Fishkeeping - Neon tetras dropping like flies

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Neon tetras dropping like flies

NetMax wrote:
"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...

NetMax wrote:

"Gill Passman" wrote in message

NetMax wrote:

"Altum" wrote in message

Gill Passman wrote:

I bought 12 Neons for my new tank at the beginning of the month (just
over 3 weeks ago).

snip

The other possibility is Flavobacterium, presenting as "saddleback
disease". If your neons were stressed or damaged in shipping, they may
be susceptible to it. The rapid deaths are typical of Flavobacterium
septicemia. You can treat Flavobacterium in quarantine with
acriflavine & salt if the disease has not gone internal. Potassium
permanganate is supposed to work too. I doubt that neons would survive
a salt dip.

snip

From my very limited experience, the symptoms appear nearly identical to
NTD, and the contagion limits itself to the Neons (but I never exposed
other tetras to it). This is consistent with NTD, however I don't think
true NTD acts that quickly, nor does it attack so many fish
simultaneously, which is why I treated it as an external bacterial
infection. Also, NTD is not treatable (in a practical sense), and I was
successful treating this (after about 3 different episodes) which also
suggests it was just a quick nasty bacteria (saddleback). In hindsight,
I should have added a Platy to the tank. They are susceptible to
saddleback and not NTD. I just don't think of adding fish to tanks under
medication.

snip

Well, I don't know for sure how long the fish have been at the LFS or how
long their exposure might have been...I will check with them...the kill
off is one or two a day over a week - average one a day now I've found the
5th one again....I could add a Platy but it seems quite mean to put a
healthy platy into a diseased tank just to get a diagnosis...so won't be
doing it....

Neon's don't seem to be the hardiest of fish...although one of the
cheapest...maybe their lack of hardiness is reflected in the cost (me
being cynical here)....

LOL, If Neons could talk, their last words would be "I feel fine, I feel
great, I'm dead". There doesn't seem to much of a sick & diseased stage
when they encounter a fast acting disease.

If it is something else the fish are best left with the tank being used as
an over-sized QT tank for a few more weeks....I will see what the death
rate is...

I would pull them out now. Chances are, they are either sick, will be sick
or will be carriers.

Maybe they have fallen foul to whatever killed the 2 Panda
Cories....another question to be asking....the LFS believed they were just
weak stock and they do normally warn me off any suspect deliveries....

I have had mixed success with Neons, they usually account for the highest
death rate with new purchases...might be the hard water and high pH....

My main concern is that the Panda cories and Boesman rainbows won't fall
foul to this...from my reading it is unlikely but I just wish I had found
every single body in case they have injested any parasite....

How long does everyone suggest I keep this tank QT'd after the last
death???? As most of you know this is my new pride and joy tank and I was
hoping to move some of my existing fish over into it - but no way if it
will compromise them.....Tetras of any type I guess are out for a number
of months...

One one hand, if saddleback, it acts quickly and dies off relatively
quickly. On the other hand, 130g is a lot of water, and volume skews
expected time periods. I find that unless you target the disease
accurately, there is more of a chance that it lingers in larger tanks. All
in all, your mortality is not completely unexpected. New tank, new fish, I
don't expect serious stability until about 3 months.

Gill

I don't think I'm helping :(. Maybe I should be looking into smuggling you
anti-biotics ;~).

Seriously, pull the weak and affected, look for some stabilization, add the
other fish, again look for stabilization and pull out any suspects. You
don't want any disease to acquire a host to multiply from. Limit the
contagion concentration, give the fish's immune system time to ramp up,
give them lots of fresh water and a varied diet. Personally, I seek a point
of stabilization that contains as many (or more) of the fish I want in that
tank. Then I leave the tank alone for years. When I want more fish, I
usually set up another tank.

I don't think pulling them out is much of an option - I don't have
anywhere to put them even if I can catch them without moving everything
out of the tank.....and there is an awful lot of water to chase them
across - I have problems netting tetras even in much smaller tanks.
Obviously I'm trying to pull them out as soon as I spot any signs of
illness/death (usually go hand in hand it is so quick).

Do you mean that you add all the fish that you want in the tank in one go?

