Internal Filter for Goldfish

[Jolly Fisherman]

What would some of you experts recommend for a completely
submersible/internal filter for a 20gal long GF tank?

Fluval Plus?

Marineland Duetto?

Tetra Whisper?

Sponge filter? Lustar Hydro?

None of the above? TIA.

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:

> What would some of you experts recommend for a completely
> submersible/internal filter for a 20gal long GF tank?
>
> Fluval Plus?
>
> Marineland Duetto?
>
> Tetra Whisper?
>
> Sponge filter? Lustar Hydro?
>
> None of the above? TIA.
=========================
None of the above. I use sponge filters for small fry but all the other
tanks have HOB Aquaclears. In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank
and take up valuable in-tank real estate.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

no internals except for fry. Ingrid

Jolly Fisherman > wrote:

>
>What would some of you experts recommend for a completely
>submersible/internal filter for a 20gal long GF tank?
>
>Fluval Plus?
>
>Marineland Duetto?
>
>Tetra Whisper?
>
>Sponge filter? Lustar Hydro?
>
>None of the above? TIA.



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[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:05:01 GMT, wrote:

>no internals except for fry. Ingrid

I was afraid you guys would say that. I asked because conceptually it
seemed to me like running water through the aquaclear, etc. sponge
doesn't seem that different than the internal filters. I don't like
sponge filters. It seems like they could get gunked up and loose
efficiency without you really knowing. But I have seen some
recommendations for the Hydra for Goldfish elsewhere (even in use in
pictures from a competition) so I thought I'd ask.

Presently I have a GF tank that cannot accommodate any HOB or BIOwheel
system because of vertical clearance. So I'm temporarily running an
aquaclear on the front of the tank. It's unsightly. Frankly while it
works & the fishy is happy I'm not very impressed with the filter's
design concept. I'm not going to move the tank unless it seems it
NEEDS a biowheel or something.

Am I totally off the mark? Thanks again.

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:
> Presently I have a GF tank that cannot accommodate any HOB or BIOwheel
> system because of vertical clearance. So I'm temporarily running an
> aquaclear on the front of the tank. It's unsightly. Frankly while it
> works & the fishy is happy I'm not very impressed with the filter's
> design concept. I'm not going to move the tank unless it seems it
> NEEDS a biowheel or something.
>
> Am I totally off the mark? Thanks again.
==================================
You can always drain it way down and move it forward enough to get the
filter behind it. If you can't do that then how about a canister filter
under it or beside it?
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:43:24 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:
>> Presently I have a GF tank that cannot accommodate any HOB or BIOwheel
>> system because of vertical clearance. So I'm temporarily running an
>> aquaclear on the front of the tank. It's unsightly. Frankly while it
>> works & the fishy is happy I'm not very impressed with the filter's
>> design concept. I'm not going to move the tank unless it seems it
>> NEEDS a biowheel or something.
>>
>> Am I totally off the mark? Thanks again.
>==================================
>You can always drain it way down and move it forward enough to get the
>filter behind it.

Thanks for more help but I can't really. Even if I could squeeze it
in by rotating everything in strange angles I couldn't service it
without doing nearly 100% water changes. Not at all what I'm looking
for.

> If you can't do that then how about a canister filter
>under it or beside it?

If it was something around the size of a typical HOB or slightly
bigger that might work great. Is there such an animal?


But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an internal
power/canister filter?

Is it that the internal one's lack sufficient surface area for
adequate biological filtration? All of them are using equal
oxygenated water so I'm assuming surface area is the main limitation
of biological filtration here. But my adequate Aquaclear sponge &
ceramic thingies aren't very big.

I'm also assuming the recommendations here are based somewhat on the
current they generate. But even that is a little fuzzy in my mind.
For one thing, AFIK, external canisters tend to be _more_ powerful.


I don't mean to be a PITA here, but I also don't understand when you
say "In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank." Both a HOB &
internal filter use mainly a sponge or similar that is submerged in
continuously circulating tank water. So from the standpoint of water
quality it shouldn't matter that the sponge filter is located in an
external reservoir; it is one connected water system. If anything the
internal filters are less likely to release gunk into the tank when
servicing them because you are basically forced to totally remove them
before servicing.

I am somewhat of a newb, admittedly, but I do basically understand the
high bio-load needs of GF. I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.
Help?

[Graeme]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>
> What would some of you experts recommend for a completely
> submersible/internal filter for a 20gal long GF tank?
>
> Fluval Plus?
>
> Marineland Duetto?
>
> Tetra Whisper?
>
> Sponge filter? Lustar Hydro?
>
> None of the above? TIA.


The best buy I ever made was a external canister filter, I have a Fluval
204. This was my first canister filter after using internals for years.
The differences it made was amazing, water was cleaner and the fish seemed a
lot more happy. I think the cleaner water was simply the increased
bio-filtering which goes on (compared to internal filters).

It looks like an overkill to most people who visit, having a canister filter
for a handful of goldfish, but I couldn't recommend it enough. Installing
was simple, just 2 tubes into the tank, leading down to filter which sits in
a cabinet out of slight.

Graeme

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:

> On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:43:24 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>> You can always drain it way down and move it forward enough to get
>> the filter behind it.
============
> Thanks for more help but I can't really. Even if I could squeeze it
> in by rotating everything in strange angles I couldn't service it
> without doing nearly 100% water changes. Not at all what I'm looking
> for.
>
>> If you can't do that then how about a canister filter
>> under it or beside it?
>
> If it was something around the size of a typical HOB or slightly
> bigger that might work great. Is there such an animal?

I'm not sure of the sizes they come in these days.

> But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external canister
> or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an internal
> power/canister filter?

SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize how large
healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long. There's a rule of
10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults as even a 10g is too
small for an adult GF. It would be like keeping a person in a closet.

> Is it that the internal one's lack sufficient surface area for
> adequate biological filtration? All of them are using equal
> oxygenated water so I'm assuming surface area is the main limitation
> of biological filtration here. But my adequate Aquaclear sponge &
> ceramic thingies aren't very big.

And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in the tank
the better the filtration and the more partial water changes you will need
to perform.

> I'm also assuming the recommendations here are based somewhat on the
> current they generate. But even that is a little fuzzy in my mind.
> For one thing, AFIK, external canisters tend to be _more_ powerful.
>
> I don't mean to be a PITA here, but I also don't understand when you
> say "In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank." Both a HOB &
> internal filter use mainly a sponge or similar that is submerged in
> continuously circulating tank water. So from the standpoint of water
> quality it shouldn't matter that the sponge filter is located in an
> external reservoir; it is one connected water system. If anything the
> internal filters are less likely to release gunk into the tank when
> servicing them because you are basically forced to totally remove them
> before servicing.

