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#1
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Comments invited. Do I have this right?
I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while. When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly. After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria that convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and for the levels of nitrites to increase. Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in anything). When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce ammonia. If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish. As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from Nitrites to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the Nitrite levels. All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish. Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it oftens appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead at an incredible rate. This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over the time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the excess fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly begins to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden, the Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia level has dropped to normal - and death strikes. The solution (other than not over-stocking) is: 1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded. This means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the increase in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum. 2. daily water changes while over stocked 3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been removed. Jim |
#2
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My freshwater tanks are constantly above the one fish-inch per gallon
density. I change 20% of my water weekly. I keep the bottom full of live plants and scavangers. I change filter bags rarely, but once a month or two I clean out the bulk of the captured stuff with tank temperature water. I change charcoal maybe in 3 months. In short by not over feeding ( I feed all my fish with "Tetra Min" flakes), having healthy live plants, regular water changes and keeping the water temperature between 78 and 80 degrees. I am very happy with my fish. They sometimes bunch up in swarms and other times I have to look for them as they swim in the vegetation. No bullying, good color and too many fry. I really question "common knowledge" but do keep a close eye for signs that I am being too careless. I have 5 tanks ranging from 10 to 75 gallons. The 75 gallon I have had over one year, the others around 9 months. The tanks went through the cycling woes, a bit of early ich, but nothing bad in the last 6 months. On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:03:39 +0800, "Jim Morcombe" wrote: Comments invited. Do I have this right? I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while. When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly. After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria that convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and for the levels of nitrites to increase. Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in anything). When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce ammonia. If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish. As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from Nitrites to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the Nitrite levels. All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish. Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it oftens appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead at an incredible rate. This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over the time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the excess fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly begins to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden, the Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia level has dropped to normal - and death strikes. The solution (other than not over-stocking) is: 1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded. This means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the increase in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum. 2. daily water changes while over stocked 3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been removed. Jim |
#3
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![]() "Jim Morcombe" wrote in message ... Comments invited. Do I have this right? I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while. When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly. After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria that convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and for the levels of nitrites to increase. Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in anything). When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce ammonia. If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish. As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from Nitrites to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the Nitrite levels. All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish. Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it oftens appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead at an incredible rate. This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over the time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the excess fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly begins to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden, the Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia level has dropped to normal - and death strikes. The solution (other than not over-stocking) is: 1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded. This means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the increase in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum. 2. daily water changes while over stocked 3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been removed. Jim I think you have this reasonably correct. There are also bacteria seeding products, ammonia locking products and aquarium salt will help fish deal with nitrites. I'd add that the amount of nitrifying bacteria is directly functional to the amount of food being dropped in (the fish are just a middleman, processing it to their waste products), so if you double your fish load, but still feed the same amount, your nitrogen chain is still very stable. Also the nitrites are being processed into NO3 (nitrates). Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will be fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other disease. Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish are fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day. NetMax |
