Internal Filter for Goldfish

What would some of you experts recommend for a completely
submersible/internal filter for a 20gal long GF tank?

Fluval Plus?

Marineland Duetto?

Tetra Whisper?

Sponge filter? Lustar Hydro?

None of the above? TIA.

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:

What would some of you experts recommend for a completely
submersible/internal filter for a 20gal long GF tank?

Fluval Plus?

Marineland Duetto?

Tetra Whisper?

Sponge filter? Lustar Hydro?

None of the above? TIA.
=========================
None of the above. I use sponge filters for small fry but all the other
tanks have HOB Aquaclears. In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank
and take up valuable in-tank real estate.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

no internals except for fry. Ingrid

Jolly Fisherman wrote:


What would some of you experts recommend for a completely
submersible/internal filter for a 20gal long GF tank?

Fluval Plus?

Marineland Duetto?

Tetra Whisper?

Sponge filter? Lustar Hydro?

None of the above? TIA.



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On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:05:01 GMT, wrote:

no internals except for fry. Ingrid

I was afraid you guys would say that. I asked because conceptually it
seemed to me like running water through the aquaclear, etc. sponge
doesn't seem that different than the internal filters. I don't like
sponge filters. It seems like they could get gunked up and loose
efficiency without you really knowing. But I have seen some
recommendations for the Hydra for Goldfish elsewhere (even in use in
pictures from a competition) so I thought I'd ask.

Presently I have a GF tank that cannot accommodate any HOB or BIOwheel
system because of vertical clearance. So I'm temporarily running an
aquaclear on the front of the tank. It's unsightly. Frankly while it
works & the fishy is happy I'm not very impressed with the filter's
design concept. I'm not going to move the tank unless it seems it
NEEDS a biowheel or something.

Am I totally off the mark? Thanks again.

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:
Presently I have a GF tank that cannot accommodate any HOB or BIOwheel
system because of vertical clearance. So I'm temporarily running an
aquaclear on the front of the tank. It's unsightly. Frankly while it
works & the fishy is happy I'm not very impressed with the filter's
design concept. I'm not going to move the tank unless it seems it
NEEDS a biowheel or something.

Am I totally off the mark? Thanks again.
==================================
You can always drain it way down and move it forward enough to get the
filter behind it. If you can't do that then how about a canister filter
under it or beside it?
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:43:24 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:
Presently I have a GF tank that cannot accommodate any HOB or BIOwheel
system because of vertical clearance. So I'm temporarily running an
aquaclear on the front of the tank. It's unsightly. Frankly while it
works & the fishy is happy I'm not very impressed with the filter's
design concept. I'm not going to move the tank unless it seems it
NEEDS a biowheel or something.

Am I totally off the mark? Thanks again.
==================================
You can always drain it way down and move it forward enough to get the
filter behind it.

Thanks for more help but I can't really. Even if I could squeeze it
in by rotating everything in strange angles I couldn't service it
without doing nearly 100% water changes. Not at all what I'm looking
for.

If you can't do that then how about a canister filter
under it or beside it?

If it was something around the size of a typical HOB or slightly
bigger that might work great. Is there such an animal?


But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an internal
power/canister filter?

Is it that the internal one's lack sufficient surface area for
adequate biological filtration? All of them are using equal
oxygenated water so I'm assuming surface area is the main limitation
of biological filtration here. But my adequate Aquaclear sponge &
ceramic thingies aren't very big.

I'm also assuming the recommendations here are based somewhat on the
current they generate. But even that is a little fuzzy in my mind.
For one thing, AFIK, external canisters tend to be _more_ powerful.


I don't mean to be a PITA here, but I also don't understand when you
say "In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank." Both a HOB &
internal filter use mainly a sponge or similar that is submerged in
continuously circulating tank water. So from the standpoint of water
quality it shouldn't matter that the sponge filter is located in an
external reservoir; it is one connected water system. If anything the
internal filters are less likely to release gunk into the tank when
servicing them because you are basically forced to totally remove them
before servicing.

I am somewhat of a newb, admittedly, but I do basically understand the
high bio-load needs of GF. I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.
Help?

"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
news

What would some of you experts recommend for a completely
submersible/internal filter for a 20gal long GF tank?

Fluval Plus?

Marineland Duetto?

Tetra Whisper?

Sponge filter? Lustar Hydro?

None of the above? TIA.


The best buy I ever made was a external canister filter, I have a Fluval
204. This was my first canister filter after using internals for years.
The differences it made was amazing, water was cleaner and the fish seemed a
lot more happy. I think the cleaner water was simply the increased
bio-filtering which goes on (compared to internal filters).

It looks like an overkill to most people who visit, having a canister filter
for a handful of goldfish, but I couldn't recommend it enough. Installing
was simple, just 2 tubes into the tank, leading down to filter which sits in
a cabinet out of slight.

Graeme

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:43:24 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:
You can always drain it way down and move it forward enough to get
the filter behind it.
============
Thanks for more help but I can't really. Even if I could squeeze it
in by rotating everything in strange angles I couldn't service it
without doing nearly 100% water changes. Not at all what I'm looking
for.

