and
>> >traps, etc), everyone has their favourite techniques.
>> >
>> >NetMax
>> >
>> I think you miss the point, a net is too big to manuever among plants
>> without damage. A probe can move amongst the plants just pushing
>> leaves aside. Two nets works if the manuever space is big and the
>> wanted fish stays out of the "rough". Darn wanted fish always seem to
>> understand strategy as well as I do.
>
>I don't have as much luck with a probe (I reverse the net, so the chaser
>is a net handle), because when they see the waiting net, it's more of a
>threat than the chasing probe. For really difficult fish, be sneaky.
>Drop in some ornament with caves, and when the fish (ie: loaches) are in,
>cover the opening to the cave and lift the ornament out ;~) I also set
>traps. Simplest one is a large net, held horizontally about 2" below the
>surface. Leave it there for a day or 2. Always feed directly above the
>net. Eventually, the smarter fish (who are the ones you want, but they
>avoid the net) figure the dumb fish are getting all the food (because the
>dumb fish swim into the net area and eat first), and everyone becomes
>bolder. Then it's all in the wrist action. There are also various
>sinking traps, home made or sold on the internet, however the traps
>usually have very little circulation, so prolonged capture can lead to
>suffocation, ymmv.
>
>And some fish seem to view all my futile efforts as just a new form of
>entertainment. For them, I've considered dynamite *sigh*.
>
>NetMax
>

note my laughter! :-)

I know what you mean about the game playing. Fortunately most of my
netting is for a sick fish to move it to the Q tank. However, I do
move fish that are still very vital. "Trapping" is an interesting
approach, never considered it. When I go after a fish I usually want
it NOW.

I think your reversed net is much the same as a probe. My "probe" of
choice is one of those extended clutchers. They look big and bright
(orange) but move easily through the plants.

I find patience (for a few minutes) helpful. The game players can't
resist coming back for more.

[Hank Barta]

Michi Henning > wrote:
>
> I suspect that 40ppm or more wouldn't be unusual in many fish shops.

Why would you think that? Every time fish are sold from a tank,
some of the water is sold with them and replenished at the end of
the day. Except for tanks that hold low volume sellers, there is
probably about 25% water change in these tanks on a weekly basis.

Also the shops are more likely to underfeed than overfeed their stock.

What sort of conditions would be necessary to get ammonia up to 40ppm?

[Rick]

"Hank Barta" > wrote in message
news:PS7Xb.296918$I06.3042025@attbi_s01...
> Michi Henning > wrote:
> >
> > I suspect that 40ppm or more wouldn't be unusual in many fish shops.
>
> Why would you think that? Every time fish are sold from a tank,
> some of the water is sold with them and replenished at the end of
> the day. Except for tanks that hold low volume sellers, there is
> probably about 25% water change in these tanks on a weekly basis.
>
> Also the shops are more likely to underfeed than overfeed their stock.
>
> What sort of conditions would be necessary to get ammonia up to 40ppm?
>

how about when they receive their new shipments and dump about a 100 or more
guppies or Tetras into the tank. Large LFS may pay 99cents for a Cardinal
Tetra that they sell for $3.99 however to get that price they have to order
perhaps 500 or more. The losses are high due to initial ammonia spikes.

Rick

[NetMax]

"Hank Barta" > wrote in message
news:PS7Xb.296918$I06.3042025@attbi_s01...
> Michi Henning > wrote:
> >
> > I suspect that 40ppm or more wouldn't be unusual in many fish shops.
>
> Why would you think that? Every time fish are sold from a tank,
> some of the water is sold with them and replenished at the end of
> the day. Except for tanks that hold low volume sellers, there is
> probably about 25% water change in these tanks on a weekly basis.
>
> Also the shops are more likely to underfeed than overfeed their
stock.
>
> What sort of conditions would be necessary to get ammonia up to
40ppm?

Michi's 40ppm quotation is regarding NO3. I don't know of anything which
can live in 40ppm NH3 (ammonia).

Regarding LFS tanks, do some measurements. My tanks (LFS) are zero
NH3/4, zero NO2 and zero NO3. I run high fish loads, but have huge
biological filters, tons of plants and have 4 small water changes done
per day automatically. I don't think there are 2 stores which will be
the same. Take an empty bottle to the LFS and get a water sample of
their tank (because you want to match your water parameters to theirs ;~)
and then take it home and test it.

NetMax