Gill

Neon tetras dropping like flies

Altum wrote:
Gill Passman wrote:

Well, I don't know for sure how long the fish have been at the LFS or
how long their exposure might have been...I will check with them...the
kill off is one or two a day over a week - average one a day now I've
found the 5th one again....I could add a Platy but it seems quite mean
to put a healthy platy into a diseased tank just to get a
diagnosis...so won't be doing it....

Neon's don't seem to be the hardiest of fish...although one of the
cheapest...maybe their lack of hardiness is reflected in the cost (me
being cynical here)....

If it is something else the fish are best left with the tank being
used as an over-sized QT tank for a few more weeks....I will see what
the death rate is...

Maybe they have fallen foul to whatever killed the 2 Panda
Cories....another question to be asking....the LFS believed they were
just weak stock and they do normally warn me off any suspect
deliveries....

I have had mixed success with Neons, they usually account for the
highest death rate with new purchases...might be the hard water and
high pH....

My main concern is that the Panda cories and Boesman rainbows won't
fall foul to this...from my reading it is unlikely but I just wish I
had found every single body in case they have injested any parasite....

How long does everyone suggest I keep this tank QT'd after the last
death???? As most of you know this is my new pride and joy tank and I
was hoping to move some of my existing fish over into it - but no way
if it will compromise them.....Tetras of any type I guess are out for
a number of months...

Gill

I forgot the panda cories! This is probably Flavobacterium since it's
jumping species. It's possible that the shipment of neons got a little
bit of ammonia burn in the gills and its made them vulnerable. Neons
are really packed into those shipping bags! Since this is my "be
open-minded about MelaFix & PimaFix" week, I'd go with PimaFix either in
quarantine, or on the whole tank.

Don't be disheartened. Any tank to which you add new fish is
essentially a quarantine tank for the next couple of months. Remember
that you will take all your losses now - things will settle down a
couple of months after you stop buying livestock.

Just thinking aloud here... Shouldn't the old, smaller tank be the
quarantine? What if you remove the new fish to a spare 40l tank or even
a tub or trashcan with a heater and sponge filter. Use ammonia to keep
the new tank cycled and run it fishless for a couple of weeks. Then
move your old fish into the new tank. Quarantine ALL your new purchases
in the old tank for at least a month - maybe get bigger batches and the
wait for two months?

Would this even work and not expose the old, healthy fish to problems?
Frank? NetMax?

The older smaller tank (4 footer) is no longer going to be torn down -
managed to con my way into keeping it :-)

The plan was to move the fish from the 15 gall (One DG, one Ram, 3
Clowns, 4 Cories and 4 Rummy Noses) and just the Boesman rainbows from
the 4 footer....

In effect, it is only new purchases in the new tank....my existing fish
don't have to move until things settle - they can just stay put....

I'm thinking that it would be less stressful for the new fish to leave
them in situ...I suppose patience is what it is about and I suppose I've
waited a long time already to populate the new tank so a bit longer
isn't really an issue....

Does anyone know if Melafix and Pimafix can be used together? One is
antifungal and the other antibacterial....my money is on it being
parasitical and hopefully just the tetras but you are quite right - I
can't rule out fungal...sigh....

Good news is that remaining 5 have survived the last 36 hours or so
since the last death. No other fish are showing any signs of
anything...one of the remaining is skulking a little under some
driftwood but does come out and shoal with the others from time to
time...no sign of any marks or swimming problems on him...

Gill

Neon tetras dropping like flies

Frank wrote:
Altum wrote,

Shouldn't the old, smaller tank be the quarantine?

If it's Flex. disease (bacterial), I would have them in a 5 or 10 gal.
quarantine tank, tub, or trashcan, but we disagree - I think it's
Oodinum (parasites), and therefore would treat the tank as well as the
fish ;-) ............... Frank

I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt to treat the whole tank....afterall right
now it is one big QT tank and I don't have any other tanks empty at the
moment without moving their occupants into the big tank....so treating
in situ is the easiest to achieve.

If it is parasites would it be effectively treated by just water changes
, and removing any casuaties as soon as I find them, gravel vacs or
should I use a more aggressive treatment such as Protozin (I have armano
shrimps in the tank as well which I'd never be able to catch to remove)?
Or would trying Melafix and PimaFix suffice along with the vacs and
water changes?

