Mystery crash

Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
first cycled up over 18 months ago.

A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
but I think the situation is under control now.
I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
means 3 fish, 2" max.)

The big mystery is - What happened??
I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.

Some possible factors -
- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
- The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
could handle?

Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.

Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now.

Gunther wrote:

- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan.

Um... I think you're supposed to use both together... (At least I always
have).

The high nitrates makes me wonder about gunk in the gravel/substrate or
trapped in the filter media. IIRC you are a sand sorta guy, right?

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

Gunther wrote:

Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now.

[IANAD]
If you're visiting a dentist at 10:30ish at night, may I recommend a
clove oil soaked piece of cotton ball on whatever tooth part is causing
pain. (As a fishkeeper you just might have clove oil (eugenol) in
stock)

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

In article ,
says...
Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
first cycled up over 18 months ago.

A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
but I think the situation is under control now.
I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
means 3 fish, 2" max.)

The big mystery is - What happened??
I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.

Some possible factors -
- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
- The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
could handle?

Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.

Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther

In article ,
says...
Gunther wrote:

Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now.

[IANAD]
If you're visiting a dentist at 10:30ish at night, may I recommend a
clove oil soaked piece of cotton ball on whatever tooth part is causing
pain. (As a fishkeeper you just might have clove oil (eugenol) in
stock)


:-)
The timestamp was accurate, but that msg spent about 10 hours in
queued in my outbasket. I pushed the "send" button at around
noon-thirty, then shut down my system without thinking. The next
time I fired up the newsreader, it got sent.
G

In article ,
says...
Gunther wrote:

- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan.

Um... I think you're supposed to use both together... (At least I always
have).

I do as well, but I've always used Amquel as an afterthought:
a couple of teaspoons of novaqua as the main dechlor + 1 of
amquel as insurance. As of Feb 1st I reversed the roles:
2 tsp amquel for dechlor + 1 of novaqua for it's slime effect.


The high nitrates makes me wonder about gunk in the gravel/substrate or
trapped in the filter media. IIRC you are a sand sorta guy, right?

Yes, I am a sand sorta guy, and this tank does have sand.
In this particular tank it's a fairly coarse black sand that's
easy to spot when it's where it oughtn't be. I'm pretty careful
about keeping this particular tank's filters clean also, because
it's one of those #%$&! Eclipse things that I think is poorly
designed. In fact, 6 days prior to the calamity I had cleaned
the filter pretty well, and had seen no evidence of overflow
or clogging.

As for gunk in the substrate.... I suppose it's possible, tho
I'm pretty strict about vacuuuuuming it during PWCs. It's not
deep enough to escape processing.... I'll cogitate on this
awhile.

As of this AM, it would appear that I'm not out of the woods
yet. The real jewel of this tank, a beautiful well-decorated
chubby-cheeked calico Oranda is now acting decidedly stressed,
tho not like the white one, who has always been weak and runty.

Gunther


-D

Gunther,

I noticed in your relating your aquarium specifics you never mentioned pH or
KH, which either one could see a change and your problem. Is your water
soft or on the hard side?

When all is said and done it was probably the result of the egg laying that
shot up the nitrite and since you tank is overstocked slightly, these
conditions could have caused the problem. The reason that I express concern
about the KH is that this is more instrumental in the nitrite to nitrate
conversion than the conversion of ammonia to nitrite. If the KH was too low
and/or exhausted, this could have prevented more nitrite from being
converted, which resulted in the elevated nitrate, because of the additional
protein conversion because of the eggs.

In any event, just a thought.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------------------
"Gunther" wrote in message
Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther

Ok, just a guess, when my Nitrate gets over 50, my PH is usually crashing.
If your KH was getting low, you have nothing to support PH, then water
usually
goes acidic very fast, maybe your fish has suffered more from PH crash
than Nitrate poisoning. Sometimes my city water KH gets down to 30ppm,
normally it's around 80ppm or more. Maybe the city guys forgot to harden
the water.
....Kodiak

"Gunther" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...
Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
first cycled up over 18 months ago.

A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
but I think the situation is under control now.
I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
means 3 fish, 2" max.)

The big mystery is - What happened??
I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.

Some possible factors -
- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
- The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
could handle?

Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.

Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther

yup... like dumping a load of food in the tank. was there a male in the tank too?
Ingrid

Gunther wrote:
- The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
could handle?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In article ,
says...
Gunther,

I noticed in your relating your aquarium specifics you never mentioned pH or
KH, which either one could see a change and your problem. Is your water
soft or on the hard side?

Well, pH is the same as always, around 7.3 +/- , and I've
always thought of our water as being middle of the road.
It's not what you'd call soft, but I've lived with harder.
However, I didn't measure the pH of the nasty water --
as soon as I saw the elevated nitrite I grabbed the
python. KH I cannot measure. Need I invest in another kit?
Apparently it wouldn't hurt me to go read up on KH/GH at any rate.

I'm willing to believe the egg theory myself. As I said, once I caught
it and changed out the water, all has been fine, chemistry-wise. The
problem is I was slow to detect the problem, and the fish took a
lot of damage and/or stress. Slightly clamped and red streaked
fins on the worst (I fear she may not make it), and a young Moor
is acting weirder than usual. Luckily, the one I'm pulling for
the most seems to be holding his own for now. I'm now worried
about 2ndary problems due to compromised immune systems.

On the subject of test kits: is there any reason to suspect
Aquarium Pharm test kits are less accurate than other brands?
A local LFS guy swears they're not worth beans since they can
give outright false readings, and he prefers strips over _any_
brand of liquid test kits. I just bought AP's holy trinity
last month, and cannot justify trashing them and buying
all new tests kits. Opinions?

Finally, this same LFS guys says that despite what I read in
the local papers, Sunnyvale (where I live) water has used
chloramine for the past 15 years, so it's probably not an
issue in this case. Hmmm...

Gunther


When all is said and done it was probably the result of the egg laying that
shot up the nitrite and since you tank is overstocked slightly, these
conditions could have caused the problem. The reason that I express concern
about the KH is that this is more instrumental in the nitrite to nitrate
conversion than the conversion of ammonia to nitrite. If the KH was too low
and/or exhausted, this could have prevented more nitrite from being
converted, which resulted in the elevated nitrate, because of the additional
protein conversion because of the eggs.

In any event, just a thought.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------------------
"Gunther" wrote in message
Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther