behavioral question...

swarvegorilla wrote:
unfortunately I continue to disagree
not about your love of da malawi cichs but just your one way mentality
so don't take this as a flame on you but rather a nit pick on your
methods

OK, disagreement brings progress. It is natural to hold on to your
own opinions, especially based on your own expirience, so no problem
here.

1) most mums never learn to eat enough to not lose condition, at
most
they get little bits and pieces. Usually they get none.

Are we really talking about Malawi Mbuna? They have almost no problem
with feeding while breeding, maybe a little when breeding for the
first time. They may have some problems, though, when the main tank
is too overcrowded (I mean, less than 12-15 liters per adult fish).
But in such conditions you should not expect natural behavior.

At most they will peck a few specks
but I know of no species that can feed with a mouthful of eggs.

All of my Mbuna does that easily. I see it almost daily.
This is of course nothing comparing to agressive feeding
when not having eggs, but they surely feed enough.

The exception is if she is a tank all by herself.

And that's the one method which is preferred by Malawi hobbyists
community which I belong to. Small separate tanks for breeding
females. But
absolutely
no stripping!

by doing this not only do you need tanks matured ahead of time
but you need more tanks

More - yes. Matured - no. I just use water and filter media from
the main tank.

yes it is one method but it's hardly preferred by the whole community
that is just such a blatantly stupid ignorant thing to say
You cannot speak for a whole community.

I wrote "community which I belong to", meaning polish hobbyists and
breeders of malawi cichlids.

Especially not one of which I am a part
and I say strip and milk away if ya like
plenty more like me

Yeah, there are also plenty more who keep malawi and/or
taniganika cichlids with Pterophyllum scalare-s or Astronotus
ocellatus-es (believe me, I've seen it) in soft SA water.

Also, plenty people buy Haplochromis obliquidens as a Malawi
cichlid. So? What you say is: "Let's eat **** - those
thousands of flies cannot be possibly wrong!"

the point is this person has fry NOW.

So this thread does not really apply to him anymore.
This is about breeding in general now.

and who said the species was endagered?

Those of mine a

Labeotropheus fuelleborni:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/60937/summ

Maylandia estherae:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/61140/summ

Pseudotropheus flavus:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/61165/summ

Iodotropheus sprengerae:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/60944/summ

I mean christ what are you a sith lord?
Don't push your ignorant one way attitude on people and expect
everyone to
sit back and nod away

I did not expect to, neither shloud you. Those are just
different ways - I do not expect to pick the absolute best during
this discussion.

3) using fry savers as opposed to keeping the one or 2 that manage
to
survive hiding under rocks etc in the main tank does not weaken the
population. That is absurd. All it means is a couple of larger males
will survive.

As to only males surviving, this is deifinetely not true. And I am
not talking about using main tank to produce as much fry as
possible - I am talking about natural behavior.

so catching out the female (where for a new mum she will prob spit
eggs in
the net) and moving her to a new tank is natural.?

Yes - this is similar to the female's conduct in the lake,
i.e. hiding in less crowded and more safe places.

If you are going for numbers ya milk at 2 days and incubate

I prefer going for quality and natural habitat simulation.

As to natural behaviour..... unless they are F1 your kinda kidding
yourself.

Five of my species are F1, and one is WC.

how anyone could discount this method is amazing.

What I discount is only the stripping the female of
eggs or fry. And of course artifical incubating of eggs.

I did not say that separating fry is bad - as long as
the fry stays in the mommy's mouth as long as she
thinks it proper.

Are you feeling OK?

Perfectly so :-)

It also leads to healthier, larger females who breed more often due
to regaining condition quicker.

That's just another inconsequence. A female which has a chance to
keep the fry as long as is needed will be sure more healthy and
it's fry will be healthier. We are not talking about factory here!

That is just silly
many malawi mothers will hold until dangerously thin

Maybe you should look deeper into your methods then.
It may be something wrong with your tank in general
that prevents them keeping good health when breeding
in natural way.

worse she can be killed if you need to add back into the display in a
weakened state.

This is only true when you have no hiding places
and too few females per one male in each species.

This is what I mean about your attitude,
there is no one magical way.

Of course there is no one way. And I just think
that mine is BETTER, not the ONLY ONE :-)

Sometimes the females survival is more important than potential fry

Always, not sometimes!

granted it can be cool to sneak up on a nursery tank and try see the
bubs
out of mums mouth

To see them get back in is the best expirience :-)

but that can be achieved by throwing the mum in a frysaver.

OK, that's more I like it.