Thanks
Gill

Neon tetras dropping like flies

Mr. Gardener wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:17:06 GMT, Altum
wrote:

I forgot the panda cories! This is probably Flavobacterium since it's
jumping species. It's possible that the shipment of neons got a little
bit of ammonia burn in the gills and its made them vulnerable. Neons
are really packed into those shipping bags! Since this is my "be
open-minded about MelaFix & PimaFix" week, I'd go with PimaFix either in
quarantine, or on the whole tank.

In my one grand experiment with Melafix, I used Pima at the same time,
according to label. I will never fully understand the difference
between the two, the label indicates that combining the two
essentially increases the power of Mela. Come to think of it, the
price of that stuff, and a 130 gallon tank for what is it, 7 days?

-- Mister Gardener

Thanks, you just answered my question on whether they could be used
together....been working today so have only just been able to start
trawling through all the great responses I've had on this :-)

Gill

Neon tetras dropping like flies

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...

illness/death (usually go hand in hand it is so quick).

Do you mean that you add all the fish that you want in the tank in one go?
=====================
I hope once this problem is past you can set aside at least one tank for a
quarantine tank and NEVER put new fish in your big tank without at least 14
days in quarantine. For extra protection, Q them for 21 days. Even a 10g
tank off in a corner somewhere would work. Should you get some kind of
disease in that large tank it's going to be a nightmare to sterilize
everything.

My newsreader may have missed a post or two but as I understand it these
neon's were new fish you recently purchased. I don't remember you
mentioning you Q'd them.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Neon tetras dropping like flies

2pods wrote:
"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...

I read the link that Koi-Lo provided and it certainly does sound as if it
is Neon Tetra Disease....one thing I guess is I know have one of the
biggest QT tanks in the hobby :-( - all the fish in the tank have been
exposed and there will be no additions until the thing settles. The fish
had been in the LFS for some weeks so injury through shipping is possibly
not an option although I will take them to task about this - going there
on Thursday....

We can't get anti-biotics over here off the shelf so maybe I will give the
Melafix a try....the bottle is on my desk following recent discussions....

On a positive note I do still have 5 Neons...the missing one turned up for
his dinner...the remaining ones are feeding well. I have managed to get
the majority of the bodies out - maybe missed 1 or 2 max....I'm a little
worried about the Pandas and the Rainbows but hopefully from my reading
they are not quite as susceptible to this as other fish can be...

Thanks guys....a little depressed about all this....

Gill

This happened to 5 of my Neons a while ago, though a large one went two days
ago.
They seemed fine for about 6 months, then one a day until I moved the last
three to the downstairs tank.

Everything was fine until the heavier one started swimming badly.
Almost as if one side was paralyzed, though it was still eating OK.
I thought it had died as it was lying on the gravel, but of course as soon
as the net appears recovery was instantaneous :-)

Unfortunately, the following day there was no sign of him/her despite a
gravel clean.
So who eats fastest, Clown Loaches, SAE's, Weather Loaches, Angels, Corys,
or Platies ?

Peter

Thanks for sharing that....with the information from NetMax, Mr Gardener
and yourself it seems that this Neon problem of mine is quite common....

I've kept them in another tank before and like yours they lastest months
, but the die off was very gradual and seemed more like natural
causes....(well I guess disease is a natural cause)...but not like
something was tearing through them like this time....in my 4 footer I
have two remaining Neons that I've had for around a year I guess....the
others just vanished in the way that you describe - my money was always
on the Plec but all of the others also would take a chomp I'm sure....

Gill

Neon tetras dropping like flies

Flash Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:41:45 -0500, NetMax wrote:

Saddleback, very quick. I used to treat with Kanamycine (or Neomycine) and
(climbs into asbestos overalls) MelaFix (one of the few practical uses I
found for the stuff). This was the primary reason I kept more than one Neon
tank going.

I hate to disagree with you Netmax, but I have NEVER had any
benefit out of melafix. I wonder if it's different here in the
UK - I've tried it for various conditions, but no improvement at
all, except possibly skin repair in my barbs.

