Mystery crash

[Gunther]

Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and > 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
first cycled up over 18 months ago.

A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
but I think the situation is under control now.
I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
means 3 fish, 2" max.)

The big mystery is - What happened??
I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.

Some possible factors -
- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
- The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
could handle?

Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.

Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now.

[Donald Kerns]

Gunther wrote:

> - as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
> I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
> that was the plan.

Um... I think you're supposed to use both together... (At least I always
have).

The high nitrates makes me wonder about gunk in the gravel/substrate or
trapped in the filter media. IIRC you are a sand sorta guy, right?

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

[Donald Kerns]

Gunther wrote:

> Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now.

[IANAD]
If you're visiting a dentist at 10:30ish at night, may I recommend a
clove oil soaked piece of cotton ball on whatever tooth part is causing
pain. (As a fishkeeper you just might have clove oil (eugenol) in
stock)

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
> Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
> astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and > 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
> still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
> the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
> first cycled up over 18 months ago.
>
> A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
> damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
> but I think the situation is under control now.
> I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
> and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
> slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
> means 3 fish, 2" max.)
>
> The big mystery is - What happened??
> I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
> whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
> and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.
>
> Some possible factors -
> - as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
> I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
> that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
> doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
> - The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
> a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
> then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
> laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
> could handle?
>
> Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
> feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.

Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates < 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Gunther wrote:
>[i]
> > Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now.
>
>
> If you're visiting a dentist at 10:30ish at night, may I recommend a
> clove oil soaked piece of cotton ball on whatever tooth part is causing
> pain. (As a fishkeeper you just might have clove oil (eugenol) in
> stock)
>

:-)
The timestamp was accurate, but that msg spent about 10 hours in
queued in my outbasket. I pushed the "send" button at around
noon-thirty, then shut down my system without thinking. The next
time I fired up the newsreader, it got sent.
G

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Gunther wrote:
>
> > - as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
> > I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
> > that was the plan.
>
> Um... I think you're supposed to use both together... (At least I always
> have).

I do as well, but I've always used Amquel as an afterthought:
a couple of teaspoons of novaqua as the main dechlor + 1 of
amquel as insurance. As of Feb 1st I reversed the roles:
2 tsp amquel for dechlor + 1 of novaqua for it's slime effect.

>
> The high nitrates makes me wonder about gunk in the gravel/substrate or
> trapped in the filter media. IIRC you are a sand sorta guy, right?

Yes, I am a sand sorta guy, and this tank does have sand.
In this particular tank it's a fairly coarse black sand that's
easy to spot when it's where it oughtn't be. I'm pretty careful
about keeping this particular tank's filters clean also, because
it's one of those #%$&! Eclipse things that I think is poorly
designed. In fact, 6 days prior to the calamity I had cleaned
the filter pretty well, and had seen no evidence of overflow
or clogging.

As for gunk in the substrate.... I suppose it's possible, tho
I'm pretty strict about vacuuuuuming it during PWCs. It's not
deep enough to escape processing.... I'll cogitate on this
awhile.

As of this AM, it would appear that I'm not out of the woods
yet. The real jewel of this tank, a beautiful well-decorated
chubby-cheeked calico Oranda is now acting decidedly stressed,
tho not like the white one, who has always been weak and runty.

Gunther

>
> -D
>

[Tom La Bron]

Gunther,

I noticed in your relating your aquarium specifics you never mentioned pH or
KH, which either one could see a change and your problem. Is your water
soft or on the hard side?

When all is said and done it was probably the result of the egg laying that
shot up the nitrite and since you tank is overstocked slightly, these
conditions could have caused the problem. The reason that I express concern
about the KH is that this is more instrumental in the nitrite to nitrate
conversion than the conversion of ammonia to nitrite. If the KH was too low
and/or exhausted, this could have prevented more nitrite from being
converted, which resulted in the elevated nitrate, because of the additional
protein conversion because of the eggs.

