Neon tetras dropping like flies
 

Koi-Lo wrote:

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...

illness/death (usually go hand in hand it is so quick).

Do you mean that you add all the fish that you want in the tank in one
go?

=====================
I hope once this problem is past you can set aside at least one tank for
a quarantine tank and NEVER put new fish in your big tank without at
least 14 days in quarantine. For extra protection, Q them for 21 days.
Even a 10g tank off in a corner somewhere would work. Should you get
some kind of disease in that large tank it's going to be a nightmare to
sterilize everything.

My newsreader may have missed a post or two but as I understand it these
neon's were new fish you recently purchased. I don't remember you
mentioning you Q'd them.

As the only fish in the new tank are recent purchases I've been using it
as one great big QT tank...(the tetras were the first added). I also
have a number of fish sitting in smaller tanks waiting to go in there -
these in "holding" have probably been waiting for 2-3 months effectively
in QT....the plan was to keep the new fish away from the old until such
a time as I had completed buying the new stock for the tank...

I take on board your comment on how much of a nightmare it would be to
sterilize the big tank....

Neon tetras dropping like flies
 

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
NetMax wrote:
"Gill Passman" wrote in message
NetMax wrote:
"Gill Passman" wrote in message
NetMax wrote:
"Altum" wrote in message
Gill Passman wrote:
I bought 12 Neons for my new tank at the beginning of the month
(just over 3 weeks ago).

snip
Seriously, pull the weak and affected, look for some stabilization, add
the other fish, again look for stabilization and pull out any suspects.
You don't want any disease to acquire a host to multiply from. Limit the
contagion concentration, give the fish's immune system time to ramp up,
give them lots of fresh water and a varied diet. Personally, I seek a
point of stabilization that contains as many (or more) of the fish I want
in that tank. Then I leave the tank alone for years. When I want more
fish, I usually set up another tank.

I don't think pulling them out is much of an option - I don't have
anywhere to put them even if I can catch them without moving everything
out of the tank.....and there is an awful lot of water to chase them
across - I have problems netting tetras even in much smaller tanks.
Obviously I'm trying to pull them out as soon as I spot any signs of
illness/death (usually go hand in hand it is so quick).

Use 2 nets, chaser and catcher. Keep the catcher absolutely as still as
possible, until the last moment (if you even need to move it). Move the
chaser slowly corralling them. When they approach the catcher, a quick jerk
can sometimes send them flying into the catcher. Tetras instictively react
first to moving objects (this won't work as well with higher-order cichlids
;~).

Do you mean that you add all the fish that you want in the tank in one go?

Absolutely. If I want 50 fish across 6 species to populate a large tank, I
typically put them (to total about 60) in holding tanks (bare bottom, no
ornaments etc) while I collect them from various sources, pet shops etc.
Once they are all together, they all go into the main tank together.
Behaviorally, this works better than dribbling new additions in every week.
I also move an aged filter over for cycling requirements. My main tank if
the defacto quarantine tank. Now I leave the tank alone (except repairs and
minor things) for about 3 months. Then I typically do a little interior
re-arranging and then leave the tank alone for years except for regular
maintenance. This procedure is fine tuned according to the species. I
might give the smallest and least aggressive fish a 24 hour advantage to
find all the hidey holes, but I'm typically stocking with juveniles, so it's
not a problem in a large tank. While they are all acclimating, I'm feeding
aggressively and in variety, and keeping up water changes. Everytime you
add a new fish, plant, snail etc, it's a vector for diseases, and the object
being added will not always show evidence of disease. Quarantining
procedures often discussed here are a work around, which in my mind should
really be avoided as much as possible.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Gill

Neon tetras dropping like flies
 

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:41:45 -0500, NetMax
wrote:
Saddleback, very quick. I used to treat with Kanamycine (or Neomycine)
and
(climbs into asbestos overalls) MelaFix (one of the few practical uses I
found for the stuff). This was the primary reason I kept more than one
Neon
tank going.

I hate to disagree with you Netmax, but I have NEVER had any
benefit out of melafix. I wonder if it's different here in the
UK - I've tried it for various conditions, but no improvement at
all, except possibly skin repair in my barbs.

I don't think we're disagreeing. You observed no positive results. I
observed positive results when used in conjunction with medication, in one
specific application. Neither is a ringing endorsement ;~).

With the Neons, the Melafix might have bought them a little time and helped
slow or correct fin damage. With small fragile fish, it takes less to
possibly make a difference. These are fish who are vulnerable to just the
medication alone.

Esha 2000 is a product I've never seen on this side of the pond.
--
www.NetMax.tk

What I use is Esha 2000 - freely available in the UK and it does
seem to help pretty much everything! I had an outbreak that sounds
similar in my tetra tank - I added cardinals and didn't know they
weren't quarantined - and Esha 2000 brought a halt to it. I
recommend it very highly.