I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water was
always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started using the HOB
filters and the Fluval. Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter or
internal sponge filter. I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial water
change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the color of that
powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

> I am somewhat of a newb, admittedly, but I do basically understand the
> high bio-load needs of GF.

GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.

I also understand the value of the wet/dry
> biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
> sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.

Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?

> Help?
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:04:11 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

<snip>
>> But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external canister
>> or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an internal
>> power/canister filter?
>
>SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize how large
>healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long. There's a rule of
>10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults as even a 10g is too
>small for an adult GF. It would be like keeping a person in a closet.

As I posted earlier it's a 20gal long. I understand this to be a
minimum size starter tank for 1-2 GF, at least for a while anyway.

I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool. I'm
not stupid though.

>> Is it that the internal one's lack sufficient surface area for
>> adequate biological filtration? All of them are using equal
>> oxygenated water so I'm assuming surface area is the main limitation
>> of biological filtration here. But my adequate Aquaclear sponge &
>> ceramic thingies aren't very big.
>
>And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in the tank
>the better the filtration and the more partial water changes you will need
>to perform.

Only 1 small GF at the moment. I would never put in more than 2 small
or medium sized GF in it. IMHO I don't think a 20gal should sustain
more than 6-7 inches total of fat-bodied fish like GF in normal
maintenance routines.

>> I'm also assuming the recommendations here are based somewhat on the
>> current they generate. But even that is a little fuzzy in my mind.
>> For one thing, AFIK, external canisters tend to be _more_ powerful.
>>
>> I don't mean to be a PITA here, but I also don't understand when you
>> say "In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank." Both a HOB &
>> internal filter use mainly a sponge or similar that is submerged in
>> continuously circulating tank water. So from the standpoint of water
>> quality it shouldn't matter that the sponge filter is located in an
>> external reservoir; it is one connected water system. If anything the
>> internal filters are less likely to release gunk into the tank when
>> servicing them because you are basically forced to totally remove them
>> before servicing.
>
>I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water was
>always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started using the HOB
>filters and the Fluval.

Air-driven box filters seem like very inefficient devices IMHO. They
don't seem capable of the same mechanical filtration of these
submersible canisters, etc.

It's nice that you can use floss in them, which can filter tinier
particles and hold biobugs. But what I've seen is that it's quite
easy to have too much floss or gunk so the filtering power drops to
nothing. But putting in too little floss results in water just
traveling around, rather than through, the floss. Both problems seem
easy to accomplish and would jeopardize water quality.

> Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
>before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter or
>internal sponge filter.

Is that really true? I would think that anything that would come so
easily out of the filter media when it is off & in a still tank would
either be loose particles (not so different than what's on/in the
gravel) that would quickly get sucked in again when turned on, or the
gooey almost liquid crud that probably gets forced through the media
normally anyway. Either way this stuff is slowly rotting in the water
regardless of whether it's in the filter or not, although being in a
running filter means it breaks down faster.

> I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
>Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial water
>change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the color of that
>powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

I haven't bought a diatomaceous earth filter because me research seems
to indicate that it is not necessary for normal, healthy
circumstances. According to some sources it is contraindicated unless
there is a specific problem as it can filter out some of the biobugs;
the last thing you want to do in a GF tank, esp around the time of a
water change.

I almost bought one for my planted tropical tank because of the
cloudiness from the fluorite. But I got talked out of it. I added
some clarifying solution to the new tank a few times. Now even that
isn't needed anymore. Instead all it takes is some floss in my rena
XP3 for beautiful results, even after planting or sloppy water
changes. Both tanks "look" clean, smell right, and water parameters
are correct. You probably have higher standards but right now that's
good enough for me.

>> I am somewhat of a newb, admittedly, but I do basically understand the
>> high bio-load needs of GF.
>
>GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.

I understand that. That's why I'm running this past this group
instead of potentially wasting money on failed experiments that would
affect with my GF's health (& my stress level).

I value the recommendations from members in this group and wanted to
understand them a little better. I thought looking at the issue a
little deeper than usual might be useful, not only for myself, but for
other readers here. Thanks to you and all for the responses thus far.

>I also understand the value of the wet/dry
>> biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
>> sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.
>
>Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?

I'm very close to doing that.

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:

> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:04:11 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>> But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external
>>> canister
>>> or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an
>>> internal power/canister filter?
>>
>> SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize
>> how large healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long.
>> There's a rule of 10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults
>> as even a 10g is too small for an adult GF. It would be like
>> keeping a person in a closet.
>
> As I posted earlier it's a 20gal long. I understand this to be a
> minimum size starter tank for 1-2 GF, at least for a while anyway.

Sorry, I did go back and check after I hit the "send" button. You would save
more in the longrun and buy a 30Long to start with. You can keep 3 adults
in a 30L with plenty of partial water changes.

> I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
> the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool. I'm
> not stupid though.

Wow! That must have been a real beauty! If you have a PetsMart near you
check them out. They get in really nice semi-adult beauties for around $25.
I'm talking nice QUALITY, not just size.

>> And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in
>> the tank the better the filtration and the more partial water
>> changes you will need to perform.

> Only 1 small GF at the moment. I would never put in more than 2 small
> or medium sized GF in it. IMHO I don't think a 20gal should sustain
> more than 6-7 inches total of fat-bodied fish like GF in normal
> maintenance routines.

I never go by inches of fish. It just doesn't work out for me. GF do much
better if they have a companion. Keep at least two together. Add the
second one when the cycle is finished. You will soon become as addicted to
these little beauties as I am. :-) They've been a lifelong passion of
mine. I just set up a 680g outdoor aboveground pool for my Shubunkins.
Some of my fancies will spend the summer outdoors in 150g pools. Some
fancies do well outdoors all year round.

>> I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water
>> was always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started
>> using the HOB filters and the Fluval.
>
> Air-driven box filters seem like very inefficient devices IMHO. They
> don't seem capable of the same mechanical filtration of these
> submersible canisters, etc.

Oh, you're right. They do work ok with a light fish load. Any type of
canister would beat them cold.

> It's nice that you can use floss in them, which can filter tinier
> particles and hold biobugs. But what I've seen is that it's quite
> easy to have too much floss or gunk so the filtering power drops to
> nothing. But putting in too little floss results in water just
> traveling around, rather than through, the floss. Both problems seem
> easy to accomplish and would jeopardize water quality.

You quickly learn how much floss to use and what color to change it at.
Floss is dirt cheap when you buy Quilt Batting at Wal*Mart. Just toss and
add more. I always kept fine gravel in the bottom to weight them down and
act as a bio-filter.

>> Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
>> before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter
>> or internal sponge filter.

> Is that really true?

YES! And we lose power here as I live way out in the country. If it's not
lightening hitting a pole it's some drunk..... :-( We keep a kerosene
heater handy, candles and kerosene lamps.

I would think that anything that would come so
> easily out of the filter media when it is off & in a still tank would
> either be loose particles (not so different than what's on/in the
> gravel) that would quickly get sucked in again when turned on,

Have you ever SMELLED a filter that was deprived of power (water flow) for
several hours? Some already smell foul - who would want to pump that back
into the tank? When we lose power for an hour or more I pull the sponges
from the Aquaclears and rinse them out in tank water.

or the
> gooey almost liquid crud that probably gets forced through the media
> normally anyway. Either way this stuff is slowly rotting in the water
> regardless of whether it's in the filter or not, although being in a
> running filter means it breaks down faster.

That's why squeezing the sponges is important. I don't let mine turn into
slimy masses of gook and globs...... On top of the sponges sit the bags of
tiny bio-balls or sintered glass bio beads. They get a weekly quick swish
in tank water as well. But remember - it's whatever works for YOU and YOUR
fish.

>> I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
>> Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial
>> water change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the
>> color of that powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

> I haven't bought a diatomaceous earth filter because me research seems
> to indicate that it is not necessary for normal, healthy
> circumstances.

This is true - I have them because they polish the water and remove what
goes right through a regular filter. I only use mine after a water change.

According to some sources it is contraindicated unless
> there is a specific problem as it can filter out some of the biobugs;
> the last thing you want to do in a GF tank, esp around the time of a
> water change.

The bio-bugs are ATTACHED the things in the aquarium. Very few are floating
around free in the water. Look what the DE filter is removing OTOH,... all
that fine crapola that goes right through sponges and floss. :-)

> I almost bought one for my planted tropical tank because of the
> cloudiness from the fluorite. But I got talked out of it. I added
> some clarifying solution to the new tank a few times. Now even that
> isn't needed anymore. Instead all it takes is some floss in my rena
> XP3 for beautiful results, even after planting or sloppy water
> changes. Both tanks "look" clean, smell right, and water parameters
> are correct. You probably have higher standards but right now that's
> good enough for me.

Like I sad above - whatever works for YOU! :-)

>> GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.
>
> I understand that. That's why I'm running this past this group
> instead of potentially wasting money on failed experiments that would
> affect with my GF's health (& my stress level).
>
> I value the recommendations from members in this group and wanted to
> understand them a little better. I thought looking at the issue a
> little deeper than usual might be useful, not only for myself, but for
> other readers here. Thanks to you and all for the responses thus far.

You may also want to ask this on the misc (alt.aquaria.freshwater.misc)
group as more people pass through there than they do here.

>> I also understand the value of the wet/dry
>>> biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
>>> sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.
>>
>> Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?
>
> I'm very close to doing that.

If they don't do the job you can always save it for a backup.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[netDenizen]

Jolly Fisherman wrote:
> What would some of you experts recommend for a completely
> submersible/internal filter for a 20gal long GF tank?
>
> Fluval Plus?
>
> Marineland Duetto?
>
> Tetra Whisper?
>
> Sponge filter? Lustar Hydro?
>
> None of the above? TIA.

My LFS use large internal air-driven sponge filters on their
fish-for-sale aquariums. I think they should work quite well on goldfish
aquaria if properly sized, and you could easily use two in an aquarium.
The obvious drawback is that they take up room in the aquarium, and I
mostly use Aquaclear-style external filters and true canister filters.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:06:18 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:04:11 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>>> But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external
>>>> canister
>>>> or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an
>>>> internal power/canister filter?
>>>
>>> SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize
>>> how large healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long.
>>> There's a rule of 10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults
>>> as even a 10g is too small for an adult GF. It would be like
>>> keeping a person in a closet.
>>
>> As I posted earlier it's a 20gal long. I understand this to be a
>> minimum size starter tank for 1-2 GF, at least for a while anyway.
>
>Sorry, I did go back and check after I hit the "send" button. You would save
>more in the longrun and buy a 30Long to start with. You can keep 3 adults
>in a 30L with plenty of partial water changes.

AFAIK 29long is 30 x 12½ x 17 which is too tall for that space.
Frankly if I'm going to install a larger tank in a different place
I'll get a nice stand/cabinet and go for a 55-90 gal.

>> I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
>> the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool. I'm
>> not stupid though.
>
>Wow! That must have been a real beauty! If you have a PetsMart near you
>check them out. They get in really nice semi-adult beauties for around $25.
>I'm talking nice QUALITY, not just size.

In the best Petco's Petsmarts near me $25 buys a so-so looking, iffy
health, & 3-4 inch body fancies. These were probably 10+ inches +
very long fins and very attractive & healthy.

>>> And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in
>>> the tank the better the filtration and the more partial water
>>> changes you will need to perform.
>
>> Only 1 small GF at the moment. I would never put in more than 2 small
>> or medium sized GF in it. IMHO I don't think a 20gal should sustain
>> more than 6-7 inches total of fat-bodied fish like GF in normal
>> maintenance routines.
>
>I never go by inches of fish. It just doesn't work out for me. GF do much
>better if they have a companion. Keep at least two together. Add the
>second one when the cycle is finished. You will soon become as addicted to
>these little beauties as I am. :-) They've been a lifelong passion of
>mine. I just set up a 680g outdoor aboveground pool for my Shubunkins.
>Some of my fancies will spend the summer outdoors in 150g pools. Some
>fancies do well outdoors all year round.

I like to make things as formulaic as possible so I like the rule of
thumb I once read which claimed at least 1gal/in for thin bodied, 2
gal/in for medium bodied, and 3gal/in for fat bodied like GF. I'm
also trying to keep in mind the larger picture of typically 10-30 gal
per GF. As I get more experienced I'm sure my opinion on these will
change.

>>> I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water
>>> was always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started
>>> using the HOB filters and the Fluval.
>>
>> Air-driven box filters seem like very inefficient devices IMHO. They
>> don't seem capable of the same mechanical filtration of these
>> submersible canisters, etc.
>
>Oh, you're right. They do work ok with a light fish load. Any type of
>canister would beat them cold.
>
>> It's nice that you can use floss in them, which can filter tinier
>> particles and hold biobugs. But what I've seen is that it's quite
>> easy to have too much floss or gunk so the filtering power drops to
>> nothing. But putting in too little floss results in water just
>> traveling around, rather than through, the floss. Both problems seem
>> easy to accomplish and would jeopardize water quality.
>
>You quickly learn how much floss to use and what color to change it at.

true.