In any event, just a thought.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------------------
"Gunther" > wrote in message >
> Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D
>
> Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
> after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
> nitrates < 10ppm.
>
> It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
> chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
> a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
> first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
> That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
> (b) I'm used to it.
> But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
> house doing fine?
>
> Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
> house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
> of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
> of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
> chance I get.
> Any problems there?
>
> I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
> healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
> I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.
>
> BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
> (wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)
>
> Gunther
>

[Kodiak]

Ok, just a guess, when my Nitrate gets over 50, my PH is usually crashing.
If your KH was getting low, you have nothing to support PH, then water
usually
goes acidic very fast, maybe your fish has suffered more from PH crash
than Nitrate poisoning. Sometimes my city water KH gets down to 30ppm,
normally it's around 80ppm or more. Maybe the city guys forgot to harden
the water.
....Kodiak

"Gunther" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >,
> says...
> > Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
> > Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
> > astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and > 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
> > still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
> > the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
> > first cycled up over 18 months ago.
> >
> > A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
> > damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
> > but I think the situation is under control now.
> > I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
> > and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
> > slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
> > means 3 fish, 2" max.)
> >
> > The big mystery is - What happened??
> > I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
> > whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
> > and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.
> >
> > Some possible factors -
> > - as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
> > I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
> > that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
> > doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
> > - The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
> > a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
> > then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
> > laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
> > could handle?
> >
> > Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
> > feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.
>
> Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D
>
> Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
> after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
> nitrates < 10ppm.
>
> It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
> chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
> a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
> first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
> That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
> (b) I'm used to it.
> But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
> house doing fine?
>
> Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
> house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
> of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
> of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
> chance I get.
> Any problems there?
>
> I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
> healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
> I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.
>
> BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
> (wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)
>
> Gunther
>

[[email protected]]

yup... like dumping a load of food in the tank. was there a male in the tank too?
Ingrid

Gunther > wrote:
> - The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
> a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
> then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
> laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
> could handle?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Gunther,
>
> I noticed in your relating your aquarium specifics you never mentioned pH or
> KH, which either one could see a change and your problem. Is your water
> soft or on the hard side?

Well, pH is the same as always, around 7.3 +/- , and I've
always thought of our water as being middle of the road.
It's not what you'd call soft, but I've lived with harder.
However, I didn't measure the pH of the nasty water --
as soon as I saw the elevated nitrite I grabbed the
python. KH I cannot measure. Need I invest in another kit?
Apparently it wouldn't hurt me to go read up on KH/GH at any rate.

I'm willing to believe the egg theory myself. As I said, once I caught
it and changed out the water, all has been fine, chemistry-wise. The
problem is I was slow to detect the problem, and the fish took a
lot of damage and/or stress. Slightly clamped and red streaked
fins on the worst (I fear she may not make it), and a young Moor
is acting weirder than usual. Luckily, the one I'm pulling for
the most seems to be holding his own for now. I'm now worried
about 2ndary problems due to compromised immune systems.

On the subject of test kits: is there any reason to suspect
Aquarium Pharm test kits are less accurate than other brands?
A local LFS guy swears they're not worth beans since they can
give outright false readings, and he prefers strips over _any_
brand of liquid test kits. I just bought AP's holy trinity
last month, and cannot justify trashing them and buying
all new tests kits. Opinions?

Finally, this same LFS guys says that despite what I read in
the local papers, Sunnyvale (where I live) water has used
chloramine for the past 15 years, so it's probably not an
issue in this case. Hmmm...

Gunther

>
> When all is said and done it was probably the result of the egg laying that
> shot up the nitrite and since you tank is overstocked slightly, these
> conditions could have caused the problem. The reason that I express concern
> about the KH is that this is more instrumental in the nitrite to nitrate
> conversion than the conversion of ammonia to nitrite. If the KH was too low
> and/or exhausted, this could have prevented more nitrite from being
> converted, which resulted in the elevated nitrate, because of the additional
> protein conversion because of the eggs.
>
> In any event, just a thought.
>
> Tom L.L.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> "Gunther" > wrote in message >
> > Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D
> >
> > Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
> > after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
> > nitrates < 10ppm.
> >
> > It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
> > chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
> > a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
> > first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
> > That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
> > (b) I'm used to it.
> > But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
> > house doing fine?
> >
> > Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
> > house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
> > of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
> > of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
> > chance I get.
> > Any problems there?
> >
> > I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
> > healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
> > I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.
> >
> > BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
> > (wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)
> >
> > Gunther
> >
>
>
>

[Gunther]

In article >, dr-
says...
> yup... like dumping a load of food in the tank. was there a male in the tank too?