Anyway, just another opinion to throw into the mix!
--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

Neon tetras dropping like flies
 

NetMax wrote:

Use 2 nets, chaser and catcher. Keep the catcher absolutely as still as
possible, until the last moment (if you even need to move it). Move the
chaser slowly corralling them. When they approach the catcher, a quick jerk
can sometimes send them flying into the catcher. Tetras instictively react
first to moving objects (this won't work as well with higher-order cichlids
;~).

My favorite trick is to put an irresistible food in a net close to the
surface, and wait. Shrimp pellets usually work pretty well. I just
pulled some gambusia out of the pond that way.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Neon tetras dropping like flies - I might have an answer
 

Gill Passman wrote:
Altum wrote:
Frank wrote:

Altum wrote,

Flavobacterium isn't always fuzzy......


I have never seen it without it being fuzzy or cottony. Besides, flex.
disease kills fast, even faster than fast with hard alkaline water.
High temps. speeds deaths up even more. Gill said they were dying one a
day for a week - flex is highly contagious and would have wiped out
infected fish long before that. Within 24 hours, those white fuzzy
patchy areas get a reddish rim of which the center turns into an ulcer
(open sore). With larger fish, the ulcer turns yellow to orange in
color (day 3). Smaller fish don't live that long!
http://www.aquamaniacs.net/flex.html take a peek.....
A fish with brownish waxy looking patchs, I would suspect a bacterial
viruse called Lymphocytosis........ Frank


Check this out!

Journal of Fish Diseases
Volume 25 Page 253 - May 2002
doi:10.1046/j.1365-2761.2002.00364.x
Volume 25 Issue 5


Muscle infections in imported neon tetra, Paracheirodon innesi Myers:
limited occurrence of microsporidia and predominance of severe forms
of columnaris disease caused by an Asian genomovar of Flavobacterium
columnare
C Michel, S Messiaen & J-F Bernardet

Serious and repeated mortality recently experienced in imported neon
tetra, Paracheirodon innesi Myers, by French ornamental fish traders
and empirically ascribed to the microsporidian Pleistophora
hyphessobryconis on the basis of clinical signs, was investigated.
Although Pleistophora sp. spores were observed in a few cases,
laboratory results demonstrated that similar clinical signs were
generally caused by the pathogenic bacterium Flavobacterium columnare.
In all cases, muscle was the main target tissue, and the most
noticeable external signs were limited to fading of skin colouration
and the development of white areas of necrosis. Three isolates were
studied and typed by bacteriological tests and molecular techniques.
Although their phenotypic characteristics were in accordance with F.
columnare descriptions, except for higher optimal growth temperatures
(18–30 °C), they all appeared to differ genetically from common
European and American isolates and to be similar to Asian isolates
recently assigned to a new genomovar by Japanese workers. Experimental
infections suggested the isolates were highly virulent for ornamental
species. The use of polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and restriction
fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) for identification and detection
of the agent in tissue samples, and the implications of this finding
for health control management of imported fish and domestic species
are discussed.

From the article "Antimicrobial testing (Table 3) demonstrated
noticeable resistance to aminosides, polymyxin B and trimethoprim,
inconstant resistance to sulphonamides, and rather limited or
questionable susceptibility to tetracyclines and flumequine. These
results indicate very limited treatment possibilities for infected fish."

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

If it is this, or indeed NTD, I guess the only option is to boost the
fish's immune systems and ensure good water quality....from reading this
it sounds like it just affected Neons.....(or maybe I read this wrong).
I also seem to remember reading somewhere that the term NTD is often
used to account for mysterious deaths in Neon Tetras where other fish
are not affected....(this is not to say that there is not a parasitical
condition that is termed NTD)....

Hmmm....anyway 5 have hung in there for 36 hours - fingers crossed...

Gill

Fingers crossed for you...

The Flexibacter strain found in the neons was tested on mollies (at a
rather high bacterial load) and dropped all of them in under 48 hours.
It also genetically matched a strain isolated in Asian fish farms.

This article makes a couple of points. First, as you said, NTD is not
as common as retailers think. Only one batch of the four symptomatic
neons actually had NTD. Second, one cannot accurately diagnose fish by
symptoms alone. I also used it illustrate the fact that Flexibacter
infections do not always cause fuzz, even in small fish. Flexibacter
can cause a very wide variety of symptoms, including killing fish from
septicemia with no external signs.

I lost come new cardinals last fall, and I think it may have been this
syndrome. There was color loss, but it wiped out the fish like a
bacterial infection.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Neon tetras dropping like flies
 

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:36:31 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:

Huge snip leaving big void

out of the tank.....and there is an awful lot of water to chase them
across - I have problems netting tetras even in much smaller tanks.