>Floss is dirt cheap when you buy Quilt Batting at Wal*Mart. Just toss and


that's actually another question I had. That's good to know there is
no difference.

>add more. I always kept fine gravel in the bottom to weight them down and
>act as a bio-filter.
>
>>> Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
>>> before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter
>>> or internal sponge filter.
>
>> Is that really true?
>
>YES! And we lose power here as I live way out in the country. If it's not
>lightening hitting a pole it's some drunk..... :-( We keep a kerosene
>heater handy, candles and kerosene lamps.

Well I haven't been so unlucky yet. I also have a few left over UPS's
which could ride out the average, short-lived outage that rarely
happens where I live.

> I would think that anything that would come so
>> easily out of the filter media when it is off & in a still tank would
>> either be loose particles (not so different than what's on/in the
>> gravel) that would quickly get sucked in again when turned on,
>
>Have you ever SMELLED a filter that was deprived of power (water flow) for
>several hours? Some already smell foul - who would want to pump that back
>into the tank? When we lose power for an hour or more I pull the sponges
>from the Aquaclears and rinse them out in tank water.

Hasn't happened to me yet. Makes sense though as it gets deprived of
02.

>or the
>> gooey almost liquid crud that probably gets forced through the media
>> normally anyway. Either way this stuff is slowly rotting in the water
>> regardless of whether it's in the filter or not, although being in a
>> running filter means it breaks down faster.
>
>That's why squeezing the sponges is important. I don't let mine turn into
>slimy masses of gook and globs...... On top of the sponges sit the bags of
>tiny bio-balls or sintered glass bio beads. They get a weekly quick swish
>in tank water as well. But remember - it's whatever works for YOU and YOUR
>fish.

My cleaning is similar. I didn't think about all the die off and
rotting from O2 deprivation.

>>> I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
>>> Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial
>>> water change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the
>>> color of that powder after 30 minutes. ;-)
>
>> I haven't bought a diatomaceous earth filter because me research seems
>> to indicate that it is not necessary for normal, healthy
>> circumstances.
>
>This is true - I have them because they polish the water and remove what
>goes right through a regular filter. I only use mine after a water change.

I guess after a water change it's helpful because it removes what may
have been stirred up after a gravel vac & water change, in addition to
the finer suspended stuff that otherwise remains.

>According to some sources it is contraindicated unless
>> there is a specific problem as it can filter out some of the biobugs;
>> the last thing you want to do in a GF tank, esp around the time of a
>> water change.
>
>The bio-bugs are ATTACHED the things in the aquarium. Very few are floating
>around free in the water. Look what the DE filter is removing OTOH,... all
>that fine crapola that goes right through sponges and floss. :-)

Well indeed they are both free floating and attached to things. I
didn't know how important the suspended biobugs were. I guess in that
case a DE filter will only help. But I wonder how much it really
alters fish health & life span.

>> I almost bought one for my planted tropical tank because of the
>> cloudiness from the fluorite. But I got talked out of it. I added
>> some clarifying solution to the new tank a few times. Now even that
>> isn't needed anymore. Instead all it takes is some floss in my rena
>> XP3 for beautiful results, even after planting or sloppy water
>> changes. Both tanks "look" clean, smell right, and water parameters
>> are correct. You probably have higher standards but right now that's
>> good enough for me.
>
>Like I sad above - whatever works for YOU! :-)
>
>>> GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.
>>
>> I understand that. That's why I'm running this past this group
>> instead of potentially wasting money on failed experiments that would
>> affect with my GF's health (& my stress level).
>>
>> I value the recommendations from members in this group and wanted to
>> understand them a little better. I thought looking at the issue a
>> little deeper than usual might be useful, not only for myself, but for
>> other readers here. Thanks to you and all for the responses thus far.
>
>You may also want to ask this on the misc (alt.aquaria.freshwater.misc)
>group as more people pass through there than they do here.

I might. I wanted to get specifically GF opinions. But there are GF
ppl there as well.

>>> I also understand the value of the wet/dry
>>>> biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
>>>> sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.
>>>
>>> Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?
>>
>> I'm very close to doing that.
>
>If they don't do the job you can always save it for a backup.

I'm not too excited about that. I already have a spare box filter and
soon to be retired Aquaclear. Both are only a few months old. If
another filter doesn't do the job, it wouldn't make for much of a
backup IMHO. But experimentation is probably what makes the most
makes right now.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:26:15 -0500, netDenizen > wrote:

>My LFS use large internal air-driven sponge filters on their
>fish-for-sale aquariums. I think they should work quite well on goldfish
>aquaria if properly sized, and you could easily use two in an aquarium.
>The obvious drawback is that they take up room in the aquarium, and I
>mostly use Aquaclear-style external filters and true canister filters.

There's a chain by me that does that also. Typically they use 2 box
filters per tank. Their absurdly overstocked GF always seem to be
suffering for water-quality health issues. Whenever they get some
bigger ones they seem to quickly develop nasty sores and diseases. Of
course their are multiple reasons for this, but my perception is
tainted. Plus I can't stand the gurgling bubble noise they tend to
make.

I'm starting to think if an internal canister/power filter doesn't
work I should either give up or buy a large tank for a different
location with a nice canister & biowheel.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 22:26:00 GMT, Jolly Fisherman >
wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:26:15 -0500, netDenizen > wrote:
>
>>My LFS use large internal air-driven sponge filters on their
>>fish-for-sale aquariums. I think they should work quite well on goldfish

Sorry I misread. Was still thinking "box filters" from my prior post.

[netDenizen]

Jolly Fisherman wrote:

>>>My LFS use large internal air-driven sponge filters on their
>>>fish-for-sale aquariums. I think they should work quite well on goldfish
>
>
> Sorry I misread. Was still thinking "box filters" from my prior post.

Those internal air-driven foam filters seem to be pretty good biological
filters. However they're ugly, and as you mentioned, they gurgle.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:59:05 -0500, netDenizen > wrote:

>Jolly Fisherman wrote:
>
>>>>My LFS use large internal air-driven sponge filters on their
>>>>fish-for-sale aquariums. I think they should work quite well on goldfish
>>
>>
>> Sorry I misread. Was still thinking "box filters" from my prior post.
>
>Those internal air-driven foam filters seem to be pretty good biological
>filters. However they're ugly, and as you mentioned, they gurgle.

Yes. I have indeed seen some reference to that. Esp the larger
Lustar Hydros. Didn't mean to sound so dismissive. You answer was
right along the lines of what I was asking.