Yup, and he did his duty, too.
Damn.....once again, my fish suffer because of my ignorance.
(hangs head in shame...)

Gunther


> Ingrid
>
> Gunther > wrote:
> > - The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
> > a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
> > then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
> > laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
> > could handle?
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.
>

[Donald Kerns]

Gunther wrote:

> Finally, this same LFS guys says that despite what I read in
> the local papers, Sunnyvale (where I live) water has used
> chloramine for the past 15 years, so it's probably not an
> issue in this case.

Yah, at work I've seen chloramine signs over the past year or two
(ammonia readings after dechlor), so I tend to believe the LFS on that
count.

As for the AP being junk? I haven't had any problems. I use AP, one LFS
uses tetra and the other uses AP.

One thing to remember expectation-wise is that the test kits probably
aren't exactly accurate, meaning you are going to get some variance in
readings between the different manufactures and different chemical
tests. They should be in the same ballpark, but don't expect LFS
chemical tests to give 2 significant figure accuracy.

In most hobby applications we're really using them as relative
indicators. i.e. 0 ammonia or detectable ammonia. Twice as much
nitrate as before. etc...

For that purpose they're "just fine."

Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP
nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the
water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own
measurements...

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
....
> In most hobby applications we're really using them as relative
> indicators. i.e. 0 ammonia or detectable ammonia. Twice as much
> nitrate as before. etc...

Agreed, and they do what I require of them.

> Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP
> nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the
> water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own
> measurements...

That's interesting, could well have been a factor in my case as well.
In only 6 days, my tank went from 0/0/10 to 0/0.5/80+ppm. I can
certainly believe that a huge ammonia spike would cause that pattern,
but those numbers? Frankly, I pretty much ignored the nitrate reading
at the time since I considered the nitrites danger enough, but I seem
to recall that it was actually off the chart.
As we said above, these aren't really quantitative tests so much as
trinary indicators (good/so-so/bad) but still .....


Well, as I write this, my youngest, a juvenile Moor, has succumbed to
the stress of it all and rests in the freezer awaiting burial under
the lemon bush. Fertile Myrtle (the white female oranda) looks not
much better. I still hold out hope for Paprika (nee Pepper, the
proud papa-to-be) since he's alert and active, but, as always,
time will tell the wiser.

Gunther

"Who cares what you think?" ....
George W. Bush,
Philadelphia, 2001"

[Donald Kerns]

Gunther wrote:

>> Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP
>> nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the
>> water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own
>> measurements...
>
> That's interesting, could well have been a factor in my case as well.
> In only 6 days, my tank went from 0/0/10 to 0/0.5/80+ppm. I can
> certainly believe that a huge ammonia spike would cause that pattern,
> but those numbers? Frankly, I pretty much ignored the nitrate reading
> at the time since I considered the nitrites danger enough, but I seem
> to recall that it was actually off the chart.
>

Check out
"http://www.kernsanalysis.com/fish/cycletest.png"
NO2 is in green, NO3 is in blue.

Keep in mind that this was a brand new un-cycled tank. No reason at all
for there to be NO3 that early.

And then take a look at the correlation between the two lines... Not
perfect, but really close... also given that there was no reason to
expect the NO3...

As I said AP claims the NO3 test kit doesn't false positive when NO2 is
in the water... Draw your own conclusions...