If you can't do that then how about a canister filter
under it or beside it?

If it was something around the size of a typical HOB or slightly
bigger that might work great. Is there such an animal?

I'm not sure of the sizes they come in these days.

But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an internal
power/canister filter?

SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize how large
healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long. There's a rule of
10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults as even a 10g is too
small for an adult GF. It would be like keeping a person in a closet.

Is it that the internal one's lack sufficient surface area for
adequate biological filtration? All of them are using equal
oxygenated water so I'm assuming surface area is the main limitation
of biological filtration here. But my adequate Aquaclear sponge &
ceramic thingies aren't very big.

And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in the tank
the better the filtration and the more partial water changes you will need
to perform.

I'm also assuming the recommendations here are based somewhat on the
current they generate. But even that is a little fuzzy in my mind.
For one thing, AFIK, external canisters tend to be _more_ powerful.

I don't mean to be a PITA here, but I also don't understand when you
say "In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank." Both a HOB &
internal filter use mainly a sponge or similar that is submerged in
continuously circulating tank water. So from the standpoint of water
quality it shouldn't matter that the sponge filter is located in an
external reservoir; it is one connected water system. If anything the
internal filters are less likely to release gunk into the tank when
servicing them because you are basically forced to totally remove them
before servicing.

I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water was
always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started using the HOB
filters and the Fluval. Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter or
internal sponge filter. I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial water
change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the color of that
powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

I am somewhat of a newb, admittedly, but I do basically understand the
high bio-load needs of GF.

GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.

I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.

Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?

Help?
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:04:11 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

snip
But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an internal
power/canister filter?

SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize how large
healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long. There's a rule of
10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults as even a 10g is too
small for an adult GF. It would be like keeping a person in a closet.

As I posted earlier it's a 20gal long. I understand this to be a
minimum size starter tank for 1-2 GF, at least for a while anyway.

I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool. I'm
not stupid though.

Is it that the internal one's lack sufficient surface area for
adequate biological filtration? All of them are using equal
oxygenated water so I'm assuming surface area is the main limitation
of biological filtration here. But my adequate Aquaclear sponge &
ceramic thingies aren't very big.

And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in the tank
the better the filtration and the more partial water changes you will need
to perform.

Only 1 small GF at the moment. I would never put in more than 2 small
or medium sized GF in it. IMHO I don't think a 20gal should sustain
more than 6-7 inches total of fat-bodied fish like GF in normal
maintenance routines.

I'm also assuming the recommendations here are based somewhat on the
current they generate. But even that is a little fuzzy in my mind.
For one thing, AFIK, external canisters tend to be _more_ powerful.

I don't mean to be a PITA here, but I also don't understand when you
say "In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank." Both a HOB &
internal filter use mainly a sponge or similar that is submerged in
continuously circulating tank water. So from the standpoint of water
quality it shouldn't matter that the sponge filter is located in an
external reservoir; it is one connected water system. If anything the
internal filters are less likely to release gunk into the tank when
servicing them because you are basically forced to totally remove them
before servicing.

I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water was
always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started using the HOB
filters and the Fluval.

Air-driven box filters seem like very inefficient devices IMHO. They
don't seem capable of the same mechanical filtration of these
submersible canisters, etc.

It's nice that you can use floss in them, which can filter tinier
particles and hold biobugs. But what I've seen is that it's quite
easy to have too much floss or gunk so the filtering power drops to
nothing. But putting in too little floss results in water just
traveling around, rather than through, the floss. Both problems seem
easy to accomplish and would jeopardize water quality.

Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter or
internal sponge filter.

Is that really true? I would think that anything that would come so
easily out of the filter media when it is off & in a still tank would
either be loose particles (not so different than what's on/in the
gravel) that would quickly get sucked in again when turned on, or the
gooey almost liquid crud that probably gets forced through the media
normally anyway. Either way this stuff is slowly rotting in the water
regardless of whether it's in the filter or not, although being in a
running filter means it breaks down faster.

I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial water
change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the color of that
powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

I haven't bought a diatomaceous earth filter because me research seems
to indicate that it is not necessary for normal, healthy
circumstances. According to some sources it is contraindicated unless
there is a specific problem as it can filter out some of the biobugs;
the last thing you want to do in a GF tank, esp around the time of a
water change.

I almost bought one for my planted tropical tank because of the
cloudiness from the fluorite. But I got talked out of it. I added
some clarifying solution to the new tank a few times. Now even that
isn't needed anymore. Instead all it takes is some floss in my rena
XP3 for beautiful results, even after planting or sloppy water
changes. Both tanks "look" clean, smell right, and water parameters
are correct. You probably have higher standards but right now that's
good enough for me.

I am somewhat of a newb, admittedly, but I do basically understand the
high bio-load needs of GF.

GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.

I understand that. That's why I'm running this past this group
instead of potentially wasting money on failed experiments that would
affect with my GF's health (& my stress level).

I value the recommendations from members in this group and wanted to
understand them a little better. I thought looking at the issue a
little deeper than usual might be useful, not only for myself, but for
other readers here. Thanks to you and all for the responses thus far.

