swarvegorilla wrote:
unfortunately I continue to disagree
not about your love of da malawi cichs but just your one way mentality
so don't take this as a flame on you but rather a nit pick on your
methods

OK, disagreement brings progress. It is natural to hold on to your
own opinions, especially based on your own expirience, so no problem
here.

1) most mums never learn to eat enough to not lose condition, at
most
they get little bits and pieces. Usually they get none.

Are we really talking about Malawi Mbuna? They have almost no problem
with feeding while breeding, maybe a little when breeding for the
first time. They may have some problems, though, when the main tank
is too overcrowded (I mean, less than 12-15 liters per adult fish).
But in such conditions you should not expect natural behavior.

At most they will peck a few specks
but I know of no species that can feed with a mouthful of eggs.

All of my Mbuna does that easily. I see it almost daily.
This is of course nothing comparing to agressive feeding
when not having eggs, but they surely feed enough.

The exception is if she is a tank all by herself.

And that's the one method which is preferred by Malawi hobbyists
community which I belong to. Small separate tanks for breeding
females. But
absolutely
no stripping!

by doing this not only do you need tanks matured ahead of time
but you need more tanks

More - yes. Matured - no. I just use water and filter media from
the main tank.

yes it is one method but it's hardly preferred by the whole community
that is just such a blatantly stupid ignorant thing to say
You cannot speak for a whole community.

I wrote "community which I belong to", meaning polish hobbyists and
breeders of malawi cichlids.

Especially not one of which I am a part
and I say strip and milk away if ya like
plenty more like me

Yeah, there are also plenty more who keep malawi and/or
taniganika cichlids with Pterophyllum scalare-s or Astronotus
ocellatus-es (believe me, I've seen it) in soft SA water.

Also, plenty people buy Haplochromis obliquidens as a Malawi
cichlid. So? What you say is: "Let's eat **** - those
thousands of flies cannot be possibly wrong!"

the point is this person has fry NOW.

So this thread does not really apply to him anymore.
This is about breeding in general now.

and who said the species was endagered?

Those of mine a

Labeotropheus fuelleborni:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/60937/summ

Maylandia estherae:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/61140/summ

Pseudotropheus flavus:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/61165/summ

Iodotropheus sprengerae:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/60944/summ

I mean christ what are you a sith lord?
Don't push your ignorant one way attitude on people and expect
everyone to
sit back and nod away

I did not expect to, neither shloud you. Those are just
different ways - I do not expect to pick the absolute best during
this discussion.

3) using fry savers as opposed to keeping the one or 2 that manage
to
survive hiding under rocks etc in the main tank does not weaken the
population. That is absurd. All it means is a couple of larger males
will survive.

As to only males surviving, this is deifinetely not true. And I am
not talking about using main tank to produce as much fry as
possible - I am talking about natural behavior.

so catching out the female (where for a new mum she will prob spit
eggs in
the net) and moving her to a new tank is natural.?

Yes - this is similar to the female's conduct in the lake,
i.e. hiding in less crowded and more safe places.

If you are going for numbers ya milk at 2 days and incubate

I prefer going for quality and natural habitat simulation.

As to natural behaviour..... unless they are F1 your kinda kidding
yourself.

Five of my species are F1, and one is WC.

how anyone could discount this method is amazing.

What I discount is only the stripping the female of
eggs or fry. And of course artifical incubating of eggs.

I did not say that separating fry is bad - as long as
the fry stays in the mommy's mouth as long as she
thinks it proper.

Are you feeling OK?

Perfectly so :-)

It also leads to healthier, larger females who breed more often due
to regaining condition quicker.

That's just another inconsequence. A female which has a chance to
keep the fry as long as is needed will be sure more healthy and
it's fry will be healthier. We are not talking about factory here!

That is just silly
many malawi mothers will hold until dangerously thin

Maybe you should look deeper into your methods then.
It may be something wrong with your tank in general
that prevents them keeping good health when breeding
in natural way.

worse she can be killed if you need to add back into the display in a
weakened state.

This is only true when you have no hiding places
and too few females per one male in each species.

This is what I mean about your attitude,
there is no one magical way.

Of course there is no one way. And I just think
that mine is BETTER, not the ONLY ONE :-)

Sometimes the females survival is more important than potential fry

Always, not sometimes!

granted it can be cool to sneak up on a nursery tank and try see the
bubs
out of mums mouth

To see them get back in is the best expirience :-)

but that can be achieved by throwing the mum in a frysaver.

OK, that's more I like it.

The fry being healthier is also complete bull
if I milk at 2 weeks and feed spirulina flake and baby brine shrimp

Mouthbreeding time cannot be stated as "always two weeks". It
depends on so many factors. The mum just knows better, don't
you understand?

those fry will have a higher survival rate, be larger and healthier
than
those that are held by a clucky mum for a month.

Larger - maybe. Healthier - not necessary.

You have to understand that higher survival rate is not
what evolution is about. Keeping 100% survivial rate
will lead to general weakening of the given species, and
of course you know it.

infact most people getting into africans start with all male so don't
talk
it down

And you think we - as aquarists - should encourage this?

can lead to a very problem free tank it can

Yes, if you have not enough knowledge.

your tank, your choices.
do the best by your fish and that don't mean pushing your methods like
a
religeon.

Oh God, am I really so? I just reccomend what I think is
best and proper, and so do you!

To denie someone the chance to raise up some fry just
because of your own issues is just.... stupid.

You just don't have to strip to raise fry. Is small breeding
tank so hard to get and keep?

Actually I was refering to your all '******* fish must die' attitude

Well, this is the one which I am really convinced to, but
only when it comes to Malawi cichlids. ALL MALAWI *******
FISH MUST DIE! DIE! DIIIIIE! :-)

People need to relax and have fun.

That's just stupid. Do you mean that having fun is impossible
while you keep at least SOME rules? Turn on CNN, every day
we see something stupid, bad or outrageous just because
someone "had fun".

Oh great, that explains it all.
suckled by CNN as a child.

You have to remember, I had no way of seeing CNN as a child,
I was born in the Red Zone in 1972 :-)

"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice
and
tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master
calls a
butterfly"

I don't expect you to understand this, no do I ask you to agree with
me.

In fact, I do understand. But this passage is about understanding
natural processes, and the common "point of view" philosophy.
I really don't see how this applies to our discussion.

Rules are there for a reason. Work out the reason and you can
accomplish
the same end without following them.

This is even more general, and - sadly - not always true.

Try tell discus breeders to kill all their hybrids and see
where that gets ya!

Hello? We were talking african cichlids here! Hello?

Discus are cichlids.
why not be outraged that people keep hybrids of them?
Because everyone else isn't already doing it?
Why polarize yourself into communitys like that.
A fish is a fish.

Yeah. So go plastics - you will leave so many problems
behind you :-)

Now flame me all ya want
Heard it all before
I mean crap Iv'e bred blood parrots
do your dam worst!
I'll still be here.

Of course I will still try to convince you. This is
what it's all about. You're still not lost :-)

Perhaps you could come hold my catfish while I give them their ovaprim
shots?

Believe me, I have better pleasures avaliable :-)

"Perhaps you could come hold my catfish" :-) speaking
about words out of context :-)

Katurk..... I hope you got something from those posts
people get a bit emotional over these issues

Look who's talking :-)

Malawi people can be quite full on

I don't know, never've been to Malawi myself :-)

Regards,

milc, 500L Malawi Mbuna Tank