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:

> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:06:18 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>> Sorry, I did go back and check after I hit the "send" button. You
>> would save more in the longrun and buy a 30Long to start with. You
>> can keep 3 adults in a 30L with plenty of partial water changes.
===========
> AFAIK 29long is 30 x 12½ x 17 which is too tall for that space.
> Frankly if I'm going to install a larger tank in a different place
> I'll get a nice stand/cabinet and go for a 55-90 gal.

THAT would be the smartest move of all. :-)

>>> I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
>>> the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool.
>>> I'm not stupid though.

>> Wow! That must have been a real beauty! If you have a PetsMart
>> near you check them out. They get in really nice semi-adult
>> beauties for around $25. I'm talking nice QUALITY, not just size.

> In the best Petco's Petsmarts near me $25 buys a so-so looking, iffy
> health, & 3-4 inch body fancies. These were probably 10+ inches +
> very long fins and very attractive & healthy.

Those are truly adult fish then. Probably retired breeders. Nothing wrong
with that.

>> Floss is dirt cheap when you buy Quilt Batting at Wal*Mart. Just
>> toss and
>
>
> that's actually another question I had. That's good to know there is
> no difference.

None but price from what I have seen.

>> This is true - I have them because they polish the water and remove
>> what goes right through a regular filter. I only use mine after a
>> water change.
>
> I guess after a water change it's helpful because it removes what may
> have been stirred up after a gravel vac & water change, in addition to
> the finer suspended stuff that otherwise remains.

Exactly - plus I really run my fingers through the gravel to stir up as much
as possible before I refill the tank. Then the DE runs as I'm refilling it.
About 30 minutes after I finish refilling it the water is crystal clear. I
always do massive water changes also - about 80% at a time.

>> The bio-bugs are ATTACHED the things in the aquarium. Very few are
>> floating around free in the water. Look what the DE filter is
>> removing OTOH,... all that fine crapola that goes right through
>> sponges and floss. :-)

> Well indeed they are both free floating and attached to things. I
> didn't know how important the suspended biobugs were. I guess in that
> case a DE filter will only help. But I wonder how much it really
> alters fish health & life span.

I have no idea but it sure leaves them clean water! To make it even
cleaner you can add a Tbs. of fine activated charcoal the the Vortex bottle.

>> If they don't do the job you can always save it for a backup.
>
> I'm not too excited about that. I already have a spare box filter and
> soon to be retired Aquaclear. Both are only a few months old. If
> another filter doesn't do the job, it wouldn't make for much of a
> backup IMHO. But experimentation is probably what makes the most
> makes right now.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

I dont think what LFS do should be considered what is good for GF. Most of em spend
time every morning fishing the dead fish out of the tanks before they open their
doors.
internal filters do not properly aerate the biobugs and lead to anaerobic conditions.
they are not easy to clean, not like slipping the whisper filter bag and sponge out,
rinse it off and put it back.
The only thing about sponge filters got going for them is they can be tossed when the
fish are sold or die, whichever comes first. And most LFS dont feed their fish to
cut down on wastes. Ingrid

netDenizen > wrote:
>My LFS use large internal air-driven sponge filters on their
>fish-for-sale aquariums. I think they should work quite well on goldfish
>aquaria if properly sized, and you could easily use two in an aquarium.
>The obvious drawback is that they take up room in the aquarium, and I
>mostly use Aquaclear-style external filters and true canister filters.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 03:06:42 GMT, wrote:

>I dont think what LFS do should be considered what is good for GF. Most of em spend
>time every morning fishing the dead fish out of the tanks before they open their
>doors.

A valid point. You can also tell just by looking in the tanks that
typical conditions are far from optimal.

>internal filters do not properly aerate the biobugs and lead to anaerobic conditions.

Well this is the point that stumps me. They are all seem to be based
on the same premise of drawing basically equally oxygenated water
through similar spongy or fibrous materials. The extra aeration of a
HOB filter tends to occur _after_ the water has been drawn through the
filter pad (i.e. aquaclear style) or in the case of the vertical pads
(i.e. whisper style) should IMO have little effect on most of the
submerged bacterial colony on the filter pad. It seems to me you
would need to generate a pretty significant convection-like circular
current within the filter reservoir to do what you claim. I'm not
sure how well they actually can do this. Ostensibly one needs a
wet/dry trickle type filter to get significantly superior oxygenation.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

>they are not easy to clean, not like slipping the whisper filter bag and sponge out,
>rinse it off and put it back.

Tetra makes internal whisper models that work exactly that way. They
seem almost identical to the external whispers. The main differences
are the internals are narrower & taller and won't normally cascade the
filtered water from as high. Being submerged, I believe the motor
should be quieter and more powerful.

I actually have a Whisper® In-Tank PF-40i. I'm still debating whether
to use or return it. I don't like the lack of flow rate adjustment or
the tall lip it has on the back. I have mixed feelings about the
vertical filter pads. They want you to keep buying & replacing their
proprietary carbon stuffed pad, but you don't really have to if your
handy.

>The only thing about sponge filters got going for them is they can be tossed when the
>fish are sold or die, whichever comes first. And most LFS dont feed their fish to
>cut down on wastes. Ingrid

No arguments here.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:50:13 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:06:18 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
>> wrote:
>>> Sorry, I did go back and check after I hit the "send" button. You
>>> would save more in the longrun and buy a 30Long to start with. You
>>> can keep 3 adults in a 30L with plenty of partial water changes.
>===========
>> AFAIK 29long is 30 x 12½ x 17 which is too tall for that space.
>> Frankly if I'm going to install a larger tank in a different place
>> I'll get a nice stand/cabinet and go for a 55-90 gal.
>
>THAT would be the smartest move of all. :-)

It's probably inevitable. I'm just resisting it right now.

>>>> I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
>>>> the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool.
>>>> I'm not stupid though.
>
>>> Wow! That must have been a real beauty! If you have a PetsMart
>>> near you check them out. They get in really nice semi-adult
>>> beauties for around $25. I'm talking nice QUALITY, not just size.
>
>> In the best Petco's Petsmarts near me $25 buys a so-so looking, iffy
>> health, & 3-4 inch body fancies. These were probably 10+ inches +
>> very long fins and very attractive & healthy.
>
>Those are truly adult fish then. Probably retired breeders. Nothing wrong
>with that.

About how old do you think these might be?

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:

> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:50:13 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:

>> Those are truly adult fish then. Probably retired breeders.
>> Nothing wrong with that.
>
> About how old do you think these might be?
===============================
At 10" for an Oranda you're talking about a GF several years old at least.
It takes my Shubunkins about 4 years to reach that size. I assume you mean
overall size including the tail. Some fish, like some people grow faster
than others and reach a larger mature adult size. I have some older GF that
are only 6 or 7" long. They're as individual as people are.