#4
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Dick
I have firmly reached the opinion that a stable over-stocked aquaroum is far better than an aquarium that has a variable level of stocking. I think that if you slowly raise the number of fish, the tank will slowly grow to cope with it. I also think that it depends on why you keep an aquarium. If you are trying to breed something, then you need to be careful on stocking levels. If you want a good-looking and fun aquarium that is interesting to watch, then over-stocking is sometimes a good idea. It forces fish to interact in ways you may not see otherwise. Jim Dick wrote in message ... My freshwater tanks are constantly above the one fish-inch per gallon density. I change 20% of my water weekly. I keep the bottom full of live plants and scavangers. I change filter bags rarely, but once a month or two I clean out the bulk of the captured stuff with tank temperature water. I change charcoal maybe in 3 months. In short by not over feeding ( I feed all my fish with "Tetra Min" flakes), having healthy live plants, regular water changes and keeping the water temperature between 78 and 80 degrees. I am very happy with my fish. They sometimes bunch up in swarms and other times I have to look for them as they swim in the vegetation. No bullying, good color and too many fry. I really question "common knowledge" but do keep a close eye for signs that I am being too careless. I have 5 tanks ranging from 10 to 75 gallons. The 75 gallon I have had over one year, the others around 9 months. The tanks went through the cycling woes, a bit of early ich, but nothing bad in the last 6 months. On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:03:39 +0800, "Jim Morcombe" wrote: Comments invited. Do I have this right? I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while. When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly. After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria that convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and for the levels of nitrites to increase. Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in anything). When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce ammonia. If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish. As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from Nitrites to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the Nitrite levels. All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish. Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it oftens appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead at an incredible rate. This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over the time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the excess fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly begins to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden, the Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia level has dropped to normal - and death strikes. The solution (other than not over-stocking) is: 1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded. This means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the increase in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum. 2. daily water changes while over stocked 3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been removed. Jim |
#5
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![]() "Jim Morcombe" wrote in message ... Dick I have firmly reached the opinion that a stable over-stocked aquaroum is far better than an aquarium that has a variable level of stocking. I think that if you slowly raise the number of fish, the tank will slowly grow to cope with it. I also think that it depends on why you keep an aquarium. If you are trying to breed something, then you need to be careful on stocking levels. If you want a good-looking and fun aquarium that is interesting to watch, then over-stocking is sometimes a good idea. It forces fish to interact in ways you may not see otherwise. Jim oooh, forcing fish interaction....controversial stuff. I'm a firm believer in that as soon as you get the basics down, research & experiment, with discretion. On overstocking, I once filled a 135g with a box of Platys. These are fish which didn't mind being a little crowded. The tank was aged, lots of petrified wood (keeping the water a little hard just like Platys prefer), Java ferns and I kept a bit of salt in the water. Filtration was with two 404s, connected to UGF plates covered by river stones (always vacuuming the bottom that way). Platys were about 1-1/2 inches long when they went in. I lost about 4 to Ich (and they were the only ones who ever showed any symptoms) and about a dozen to bacterial infections they brought with them (over about 4 months, symptom was wasting away). The rest of them were fine, excellent activity, appetite and tons of babies. Because my change in stocking level was abrupt (I went from zero to emptying a box of fish in there), we did do a lot of water changes, and we were testing the water twice a day for a month. There are 900 Platys in a box, do the math ;~) We emptied the tank when the Platys were becoming too difficult to catch to sell (there were about 80 left). ps: this was a commercial tank, under almost continuous observation, don't try this at home. NetMax |
#6
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I worried early on when the tanks grew in population, some due to
surviving babies, some due to stupid ordering. (I buy everything over the internet) I haven't ordered new fish for over 6 months, so I think this is part of my tanks' stability. The fry increase in size slowly probably helps. Glad to have your view. On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:13:38 +0800, "Jim Morcombe" wrote: Dick I have firmly reached the opinion that a stable over-stocked aquaroum is far better than an aquarium that has a variable level of stocking. I think that if you slowly raise the number of fish, the tank will slowly grow to cope with it. I also think that it depends on why you keep an aquarium. If you are trying to breed something, then you need to be careful on stocking levels. If you want a good-looking and fun aquarium that is interesting to watch, then over-stocking is sometimes a good idea. It forces fish to interact in ways you may not see otherwise. Jim Dick wrote in message .. . My freshwater tanks are constantly above the one fish-inch per gallon density. I change 20% of my water weekly. I keep the bottom full of live plants and scavangers. I change filter bags rarely, but once a month or two I clean out the bulk of the captured stuff with tank temperature water. I change charcoal maybe in 3 months. In short by not over feeding ( I feed all my fish with "Tetra Min" flakes), having healthy live plants, regular water changes and keeping the water temperature between 78 and 80 degrees. I am very happy with my fish. They sometimes bunch up in swarms and other times I have to look for them as they swim in the vegetation. No bullying, good color and too many fry. I really question "common knowledge" but do keep a close eye for signs that I am being too careless. I have 5 tanks ranging from 10 to 75 gallons. The 75 gallon I have had over one year, the others around 9 months. The tanks went through the cycling woes, a bit of early ich, but nothing bad in the last 6 months. On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:03:39 +0800, "Jim Morcombe" wrote: Comments invited. Do I have this right? I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while. When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly. After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria that convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and for the levels of nitrites to increase. Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in anything). When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce ammonia. If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish. As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from Nitrites to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the Nitrite levels. All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish. Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it oftens appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead at an incredible rate. This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over the time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the excess fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly begins to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden, the Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia level has dropped to normal - and death strikes. The solution (other than not over-stocking) is: 1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded. This means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the increase in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum. 2. daily water changes while over stocked 3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been removed. Jim |
#7
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![]() -- "NetMax" wrote in message .. . "Jim Morcombe" wrote in message ... Comments invited. Do I have this right? I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while. When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly. Once comment: if you keep the pH below 7.2 or so, almost all the ammonia is present as ammonium (the NH4+ ion of ammonia) instead of as "real" ammonia (NH3). Ammonium is much less toxic than ammonia. But, of course, once the ammonium (or ammonia) get converted to nitrite, the fish will die of the nitrite spike... Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will be fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other disease. Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish are fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day. Interesting -- I didn't know that. Might help to explain why I had the odd inexplicable death among new arrivals. (My tank was at zero nitrates for quite a while before I wised up and started dosing nitrates -- I now keep nitrates at around 10-15ppm.) I suspect that 40ppm or more wouldn't be unusual in many fish shops. I think I'll test the water I bring the fish home in next time. Might learn something new that way. Now, here is the real question: say I just bought a bunch of fish and they are swimming in 60ppm nitrate. Now, how do I get those into my 10ppm tank without killing them? I normally acclimatise new arrivals over about an hour, gradually adding small amounts of tank water to the bag and then transfer the fish. But I suspect that an hour is too short to overcome a 50ppm change in nitrates... Cheers, Michi. |
#8
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![]() "Michi Henning" wrote in message ... -- "NetMax" wrote in message .. . "Jim Morcombe" wrote in message ... Comments invited. Do I have this right? I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while. When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly. Once comment: if you keep the pH below 7.2 or so, almost all the ammonia is present as ammonium (the NH4+ ion of ammonia) instead of as "real" ammonia (NH3). Ammonium is much less toxic than ammonia. But, of course, once the ammonium (or ammonia) get converted to nitrite, the fish will die of the nitrite spike... Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will be fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other disease. Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish are fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day. Interesting -- I didn't know that. Might help to explain why I had the odd inexplicable death among new arrivals. (My tank was at zero nitrates for quite a while before I wised up and started dosing nitrates -- I now keep nitrates at around 10-15ppm.) I suspect that 40ppm or more wouldn't be unusual in many fish shops. I think I'll test the water I bring the fish home in next time. Might learn something new that way. Now, here is the real question: say I just bought a bunch of fish and they are swimming in 60ppm nitrate. Now, how do I get those into my 10ppm tank without killing them? I normally acclimatise new arrivals over about an hour, gradually adding small amounts of tank water to the bag and then transfer the fish. But I suspect that an hour is too short to overcome a 50ppm change in nitrates... Cheers, Michi. Good question. A lot depends on the cost of the fish, the size of the fish and the difference in water parameters. The smaller or more expensive, or the greater the difference, the slower you want to acclimate them. Also the conversion from hard water to soft water is harder than the reverse. If I'm buying a $100 fish, I show up with a styrofoam box. Inside the box they put 1 bag of water with the fish, and 3 or 4 bags of only water. The extra water bags helps keep the temperature uniform while travelling, and I use it to fill a small aquarium about 50%. This quarantine aquarium has a small submerged filter, and a small submerged heater (this allows me to have the water level as low as I like, which often happens when I'm using partial LFS water to acclimate. Be sure to water test the LFS water when you get home (from the bag with no fish, as the fish bag will be skewed due to the CO2 and ammonia released). For 2-3 days, I try to do nothing, then over the next few days, I start adding my tank/source water. Your % of tank/source water depends on your tank conditions and where you want to eventually end up. Laborious.. yes, and it needs the patience of a saint, but it is very successful. I hope this gives you some ideas. cheers NetMax |
#9
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"NetMax" wrote in message
.. . If I'm buying a $100 fish, I show up with a styrofoam box. Inside the box they put 1 bag of water with the fish, and 3 or 4 bags of only water. The extra water bags helps keep the temperature uniform while travelling, and I use it to fill a small aquarium about 50%. This quarantine aquarium has a small submerged filter, and a small submerged heater (this allows me to have the water level as low as I like, which often happens when I'm using partial LFS water to acclimate. Be sure to water test the LFS water when you get home (from the bag with no fish, as the fish bag will be skewed due to the CO2 and ammonia released). For 2-3 days, I try to do nothing, then over the next few days, I start adding my tank/source water. Your % of tank/source water depends on your tank conditions and where you want to eventually end up. Laborious.. yes, and it needs the patience of a saint, but it is very successful. I hope this gives you some ideas. Yes it does, thanks! Now all I have to do is work out whether I'm enough of a saint to actually to this... :-) Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#10
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I always keep as many plants in a tank as I can. This seems to help with
the nitrates, but not with the nitrites. I do this because I like plants and the fish like the plants. I have bought fish from people that call themselves breeders and they have completely empty tanks except for the fish. I couldn't ever do this. Mind you, its pretty hard to catch fish in my tanks. It becomes quite a game with many people involved everytime we want to catch something. Invariably someone gets excited and destroys a plant or something just to catch the fish. Jim NetMax wrote in message .. . "Jim Morcombe" wrote in message ... Comments invited. Do I have this right? I am "often" forced to have too many fish in a tank for a while. When you add a heap of fish, the ammonia level increases. Most fish are quite tolerant of high levels of amonia, while others drop dead quickly. After a while, the additional ammonia provides nutrition for bacteria that convert amonia into nitrites. This causes these bacteria to flourish and for the levels of nitrites to increase. Most fish drop dead at the appearance of nitrites. (Those that don't are the type of fish that are very cheap, just because they thrive in anything). When fish or plants die and are left in the tank, they decay and produce ammonia. If fish die from Nitrite poisoning, then this means there are plenty of bacteria present for converting ammonia into nitrites and not enough bacteria that convert Nitrites into Nitrates. Hence the decaying fish quickly add to the over-abundance of Nitrites, killing more fish. As the Nitrite level grows, the amount of bacteria that converts Nitrites into Nitrates also grows. As it grows, the rate of conversion from Nitrites to Nitrates also increases. Unfortunately, most of the fish will be dead before the Nitrite to Nitrate conversion process can beging lowering the Nitrite levels. All we can do to help is frequent water changes and remove dead fish. Now, when you add extra fish for a dew days and then remove them, it oftens appears that you have escaped without upsetting your aquarium and killing fish. However, two weeks later, your remaining fish start to drop dead at an incredible rate. This is because there has been a build up in the level of ammonia over the time the aquarium was over-stocked. This ammonia remains after the excess fish are removed. The bacteria to convert this into Nitrites slowly begins to flourish and to convert the ammonia into Nitrites. All of a sudden, the Nitrite levels reach the point of toxidity - well before the ammoinia level has dropped to normal - and death strikes. The solution (other than not over-stocking) is: 1. severely underfeed the fish during the time they are over crowded. This means less fish poop and no leftover food to decompose. Hence the increase in Ammonia levels is kept to a minimum. 2. daily water changes while over stocked 3. continue water changes for two weeks after extra fish have been removed. Jim I think you have this reasonably correct. There are also bacteria seeding products, ammonia locking products and aquarium salt will help fish deal with nitrites. I'd add that the amount of nitrifying bacteria is directly functional to the amount of food being dropped in (the fish are just a middleman, processing it to their waste products), so if you double your fish load, but still feed the same amount, your nitrogen chain is still very stable. Also the nitrites are being processed into NO3 (nitrates). Beware that NO3 is a 'silent' killer. Fish exposed to water shock of greater than 40ppm NO3 will exhibit varying degrees of discomfort, and the smaller the fish, the more likely the shock will be fatal, either directly, or indirectly through Ich or some other disease. Nitrate shock is what kills new arrivals (when the rest of your fish are fine). IME, death occurs on or before the 3rd day. NetMax |
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