The fry being healthier is also complete bull
if I milk at 2 weeks and feed spirulina flake and baby brine shrimp

Mouthbreeding time cannot be stated as "always two weeks". It
depends on so many factors. The mum just knows better, don't
you understand?

those fry will have a higher survival rate, be larger and healthier
than
those that are held by a clucky mum for a month.

Larger - maybe. Healthier - not necessary.

You have to understand that higher survival rate is not
what evolution is about. Keeping 100% survivial rate
will lead to general weakening of the given species, and
of course you know it.

infact most people getting into africans start with all male so don't
talk
it down

And you think we - as aquarists - should encourage this?

can lead to a very problem free tank it can

Yes, if you have not enough knowledge.

your tank, your choices.
do the best by your fish and that don't mean pushing your methods like
a
religeon.

Oh God, am I really so? I just reccomend what I think is
best and proper, and so do you!

To denie someone the chance to raise up some fry just
because of your own issues is just.... stupid.

You just don't have to strip to raise fry. Is small breeding
tank so hard to get and keep?

Actually I was refering to your all '******* fish must die' attitude

Well, this is the one which I am really convinced to, but
only when it comes to Malawi cichlids. ALL MALAWI *******
FISH MUST DIE! DIE! DIIIIIE! :-)

People need to relax and have fun.

That's just stupid. Do you mean that having fun is impossible
while you keep at least SOME rules? Turn on CNN, every day
we see something stupid, bad or outrageous just because
someone "had fun".

Oh great, that explains it all.
suckled by CNN as a child.

You have to remember, I had no way of seeing CNN as a child,
I was born in the Red Zone in 1972 :-)

"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice
and
tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master
calls a
butterfly"

I don't expect you to understand this, no do I ask you to agree with
me.

In fact, I do understand. But this passage is about understanding
natural processes, and the common "point of view" philosophy.
I really don't see how this applies to our discussion.

Rules are there for a reason. Work out the reason and you can
accomplish
the same end without following them.

This is even more general, and - sadly - not always true.

Try tell discus breeders to kill all their hybrids and see
where that gets ya!

Hello? We were talking african cichlids here! Hello?

Discus are cichlids.
why not be outraged that people keep hybrids of them?
Because everyone else isn't already doing it?
Why polarize yourself into communitys like that.
A fish is a fish.

Yeah. So go plastics - you will leave so many problems
behind you :-)

Now flame me all ya want
Heard it all before
I mean crap Iv'e bred blood parrots
do your dam worst!
I'll still be here.

Of course I will still try to convince you. This is
what it's all about. You're still not lost :-)

Perhaps you could come hold my catfish while I give them their ovaprim
shots?

Believe me, I have better pleasures avaliable :-)

"Perhaps you could come hold my catfish" :-) speaking
about words out of context :-)

Katurk..... I hope you got something from those posts
people get a bit emotional over these issues

Look who's talking :-)

Malawi people can be quite full on

I don't know, never've been to Malawi myself :-)

Regards,

milc, 500L Malawi Mbuna Tank

awesome, so happy for ya.
love a good circular arguement

considering these fish evolved from pretty much one or two ancestors
and hybrids are found naturally in the lakes
espec Lake Victoria when the waters a bit murky
I fail to see the problem.

explosive radial evolution really should enter a new phase in aquarists
tanks
whether thru hybrids or geographic isolation
Yes it is important to preserve bloodlines in the big picture
but when people flip out about what others do in their tanks
to their fish
it just steps over a line.

Now I apologise if I was a bit blunt before
god knows you Poles have had a pretty rough time of it
And those of you left were either somehow smarter or better at hiding.
so kudos to you and your kin for that
But such a narrow viewpoint is just..... frustrating.

how can milking fish create weak young?
the pack is still gonna thin the herd any chance it gets
cichlids are good at that
why not do your best to begin with the the largest amount possible?
I have lost valuable mouthfuls to things like small bits of shellgrit,
hungry mums or horny males that could have been so easily avoided.
as to natural there really is no way to simulate some of the female cichlids
behaviour in a tank
many migrate on mass to spit

the fact is they are pets
and aquarists are the least natural things to select survival
I mean we don't even see the same markings most of the time
due to different vision spectrums
we cull to aesthetics not too traits that help avoid predators
or gather foods
to the average joe
what does it matter which fry survive
and how can one tell a healthy adult fish from a 10mm baby?
aside from obvious twin tails and curved spines anyway.