-Donald
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Gunther wrote:
>
> >> Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP
> >> nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the
> >> water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own
> >> measurements...
> >
> > That's interesting, could well have been a factor in my case as well.
> > In only 6 days, my tank went from 0/0/10 to 0/0.5/80+ppm. I can
> > certainly believe that a huge ammonia spike would cause that pattern,
> > but those numbers? Frankly, I pretty much ignored the nitrate reading
> > at the time since I considered the nitrites danger enough, but I seem
> > to recall that it was actually off the chart.
> >
>
> Check out
> "http://www.kernsanalysis.com/fish/cycletest.png"
> NO2 is in green, NO3 is in blue.
>
> Keep in mind that this was a brand new un-cycled tank. No reason at all
> for there to be NO3 that early.
>
> And then take a look at the correlation between the two lines... Not
> perfect, but really close... also given that there was no reason to
> expect the NO3...
>
> As I said AP claims the NO3 test kit doesn't false positive when NO2 is
> in the water... Draw your own conclusions...

Yup...the fact that you saw NO3 rise simultaneously with NO2 is pretty
much a smoking gun, innit?
So I'll start using my Magic 8-Ball instead of a nitrate test:
"Outlook favorable" "Ask me later" ....

Gunther

[Donald Kerns]

Gunther wrote:

> So I'll start using my Magic 8-Ball instead of a nitrate test:
> "Outlook favorable" "Ask me later" ....
>

Well, test both NO2 AND NO3, if you detect NO2 throw your NO3 results
away. You would anyway because non-zero NO2 is a clear and present
danger...

You know this, I'm just writing to the record and lurking newbies...

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

[Azul]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:57:59 GMT, Gunther >
wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>...
>> In most hobby applications we're really using them as relative
>> indicators. i.e. 0 ammonia or detectable ammonia. Twice as much
>> nitrate as before. etc...
>
>Agreed, and they do what I require of them.
>
>> Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP
>> nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the
>> water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own
>> measurements...
>
>That's interesting, could well have been a factor in my case as well.
>In only 6 days, my tank went from 0/0/10 to 0/0.5/80+ppm. I can
>certainly believe that a huge ammonia spike would cause that pattern,
>but those numbers? Frankly, I pretty much ignored the nitrate reading
>at the time since I considered the nitrites danger enough, but I seem
>to recall that it was actually off the chart.
>As we said above, these aren't really quantitative tests so much as
>trinary indicators (good/so-so/bad) but still .....
>
>
>Well, as I write this, my youngest, a juvenile Moor, has succumbed to
>the stress of it all and rests in the freezer awaiting burial under
>the lemon bush. Fertile Myrtle (the white female oranda) looks not
>much better. I still hold out hope for Paprika (nee Pepper, the
>proud papa-to-be) since he's alert and active, but, as always,
>time will tell the wiser.
>
>Gunther
>
My sympathies on your loss

Azul

[Kodiak]

Many NitriAte testers test positive when Nitrites are present.
I kow this to be true for Rolph C. Hagen testers.
Could be you didn't have a NitrAte problem.
....Kodiak

"Gunther" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >,
> says...
> > Gunther wrote:
> >
> > >> Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP
> > >> nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the
> > >> water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own
> > >> measurements...
> > >
> > > That's interesting, could well have been a factor in my case as well.
> > > In only 6 days, my tank went from 0/0/10 to 0/0.5/80+ppm. I can
> > > certainly believe that a huge ammonia spike would cause that pattern,
> > > but those numbers? Frankly, I pretty much ignored the nitrate reading
> > > at the time since I considered the nitrites danger enough, but I seem
> > > to recall that it was actually off the chart.
> > >
> >
> > Check out
> > "http://www.kernsanalysis.com/fish/cycletest.png"
> > NO2 is in green, NO3 is in blue.
> >
> > Keep in mind that this was a brand new un-cycled tank. No reason at all
> > for there to be NO3 that early.
> >
> > And then take a look at the correlation between the two lines... Not
> > perfect, but really close... also given that there was no reason to
> > expect the NO3...
> >
> > As I said AP claims the NO3 test kit doesn't false positive when NO2 is
> > in the water... Draw your own conclusions...
>
> Yup...the fact that you saw NO3 rise simultaneously with NO2 is pretty
> much a smoking gun, innit?
> So I'll start using my Magic 8-Ball instead of a nitrate test:
> "Outlook favorable" "Ask me later" ....
>
> Gunther
>

[Kodiak]

Ok, well guess what happened to me (what a coincidence)
My water has been in low KH lately, my PH crashed today.
(It's like I jinxed myself talking to you about this)
I tested 0 Ammo, 0 Nitrite and <10ppm Nitrates, but when I checked my
PH it was down around 6.0 maybe a tad under that. My Pleco instantly died.
This was only 4 days after a thorough cleaning and 30% water.