What I use is Esha 2000 - freely available in the UK and it does
seem to help pretty much everything! I had an outbreak that sounds
similar in my tetra tank - I added cardinals and didn't know they
weren't quarantined - and Esha 2000 brought a halt to it. I
recommend it very highly.

Anyway, just another opinion to throw into the mix!

I can't remember seeing this in any of the places I go to (UK)....did
you get it off the shelf or order it on-line?

Thanks
Gill

Neon tetras dropping like flies

Koi-Lo wrote:

=====================
I hope once this problem is past you can set aside at least one tank for
a quarantine tank and NEVER put new fish in your big tank without at
least 14 days in quarantine. For extra protection, Q them for 21 days.
Even a 10g tank off in a corner somewhere would work. Should you get
some kind of disease in that large tank it's going to be a nightmare to
sterilize everything.

My newsreader may have missed a post or two but as I understand it these
neon's were new fish you recently purchased. I don't remember you
mentioning you Q'd them.

That's telling them!

Gill's aquarium was new, iirc. Therefore it was a quarantine tank for
the few fish she started with.

Neon tetras dropping like flies - I might have an answer

Altum wrote:
Frank wrote:

Altum wrote,

Flavobacterium isn't always fuzzy......

I have never seen it without it being fuzzy or cottony. Besides, flex.
disease kills fast, even faster than fast with hard alkaline water.
High temps. speeds deaths up even more. Gill said they were dying one a
day for a week - flex is highly contagious and would have wiped out
infected fish long before that. Within 24 hours, those white fuzzy
patchy areas get a reddish rim of which the center turns into an ulcer
(open sore). With larger fish, the ulcer turns yellow to orange in
color (day 3). Smaller fish don't live that long!
http://www.aquamaniacs.net/flex.html take a peek.....
A fish with brownish waxy looking patchs, I would suspect a bacterial
viruse called Lymphocytosis........ Frank

Check this out!

Journal of Fish Diseases
Volume 25 Page 253 - May 2002
doi:10.1046/j.1365-2761.2002.00364.x
Volume 25 Issue 5

Muscle infections in imported neon tetra, Paracheirodon innesi Myers:
limited occurrence of microsporidia and predominance of severe forms of
columnaris disease caused by an Asian genomovar of Flavobacterium columnare
C Michel, S Messiaen & J-F Bernardet

Serious and repeated mortality recently experienced in imported neon
tetra, Paracheirodon innesi Myers, by French ornamental fish traders and
empirically ascribed to the microsporidian Pleistophora hyphessobryconis
on the basis of clinical signs, was investigated. Although Pleistophora
sp. spores were observed in a few cases, laboratory results demonstrated
that similar clinical signs were generally caused by the pathogenic
bacterium Flavobacterium columnare. In all cases, muscle was the main
target tissue, and the most noticeable external signs were limited to
fading of skin colouration and the development of white areas of
necrosis. Three isolates were studied and typed by bacteriological tests
and molecular techniques. Although their phenotypic characteristics were
in accordance with F. columnare descriptions, except for higher optimal
growth temperatures (18–30 °C), they all appeared to differ genetically
from common European and American isolates and to be similar to Asian
isolates recently assigned to a new genomovar by Japanese workers.
Experimental infections suggested the isolates were highly virulent for
ornamental species. The use of polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and
restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) for identification and
detection of the agent in tissue samples, and the implications of this
finding for health control management of imported fish and domestic
species are discussed.

From the article "Antimicrobial testing (Table 3) demonstrated
noticeable resistance to aminosides, polymyxin B and trimethoprim,
inconstant resistance to sulphonamides, and rather limited or
questionable susceptibility to tetracyclines and flumequine. These
results indicate very limited treatment possibilities for infected fish."

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

If it is this, or indeed NTD, I guess the only option is to boost the
fish's immune systems and ensure good water quality....from reading this
it sounds like it just affected Neons.....(or maybe I read this wrong).
I also seem to remember reading somewhere that the term NTD is often
used to account for mysterious deaths in Neon Tetras where other fish
are not affected....(this is not to say that there is not a parasitical
condition that is termed NTD)....

Hmmm....anyway 5 have hung in there for 36 hours - fingers crossed...

Gill