The cross bar in big tanks. There's one in my 55. I have to stand on a
stepstool to reach into the bottom of the tank. A couple of days ago I
had to chase down 3 Serpae tetras. They knew exactly where that center
bar was and knew when they raced under it that I would have to switch
hands and raise the net over the bar and put it back down on the other
side and lose my balance on the step stool while they meanwhile
returned to their original position. I tried a net in each hand, one
on each side of the bar, my hands and my brain simply refused to
coordinate. I found it easier just to leave the net dangling and wait
for them to accidently swim into it. I'm retired. I have more time
that they do. The bristle nose was ****ed off at me for knocking him
off his favorite chunk of driftwood. The corys were heartbroken when I
tumbled their carefully constructed stone caves. The Angels were upset
when I mowed down their favorite stand of Vallisnaria. I seriously
considered recruiting one or two of my cats to have a go at it. This
never used to be so difficult. Next time I will plan better. Duct tape
my glasses to my nose so they won't keep sliding down. Tie my hair
back so it wouldn't fall in my face at the exact critical moment,
erect scaffolding so I won't fall off the step stool . . . maybe if I
stocked my tank with live plants and real driftwood and rocks and fake
fish . . . now there's an idea!

-- Mister Gardener

Neon tetras dropping like flies
 

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:55:27 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
.. .

My newsreader may have missed a post or two but as I understand it these
neon's were new fish you recently purchased. I don't remember you
mentioning you Q'd them.

Ah Ah Ahhhh! K*i L* caught you, Gill - shame shame on you!

-- Mister Gardener

Neon tetras dropping like flies
 

Mid posted.
Gill Passman wrote:
On a positive note I do still have 5 Neons...the missing one turned
up for his dinner...the remaining ones are feeding well. I have
managed to get the majority of the bodies out - maybe missed 1 or 2
max....I'm a little worried about the Pandas and the Rainbows but
hopefully from my reading they are not quite as susceptible to this
as other fish can be...

Thanks guys....a little depressed about all this....

I'm sorry about your losses - I wish I could help. Off topic - my sister and
her boyfriend are VERY bummed, their cat just had to be put down because of
anti-freeze poisoning, either by accident (cat's like the taste of it) or
someone fed it to him on purpose (they live in a dangerous part of town and
their neighbors dislike them) and although somewhat irrelevant they are
further in the money hole now because of the animal emergency room costs.
Seems like these types of events are increasing in frequency exponentially,
again sorry for your losses and I mean that because for one thing your are
almost always the first here to share your condolences to anyone else here
for their own losses. I hope for the best for your survivors - good luck and
later!


Gill

Neon tetras dropping like flies
 

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:50:50 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:

Mr. Gardener wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:17:06 GMT, Altum
wrote:



I forgot the panda cories! This is probably Flavobacterium since it's
jumping species. It's possible that the shipment of neons got a little
bit of ammonia burn in the gills and its made them vulnerable. Neons
are really packed into those shipping bags! Since this is my "be
open-minded about MelaFix & PimaFix" week, I'd go with PimaFix either in
quarantine, or on the whole tank.


In my one grand experiment with Melafix, I used Pima at the same time,
according to label. I will never fully understand the difference
between the two, the label indicates that combining the two
essentially increases the power of Mela. Come to think of it, the
price of that stuff, and a 130 gallon tank for what is it, 7 days?

-- Mister Gardener

Thanks, you just answered my question on whether they could be used
together....been working today so have only just been able to start
trawling through all the great responses I've had on this :-)

Gill

If I had anywhere near the amount of gallons that you have, I would
purchase my Melafix in the higher concentrated and less costly Pond
preparation. In fact, the next time I have to buy any, hopefully
never, I will probably get the concentrated stuff. Maybe I'll inquire
if the stuff stores well over a long period of time.

-- Mister Gardener

Neon tetras dropping like flies
 

"netDenizen" wrote in message
.. .
Koi-Lo wrote:

=====================
I hope once this problem is past you can set aside at least one tank for
a quarantine tank and NEVER put new fish in your big tank without at
least 14 days in quarantine. For extra protection, Q them for 21 days.
Even a 10g tank off in a corner somewhere would work. Should you get
some kind of disease in that large tank it's going to be a nightmare to
sterilize everything.

My newsreader may have missed a post or two but as I understand it these
neon's were new fish you recently purchased. I don't remember you
mentioning you Q'd them.

That's telling them!

Gill's aquarium was new, iirc. Therefore it was a quarantine tank for the
few fish she started with.
===========================
In that case if any disease infects the MAIN tank then no more fish can be
added until the problem is solved and cured. This can be quite a job with a
large tank and treatment can be very expensive. It's a lot cheaper to treat
a 10g than a 55 or a 130g tank. You can also catch a fish easily in a 10g
for a scraping or individual care - not so in these larger tanks. It can
also take some time to solve the mystery making the large take itself
quarantined.

When I set up my two 55gs last October (they had been in storage for 2 or 3
years) I quarantined everything in two old 10g tanks before they went into
the 55s. All were treated with Quick-Cure just-in-case. Fortunately all
appeared healthy so Q only lasted 14 days for them.

But it's whatever works for the individual and their set-ups.......
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o