In all my time I have never seen any change in parenting ability
of fry depending on whether they were milked or spat
it's genetic not learned

yes if your whole mission is to create a biotype
to try 'study' your pets
then go for it
but if you just want to breed some of your pets then
milking offers a very easy alternative
that can be done with virtually no effort

using a pop top bottle to squirt water from the aquarium
into a fishes mouth and flush the fry out
into a bucket of aquarium water
takes 2 seconds, and 24 hours later the mother is swimming around normal

some fish are less suitable than others
my electric yellows I allow to go el 'natural as I get better results
but the rest face the squirt bottle.
I have been so successful with this method
that it deserves a bit of defence on my part.

I enjoy breeding fish
I enjoy having tanks of fry greet when I get home
If I have to use vet administered hormone injections to spawn catfish
that would normally need to school in the hundreds to trigger a spawn
I do it.
If I need to hang a light bulb 24 hours a day over baby clowns to stop them
battering themselves on tank walls I do it.
If I need to give rainbows 4 morning periods every 24 hours to cover my mops
in eggs I do it.

Those that choose to not, are welcome to not.
but theres no need to restrict yourself to one way
and no reason to parrot the same old same old
this hobby has enough weird rules and sayings that really don't help.

Mbuna for example crowd well
I defie anyone to prove that and overstocked over rocked tank full of mbuna
are unhappy if maintained well

I aslo fail to see how someone keeping a spawn of hybrids
can hurt anyone or any fish anywhere in the world.
Just irrational.

I also don't follow how producing quantity has anything to do with quality
and how a human can even pick quality 99% of the time.
A skilled aquarist can pump out quality and quantity with a good game plan.

Now I realise this conversation has no end point.
I also realise it probably looks to an outsider like a bitch session
But I ask you is it not better than the rest of the porno spam on here?

If only more people would have a convo.
You don't need to agree or disagree with anything
But we all learn from how others do things
otherwise I wouldn't be here wasting me time on usenet

as to whether it's worth milking common mbuna
whose holding skills are legendary
and breed just to spite you
I dunno
zebs, rustys and fullys are not going to die out anytime soon

On the other hand many big Utaka have ****house holding skills
and breeders of these do much better at milking
some mothers are prone to spitting early
or swallowing
and in these cases being able to milk
throw together a fry saver
and feed back up the mum
saves a hell of a lot of repeated dissappointment

A hybrid cichlid sporting it's vigour
makes the perfect tank cycler
and heck that rough mbuna cross may just well fit into a super aggro
south american display
that no other african could survive.

If I have learned one thing in life
it's that theres more than one way to skin a cat
translate that accross to picking up mines and it can save your life
translate it to fish, and it can lead to a stress free
and fun hobby
when we get set in our ways
we miss things.

If my comments are truely apprieciated by the purists here
I can just unsubscribe
I don't need to be right
I don't need to win
But I have had a lot of success breeding aquatic life
have thru trial and error or research or watching others
learnt many of the easier ways to do things

I have also had the satisfaction of flooding the market with the fry from my
favourite fish.
I have raised batches of hybrids to study them
to see something new to me
and learn how the traits are divided
At times I have tried to pass on things I have learnt
For to know is to teach
and to teach is to learn
many times these have caused feathers to rustle
so many times they blur to one.

there will always be new ways to do things
and always be people argueing about old ways that worked as well
the milking convo has gone on since
Egyptian mouthbrooders hit the scene
and that was a long long time ago
To say that any side has proved one method to be worse than the other
is silly
Its a see-saw

I say once you pass 20 tanks
you will be a milking convert
and then when ya go back to 1 tank
it will be a hard habit to break

as I said
circular convo with no end and no begining
just people with there own tanks doing what they want
ya can't make people do more frequent partial water changes
let alone kill their first spawn
all ya can do is educate them with your own experiences and let them choose
their own path

Takes all types and people like me
we stock shops
you breed **** fish no one buys them next time
you practise bad husbandry and the guy down the road makes you look bad
I like my fish alot
and I put the welfare of my charges above all else
If I thought milking was negatively effecting them
I would stop it straight away
But as it stands I am happy to defend milking/stripping


Swarvegorilla





PEACE FOREVER

swarvegorilla wrote:

I fail to see the problem.

It's just a matter of self-chosen principles. We chose
some principles and then we try to hold on to them
as close as it is possible, considering our personal
skills/money/needs of course.

Now I apologise if I was a bit blunt before
god knows you Poles have had a pretty rough time of it
And those of you left were either somehow smarter or better at hiding.