I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.

Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?

I'm very close to doing that.

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:04:11 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

snip
But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external
canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an
internal power/canister filter?

SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize
how large healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long.
There's a rule of 10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults
as even a 10g is too small for an adult GF. It would be like
keeping a person in a closet.

As I posted earlier it's a 20gal long. I understand this to be a
minimum size starter tank for 1-2 GF, at least for a while anyway.

Sorry, I did go back and check after I hit the "send" button. You would save
more in the longrun and buy a 30Long to start with. You can keep 3 adults
in a 30L with plenty of partial water changes.

I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool. I'm
not stupid though.

Wow! That must have been a real beauty! If you have a PetsMart near you
check them out. They get in really nice semi-adult beauties for around $25.
I'm talking nice QUALITY, not just size.

And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in
the tank the better the filtration and the more partial water
changes you will need to perform.

Only 1 small GF at the moment. I would never put in more than 2 small
or medium sized GF in it. IMHO I don't think a 20gal should sustain
more than 6-7 inches total of fat-bodied fish like GF in normal
maintenance routines.

I never go by inches of fish. It just doesn't work out for me. GF do much
better if they have a companion. Keep at least two together. Add the
second one when the cycle is finished. You will soon become as addicted to
these little beauties as I am. :-) They've been a lifelong passion of
mine. I just set up a 680g outdoor aboveground pool for my Shubunkins.
Some of my fancies will spend the summer outdoors in 150g pools. Some
fancies do well outdoors all year round.

I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water
was always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started
using the HOB filters and the Fluval.

Air-driven box filters seem like very inefficient devices IMHO. They
don't seem capable of the same mechanical filtration of these
submersible canisters, etc.

Oh, you're right. They do work ok with a light fish load. Any type of
canister would beat them cold.

It's nice that you can use floss in them, which can filter tinier
particles and hold biobugs. But what I've seen is that it's quite
easy to have too much floss or gunk so the filtering power drops to
nothing. But putting in too little floss results in water just
traveling around, rather than through, the floss. Both problems seem
easy to accomplish and would jeopardize water quality.

You quickly learn how much floss to use and what color to change it at.
Floss is dirt cheap when you buy Quilt Batting at Wal*Mart. Just toss and
add more. I always kept fine gravel in the bottom to weight them down and
act as a bio-filter.

Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter
or internal sponge filter.

Is that really true?

YES! And we lose power here as I live way out in the country. If it's not
lightening hitting a pole it's some drunk..... :-( We keep a kerosene
heater handy, candles and kerosene lamps.

I would think that anything that would come so
easily out of the filter media when it is off & in a still tank would
either be loose particles (not so different than what's on/in the
gravel) that would quickly get sucked in again when turned on,

Have you ever SMELLED a filter that was deprived of power (water flow) for
several hours? Some already smell foul - who would want to pump that back
into the tank? When we lose power for an hour or more I pull the sponges
from the Aquaclears and rinse them out in tank water.

or the
gooey almost liquid crud that probably gets forced through the media
normally anyway. Either way this stuff is slowly rotting in the water
regardless of whether it's in the filter or not, although being in a
running filter means it breaks down faster.

That's why squeezing the sponges is important. I don't let mine turn into
slimy masses of gook and globs...... On top of the sponges sit the bags of
tiny bio-balls or sintered glass bio beads. They get a weekly quick swish
in tank water as well. But remember - it's whatever works for YOU and YOUR
fish.

I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial
water change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the
color of that powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

I haven't bought a diatomaceous earth filter because me research seems
to indicate that it is not necessary for normal, healthy
circumstances.

This is true - I have them because they polish the water and remove what
goes right through a regular filter. I only use mine after a water change.

According to some sources it is contraindicated unless
there is a specific problem as it can filter out some of the biobugs;
the last thing you want to do in a GF tank, esp around the time of a
water change.

The bio-bugs are ATTACHED the things in the aquarium. Very few are floating
around free in the water. Look what the DE filter is removing OTOH,... all
that fine crapola that goes right through sponges and floss. :-)

I almost bought one for my planted tropical tank because of the
cloudiness from the fluorite. But I got talked out of it. I added
some clarifying solution to the new tank a few times. Now even that
isn't needed anymore. Instead all it takes is some floss in my rena
XP3 for beautiful results, even after planting or sloppy water
changes. Both tanks "look" clean, smell right, and water parameters
are correct. You probably have higher standards but right now that's
good enough for me.

Like I sad above - whatever works for YOU! :-)

GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.

I understand that. That's why I'm running this past this group
instead of potentially wasting money on failed experiments that would
affect with my GF's health (& my stress level).

I value the recommendations from members in this group and wanted to
understand them a little better. I thought looking at the issue a
little deeper than usual might be useful, not only for myself, but for
other readers here. Thanks to you and all for the responses thus far.

You may also want to ask this on the misc (alt.aquaria.freshwater.misc)
group as more people pass through there than they do here.

I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.

Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?

I'm very close to doing that.

If they don't do the job you can always save it for a backup.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o