When i checked KH it was 0, I mean 0, there was none.
Now with a 50% water I'm still down at 6.5 and KH is a bit better
but still bad at 15ppm. Damn why is it still so low? Those city guys?
I took some tap water, let it sit for 12 hours and tested KH at only 25ppm.
Why is it so low all of the sudden? My tapwater KH use to be around 80ppm
Those city guys, i blame the city giys for killing Mr. Victor "the cleaner"
(Pleco).

This is bad news. I know i need calcium rock based spring, crushed
oyster shells etc but right now all i have is baking soda. Can anyone
recommend proper dosage? how many tablespoon per 5 gallon so as
not to bring it up over 0.5 per 24hour? I know this is temporary, am i
wasting time or will this at least bring temporary relief?
Anyone with experience using baking soda, please help.
....Kodiak

"Kodiak" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ok, just a guess, when my Nitrate gets over 50, my PH is usually crashing.
> If your KH was getting low, you have nothing to support PH, then water
> usually
> goes acidic very fast, maybe your fish has suffered more from PH crash
> than Nitrate poisoning. Sometimes my city water KH gets down to 30ppm,
> normally it's around 80ppm or more. Maybe the city guys forgot to harden
> the water.
> ...Kodiak
>
> "Gunther" > wrote in message
> t...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > > Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
> > > Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
> > > astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and > 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
> > > still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
> > > the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
> > > first cycled up over 18 months ago.
> > >
> > > A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
> > > damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
> > > but I think the situation is under control now.
> > > I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
> > > and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
> > > slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
> > > means 3 fish, 2" max.)
> > >
> > > The big mystery is - What happened??
> > > I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
> > > whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
> > > and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.
> > >
> > > Some possible factors -
> > > - as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
> > > I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
> > > that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
> > > doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
> > > - The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs
over
> > > a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
> > > then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
> > > laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
> > > could handle?
> > >
> > > Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
> > > feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.
> >
> > Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D
> >
> > Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
> > after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
> > nitrates < 10ppm.
> >
> > It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
> > chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
> > a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
> > first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
> > That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
> > (b) I'm used to it.
> > But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
> > house doing fine?
> >
> > Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
> > house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
> > of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
> > of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
> > chance I get.
> > Any problems there?
> >
> > I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
> > healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
> > I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.
> >
> > BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
> > (wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)
> >
> > Gunther
> >
>
>

[BErney1014]

>Anyone with experience using baking soda, please help.

I have used it for many years. You will be better off using Equilibrium if you
have a low GH too.
Your thorough tank cleaning may have started a downturn and the low carbonates
didn't help. A higher level of KH and GH is necessary to maintain beneficial
bacterial. You can get specifics, exact levels, from Aquatic Eco System specs.

[Kodiak]

Well by thorough cleaning, i meant only
siphoned the gravel very well, nitrates very low.
I didn't clean the filter and I only changed 30% water.
How could that cause PH to crash? Am I removing
hardness when I clean off excessive Nitrate?

After a 50% PH went from 6 to 6.5.
Then after 12 hours I added 1tsp baking soda (tank is 33gal)
I am back at PH 7.5, and KH is back up to a whopping 60.
Fish seem to be very happy now, but as everyone says on
this group, baking soda is only temporary. I will keep an eye on it.
....Kodiak

"BErney1014" > wrote in message
...
> >Anyone with experience using baking soda, please help.
>
> I have used it for many years. You will be better off using Equilibrium if
you
> have a low GH too.
> Your thorough tank cleaning may have started a downturn and the low
carbonates
> didn't help. A higher level of KH and GH is necessary to maintain
beneficial
> bacterial. You can get specifics, exact levels, from Aquatic Eco System
specs.