I think you are thinking about Balkan countries or
something, there was no such hard time in our country
in the seventies :-) We were just isolated, which
includes CNN :-)

the pack is still gonna thin the herd any chance it gets
cichlids are good at that

This is somehow good point.

using a pop top bottle to squirt water from the aquarium
into a fishes mouth and flush the fry out
into a bucket of aquarium water
takes 2 seconds, and 24 hours later the mother is swimming around
normal

Hmmm... you posted some nice passage before, something
about point of view... try the fish point of view during
the above procedure.

If I have to use vet administered hormone injections to spawn catfish
that would normally need to school in the hundreds to trigger a spawn
I do it.

Yeah, I heard about spawning catfish under higher water pressure too.

Mbuna for example crowd well
I defie anyone to prove that and overstocked over rocked tank full of
mbuna are unhappy if maintained well

Yes - maintained well. With proper filtration, proper water
changes, 0 mg NO2, up to 50 mg NO3. But a lots of those overcrowded
tanks are just fish soup, and owner just retrieves about 10 dead fish
monthly, thinking everything is OK, "BECAUSE THEY ARE SPAWNING,
SO THEY ARE HAPPY". In fact, this is a problem with Mbuna - they
spawn in almost all circumstances.

I also don't follow how producing quantity has anything to do with
quality

Hmmm. Ever had a swiss made watch? Ever seen an asian similar product?

Now I realise this conversation has no end point.

Of course, and it would not mean well if it had.

zebs, rustys and fullys are not going to die out anytime soon

Acc. to Red List, they are not endangered because there are
little left in the nature. The are vunerable, because they
are endemic to small territory, and because the flush time
of the Malawi lake is about 600 years. So some negative
influence, which would be a minor problem in Amazon for
example, would be fatal there.

If my comments are truely apprieciated by the purists here
I can just unsubscribe

You have to understand, that as your opinions are sometimes
unacceptable to me (for example, I would never skin a cat :-),
they are also valuable. Otherwise I would stop after first message.

ya can't make people do more frequent partial water changes

Yeah, but why should I stop trying?

But as it stands I am happy to defend milking/stripping

Hmmm, how close to porn can we get? :-)

Regards, milc, 500L Malawi Mbuna Tank

But as it stands I am happy to defend milking/stripping

Hmmm, how close to porn can we get? :-)


I thought my comment about young mums being prone to spitting or swallowing,
while pro's learnt to gargle full term was as close as was needed.


to keep it on fish....
there is nothing funnier than watching confused cichlid buffs try figure out
exactly what species they are looking at in my 'whose my mummy, whose my
daddy?' tank
heh heh
whether it's a crosstrartus or a frankenfish
the public loves to see something new
Just wish people would learn the magic of jellys
just so..... dam.... strange...?
Like keeping a bright blue beating heart in ya room
Love it.

Oh and 6 generations of mixed mongrel pretty much killed the whole hybrid
africans are sterile debate for me.
Did raise a few questions on the how different are they if they stay fertile
so well tho.
lots of weaker ones
but always one or 2 that seem to make it.


As to the Poles
ya WWII history.
Makes the sandpit seem...... kinda chilled out.
people suck
fish/cephs and jellys rule
for now anyway
the future belongs to the cephs and jellys
Muhahahahahahahahaha!!!

swarvegorilla wrote:
the future belongs to the cephs and jellys
Muhahahahahahahahaha!!!

No. The future belongs to people capable of
using computers. They will rule the world. And
they will be called "secretaries".

:-) It's something by Scott Adams/Dilbert, AFAIK.

Regards, milc, 500L Malawi Mbuna Tank

"Wojciech Milc / The Power Of Dreams" wrote in
message ...
swarvegorilla wrote:
the future belongs to the cephs and jellys
Muhahahahahahahahaha!!!

No. The future belongs to people capable of
using computers. They will rule the world. And
they will be called "secretaries".

:-) It's something by Scott Adams/Dilbert, AFAIK.



Hey dilbert rocks
but seriously the jellys are exploding and eating all the little fish
which means less big fish to eat the cephs
as the oceans warm our new masters will
arise from the depths
Hmmm.....
A secretary could problem help me with my period problem though
that or a spell check.

Dammit squid where are you!
hurry the frick up

swarvegorilla wrote:

Hey dilbert rocks
but seriously the jellys are exploding and eating all the little fish
which means less big fish to eat the cephs
as the oceans warm our new masters will
arise from the depths
Hmmm.....
A secretary could problem help me with my period problem though
that or a spell check.

Dammit squid where are you!
hurry the frick up

By the way - what the hell are you smoking there?

Must be really good stuff :-)

milc