My concern would be would a fish that old adapt to life in a tank... most
of these fish are raised outdoors in large ponds or growing vats. These
would be very different conditions.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[netDenizen]

wrote:

> internal filters do not properly aerate the biobugs and lead to anaerobic conditions.
> they are not easy to clean, not like slipping the whisper filter bag and sponge out,
> rinse it off and put it back.

I'd consider the internal foam filters equivalent to the "classic"
biofilter - the undergravel filter. Advantages of the foam would be
EASIER cleaning w.r.t. under gravel (remove from tank, squeeze out in a
bucket of tank water, replace in tank), if you run two of them they can
be individually replaced, and they can be broken in on an established
aquarium then placed on a new tank to avoid the "cycle".

Aeration of the biobugs occurs through flow of fresh tank water. The
only "better" aerated media would be Bio-wheel or other wet-dry types,
as mentioned by another poster.

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:

>
> According to other threads one has to be careful to not buy a mildew
> resistant or fire retardant stuffing.
> http://snipurl.com/nqkd
=====================
The plain cheap batting has neither. Read the bag before you purchase it.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

it has to do with how thick that sponge is. the thicker the less likely there will
be enough oxygen. with those thick round sponges in the tank there is no reason to
expect that oxygen ever gets to the inside. it is the same with under gravel filters
that channelize and then oxygen does not get to all the gravel underneath and
anaerobic conditions get going. Ingrid

Jolly Fisherman > wrote:
>Well this is the point that stumps me. They are all seem to be based
>on the same premise of drawing basically equally oxygenated water
>through similar spongy or fibrous materials.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.

[[email protected]]

absolutely... http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/hardware.html#GRAVITY%20FILTER
Ingrid

Jolly Fisherman > wrote:
Ostensibly one needs a
>wet/dry trickle type filter to get significantly superior oxygenation.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 17:22:15 GMT, wrote:

>it has to do with how thick that sponge is. the thicker the less likely there will
>be enough oxygen. with those thick round sponges in the tank there is no reason to
>expect that oxygen ever gets to the inside. it is the same with under gravel filters
>that channelize and then oxygen does not get to all the gravel underneath and
>anaerobic conditions get going. Ingrid

Ok that makes sense to me.

Yesterday I got very excited about the Eheim Aquaballs. They look
like they have the flexibility and advantages of a full-fledged
canister. But it looks to me like the water flow design throws a lot
of that away IMHO.

Right now I'm going to experiment with a Whisper® In-Tank PF-40i. Not
thrilled about it - but to my eye it looks a lot like an external
whisper.

Thanks for you and everyone's help & expertise to analyze this.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 17:22:15 GMT, wrote:

>it has to do with how thick that sponge is. the thicker the less likely there will
>be enough oxygen. with those thick round sponges in the tank there is no reason to
>expect that oxygen ever gets to the inside. it is the same with under gravel filters
>that channelize and then oxygen does not get to all the gravel underneath and
>anaerobic conditions get going. Ingrid

Does that mean that oxygenation is also insufficient for multistage
canisters? Esp when the Bio media is after a few layers of sponges,
etc? Or is it the case that water flow is so generous that it
compensates for the great thickness of all the media? I guess this is
an argument for limiting the use of mechanical filter media in such
canisters?

[carlrs]

I could not resist offering my opinion on this topic. I have uses
dozens of styles and brands over the years in my aquarium maintenance
business in LA. I have to disagree about fluvals, they break down
easily, are poorly designed and overpriced. Via Aqua, Jebo, and Magnums
are all far superior canister filters. Also sponge filters when
properly maintained are excellent as low priced internal filters (they
are not as good in the mechanical filteration area). Via Aqua makes
some of the best internal power filters available. A good source for
Via Aqua (also sponge filters) is:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/

[[email protected]]

well I would think so, but the Goldfish Guru, Jo Ann Burke swears by fluvals so maybe
the force of the water pushes thru enough so that the biofilter gets enough oxygen.
Ingrid

Jolly Fisherman > wrote:
>Does that mean that oxygenation is also insufficient for multistage
>canisters? Esp when the Bio media is after a few layers of sponges,
>etc? Or is it the case that water flow is so generous that it
>compensates for the great thickness of all the media? I guess this is
>an argument for limiting the use of mechanical filter media in such
>canisters?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.

[carlrs]

Part of the Fluval design is the impellor, it is not large enough and
the housing is poorly designed causing them at the least to have poor
head pressure (needed for running UVs or other devices in line
http://aquariumuvsterilizer.blogspot.com/ ), and at worst total melt
down. They also do not have the bio capacity of many of their
competitors. My service route was one of the largest in LA (I sold of
most of it), and have used Fluvals and every other canister filter
imaginable. Sorry, if I am causing arguments, I just do no want to see
aquarists throw their money away. Fluvals can and do work, there are
just better options at better prices out there.
Carl

[Koi-Lo]

"carlrs" > wrote in message
oups.com...
I just do no want to see
> aquarists throw their money away. Fluvals can and do work, there are
> just better options at better prices out there.
===================
What would you recommend in a canister for a heavily planted 55g tank of
goldfish? My crappy old Fluval is out in the outbuilding with a broken lid
clamp (both valves broke within the first few months I had it). What in
your opinion is a BETTER filter at a better price? The Eihms (sp?) are out
of sight.........
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[carlrs]

I would recommend the Via Aqua 750 or the Jebo, and to a lessor degree
the Magnum 350 (reliable, but less capacity). And yes the Eheims are
excellent, but their price is out of site. As for valves, I replace all
my valves on my service route with hardware store ball valves mated
with hose barbs, as no aquarium canister filter comes with durable
valvles.
Carl
My site: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/

[Koi-Lo]

"carlrs" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I would recommend the Via Aqua 750 or the Jebo, and to a lessor degree
> the Magnum 350 (reliable, but less capacity). And yes the Eheims are
> excellent, but their price is out of site. As for valves, I replace all
> my valves on my service route with hardware store ball valves mated
> with hose barbs, as no aquarium canister filter comes with durable
> valvles.
> Carl
> My site: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/
=========================
Thanks!
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:41:55 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"carlrs" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I just do no want to see
>> aquarists throw their money away. Fluvals can and do work, there are
>> just better options at better prices out there.