[Dark Phoenix]

Gunther, so sorry to hear about your loss. I hope the other fish perks up.

--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix

Here I am! Now, what were your other two wishes?

[BErney1014]

>Well by thorough cleaning, i meant only
>siphoned the gravel very well, nitrates very low.
>I didn't clean the filter and I only changed 30% water.
>How could that cause PH to crash? Am I removing
>hardness when I clean off excessive Nitrate?

Cleaning off nitrate is a misnomer.
When you cleaned you disrupted the bacteria and the few carbonates you had
probably were utilized in recovery.
Without knowing your GH it is difficult to understand your situation.

[Kodiak]

There was no KH left in the tank
GH was also very low hovering around 30ppm, it seems my city
is taking the hardness out of my water. Is it possible to disrupt bacteria
even if your really careful? I use 48hour airstone aged temperature matched
water with recommended dechlorinator dosage.

previous post--->
"I tested 0 Ammo, 0 Nitrite and <10ppm Nitrates, but when I checked my
PH it was down around 6.0 maybe a tad under that. My Pleco instantly died.
This was only 4 days after a thorough cleaning and 30% water.

When i checked KH it was 0, I mean 0, there was none.
Now with a 50% water I'm still down at 6.5 and KH is a bit better
but still bad at 15ppm. Damn why is it still so low? Those city guys?
I took some tap water, let it sit for 12 hours and tested KH at only 25ppm.
Why is it so low all of the sudden? My tapwater KH use to be around 80ppm"
....Kodiak

"BErney1014" > wrote in message
...
> >Well by thorough cleaning, i meant only
> >siphoned the gravel very well, nitrates very low.
> >I didn't clean the filter and I only changed 30% water.
> >How could that cause PH to crash? Am I removing
> >hardness when I clean off excessive Nitrate?
>
> Cleaning off nitrate is a misnomer.
> When you cleaned you disrupted the bacteria and the few carbonates you had
> probably were utilized in recovery.
> Without knowing your GH it is difficult to understand your situation.

[BErney1014]

>There was no KH left in the tank
>GH was also very low hovering around 30ppm, it seems my city
>is taking the hardness out of my water. Is it possible to disrupt bacteria
>even if your really careful?

Of course, especially if you don't have the proper levels to maintain
bioconversion.
Here are the basics from the site I suggested previously.

******
The Relationship of Hardness, Alkalinity and Carbon Dioxide

...In aquatic systems, adequate hardness is important and depends mostly on
the concentration of calcium and magnesium ions. Hardness is particularly
important to newly hatched fish that obtain much of their calcium directly from
the water. Generally, freshwater fish do best when hardness is maintained near
100 mg/liter CaCO3.
To increase hardness, use calcium chloride.
Why is alkalinity important?
Alkalinity is the buffering capacity of water. That is, its ability to maintain
a pH of 7.0 or above. In aquaculture, alkalinity is most often influenced by
the bicarbonate ion (the negative ion in sodium bicarbonate). When kept above
100 mg/liter CaCO3, alkalinity will usually be an effective buffer, depending
on the level of carbon dioxide in the water (see graph). Alkalinity should not
fall below 80 mg/liter CaCO3, as it is the source of carbon for nitrifying
bacteria and is consumed during nitrification.
To increase alkalinity, add sodium bicarbonate. To decrease alkalinity, add
acid.
How are hardness and alkalinity related?
Hardness and alkalinity are both expressed as mg/liter CaCO3. In tap water,
when the concentration of hardness and alkalinity are the same, both are
probably due to dissolved calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate does not
dissolve well above pH 7.0, so other chemicals like calcium chloride and sodium
bicarbonate can be used to adjust hardness and alkalinity independently. If
alkalinity and hardness are too high, calcium carbonate will precipitate on air
diffusers, heaters and other submerged equipment.
How is alkalinity affected by carbon dioxide?
Carbon dioxide may build up in water as a result of respiration by fish and
bacteria. In poorly buffered water, this can cause a drop in pH below 7.0 that
can inhibit nitrification. Aeration can drive off CO2 and, in the process,
raise the pH. Adequate alkalinity will ensure stable pH and provide carbon for
nitrifying bacteria. Carbon dioxide level can be estimated, using the graph on
this page, if the pH and alkalinity are known.