As you know I'm no expert, but I think the renaXP's bear looking into.
I have an XP3 on a heavily planted 55gal tropical tank. It's very
simple to use, maintain, & setup. It has a lot of space for media,
and set me back about $100. (the XP2 I think is around $80). At
first I thought it was overkill, but not really anymore. I find it
powerful enough to literally clear up cloudiness before my eyes, while
at the same time my mess of large angels are very happy with the
minimal current. It's only been running for 4 months but both fish
and owner are happy FWIW. Of course YMMV.

[carlrs]

>Jolly Fisherman wrote:
>As you know I'm no expert, but I think the renaXP's bear looking into.
>I have an XP3 on a heavily planted 55gal tropical tank. It's very
>simple to use, maintain, & setup. It has a lot of space for media,
>and set me back about $100. (the XP2 I think is around $80). At
>first I thought it was overkill, but not really anymore.

I have used the Jebos with great success, but the Via Aqua 750 (almost
identical filters) costs $79.99 and compares to the XP3, which is why I
now use the 750s. Either way, both are excellent filters, and I have
seen the kind of results referred to above.
Carl
Aquarium design and maintenance since 1977
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:

> On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:41:55 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> "carlrs" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> I just do no want to see
>>> aquarists throw their money away. Fluvals can and do work, there are
>>> just better options at better prices out there.
>
> As you know I'm no expert, but I think the renaXP's bear looking into.
> I have an XP3 on a heavily planted 55gal tropical tank. It's very
> simple to use, maintain, & setup. It has a lot of space for media,
> and set me back about $100. (the XP2 I think is around $80). At
> first I thought it was overkill, but not really anymore. I find it
> powerful enough to literally clear up cloudiness before my eyes, while
> at the same time my mess of large angels are very happy with the
> minimal current. It's only been running for 4 months but both fish
> and owner are happy FWIW. Of course YMMV.
========================
Thanks,... I've been looking at the Rena's in my mail order catalogs. Since
my 55s also have the larger Aquaclears running on them I can probably get
the XP1. I'm going to see if I can get a better price than the $69.99 F&S
is advertising them for. I had such a bad experience with the Fluvals I
hesitate to even consider them again, and the Eheims are totally out of our
price range.

I'm going to do some Googling before I make a selection......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On 20 Mar 2006 20:20:01 -0800, "carlrs"
> wrote:

>>Jolly Fisherman wrote:
>>As you know I'm no expert, but I think the renaXP's bear looking into.
>>I have an XP3 on a heavily planted 55gal tropical tank. It's very
>>simple to use, maintain, & setup. It has a lot of space for media,
>>and set me back about $100. (the XP2 I think is around $80). At
>>first I thought it was overkill, but not really anymore.
>
>I have used the Jebos with great success, but the Via Aqua 750 (almost
>identical filters) costs $79.99 and compares to the XP3, which is why I

It probably is a fine filter but AFAIK gph it is somewhere inbetween
the XP2 & XP3 but uses 16 more watts. Perhaps that's quibbling as
they both have 3 generous media baskets and are generally quiet. I
know the XPs come with a nice plumbing kit, sponge filters &
BioChemZorb. I'm not 100% sure about the Via Aqua package. If it's
cheaper I guess that is less important.

>now use the 750s. Either way, both are excellent filters, and I have
>seen the kind of results referred to above.
>Carl

I don't mean to imply the result are unique. IMHO that's what they're
all _supposed_ to perform.

>Aquarium design and maintenance since 1977
>http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:33:37 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:
>
>> On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:41:55 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "carlrs" > wrote in message
>>> oups.com...
>>> I just do no want to see
>>>> aquarists throw their money away. Fluvals can and do work, there are
>>>> just better options at better prices out there.
>>
>> As you know I'm no expert, but I think the renaXP's bear looking into.
>> I have an XP3 on a heavily planted 55gal tropical tank. It's very
>> simple to use, maintain, & setup. It has a lot of space for media,
>> and set me back about $100. (the XP2 I think is around $80). At
>> first I thought it was overkill, but not really anymore. I find it
>> powerful enough to literally clear up cloudiness before my eyes, while
>> at the same time my mess of large angels are very happy with the
>> minimal current. It's only been running for 4 months but both fish
>> and owner are happy FWIW. Of course YMMV.
>========================
>Thanks,... I've been looking at the Rena's in my mail order catalogs. Since
>my 55s also have the larger Aquaclears running on them I can probably get
>the XP1. I'm going to see if I can get a better price than the $69.99 F&S
>is advertising them for. I had such a bad experience with the Fluvals I

That's how I ended up with the XP-3. I was looking at the XP-2 and
thought a little extra $ bought me more power & flexibility that could
be useful. I think the XP2 & 3 are better buys (IMHO). The plumbing
kits has a valve to adjust flow.

There are some minor quibbles about the renas like how they color
coded the plumbing so the intake tube is blue. Replacement parts are
also expensive. Some ppl report they can make some noise initially
before it gets broken in. For some this is trapped air. For others
this is related to the impeller.

>hesitate to even consider them again, and the Eheims are totally out of our
>price range.

You're not alone. I guess if Eheims were the only filters that worked
well & reliably they would basically be a necessary cost of fish
keeping. Here's hoping we aren't forced to take that view down the
line. ;)

>I'm going to do some Googling before I make a selection......

As you probably know already, try Froogle & Pricegrabber etc. as well

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:

> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:33:37 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>> Thanks,... I've been looking at the Rena's in my mail order
>> catalogs. Since my 55s also have the larger Aquaclears running on
>> them I can probably get the XP1. I'm going to see if I can get a
>> better price than the $69.99 F&S is advertising them for. I had
>> such a bad experience with the Fluvals I
============
> That's how I ended up with the XP-3. I was looking at the XP-2 and
> thought a little extra $ bought me more power & flexibility that could
> be useful. I think the XP2 & 3 are better buys (IMHO). The plumbing
> kits has a valve to adjust flow.
>
> There are some minor quibbles about the renas like how they color
> coded the plumbing so the intake tube is blue. Replacement parts are
> also expensive. Some ppl report they can make some noise initially
> before it gets broken in. For some this is trapped air. For others
> this is related to the impeller.

Noise can be a problem because at night you can hear a pin drop where I
live. Any noise will keep me awake. My husband can sleep through bombs
exploding........

>> hesitate to even consider them again, and the Eheims are totally out
>> of our price range.
>
> You're not alone. I guess if Eheims were the only filters that worked
> well & reliably they would basically be a necessary cost of fish
> keeping. Here's hoping we aren't forced to take that view down the
> line. ;)

I wasn't retired and hubby semi-retired I'd probably go for the Eheims.

>> I'm going to do some Googling before I make a selection......
>
> As you probably know already, try Froogle & Pricegrabber etc. as well

I'll see what I can find. ;-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:12:28 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

<snip>

>Noise can be a problem because at night you can hear a pin drop where I
>live. Any noise will keep me awake. My husband can sleep through bombs
>exploding........

I just want to provide a more balanced endorsement. Mine came
extremely quiet right out of the box. Many other ppl report the same.
I don't expect any filter to be completely silent but it is inaudible
in a closed cabinet and hardly noticeable when open & you are near it.
I was looking for something near-silent as well. That's part of the
beauty of a planted tank with no air pumps or splashing water. Noisy
equipment kill it for me.

>>> hesitate to even consider them again, and the Eheims are totally out
>>> of our price range.
>>
>> You're not alone. I guess if Eheims were the only filters that worked
>> well & reliably they would basically be a necessary cost of fish
>> keeping. Here's hoping we aren't forced to take that view down the
>> line. ;)
>
>I wasn't retired and hubby semi-retired I'd probably go for the Eheims.

Frankly I don't know what kind of value they bring. If it's the
difference between something always working as it should for years
while everything else is giving headaches I guess it's worth it. When
you're spending all these hundreds or even thousands on even modest
tank or tanks the price difference can potentially loose it's
significance IMHO.

>>> I'm going to do some Googling before I make a selection......
>>
>> As you probably know already, try Froogle & Pricegrabber etc. as well
>
>I'll see what I can find. ;-)

I think the XP1 is around $60 @ dr foster & smith & That Fish place.
I've never seen it for less than that. Hope you get a good deal on
whatever you choose.

[Koi-Lo]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> I just want to provide a more balanced endorsement. Mine came
> extremely quiet right out of the box. Many other ppl report the same.
> I don't expect any filter to be completely silent but it is inaudible
> in a closed cabinet and hardly noticeable when open & you are near it.
> I was looking for something near-silent as well. That's part of the
> beauty of a planted tank with no air pumps or splashing water. Noisy
> equipment kill it for me.

I also find the sound of splashing water, buzzing airpumps and humming
motors annoying, especially at night when everything is so quiet. In the
daytime I don't notice such noise as much. My old Fluval was quiet and the
ACs I now use are as silent as any filter you could find. I was thinking
that even a second added AC filled with bio-media instead of sponges would
work for extra bio-filtration and be 1/2 the price.

> I think the XP1 is around $60 @ dr foster & smith & That Fish place.
> I've never seen it for less than that. Hope you get a good deal on
> whatever you choose.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:30:57 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>> I just want to provide a more balanced endorsement. Mine came
>> extremely quiet right out of the box. Many other ppl report the same.
>> I don't expect any filter to be completely silent but it is inaudible
>> in a closed cabinet and hardly noticeable when open & you are near it.
>> I was looking for something near-silent as well. That's part of the
>> beauty of a planted tank with no air pumps or splashing water. Noisy
>> equipment kill it for me.
>
>I also find the sound of splashing water, buzzing airpumps and humming
>motors annoying, especially at night when everything is so quiet. In the
>daytime I don't notice such noise as much. My old Fluval was quiet and the
>ACs I now use are as silent as any filter you could find. I was thinking
>that even a second added AC filled with bio-media instead of sponges would
>work for extra bio-filtration and be 1/2 the price.

Since you were looking for a canister I assumed the goal was improved
mechanical filtration as much or even more so than biological. You
can get supplemental sized BioWheels similarly priced to AC's. I
don't know what they sound like.

But I don't know that 3 HOB filters all disturbing the surface of a
budget planted tank is the best thing for the plants. IMHO the only
thing a 3 AC filtration system has got going for it is you already own
two. Plus planted tanks can be expensive to set up & run. An extra
$20 or $60 can easily get lost in the whole expense over time. Just
my $0.02. You know the tank and your situation better than I.

[Koi-Lo]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:30:57 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>>I also find the sound of splashing water, buzzing airpumps and humming
>>motors annoying, especially at night when everything is so quiet. In the
>>daytime I don't notice such noise as much. My old Fluval was quiet and
>>the
>>ACs I now use are as silent as any filter you could find. I was thinking
>>that even a second added AC filled with bio-media instead of sponges would
>>work for extra bio-filtration and be 1/2 the price.
===============
> Since you were looking for a canister I assumed the goal was improved
> mechanical filtration as much or even more so than biological. You
> can get supplemental sized BioWheels similarly priced to AC's. I
> don't know what they sound like.

From what I understand you have to keep purchasing inserts from the company
and that can get expensive. I have no idea what they sound like either as I
never had one. Bio-filtration would be my aim more so than mechanical
filtration as I would leave the ACs on the tanks. I use my Vortex DE filter
for water polishing.

> But I don't know that 3 HOB filters all disturbing the surface of a
> budget planted tank is the best thing for the plants. IMHO the only
> thing a 3 AC filtration system has got going for it is you already own
> two. Plus planted tanks can be expensive to set up & run. An extra
> $20 or $60 can easily get lost in the whole expense over time. Just
> my $0.02. You know the tank and your situation better than I.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:19:59 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>From what I understand you have to keep purchasing inserts from the company
>and that can get expensive.

My understand is that you only have to replace the Bio-Wheel if it
gets damaged or stuck. Like all filters if you are creative I'm sure
there are cheaper substitutes for the mechanical pads.

> I have no idea what they sound like either as I
>never had one.

Apparently it can make a splashing noise as there are some models that
claim to "reduce" such noise. Never heard one in operation in a
silent room though.

> Bio-filtration would be my aim more so than mechanical

Then a wet/dry type system makes a lot of sense IMHO.

>filtration as I would leave the ACs on the tanks. I use my Vortex DE filter
>for water polishing.

Do you mean the D-1? I'm not familiar with the DE.

I'm starting to consider a DE filter again, myself. I wish the
Diotomagic was still being made. Are you happy with yours? Is it
easy to use on multiple tanks?

[Koi-Lo]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:19:59 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:

> Do you mean the D-1? I'm not familiar with the DE.

Yes. They're excellent for removing what you can't even see from the water.
I buy the DE from Home Depot for a fraction of the price the LFSs charge.

> I'm starting to consider a DE filter again, myself. I wish the
> Diotomagic was still being made. Are you happy with yours?

Yes, I love the job it does. This is the second one I've owned already and
wouldn't be without one. No other filter removes the fine crud this filter
removes. I run for for awhile after my weekly or bi-weekly partial water
changes. Just remember to oil it. People don't read the booklet or don't
bother and it doesn't last long when not oiled.

Is it
> easy to use on multiple tanks?

Yeah, you just turn it off and move it to the next tank. When the flow
slows you dump or flush and recharge it. I just wish instead of the hoses
it was made to *hang* on the tank in some way.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>