[Kodiak]

Hey thanks for the tip Berney, I missed it originally.
Had a question about your info....

"Alkalinity should not
fall below 80 mg/liter CaCO3, as it is the source of carbon for nitrifying
bacteria and is consumed during nitrification."

Would it help to add carbon media in the filter?

....Kodiak

"BErney1014" > wrote in message
...
> >There was no KH left in the tank
> >GH was also very low hovering around 30ppm, it seems my city
> >is taking the hardness out of my water. Is it possible to disrupt
bacteria
> >even if your really careful?
>
> Of course, especially if you don't have the proper levels to maintain
> bioconversion.
> Here are the basics from the site I suggested previously.
>
> *****
> The Relationship of Hardness, Alkalinity and Carbon Dioxide
>
> ...In aquatic systems, adequate hardness is important and depends mostly
on
> the concentration of calcium and magnesium ions. Hardness is particularly
> important to newly hatched fish that obtain much of their calcium directly
from
> the water. Generally, freshwater fish do best when hardness is maintained
near
> 100 mg/liter CaCO3.
> To increase hardness, use calcium chloride.
> Why is alkalinity important?
> Alkalinity is the buffering capacity of water. That is, its ability to
maintain
> a pH of 7.0 or above. In aquaculture, alkalinity is most often influenced
by
> the bicarbonate ion (the negative ion in sodium bicarbonate). When kept
above
> 100 mg/liter CaCO3, alkalinity will usually be an effective buffer,
depending
> on the level of carbon dioxide in the water (see graph). Alkalinity should
not
> fall below 80 mg/liter CaCO3, as it is the source of carbon for nitrifying
> bacteria and is consumed during nitrification.
> To increase alkalinity, add sodium bicarbonate. To decrease alkalinity,
add
> acid.
> How are hardness and alkalinity related?
> Hardness and alkalinity are both expressed as mg/liter CaCO3. In tap
water,
> when the concentration of hardness and alkalinity are the same, both are
> probably due to dissolved calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate does not
> dissolve well above pH 7.0, so other chemicals like calcium chloride and
sodium
> bicarbonate can be used to adjust hardness and alkalinity independently.
If
> alkalinity and hardness are too high, calcium carbonate will precipitate
on air
> diffusers, heaters and other submerged equipment.
> How is alkalinity affected by carbon dioxide?
> Carbon dioxide may build up in water as a result of respiration by fish
and
> bacteria. In poorly buffered water, this can cause a drop in pH below 7.0
that
> can inhibit nitrification. Aeration can drive off CO2 and, in the process,
> raise the pH. Adequate alkalinity will ensure stable pH and provide carbon
for
> nitrifying bacteria. Carbon dioxide level can be estimated, using the
graph on
> this page, if the pH and alkalinity are known.

[BErney1014]

>"Alkalinity should not
>fall below 80 mg/liter CaCO3, as it is the source of carbon for nitrifying
>bacteria and is consumed during nitrification."
>
>Would it help to add carbon media in the filter?

No, the life forms won't use that form of carbon, they will colonize on it
though.
Carbon, as in filters, is more fuel for voodoo science. It is sometimes used as
media for biofilters. It will reach equilibrium as a filter and not give off
toxins.

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Gunther, so sorry to hear about your loss. I hope the other fish perks up.

Thanks for the good wishes, but despite my efforts,
I've got an empty tank now. :-/
Gunther

[Donald K]

Gunther wrote:

> In article >,
> says...
>> Gunther, so sorry to hear about your loss. I hope the other fish
>> perks up.
>
> Thanks for the good wishes, but despite my efforts,
> I've got an empty tank now. :-/

owwie!

(removes hat and bows head...)

-D
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright